An atheist loses faith

[ulunuhi]

http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,958558,00.html

--
Water is taught by thirst;
Land, by the oceans passed;
Transport, by throe;
Peace, by its battles told;
Love, by memorial mould;
Birds, by the snow.
Emily Dickinson

[Derek]

Thanks for the article,but imo the person who wrote it isn`t a true
atheist,more a pseudo atheist who hasn`t been enlightened yet

Derek
"ulunuhi" <nola...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2Gvya.8178$Io.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Dennis]

I do not believe there is proof God does not exist.

Can an atheist be sure a God does not exist (he may be playing hids and
seek) except by faith ?

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:baf4m5$puql6$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

Hey you..........;-)
"enlightenment" is a metaphysical term.

--
Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:baf4m5$puql6$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

Dennis,
You can`t prove something such as God "doesn`t" exist..but you can try to
prove something "does" exist!!!! so far I can find no evidence or devise any
logical argument to support the existence of a higher authority which people
refer to as almighty God!!!
In fact I think its fair to say he\it is conspicuous by his\it`s absence..
I believe that mankind is the highest authority in the Universe..whether its
an advanced race thousands of years ahead of us or even thousands of years
behind us,I believe mankind is tops..by mankind I mean genetically similar,
not necessarily looking like us

Derek

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:bafsrd$sgmqu$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

Hey yourself!!!! "enlightened"..thats not a metaphysical.term,.its simply
means shedding light,gaining knowledge,to free from superstition!!!!
"Pesky" Christians..always pinching something to help their failing
cause...... :))

Derek

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message
news:bahaoq$tfilc$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

Like the rector giving a lecture at the AA.
"This town has 85 pubs" he said, "and I haven't been in one of them".
Voice from the back: "Which one was that?"

Hi Derek.
Ever heard this definition? Atheist: Fighting a non-metaphysical non-entity.
But for your comfort, I am not a theist either. :-)
Go figure.....

Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com

--------------------

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:baho36$sbsgo$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I share you beliefs here but I consider me an agnostic.

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bahnef$tmjf9$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

Hi Dennis,
I think agnostic is a fair balance..prove it and I`ll believe it sounds Ok
to me too!!!
but as a confirmed atheist I think I`ve reached a stage in life where I
totally accept that death is just finality..the "Black Hole" as I call
it..no judgements,no fear of heaven or Hell, just live life with full effort
and gracefully accept that we have been lucky enough to have been born..I
think dying is just like falling asleep, but with no waking up!!!

Derek

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:baighj$3emc$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

LOL!!!!!...love the joke
I think you`ve reached enlightenment to or beyond the Agnostic point...am I
wrong? :))
I know you were once a man of the cloth and became disillusioned..but where
are you now?

Derek

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bai6ov$tbo9v$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

Yes, *beyond* the Agnostic label point. is right.

Where am I?
Still a man of the cloth, btw.
See if I can express my non-location in words.
My 'enlightenment' was a process of years and years struggling with basic
Christians beliefs. Many are the perils of a rebellious inmate, believe me.
Rocking the Titanics is not a day out on Bondi Beach for sure. Retaining
sanity, however, requires continuation of stumbling and falling on a path
one seems to be destined to follow.
Before this becomes an autobiography, I better show from example where I am
now. My heart jumped of inner joy while reading authors like Haynes,
theologians Kuitert, and Spong. They -there are others- brought to the
surface in words what often had been whirling inside me.

Where am I now? (Thanks for asking <g>)
A beam of inner light that shows that the bible is a reflection of ancient
attempts to make sense of the 'x-factor' of life. However, the horizon of
awareness has receded a little further. I now grasp how ancient and modern
mankind in its totality is doing just that. We are driven by irresistible
urge to make sense of the universal x-factor. Everything we say and do is
based on that principle.
The fatal mistake of Christianity is that it has declared the efforts of
creating order out of chaos historically true. It has poured these truths
in re-enforced concrete dogmas and thus manoeuvred itself into a prison like
edifice. Life's dynamic force has become a static self destruct.

Where am I?
I am not an outsider. I don't see myself as an insider either. A
participant perhaps? Isn't it a strange thing that I feel very comfortable
talking to and being with people from all walks of life? I participate in
Christian ngs, share with an eclectic Atheist like you, LOL, and I relate to
visions of many others here and elsewhere.
Yet...I cannot see any absolutes, anywhere, and that includes my very own
stance right now.

That's perhaps where I am.

Nowhere, and it feels damn good :-)

Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:baiuc2$9ccm$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I plan and live my life as if death is death.

Not being able to demonstrate there is no God matters not as far as I can
see except in "debates".

And of course an agnostic is more socially acceptable in religious
circles -----LOL.

All I can say that what is true to me is ALL religious gods I know of miss
the mark of a reality test.

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:baiu77$8p1c$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

Rien,
great answer thanks..I absolutely understand where you are coming from..
just a few points..surely one`s path is ones own choosing..many events, both
good and bad, can be controlled..many cannot be controlled..the
uncontrollable events often carry the question "why?"..it seems to be in the
nature of humans to ask "why?
"..I believe there is no "why" or "x" factor in uncontrollable
events..events are just interactions with other factors and have no inner
meaning of fate or control by a superior being\higher power.
I have also experienced the shutting out effect by ones family and friends,
when I openly announced my religious beliefs,but I came to realise that the
people who were shutting me out were really shallow in their views and
actions.My first marriage split as a direct result of my religious
beliefs,and the effects are still apparent even today..Having seemingly
moved along the entire religious path from being a Christian(in several of
its various forms) to paganism to agnostic and finally atheist I am now
completely at ease with my views and actions..I have read a couple of
articles by Spong..personally I feel he is one mixed up guy,but happily
selling a lot of books to earn his keep..nothing wrong in that ,by the
way...but he is effectively preaching his own interpretation of Christianity
and probably sees himself as a modern Martin Luther type..but the beauty of
life is as always in its diversity of thought and deed.
Like you I am "nowhere" and it feels damn good..my life's ambition is to
became famous as being the oldest man on the planet although I would settle
for second oldest!!!<g>.
When I closed the door on mysticism,I opened to door to life and everything
became sharp and focussed..its not easy keeping mysticism out,its everywhere
and its very easy to relax and let it creep back in to your life and let it
envelop you in its its warm cosy grip!!!
Perhaps your life,like mine, doesn`t need an "x" factor..you just haven`t
realised it yet <vbg>

Derek

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bajasm$ejem$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

Very true..an agnostic is more acceptable to society than an atheist!..its
the fear factor imo..you have to be very strong to be an atheist and
contrary to comic book stories..many people are afraid of strong people or
maybe just not comfortable with the idea of the finality of death!!!..

Derek

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bajqcl$iqsc$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

"".I believe there is no "why" or "x" factor in uncontrollable
events..events are just interactions with other factors and have no inner
meaning of fate or control by a superior being\higher power."

When I talk about that 'factor', I do not personalise it into a 'superior
being/higher power" at all.
The ancients did intuit 'something' and created "EL" which eventually became
JHWH, who in the early stages was not yet seen as a personal deity. As we
all know, much later 'it' became a 'he' pulling the strings from high up
there, making us earthlings subservient to his will.

Heretics like me begin to see the 'factor' not as an 'it', 'he' or -perish
the thought- 'she', <ducks> but first and foremost as the enigma 'me'! The
abyss in me merges with the abyss out there into an ever flowing,
undefinable nothing -for lack of a better word that could explain the
vision-. Shall we call it 'the river of life', dying and re-creating itself
day by day, until...?
I hasten to say that there is no abyss of course, nor can we find a flowing
river. They are like biblical myths, words pointing to the moon.:-)

Myth, mysticism, mate. You can't get away from it.

--
Rien, knowing that one day Derek will be beatified..

phea...@pheasantsnest.com

-------------

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:baki6k$om83$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

Doesn't Atheism require ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that there is no God? IMO that
takes quite a leap of faith;)

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:baki6k$om83$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I think what we need new spirituality term that includes all beliefs in a
after life.

On one end would be those who are so sure they place their hope on the after
death and on the other ends those who live in and for the now.

Of course most would be in the middle.

One group's slogan could be "live tomorrow by using today" and the other
"live today".

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bakieb$pb5r$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

You are describing the basis of "way" in Tao IMO.

It does not exist on it's own, but is more or less the interactive rules of
the universe.

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bakok5$pj8u$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

LOL...well I do agree that metaphoric "indefinable" prose is a
problem!!!!LOL..but you say "we can`t get away from mysticism"..not quite
true my friend..I live in a fairly remote area of Sherwood forest and on the
days we are at home there is zilch mysticism to be experienced and I rather
suspect that your habitat on the farm can give you similar
protection..mythical on the other hand is a whole different ball
game...Whether or not Robin Hood existed is a moot point since the myth had
little or no effect on the human race..on the other hand whether or not a
certain JC existed gave rise to two thousand years of persecutions and
fear...Since God\gods\higher authority figure are a man made phenomena
his\her\its existence is entirely coincidental with man`s psychosis of
having delusions of grandeur,regarding a spiritual existence after death, or
even worse belief in reincarnation!!!...like hey "you messed up this time
around go back and try again"...portraying God as an eternal whip cracking
masochist

Derek who knows true beauty(fication) is in the eyes of the beholder

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bakok5$pj8u$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

LOL..theoretically yes....isn`t everything in life theoretic..
actually "leap of faith" is an unknown to an atheist..its more a leap of
reality.
As my wife said to me" it takes a brave man to be an atheist"..religion is
easy.."you can just look up to the sky and babble when you`re in trouble!!"

Derek
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:D5oza.2488$jM5.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Derek]

My term is "self belief" :))

Derek
"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bal7jq$113en$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

I'm not sure you can do it on a line. Speaking for myself, I believe solidly
in reincarnation AND a Spirit World, and BECAUSE I believe that what happens
after death takes care of itself, my focus is on the Now. I bet I'm not
alone.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bal7jq$113en$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

The rant in the second part of your response has nothing to do with what I
said. (not to worry though).

When at the "Nest", or wherever, I know that I am creating a world
according to my own image and likeness, a myth. It is a description of 'the
factor' in words and actions :-)

Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com

--------------

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:balgqt$14bmc$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

Wow! Thanks Dennis.
A long time ago I read: "Zen and Christian, the Journey Between", by John
Dykstra Eusden.

Perhaps my subconscious has pushed some of that to the surface, huh?

--
Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com
-----------------------

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bal7vl$v9t9$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[ulunuhi]

nice post Rien. and an opportune time to change my tag line :-)

--
!Xabbu shook his head. "I do not mean that at all, Renie. It is hard to
express, I suppose it is that the more things I read about the discoveries
of scientists, the more I respect what my people already know. They have not
come to these understandings in the same ways, in closed laboratories and
with the help of thinking machines, but there is something to be said for a
million years of trial and error--especially in the swamps of the Kalahari
Desert, where instead of just spoiling an experiment, a mistake is likely to
kill you."
Otherland -- Tad Williams

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bakok5$pj8u$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[ulunuhi]

:-)

--
!Xabbu shook his head. "I do not mean that at all, Renie. It is hard to
express, I suppose it is that the more things I read about the discoveries
of scientists, the more I respect what my people already know. They have not
come to these understandings in the same ways, in closed laboratories and
with the help of thinking machines, but there is something to be said for a
million years of trial and error--especially in the swamps of the Kalahari
Desert, where instead of just spoiling an experiment, a mistake is likely to
kill you."
Otherland -- Tad Williams

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:xDsza.3381$0E2.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Dennis]

IMO that puts you on the line for it limits you liability for an error made
today changing you future forever.

Example if you had a terminal disease were in pain and destroying your
family it would make it easier for you to take yourself out.

A Christian with a God to send them to hell would simply never do it.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
news:xDsza.3381$0E2.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Dennis]

:-)

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:balrm7$15tbi$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Scheherazade]

Depression sends you there whether you are Christian or not.
--

Krystal
-----------
Ohm Namah Shivaya

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:baltgu$191no$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Eve]

Ah dear !Xabbu - Did you read those books???

I thought they were fabulous!!

Eve

"ulunuhi" <nola...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:uruza.13744$Io.11...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Rien]

..and that's for sure.

--
Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com

----------
"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:baluu9$16ida$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

Religion makes a distinction between this life's hell and the next life's
hell.

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:baluu9$16ida$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

LOL...rant?.."one man`s rant is another man`s reality"
.but sorry if I went off subject,I tend to dispel mysticism automatically
these days by re-introducing reality

Myth is basically a unproven event that most likely didn`t happen,usually
compounded by the passing of time and the machinations of Hollywood :))

Derek who prefers the reality of his self built nest to the unreality of the
mythical "X" factor..

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:balrdj$16pap$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

Ok, wanna join me for few???
I have them 'warm' ok?
--
Rien.
phea...@pheasantsnest.com

------
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:ban3hk$1gmpm$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Scheherazade]

What I meant when I wrote that was that depression sends you to the brink of suicide and sometimes over it. But I know firsthand
that depression also sends you to hell on earth as well. I just flat don't believe there is a hell in the next life. But like
everything else in the next life, absolutely nobody knows anything for sure.

--

Krystal
-----------
Ohm Namah Shivaya

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:bamdnl$1c7lo$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

Do you see depression having any value ?

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:banb9t$1f9hq$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

That depends on what we mean when we use the word. Some people call it
depression when they're having a few days down in the dumps. Sometimes those
reflective moods can have value, even if it's only to contrast the "high"
days. But true clinical depression is a terrible thing, with no value I can
think of.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bankq2$1jh3c$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[ulunuhi]

indeed they are :-)

--
!Xabbu shook his head. "I do not mean that at all, Renie. It is hard to
express, I suppose it is that the more things I read about the discoveries
of scientists, the more I respect what my people already know. They have not
come to these understandings in the same ways, in closed laboratories and
with the help of thinking machines, but there is something to be said for a
million years of trial and error--especially in the swamps of the Kalahari
Desert, where instead of just spoiling an experiment, a mistake is likely to
kill you."
Otherland -- Tad Williams

"Eve" <eno...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bam0d3$1889t$1...@ID-10282.news.dfncis.de...

[Scheherazade]

Absolutely not. I never, ever want to go there again. I dread the thought that I might. For every sense of the word "life", I
consider depression incompatable with life.

--

Krystal
-----------
Ohm Namah Shivaya

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:bankq2$1jh3c$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

Maybe I have never experienced clinical depression so I don't actually
understand what it is.

My "depressions" always have a sources I can identify, so I can once I
understand it I have the opportunity to interferer to stop it.

I just see it as telling me something is wrong. It's 'a call to action" for
me.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:HqKza.9914$eo1.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Dennis]

Wow, What was it like ?

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:baoe4a$1uefh$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Scheherazade]

Like being lost in a black cloud. Every thought, every plan, every course of action seemed to lead to despair. I would sit around,
almost unable to move and try so hard to break out, to find out what was wrong. The only answer I could see was that everything was
wrong. I would just sit and cry at nothing in particular for hours. I couldn't get my mind free of it. Mentally, it just hurt so
much. I lost any feeling of being alive.

Just thinking about it I am scaring myself. There is no good at all that can come out of that. It is the closest thing to Hell
that I know. And to tell you the truth, I really have no idea -- at all -- why I just didn't end it. There must have been
something else inside of me that saved me somehow. I thank the Goddess every day that I am here, alive.

--

Krystal
-----------
Ohm Namah Shivaya

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:bap19b$248g4$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

As Dumbo famously said "I`m all ears"
so here I am eagerly waiting :))

Derek
"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:ban67t$1hgv3$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

:))..well done Krystal
But imo...It was your own self motivated awareness that saved you and it was
yourself that put you in that situation in the first place!!!!..deride and
thank yourself ,not some mythical non active higher authority..

Derek who constantly experiences the power of self belief... not mysticism

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bapvum$2atsn$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Cyra]

((((((((Krystal)))))))))

--
Cyra
annexcafe.nascar - Assistant
annexcafe.religion.thegrove - Manager
http://www.thesacredgrove.com

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bapvum$2atsn$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

My Mom took three attempts at suicide. Luckily she failed.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bapvum$2atsn$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

Clinical depression has no source, that's the problem. You can't "do"
anything to make it go away, because there's nothing behind it, only body
chemistry. A famous sufferer (English, so you won't have heard of him but
for Rosie and mike I'm referring to Claire Rayner's husband) was quoted as
saying that he woke up one morning and the sky had fallen in.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bap0hp$263db$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

It's not a question of mysticism, it's brain chemistry. What causes THAT to
go AWOL is open to debate.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:baq36n$2cfp3$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

(((((((Krystal)))))

I am glad you made it back,,,,

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bapvum$2atsn$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

It's been said that all phobias are really just one thing --apparent loss of
control.

Could all depression also be one thing, but the degree and details make it
appear different.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:vm2Aa.570$ik4....@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Chovhani]

Loss of control is absolutely the central issue, yes. That is exactly how my
Mom explained it. Like she had no control over anything, not even her
emotions. She knew, logically, that life was good, but she couldn't find her
joy. She couldn't find any reason to go on, even though her intellect told
her there was plenty. You can't use logic to solve depression, you see. With
the Post Partum Syndrome Moms that I worked with it was stranger yet. They
knew for CERTAIN something wonderful had happened (new baby) and the
commonest comment was "I know I ought to be happy, but I just want to die".
At some point a black curtain descended over their lives, and no amount of
knowing it was wrong could change it. PPS often includes agrophobia. A
healthy new Mom wants to take her baby for walk, a PPS Mom shuts herself
away.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:baqff4$2bimh$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[ulunuhi]

{{{{Krystal}}}}}

--
!Xabbu shook his head. "I do not mean that at all, Renie. It is hard to
express, I suppose it is that the more things I read about the discoveries
of scientists, the more I respect what my people already know. They have not
come to these understandings in the same ways, in closed laboratories and
with the help of thinking machines, but there is something to be said for a
million years of trial and error--especially in the swamps of the Kalahari
Desert, where instead of just spoiling an experiment, a mistake is likely to
kill you."
Otherland -- Tad Williams

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bapvum$2atsn$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I am still uncertain above "real" loss of control and "apparent" loss of
control. I understand that one's chemistry can cause feelings, for at times
I get kind of weird, but I am not convinced that the mind can not find a way
to deal with it.

This may be because I have never been there, but then again ---maybe--- I am
not there because I refuse to give up control and 100% refuse to be a
victim.

Dennis (who knows he has never been in despair)

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:Ys3Aa.86$ME.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Derek]

I was really referring to her final remark

" I thank the Goddess every day that I am here, alive"

Derek

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:vm2Aa.570$ik4....@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Chovhani]

When you feel that grateful you have to thank something.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:basg5o$32kar$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

so?..why not thank yourself?

Derek
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:5cnAa.1426$ik4.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Pastor Brent]

No Mel, actually atheism doesn't require anything of the sort, and
you're right, that would require a lot of faith. It is not that
atheists believe in the non-existence of god, it is that atheists do
not believe in the existence of god. The difference between these two
concepts is like night and day. Any atheist who believes in the
nonexistence of god is just as irrational as a theist who believes in
the existence of god. The best any atheist (any good atheist, who
isn't merely an anti-theist hiding amongst our number) can ever say is
that, as far as he knows, god's existence has not yet been proven to
his satisfaction.

No good atheist can say that god doesn't exist, merely that god's
existence hasn't been proven. That is very different from agnostics,
who POSITIVELY ASSERT that god does, in fact, exist, but that they
personally do not know anything about him/it/them.

PB

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message news:<D5oza.2488$jM5.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Doesn't Atheism require ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that there is no God? IMO that
> takes quite a leap of faith;)

>
> --
> Melanie
> It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall
>
>
> "Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > "Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:baiuc2$9ccm$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > LOL!!!!!...love the joke
> > > > I think you`ve reached enlightenment to or beyond the Agnostic
> point...am
> I
> > > > wrong? :))
> > > > I know you were once a man of the cloth and became disillusioned..but
> where
> > > > are you now?
> > > >
> > > > Derek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bai6ov$tbo9v$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > Like the rector giving a lecture at the AA.
> > > > > "This town has 85 pubs" he said, "and I haven't been in one of
> them".
> > > > > Voice from the back: "Which one was that?"
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Derek.
> > > > > Ever heard this definition? Atheist: Fighting a non-metaphysical
> non-entity.
> > > > > But for your comfort, I am not a theist either. :-)
> > > > > Go figure.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Rien.
> > > > > phea...@pheasantsnest.com
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------

> > > > > "Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:baho36$sbsgo$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > Hey yourself!!!! "enlightened"..thats not a
> metaphysical.term,.its
> simply
> > > > > > means shedding light,gaining knowledge,to free from
> superstition!!!!
> > > > > > "Pesky" Christians..always pinching something to help their
> failing
> > > > > > cause...... :))
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Derek
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bahaoq$tfilc$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > Hey you..........;-)
> > > > > > > "enlightenment" is a metaphysical term.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Rien.
> > > > > > > phea...@pheasantsnest.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >

[Dennis]

"god's existence has not yet been proven to his satisfaction."

If one defines god as a separate being then by this definition I am an
atheist, but I am not sure this is a universal accepted definition.

Dennis (who would say the lack of proof builds a strong case and is
overwhelming, but not beyond "possible" doubt)

"Pastor Brent" <pasto...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:b01ae812.03052...@posting.google.com...

[Derek]

Hi PB,
I don`t think you can actually put Atheists in little boxes anymore than you
can with ,for example, a Christian...IMO anyone proclaiming themselves to be
an atheist may have arrived at that point via several diverse routes..the
way a person is brought up seems to give a starting point of religious
belief for many people" belief" being an open word in this instance..one
then progresses either quickly or slowly over a period of time and much
thought, to reach what was ,at least for me, a definite conclusion about
god\gods or in my case the lack of god\gods.
where religion is concerned I feel rational or irrational are moot points
regards
Derek

"Pastor Brent" <pasto...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:b01ae812.03052...@posting.google.com...

[Chovhani]

How very boring. No, sorry, just doesn't work for me. When I'm that grateful
I want to thank the WHOLE thing, not one tiny part of it.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bau2ut$3lekm$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

There are plenty who'd disagree with you. Take a look at
http://www.infidels.org for starters. These guys have an entire website
devoted to proving there is no God.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Pastor Brent" <pasto...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:b01ae812.03052...@posting.google.com...

[Chovhani]

It is VERY difficult for someone who has never suffered depression (or been
close to someone who has) to understand exactly what it is all about. The
very reason you are ABLE to refuse is that you have never LOST that control,
does that make sense? When it happens, it isn't optional. There are
certainly some people who are able who are able to reach into their
"reserves" and find a way out of the abyss, but they are few and far
between. Most people require outside help of some sort. Where it gets muddy
is the whole issue of whether non-chemical remedies can solve this chemical
problem. Clearly sometimes they can, and mild depression (usually with an
obvious "cause") can usually be fixed with exercise, meditation, counselling
etc, and dietary changes help. But when it is "clinical" (severe, with no
obvious environmental cause, and apparently due to a malfunction of brain
chemistry) these measures are rarely enough. I have seen the end results of
failed attempts to treat severe depression with non-drug therapies. The end
result is most often alcoholism or suicide.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:barhg9$27h2t$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I agree I may not understand because I have never been there.

I will say this thought everyone I know who has been there has similar
characteristics.

Could be these are a result but then again maybe not.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:v61Ba.3295$ik4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Dennis]

I understand the artist thanks the paint and the model also, but also knows
the extent of their own area of influence and control.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:RU0Ba.3291$ik4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Chovhani]

It's funny you know Dennis, because on the one hand, as a practising Witch,
I get derided for having the audacity to think I can change things by some
arcane power, and then I'm told to thank myself for my achievements:)

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb2b18$4u7a3$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

Maybe there is a pattern, I don't know - maybe a personality type or
whatever. There is an obvious genetic factor.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb2ap0$52up2$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

if you don`t love yourself you can`t love anyone...if you can`t praise your
own efforts..you are nothing..
but by all means delude yourself...after all its your life :))

Derek
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:RU0Ba.3291$ik4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Dennis]

IMO there is a vast difference between feeling one can make a Goddess do
one's bidding and knowing the rules of the universe to do things as a 21st
century Witch.

BTW have you seen the movie Thinner ? In it a gypsy puts a curse on a guy
(to loss weight) and the guy sends his own 21 century curse on to the
gypsies (a killer with a gun who sets them up).

They were both curses and both equally effective.

Dennis (who still remember being told about the "evil eye curse" that a
woman matriarch could do)

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:_39Ba.3549$ik4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Dennis]

I don't think this is what she is talking about self love. I think she is
talking about giving credit for **some** achievements to the right person.

In my case I am very proud of me yet I know I had help from my parents,
family, teachers, mentors, friends, enemies (great motivators), etc. In
being proud of me I am honoring them the best way possible.

I know I do the sorting/filtering/deciding but I also know I not alone in
any of my decisions for all these people speak my truth so to speak.

Dennis(who knows being humble in one's own eyes can be a trap)

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb38os$5esn0$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I am reading a book that indicates there may be a left brain right brain
activity connection and some of this can be controlled.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:459Ba.3550$ik4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Rien]

Is this a silly question?

How is it possible to deny the existence of a non existing entity?

--
Rien.
www.pheasantsnest.com
--------------

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb1ol1$4ohvb$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

IMO it's like Santa Claus. Does he live in spirit in many of rest of us or
not sort of thing.

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bb4pb8$5ou9h$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Eve]

Hiya PB,

These are creative definitions I have not heard before. I think you just
redefined atheists as agnostics, and agnostics as theists.

Good to see you're still around!

Eve

"Pastor Brent" <pasto...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:b01ae812.03052...@posting.google.com...

[Derek]

I don`t...you do!!!..since God does not exist to me but does exist to
you,the emphasis is on you to prove the existence of God to me,not on me to
prove it doesn`t exist to you!!!!!

Derek
"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bb4pb8$5ou9h$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

I do???
Where did you get that idea from?

Another silly question:
*what* *who* does not exist to you?

However, just for the sake of the argument, say that I do believe in a
personal God up there.When asked why I do so, I am willing and able to say
why I believe so. Is it unreasonable to ask you why you do not believe it?

--
Rien.
www.pheasantsnest.com

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb5peq$61e19$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

Well for starters he never replied to my letter :))

Letter to Almighty God,

Dear God,

I shall address this letter to...The Internet.or everywhere.....because I do
not know your private address.I know its suppose to be heaven,but that`s so
vague:... where is heaven?
Earlier generations thought it was above the clouds,but in this age of
aeroplanes and spacecraft we have been above the clouds.Sometimes Hell was
found there ,but never heaven.
Also the mail services are so slow these days here in England that it would
take ages for a letter to get from Sherwood Forest to Heaven....Considering
that YOU if YOU exist are omnipresent The Internet or everywhere seemed to
be the best address...sorry I don`t know your E-Mail address.
If You do not exist I can hardly ask you to make your non existance clear by
some signal.But,after all,those who believe in You may be right and I may be
wrong,If you do exist my disbelief would not be the first mistake in my
life,nor would it be.the last one.....I Hope
And it would not ,I respectfully submit,really be my mistake.Since it is
open to You to make me a devout believer,the responsibility would be Yours
May I respectfully advise you to do the following

First....Please put your divine foot down and order a little more restraint
and common sense among your believers. Tell them to stop fighting one
another with all the ferocity and wickedness at their command and blaming it
on You.
Make it clear that they must bear the responsibility for their own misdeeds
and cannot commit endless evil including mass murder,in Your name(as given
in the various Holy scriptures).point out to them that slaughtering people
in the name of universal love is not logical.
Secondly..Be more scrutable and fathomable...I mean be less inscrutable and
unfathomable.
Tell your followers to stop proclaiming that floods ,famines fires
,earthquakes,plagues,erupting volcanoes,storms and millions of children
dying of starvation and disease are all the results of your infinite
goodness,and if people fail to understand this it`s because your ways are
unfathomable.
To my small mind sufficient food,shelter ,warmth,good health and the love of
our fellow creatures....are all good things..while starving,drowning,burning
to death are not so good...So be a little more fathomable..please
Thirdly..Give us a clear sign of your existence ...How about a few miracles?
How is it that so many occurred in primitive times and none occurs nowadays?
May I respectfully suggest you perform just a few miracles before a
committee composed of selected members of The Royal Society,The Faculty of
Yale or similar acedemic groups...It would be easy for you,and it would
settle age-long debates once and for all
Or how about sending us a second Son of Yours....cause another lady to
conceive immaculately...I know its more difficult to find a virgin these
days than it used to be,but You are omnipotent,so You could do it,(I admit
that an age difference of two thousand years between brothers is unusual but
Your family..with all respect, is an unusual family).
True I admit this would change the Holy Trinity into a Holy Quaternity,but
would that matter.?...It would be childs play for your theologians to
explain that four of you are really only one...It could be this younger son
of yours who did the new and scientifically supervised miracles.He could
bring messages from you, and do whatever he and You deemed fit..

But one thing I beg of You: do not let him save us. If this is what his
brother did....then this son must leave us unsaved. And happy. Or at least
a little more human
Until I see these modest requests fulfilled

I remain

Yours faithlessly

Derek

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bb5urp$62ngr$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

LOL

--
Rien.
www.pheasantsnest.com

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb5c0i$62i31$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Rien]

Can see what you mean now...

One question remains though.
Now you have done away with the deity of the Theists, is there absolutely
nothing unexplainable in life? Is existence fully transparent for you? In
other words, and I hate to put this to you, but since you left me now
choice, :-), are you omniscient of some sort?

--
Rien.
www.pheasantsnest.com

-----------

--------------
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb6qd3$6d95n$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

"'Yours faithlessly"-------LOL

BTW I see you classify God as a politican.

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb6qd3$6d95n$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

Who says I don't love myself or praise my own efforts?

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb38os$5esn0$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

That's certainly part of it, the whole "no man is an island" thing. There's
no way I can take the credit for everything good that happens to me. I can't
think of anything more delusional than that, LOL! I do my share, and then
beyond that there is "luck", "good fortune", the imput of other people,
random events, natural phenomena, etc. That's why people thank their "lucky
stars" or "the fates". But you must understand that Derek comes from the
Danelaw, and Cnut thought he could turn back the tide. They're a bit full of
it those Danes:)

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb3c5t$5h9hc$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

I fend off curses all the time:) For me the bottom line is this - it is
possible (in theory) for humans to perform feats of psychokinesis etc, but
(big but) we aren't very good at it. Witches aim to get better at it. It's
not like on Harry Potter (more's the pity). We are talking about the "laws"
of the Universe here. As I see the Goddess as a manifestation of the
Universe (and all its contents, phenomena etc), it would be quite natural to
"Thank the Goddess". It's also a figure of speech. Sometimes I thank The
Moon, sometimes I thank the Universe....depends. All I can state is that I
don't get anything out of thanking myself. I don't have self-esteem issues,
so it's a sort of given that I appreciate myself, I don't bother with all
that stuff.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb3a54$5fnan$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

"Some of" being the thing. Until we learn how to FULLY control our own brain
chemistry we will need some kind of medication to improve the quality of
life for a number of people.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb4c1r$5fu3d$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

"omniscient".moi?...LOL..I should be so lucky....my philosophy is ultimate
simplicity..when you die everything fades and then goes black...and remains
black..the ultimate darkness...job done!!!!
We are no different to any other creatures experiencing life here on this
planet, our main occupation is to be alive and try to enjoy and prolong our
existence for as long as possible..after that..""nothing""..actually why
should there be anything after death?...our big disadvantage as human beings
is we are able to think and try to understand things like dying..and then
think we know everything and because of that we assume we should live on in
another world after we die here..how arrogant of us!!!!

Derek

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bb74dp$63sro$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

well to be fair if he ever existed he would have to be a politician :))

Derek
"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb7fnd$6g4gi$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

well if you do then as you said" how boring"...are you Boring Mel <vbg>

Derek
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:bPHBa.6505$y77.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Chovhani]

I have many faults but I'm far too weird to be boring:)

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb81sd$6k3fh$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

LOL...

Derek
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:OzMBa.7186$y77.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Rien]

This reminds me of the Dutch comedian Toon Hermans.
In one of his sketches he told his audience about a priest preaching about
the 'hereafter.
He did it in such colourful language that it looked as if he had just
returned from a visit there.

In your case you are sounding as if you have gone through the process of
dying and found that, nope there is nothing.

In other words, speculation is speculation, yes???

--
Rien.
www.pheasantsnest.com

-------------
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb81o0$6rhg5$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Chovhani]

Don't be silly dear, Derek knows EVERYTHING..........

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bb8ajq$6qnlc$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Dennis]

I agree and I also believe that attending to the "some of" is as important.

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:_nIBa.6533$y77.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Chovhani]

Oh yes. What's important is to offer what is needed. It's that simple.

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:bb8cfi$6rsf9$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

[Scheherazade]

Do you think we should pray to him? You know, like George Carlin prays to Joe Pesci? ;-)

--
Krystal
---------------
Time is Too slow for those who wait, Too swift for those who fear, Too long for those who grieve, Too short for those who rejoice.
But for those who love, time is not.
--- Henry Van Dyke

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message news:KhOBa.646$H67.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Rien]

I am almost there too...... almost....:-)

I love Derek. Honest.
--
Rien.
www.pheasantsnest.com

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:KhOBa.646$H67.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Chovhani]

Well he IS omnipotent:)

--
Melanie
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/melanie.boxall

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bb8e46$6sjr4$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...

[ulunuhi]

never boring I concur :-)
--
!Xabbu shook his head. "I do not mean that at all, Renie. It is hard to
express, I suppose it is that the more things I read about the discoveries
of scientists, the more I respect what my people already know. They have not
come to these understandings in the same ways, in closed laboratories and
with the help of thinking machines, but there is something to be said for a
million years of trial and error--especially in the swamps of the Kalahari
Desert, where instead of just spoiling an experiment, a mistake is likely to
kill you."
Otherland -- Tad Williams

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:OzMBa.7186$y77.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[ulunuhi]

"our big disadvantage as human beings is we are able to think and try to
understand things like dying"

I'd personally say it is arrogant to assume that non-human animals don't
think or understand things like dying (but then that is just me :-)

--
!Xabbu shook his head. "I do not mean that at all, Renie. It is hard to
express, I suppose it is that the more things I read about the discoveries
of scientists, the more I respect what my people already know. They have not
come to these understandings in the same ways, in closed laboratories and
with the help of thinking machines, but there is something to be said for a
million years of trial and error--especially in the swamps of the Kalahari
Desert, where instead of just spoiling an experiment, a mistake is likely to
kill you."
Otherland -- Tad Williams

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:bb81o0$6rhg5$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

more logic than speculation...all I can truthfully say is, everyone dies
alone..and I cannot find one single argument to convince myself that there
is a higher authority looking out for me or anyone else..when you die Rien
you just cease to exist along with all your bodily functions! nothing else
makes any sense ,well to me it doesn`t...I am the biological end product of
a single tadpole who swam along with millions of others and hit an egg and
fertilised it,grew into me via my mother host..
millions of other tadpoles died

Derek
"Rien" <phe...@peace.com> wrote in message

news:bb8ajq$6qnlc$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

[Derek]

LOL...I know your a fraud

Derek

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:KhOBa.646$H67.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[Derek]

you can pray to me with pleasure..but I can guarantee...nothing will come of
it :))

Derek

"Scheherazade" <kryst...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:bb8e46$6sjr4$1...@ID-27780.news.dfncis.de...