Gewissei

[Afr9]

Help! The Gewissei are giving me nightmares! They seem to be ruled by Cerdic,
Vortigern, and Eudaf Hen, they're British and Irish and Saxon, they're in North
Wales, South Wales, and in Winchester, they're a tribe, a kingdom, and
mercenaries. Who/what were they, and where do they fit in with british
history, especially in the period 400-450?

Thanks in advance,
Afr9

[Karl-Heinz Böttcher]

Well, they were all of it. Remember legendary Cerdic, supposedly founder of
Wessex, which even Bede does not name that way any earlier than 686 or so?
Cerdic is bearing a Celtic name, ruling a Saxon kingdom which also bears a
Celtic name. He was Celtic and managed to unite his Saxon and British-Celtic
inhabitants in the land of the Gewissei. I never heard about Vortigern ruling
them. Who says that? Vortigern was from the Gloucester area (according to the
genealogies) and later on became overlord over Britain. I think, it originally
means a British tribe, which was later on taken over by the English. Even the
genalogy of Cerdic hints to some British origin.
Regards
Kalle

[Afr9]

Geoffrey of Monmouth mentioned vortigern as "Dux Gewissei". If not him,
someone. My opinion on Cerdic for a long time is that he was the ruler of the
Winchester area (perhaps prince of the Belgae tribe), who marrieda Saxon and
brought Saxon mercenaries in to fight his civil wars for him. His child was
Creoda (the forgotten king!), and then Cynric, who both bear Celtic names.
After that, I believe, the names are Anglo-Saxon. My life would be simpler of
the Gewissei turned out to be the Winchester-area sect of the Belgae tribe, but
the other references make me wary. In particular, has anyone read "Journey to
Avalon," by two guys whose names I don't know? It's the one where Arthur is
identified as Arthwys ap Meurig. While I don't buy into their overall theory,
many of their individual ideas are appealing to me. Their whole section on
Vortigern and the Gewissei, though, is cryptic and entirley undecipherable to
me. has anyone read this book?
-Afr9 (alexander)

[MicahMc]

Afr9--

Be careful about relying too much on Wessex pedigrees, particularly with regard
to the Cerdic--Creoda--Cynric connection.

Early pedigrees of Wessex kings don't include Creoda. By all evidence, Creoda
is simply a genealogical placeholder, perhaps added by a ninth-century author
of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle who realized that the careers of Cerdic and Cynric
had them actively fighting in wars when they were in their 80s. He needed
another generation, so he probably just added the name of a Mercian king of the
sixth century whose name fit the alliterative match between Cerdic and Cynric.
Ironically, the Chronicles proper never mention Creoda....

[Tim Smith]

MicahMc wrote:
>

> Be careful about relying too much on Wessex pedigrees, particularly with regard
> to the Cerdic--Creoda--Cynric connection.
>
> Early pedigrees of Wessex kings don't include Creoda. By all evidence, Creoda
> is simply a genealogical placeholder,

Could he represent a different dynasty to Cerdic and Cynric? I seem to
recall that the smart money is on the West Saxon nation being an amalgm
of two tribes - Cerdic's people pushing north from the south coast and
Caelwin's advancing up the Thames Valley. If Creoda isn't the son of
Cerdic, could he be the father of Caewlin?

Just speculating,

Tim.

[MicahMc]

Hi Tim--

Your scenario is possible, but I think it unlikely...It seems like a
straighforward insertion.

I got the information I posted from a usenet article posted by Stewart Baldwin,
posted 2/9/96. He cites as his source K. Sisam, "Anglo-Saxon royal
genealogies", in Proceedings of the British Academy, vol. 39 (1953),
pp. 287-346. Baldwin calls it "required reading for those who really want to
understand
some of the processes by which early genealogies were faked." So I'd start
there if you can find the journal.

Or you can go to www.dejanews.com and look up Mr. Baldwin's post. Do a search
on the "old" rather than "current" database. I think you need to do one
preliminary (and fruitless) search on the current database before they give
you the option of searching the old database. Search for instances of "Cerdic"
and one of his supposed anscestors like "Benoc" or "Aluca." You should only
come up with a few articles that match. His post was in the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval.

Take care.

Mike

[MicahMc]

Excuse me...

My apologies. The information in the usenet article I referred to is
specifically regarding Cerdic's ancestry. It doesn't actually refer to his
"son" Creoda. It's true, though, that Creoda is a late addition who appears
only in the preface to the ASC, not in the ASC itself. I think that is also his
first appearance.

The speculation about the reasons for inserting Creoda are my own, but they
seem fairly obvious. If Cerdic and Cynric were both adults when they landed on
the Hampshire shore in 495 (logical if they are partners in conquest, as the
ASC makes them out to be), Cynric would surely be at least 18 and Cerdic, his
father, about 40. Cerdic is last fighting battles not long before he dies in
534, when he would be nearly 80. Cynric's last battle is in 557, when he would
be 80 years old--a practical impossibility back then. He died, according to the
ASC, in 560 at age 83.

Any reasonable chronicler who didn't consider Cerdic and Cynric superhuman
would probably have realized that he needed another generation. A Mercian king
from that time provides a nice name that's alliterative with Cerdic and Cynric,
more or less. Hence, Creoda.

Mike

[Tom Green]

>I got the information I posted from a usenet article posted by Stewart
Baldwin,
>posted 2/9/96. He cites as his source K. Sisam, "Anglo-Saxon royal
>genealogies", in Proceedings of the British Academy, vol. 39 (1953),
>pp. 287-346. Baldwin calls it "required reading for those who really want
to
>understand some of the processes by which early genealogies were faked." So
I'd start
>there if you can find the journal.

On genealogies in general, Sisam is a good place to start (it has recently
been reprinted by the British Academy) [pp.337-8 deal with Creoda]. The
following are also very useful however: D.N. Dumville "The Anglian
collection of royal genealogies and regnal lists" in _Anglo-Saxon
England_ 5 (1976) pp.23-50; D.N. Dumville "Kingship, genealogies and
regnal lists" in P.H. Sawyer and I.N. Wood (eds.) _Early Medieval
Kingship_ (Leeds 1977) and M. Miller "Royal pedigrees of the insular
Dark Ages: a progress report" in _History in Africa_ 7 (1980) pp.201-24.
With regards to Wessex, Dumville's "The West Saxon Genealogical
Regnal List and the chronology of Wessex" in _Peritia_4 (1985) pp.21-66
and his "The West Saxon Genealogical Regnal List:
manuscripts and texts" in _Anglia_ 104 (1986) pp.1-32 are, IMHO, well worth
a look. For Cerdic's historicity (or at least, that of the account of his
activities given in the ASC) see B.A.E. Yorke "The Jutes of Hampshire and
the origins of Wessex" in Steve Bassett (ed.) _The Origins of Anglo-Saxon
Kingdoms_ (Leicester U.P. 1989) pp.65-88 and her superb _Wessex in the
Early Middle Ages_ (Leicester U.P. 1995) [Bruce Eagles "The archaeological
evidence for settlement in the fifth to seventh centuries AD" in Mick Aston
and Carenza Lewis (eds.) _The Medieval Landscape of Wessex_ (Oxbow Monograph
46, Oxford 1994) pp.13-32 is also very good] -- the earliest material in the
Chronicle was extensively manipulated in the 9th-century (and earlier) by
the rulers [cf. Janet Nelson's "Reconstructing a royal family: reflections
on Alfred, from Asser, chapter 2" in I.N. Wood and N. Lund (ed.) _People and
Places in Northern Europe 500-1600_ (1991)].

Regards,

Tom Green,
Oxford.

[exeter.ox.ac.uk]

I wrote:
>the earliest material in the
> Chronicle was extensively manipulated in the 9th-century (and earlier) by
> the rulers [cf. Janet Nelson's "Reconstructing a royal family: reflections
> on Alfred, from Asser, chapter 2" in I.N. Wood and N. Lund (ed.) _People and
> Places in Northern Europe 500-1600_ (1991)].

The following should also be looked at in this regard: A. Scharer "The writing of
history at King Alfred's court" in _Early Medieval Europe_ 5.2 (1996) pp.177-206
which deals quite extensively with the 9th-century contexts of the Cerdic et al
material at pp.177-185.

Tom Green,
Oxford.

[PFJTurner]

The Gewissei seem so elusive because it is a Welsh national name derived the
Latin _venta_, from earlier Celtic meaning "marketplace." It appears in Venta
Silurum (Caerwent), from whence comes the geographic name "Gwent." It also
appears in Venta Belgarum (Winchester) and Venta Icenorum (Caistor-by-Norwich).

Interestingly, this place name also finds the equally elusive Creoda. In the
form "Crida," he appears in the Mercian king-list. He also appears in the East
Anglia king-list as "Cretta Vinting," the second name meaning "from Venta," in
reference to Venta Icenorum.

-PFJT

[brian...@googlemail.com]

On Friday, 30 January 1998 08:00:00 UTC, Afr9 wrote:
> Help! The Gewissei are giving me nightmares! They seem to be ruled by Cerdic, Vortigern, and Eudaf Hen, they're British and Irish and Saxon, they're in North Wales, South Wales, and in Winchester, they're a tribe, a kingdom, and mercenaries. Who/what were they, and where do they fit in with british history, especially in the period 400-450?Thanks in advance,Afr9

This answer is a bit late, but if you are still around the answer is that Eudaf Hen first ruled the region of Wales and the Borderlands that included a tribe that was then called the Brigantes (Hill people) of which the Gewissei would appear to have been part. Eudaf Hen was a Goedel (? People of the wood) as were many of the Irish immigrants who had settle th wider area of North Wales. As such Goedels could either have been Welsh or Irish the answer lies in his North Wales pedigree. In no way could they have been Saxon.....and here is the bit that you must not tell anyone else, particularly the people of Wessex, the Saxon Cerdic did not exist he was an uplift from the real Cerdic of the Gewissei of Central Wales used so as to add to King Alfred's C.V. or in his eyes this stolen pedigree for the Saxon of Wessex.Therein lies the secret of learning why the DARK AGE is termed such!

Promise you will not tell anyone else, we do not need historians commiting suicide!

[brian...@googlemail.com]

On Friday, 30 January 1998 08:00:00 UTC, Karl-Heinz Böttcher wrote:
> In article <19980130220...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, af...@aol.com (Afr9) wrote: >Help! The Gewissei are giving me nightmares! They seem to be ruled by Cerdic, >Vortigern, and Eudaf Hen, they're British and Irish and Saxon, they're in North >Wales, South Wales, and in Winchester, they're a tribe, a kingdom, and >mercenaries. Who/what were they, and where do they fit in with british >history, especially in the period 400-450?> >Thanks in advance,>Afr9 Well, they were all of it. Remember legendary Cerdic, supposedly founder of Wessex, which even Bede does not name that way any earlier than 686 or so? Cerdic is bearing a Celtic name, ruling a Saxon kingdom which also bears a Celtic name. He was Celtic and managed to unite his Saxon and British-Celtic inhabitants in the land of the Gewissei. I never heard about Vortigern ruling them. Who says that? Vortigern was from the Gloucester area (according to the genealogies) and later on became overlord over Britain. I think, it originally means a British tribe, which was later on taken over by the English. Even the genalogy of Cerdic hints to some British origin.Regards Kalle.

Chris Barber and David Pykitt wrote 'Journey to Avalon' which should be the first read for any novice who wants to dip into the murky waters of the distant past. They have not been properly recognised as stirring the mud in that pond of overgrown weed, which very much needed to be done as there are too many teaching history today who cannot think outside the box,or who are swimming happily in the murky pond. Do not believe half of what you read about Saxon History, Asser who wrote those Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, could not tell an Angle from a Saxon, but unfortunately he was a turncoat Welsh monk who had formerly been at the Monasrery in St David's Pembrokeshire;King Alfred enticed him to bring that knowledge with him so as to introduce the practice of keeping the Annales Cambriae (Welsh Angles) to Wessex as had been compiled and was continuing to be done at St David's, in order to give Wessex the same sort of history. Asser was not very healthy, nor apparently very bright, as he made a right mess of moving Welsh History to Saxon lands by introducing the figures in Welsh History to become characters in Wessex Folklore. God Rest His Soul! Bede on the other hand, a second generation Saxon, was a bit cleverer than Asser as his other half of the version of Saxon history has fooled more people for longer. May he too rest in Peace! However his history is being re-written!

[brian...@googlemail.com]

On Friday, 30 January 1998 08:00:00 UTC, Afr9 wrote: > Help! The Gewissei are giving me nightmares! They seem to be ruled by Cerdic, Vortigern, and Eudaf Hen, they're British and Irish and Saxon, they're in North Wales, South Wales, and in Winchester, they're a tribe, a kingdom, and mercenaries. Who/what were they, and where do they fit in with british history, especially in the period 400-450?

When one is confused you must turn around and guide all those other confused people following behind you, and it is a long queue, to the Yruth. It is a much longer journey to the truth than many people want to take, I have been at it for 15 years and there is still a long road ahead, but every corner that I turn I see the light shining brighter.The light has already begun shining of that which passesas Saxon History, but you will not be able to experience that bright sunshine until you have sampled some of the basdics of Welsh Tribal History and the Druids upon which all else builds. That is fact!

[brian...@googlemail.com]

[brian...@googlemail.com]

On Friday, 30 January 1998 08:00:00 UTC, Karl-Heinz Böttcher wrote:
> In article <19980130220...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, af...@aol.com (Afr9) wrote: >Help! The Gewissei are giving me nightmares! They seem to be ruled by Cerdic, >Vortigern, and Eudaf Hen, they're British and Irish and Saxon, they're in North >Wales, South Wales, and in Winchester, they're a tribe, a kingdom, and >mercenaries. Who/what were they, and where do they fit in with british >history, especially in the period 400-450?> >Thanks in advance,>Afr9 Well, they were all of it. Remember legendary Cerdic, supposedly founder of Wessex, which even Bede does not name that way any earlier than 686 or so? Cerdic is bearing a Celtic name, ruling a Saxon kingdom which also bears a Celtic name. He was Celtic and managed to unite his Saxon and British-Celtic inhabitants in the land of the Gewissei. I never heard about Vortigern ruling them. Who says that? Vortigern was from the Gloucester area (according to the genealogies) and later on became overlord over Britain. I think, it originally means a British tribe, which was later on taken over by the English. Even the genalogy of Cerdic hints to some British origin.Regards Kalle

History is, or rather should be, a time-line where the events of one oeriod link accurately to all events of the past and all upcoming events, in all directions. You have been unfortunate enough to attempt to understand the most cvonfused part of that which glibly is called BRITISH HISTORY' but you will not get to the truth by attempting to use Bede or the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as a foundation to the truth. When in a quandry... go back to basics and start at a different point. When you have completely understood Journey to Avalon' by Barber and Pykitt read also Keys to Avalon by Blake and Lloyd; neither book tells the full story as that cannot be done in books of that size as history is a continuing story. Fortunaely those two books cover the most interesting periods of history; BUT THERE IS MORE ... only you can choose which direction to look but those are the places to start! The questions posed within the coverages of both books will take you on a fascinating journey, take the easy route step by step....it will be the most interesting journey you will ever make if you have, as appears to be the case, an inqiusitive mind.! Enjoy the Journey.