Merlin - father was a demon?
Dan Owen
offspring of a nun and a succubus demon?
Just curious.
Dan
Bert Olton
Magical, spirit conception for Merlin? My vote is sometimes that works
well in fantasy novels and movies, but real world? He was a
bard/historian/advisor, whatever, very human and not actually tied to
Arthur except in Geoffrey's imagination.
Bert
--
To all who have served or are serving the cause of freedom, whether in
peace or in war, at home or abroad, thank you.
"Let's roll!" Todd Beamer, Flight 93, September 11, 2001.
TreetopAngel RN, BSN
"Dan Owen" <da...@powen20.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a689pt$l2q$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
I see Merlin as a person who was well connected with "science" and that is
where we get the idea he was a magician/sorcerer. He knew the art of
illusion and understood the workings of nature. Of course he seemed magical
to people who had never seen sleight -of-hand or chemistry.
TreeropAngel
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C.Clarke
John Greenall
historical person, who in his translated prophecy forsaw the coming of a
boer of cornawall that would basicly wage war against the saxons. and this
came true.
Ambrosius Aurelius is probably the best candidate for this, some may think
he was the original king arthur, but then it may be possible there may have
been an historical king arthur after ambrosius, but as for Ambrosius, he
certainly existed and did fight with some success against the saxons.
Arthur may have been historical, or just the stuff of myths and stories, but
Ambrosius certainly did exist., I would not put too much faith in the
arthuian legends, my own opinion is that they are largely based on Ambrosius
Aurelius, but that is just my opinion.
--
John
________________________________________
http://www.btinternet.com/~john.greenall
"Dan Owen" <da...@powen20.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a689pt$l2q$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Christopher Gwinn
> I see Merlin as a person who was well connected with "science" and that is
> where we get the idea he was a magician/sorcerer. He knew the art of
> illusion and understood the workings of nature. Of course he seemed
magical
> to people who had never seen sleight -of-hand or chemistry.
Sorry, folks, Merlin - or rather Welsh Myrddin - was the eponymous founder
(ie, he is a late back-formation developed to explain a misunderstood
placename) of Caer-fyrddin (Myrddin = Brittonic *Moridunon, Latinized as
Moridunum, meaning "Sea-fort") - thus he was legendary, and not a real man
at all. He was evidently envisioned as a prophet of some sort, as he was
early on connected and fused with the legendary Cumbric
warrior-prophet-madman Lailoken (who shares traits with the Irish figure
Suibne Geillt).
- Chris Gwinn
Christopher Gwinn
> Merlin, a name given to a prohetic bard, or druid was probably a real
> historical person, who in his translated prophecy forsaw the coming of a
> boer of cornawall that would basicly wage war against the saxons. and this
> came true.
Well, maybe in your own imagination - but none of this is actually supported
by factual evidence. All of the available facts point to a purely
legendary - and late - figure, who was not connected with Arthur at all
originally.
- Chris Gwinn
Cherith Baldry
>Magical, spirit conception for Merlin? My vote is sometimes that works
>well in fantasy novels and movies, but real world?
To the best of my knowledge there is no hard evidence that Merlin ever existed,
and certainly, as you say, no evidence that he had anything to do with Arthur.
However, the spirit birth isn't just something from a fantasy novel. It has a
respectable origin in the mediaeval texts, going back at least as far as Robert
de Boron. According to legend, the Devil wished to engender the Antichrist, and
tried to do this with a nun (or in some versions just a virtuous woman) but her
virtue was such that the plan failed. The child was immediately baptised by the
woman's confessor, Blaise, who then became Merlin's mentor.
Best regards,
Cherith
Luke Goaman-Dodson
news:zsYh8.32403$in3.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
He *might* have played a part in an early Arthurian legend - if he had
the blood of a demon or elf or whatever, he could have lived for over
a hundred years, which would open the possibility of him coinciding
with Arthur and dying (or getting imprisoned) several years later.
--
Luke
bardi
>
> He *might* have played a part in an early Arthurian legend - if he had
> the blood of a demon or elf or whatever, he could have lived for over
> a hundred years, which would open the possibility of him coinciding
> with Arthur and dying (or getting imprisoned) several years later.
> --
> Luke
>
>
There is also a case to be made that he is actually an anglicised version of
the Welsh mythic figure Taliesen. It has been a long time, but didn't Merlin
show up in the annals prior to Guen,who as I recall was a French addition?
-taedg
Sollers
"Cherith Baldry" <card...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020308024647...@mb-bg.aol.com...
or, of course, there is the boring, mundane explanation (which also gets
over the longevity issue because there would easily be more than one
"Merlin".
The later explanation of the name of the town Caerfyrddin ("Carmarthen" to
all you Saxons and Saxon-speakers) was that it was derived from the name
Myrddin (earlier than the French form "Merlin")
However, the Welsh name derives form the roman placename Maridunum or
Moridunum, so that obviously is a mistake.
The alternative is to look at it the other way round. The civitas capital
one belonged to was part of one's legal name in Late Antiquity, and anyone
coming from the area would be "of Maridunum".
The problem was that by the 5th century, it was no longer operating as a
town, and there were extensive Irish settlements and raiders in the area. A
virtuous local woman raped by a pirate might well refer to the resulting
child as a son of a demon.
richard wardle
Back to ALKA!
Ambrosius, is taken as a "Real" figure being mentioned by Gildas.
Vortigern is noted as being "Afraid" of this Ambrosius.
Ambrosius is noted as being in exile in Brittany.
The Connection with Dyfed/Demetea and Brittany is well attested.
Germanus definatley visited Britain twice and met "A" Vortigern both times.
Vortigern seems to have been in Gwynedd, probably expelling Irish,or
concluding a deal with the Venodotians..
While building/improving a defence their he Sent for Ambrosius, to Kill him
and propitiate the Gods of the "Hill"?
However Ambrosius turns the tables and escapes with his life, correctly
predicting to Vortigern that the Saxons he has imported to fight the Irish
will become the main threat to the Brythonic population.
As is stated elswhere in this thread the name of the civitas became
attatched to name of a person.Ambrosius may have been a patrynomic to which
was added Myrddin.
The Romans already had three names, cognomen,nomen and clan. ie Julius
Flavius Ceasar.
Note the clan is Julius, the cognomen is Flavius and the nomen is Ceasar.I
am pretty sure thats right. No doubt if I am not One of the more cognecenti
will correct me-I hope!
Later Ambrosius has the name Auralainius attatched to him,which may have
been his clan.
What is, or was his cognomen we may never know. This is the man we
credit/equate with being the first Merlin.
If he was,as is most likely, the son of a High ranking Official, his
education would be several levels above most of the rest of the population.
His tussles with Vortigern are well attested.
The Merlin of Myth is thus begun.
--
Regards Richard
Mankind is divided into three classes,
The rich,The poor and Those who have enough
Therefore abolish the rich and you will have no more poor,
For it is the few rich who are the cause of the many poor.
Heather Rose Jones
> The Romans already had three names, cognomen,nomen and clan. ie Julius
> Flavius Ceasar.
> Note the clan is Julius, the cognomen is Flavius and the nomen is Ceasar.I
> am pretty sure thats right. No doubt if I am not One of the more cognecenti
> will correct me-I hope!
> Later Ambrosius has the name Auralainius attatched to him,which may have
> been his clan.
I'll go for a brief (and thus oversimplified) discussion of Roman naming
practices, without discussing my opinions on whether or how they might
apply in the present case.
The standard "triple name" associated with Roman culture (most strongly
associated with the republican period) consisted of a praenomen
(literally "forename") that was considered the informal "personal" name
that one's friends used. These praenomina were drawn from an extremely
small and relatively fixed class of possibilities, and in inscriptions
were very often abbreviated to one or two letters (which was all that
was needed, since there were only a couple dozen possible praenomina).
This class includes familiar names such as Caius, Quintus, Lucius.
The basic family name was the nomen -- in the vast majority of cases, it
ends with the suffix "-ius", e.g., Julius, Aurelius, Marius, etc.
Originally, a cognomen was any sort of individual personal nickname
added to this, but very early on some cognomina became fixed and
inherited as identifying particular sub-families. So you'd have a nomen
+ cognomen combination that together identified a particular family,
e.g. "Julius Caeser", identifying the Caesar branch of the Julius
family. But alongside this sub-family usage, cognomina continued to
occur as personal nicknames.
One specialized type of cognomen frequently originated in the Roman
practice of adoption (adults were adopted as often as children) where
the adoptee took the adoptive parent's nomen and turned his original
nomen into an adjectival cognomen, by swapping "-ianus" for "-ius".
Hence, if Lucius Aurelius Nauta (invented example) were adopted by Gaius
Julius Africanus, he might become Lucius Julius Africanus Aurelianus.
As the relatively fixed format of the triple name dissolved into a
plethora of more elaborate formats in the imperial period, a clear
distinction of the function and origin of the various components became
more difficult. At all periods, a man's name might also include a
patronymic phrase combining "filius" with the father's praenomen -- this
practice continued on in the sub-Roman period, and was always pretty
much the only way that actual paternity was included in a name ("actual
paternity" being distinguished from an inherited family surname).
Just as a postscript, in the later imperial period, the praenomen was
largely falling out of use simply due to uselessness in identification,
while the cognomen (particularly those that were not part of a
sub-family name) rose into prominence as being considered the "personal
identification" part of the name. As the Roman social system (and hence
the relevance of the established Roman families) became obsolete, the
cognomen was what was left serving as the sole name element.
(This covers only naming systems directly related to the Roman system,
not those deriving from non-Roman cultures.)
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
Sarah
> TreetopAngel RN, BSN wrote in message ...
> >
> >"Dan Owen" <da...@powen20.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:a689pt$l2q$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> So, what's the general concensus amongst people here? Was Merlin indeed
> the
> >> offspring of a nun and a succubus demon?
> Ambrosius, is taken as a "Real" figure being mentioned by Gildas.
> Vortigern is noted as being "Afraid" of this Ambrosius.
> Ambrosius is noted as being in exile in Brittany.
> The Connection with Dyfed/Demetea and Brittany is well attested.
Really? Where?
> Germanus definatley [sic] visited Britain twice and met "A" Vortigern both times.
Since the name appears to have been a title, translating as "great
chieftain", that's not too surprising. Every local ruler must have
wanted to be known as "great".
> Vortigern seems to have been in Gwynedd, probably expelling Irish,or
> concluding a deal with the Venodotians..
He married one daughter to a son of an Irish king.
> While building/improving a defence their he Sent for Ambrosius, to Kill him
> and propitiate the Gods of the "Hill"?
Foundation sacrifices were seen as reasonable corrections for
engineering difficulties in those days. any such sacrifice would be
regarded as "immortalized", hence the name "ambrosius".
> However Ambrosius turns the tables and escapes with his life, correctly
> predicting to Vortigern that the Saxons he has imported to fight the Irish
> will become the main threat to the Brythonic population.
An ex-post-facto "prophecy", I might add.
> As is stated elswhere in this thread the name of the civitas became
> attatched to name of a person. Ambrosius may have been a patrynomic to which
> was added Myrddin.
The "Ambrosius" which derives from a mention in Nennius, I believe, is
a completely separate character from Ambrosius Aurelianus of the late
5th century. The first Ambrosius was specifically a child, and an only
child, supposedly of a princess of Demetia, which at the time in
question was ruled by an Irish house. This Ambrosius is never referred
to as "Myrddin" or "Merlin" or "Merlyn" in the most ancient texts, and
the incident of the two "dragons" derives from one directly taken from
Irish myth (as so much of early Welsh myth is).
> The Romans already had three names, cognomen,nomen and clan. ie Julius
> Flavius Ceasar.
> Note the clan is Julius, the cognomen is Flavius and the nomen is Ceasar.I
> am pretty sure thats right. No doubt if I am not One of the more cognecenti
> will correct me-I hope!
> Later Ambrosius has the name Auralainius attatched to him,which may have
> been his clan.
> What is, or was his cognomen we may never know. This is the man we
> credit/equate with being the first Merlin.
The name Ambrosius Aurelianus is quite explainable without any
mythical referents at all. When a Roman freed a slave, who then
became a "client" of the Roman, the freedman generally took a form of
the former master's name as a surname, usually something ending in
-ianus. I believe it was the emperor Catullus who decreed that
_peregrines_ were to be considered as Roman citizens, in the 3rd (?)
century. As a member of the Aurelian clan, newly-enfranchised Roman
citizens who were grateful to Catullus for this boon would be likely
to take "Aurelianus" as a surname.
> If he was,as is most likely, the son of a High ranking Official, his
> education would be several levels above most of the rest of the population.
> His tussles with Vortigern are well attested.
They are referred to only peripherally until Geoffrey of Monmouth's
HRB.
The connection of the first "Ambrosius" with a "Merlin"/"Merlyn" was
conflated with a late-6th-century account of a bard named
Myrddin/Lailoken who survived the battle of Arthuret and took refuge
in the wilderness north of Hadrian's wall. Some
late-6th/early-7th-century poems exist which _purport_ to be written
by Myrddin/Lailoken, and details from these have been added to the
myth of Merlin.
There appear to have been at least three, if not _FOUR_ separate
individuals, therefore:
1 - the boy Ambrosius, who was a foundation sacrifice in the late 5th
century for a construction undertaken by "Vortigern the Thin".
2 - Ambrosius Aurelianus, a descendant of the lineage of Magnus
Maximus, through Antonius Donatus, who ruled the territory of
central/eastern Galloway, north of Hadrian's wall.
3 - "Merlin", who was an advisor of the man we now call "King Arthur",
and who appears to have been active from ca. 475 to a date some time
before 528 (the date of Arthur's second plenary court, the beginning
of Arthur's war with the Irish and the decline of the unity of North
Britain under Arthur's rule.
4 - "Myrddin", the bard/sorceror of the king of North Solway (who died
in a pagan/Christian war in 568 CE), who survived to at least the
early 7th century, if one regards the existing poems as his legitimate
handiwork (the poems refer to his exile as being of over 30 years
length)
Luke Goaman-Dodson
news:d7f82a0.02031...@posting.google.com...
> the incident of the two "dragons" derives from one directly taken
from
> Irish myth (as so much of early Welsh myth is).
Evidence please?
--
Luke
richard wardle
I just knew I had not got it quite right!
I shall preserve your words in my database for ease of future reference, if
you do not object?
Thanks once again.
--
Regards Richard
Mankind is divided into three classes,
The rich,The poor and Those who have enough
Therefore abolish the rich and you will have no more poor,
For it is the few rich who are the cause of the many poor.
Heather Rose Jones wrote in message
<3C8BC5BB...@socrates.berkeley.edu>...
richard wardle
>"richard wardle" <ric...@wardleg.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<a6e4b8$voi$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>> TreetopAngel RN, BSN wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >"Dan Owen" <da...@powen20.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:a689pt$l2q$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> >> So, what's the general concensus amongst people here? Was Merlin
indeed
>> the
>> >> offspring of a nun and a succubus demon?
>
>
>> Ambrosius, is taken as a "Real" figure being mentioned by Gildas.
>> Vortigern is noted as being "Afraid" of this Ambrosius.
>> Ambrosius is noted as being in exile in Brittany.
>> The Connection with Dyfed/Demetea and Brittany is well attested.
>
>Really? Where?
>
>> Germanus definatley [sic] visited Britain twice and met "A" Vortigern
both times.
>
>Since the name appears to have been a title, translating as "great
>chieftain", that's not too surprising. Every local ruler must have
>wanted to be known as "great".
>
Actually its "First/Prime" chief same as "Pen" or" Head"+ Chief
>> Vortigern seems to have been in Gwynedd, probably expelling Irish,or
>> concluding a deal with the Venodotians..
>
>He married one daughter to a son of an Irish king.
>
So I believe it is noted.
>> While building/improving a defence their he Sent for Ambrosius, to Kill
him
>> and propitiate the Gods of the "Hill"?
>
>Foundation sacrifices were seen as reasonable corrections for
>engineering difficulties in those days. any such sacrifice would be
>regarded as "immortalized", hence the name "ambrosius".
>
True but surely frowned upon, even by the Celtic Church!
>> However Ambrosius turns the tables and escapes with his life, correctly
>> predicting to Vortigern that the Saxons he has imported to fight the
Irish
>> will become the main threat to the Brythonic population.
>
>An ex-post-facto "prophecy", I might add.
>
Well as we cannot now prove he actually said it before the event, but then
most of these "stories" were ,probably, accretions on an actual true base,
of an important event.This one though must have been an early one, as it has
no Christianisatian of the myth at all.
>> As is stated elswhere in this thread the name of the civitas became
>> attatched to name of a person. Ambrosius may have been a patrynomic to
which
>> was added Myrddin.
>
>The "Ambrosius" which derives from a mention in Nennius, I believe, is
>a completely separate character from Ambrosius Aurelianus of the late
>5th century. The first Ambrosius was specifically a child, and an only
>child, supposedly of a princess of Demetia, which at the time in
>question was ruled by an Irish house. This Ambrosius is never referred
>to as "Myrddin" or "Merlin" or "Merlyn" in the most ancient texts, and
>the incident of the two "dragons" derives from one directly taken from
>Irish myth (as so much of early Welsh myth is).
>
While it may be that they were different the lack of dating of the
event(closely) does not preclude them being the same.See you quote a
Demetian/Brittany connection here. Because his mother is supposed to be
Demetian, yet he is supposed to have hid exiled in Brittany Maybe after
escaping this event?
As to the Welsh extracting the Myths/events from the Irish I find this
Riscible.
As the Irish and Welsh were of the same celtic culture their Gods and Myths
were both compatable and interchangable, as were the Gauls The Irish had
colonised Demetia, in part at least and with probable Roman consent, and
also in the North. Mixtures of Myth and Fable and Gods is to be expected.
>> The Romans already had three names, cognomen,nomen and clan. ie Julius
>> Flavius Ceasar.
>> Note the clan is Julius, the cognomen is Flavius and the nomen is
Ceasar.I
>> am pretty sure thats right. No doubt if I am not One of the more
cognecenti
>> will correct me-I hope!
>> Later Ambrosius has the name Auralainius attatched to him,which may have
>> been his clan.
>> What is, or was his cognomen we may never know. This is the man we
>> credit/equate with being the first Merlin.
>
>The name Ambrosius Aurelianus is quite explainable without any
>mythical referents at all. When a Roman freed a slave, who then
>became a "client" of the Roman, the freedman generally took a form of
>the former master's name as a surname, usually something ending in
>-ianus. I believe it was the emperor Catullus who decreed that
>_peregrines_ were to be considered as Roman citizens, in the 3rd (?)
>century. As a member of the Aurelian clan, newly-enfranchised Roman
>citizens who were grateful to Catullus for this boon would be likely
>to take "Aurelianus" as a surname.
>
Your point is?
>> If he was,as is most likely, the son of a High ranking Official, his
>> education would be several levels above most of the rest of the
population.
>> His tussles with Vortigern are well attested.
>
>They are referred to only peripherally until Geoffrey of Monmouth's
>HRB.
>
How do we know that? Just because we have nothing surviving, or translated
right now does not mean there was not or wont be.
>The connection of the first "Ambrosius" with a "Merlin"/"Merlyn" was
>conflated with a late-6th-century account of a bard named
>Myrddin/Lailoken who survived the battle of Arthuret and took refuge
>in the wilderness north of Hadrian's wall. Some
>late-6th/early-7th-century poems exist which _purport_ to be written
>by Myrddin/Lailoken, and details from these have been added to the
>myth of Merlin.
>
>There appear to have been at least three, if not _FOUR_ separate
>individuals, therefore:
>
>1 - the boy Ambrosius, who was a foundation sacrifice in the late 5th
>century for a construction undertaken by "Vortigern the Thin".
>
>2 - Ambrosius Aurelianus, a descendant of the lineage of Magnus
>Maximus, through Antonius Donatus, who ruled the territory of
>central/eastern Galloway, north of Hadrian's wall.
>
In which geneology is this to be found?
>3 - "Merlin", who was an advisor of the man we now call "King Arthur",
>and who appears to have been active from ca. 475 to a date some time
>before 528 (the date of Arthur's second plenary court, the beginning
>of Arthur's war with the Irish and the decline of the unity of North
>Britain under Arthur's rule.
>
No Welsh tradition has Merlin meeting Arthur. Welsh Tradition acknowledges 3
"Merlins" only
>4 - "Myrddin", the bard/sorceror of the king of North Solway (who died
>in a pagan/Christian war in 568 CE), who survived to at least the
>early 7th century, if one regards the existing poems as his legitimate
>handiwork (the poems refer to his exile as being of over 30 years
>length)
Gwendolleu ,you mean ,husband of Merlins sister? so some say.
Heather Rose Jones
[re: overview of Roman naming]
> Thanks Heather
> I just knew I had not got it quite right!
> I shall preserve your words in my database for ease of future reference, if
> you do not object?
No objections -- on the other hand, it really was a very rough,
oversimplified run-through. There are some useful web sites that cover
the information in more detail and in particular contexts. If you look
at the Roman articles at Arval's Medieval Names Archive
<http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/>, you should find some useful information.
Heather Rose Jones
>
> Sarah wrote in message ...
> >"richard wardle" <ric...@wardleg.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> Germanus definatley [sic] visited Britain twice and met "A" Vortigern
> both times.
> >
> >Since the name appears to have been a title, translating as "great
> >chieftain", that's not too surprising. Every local ruler must have
> >wanted to be known as "great".
> >
> Actually its "First/Prime" chief same as "Pen" or" Head"+ Chief
Not quite. "Vor-" is a prepositional element (the modern Welsh
derivative of it is the preposition "ar") meaning "over, above, on".
While, in the context of titles, it shares with the element "pen" (head)
a reliance on the metaphoric correlation of greater elevation with
greater power and control, the literal meanings of the two elements are
quite different.
richard wardle
sounds very useful.
I shall take a look before I log off for the night.
Thanks!
--
Regards Richard
Mankind is divided into three classes,
The rich,The poor and Those who have enough
Therefore abolish the rich and you will have no more poor,
For it is the few rich who are the cause of the many poor.
Heather Rose Jones wrote in message
<3C94F22E...@socrates.berkeley.edu>...
richard wardle
these days!!
I was ,of course, referring to the context of Titles and not the literal
meanings.
Old age comes not alone,usually accompanied by memory loss,Alzheimers and
Grandchildren raiding your bank account!!!;>)))
--
Regards Richard
Mankind is divided into three classes,
The rich,The poor and Those who have enough
Therefore abolish the rich and you will have no more poor,
For it is the few rich who are the cause of the many poor.
Heather Rose Jones wrote in message
<3C94F325...@socrates.berkeley.edu>...
Kristen
Heather Rose Jones a écrit dans le message
>Not quite. "Vor-" is a prepositional element (the modern Welsh
>derivative of it is the preposition "ar") meaning "over, above, on".
>While, in the context of titles, it shares with the element "pen" (head)
>a reliance on the metaphoric correlation of greater elevation with
>greater power and control, the literal meanings of the two elements are
>quite different.
In modern Breton the derivative is "gour-" not "àr" which also exists. I
suppose there must be something similar in Welsh : "gur" maybe ? Their
meanings are different but my poor english won't allow me to go any further
into the explanations...
Kristen
Christopher Gwinn
>chieftain", that's not too surprising. Every local ruler must have
>wanted to be known as "great".
There is really no good reason to think that Vortigern was a title as
opposed to a regular aristocratic personal name - we have plenty of other
attested personal names - not titles - containing the root tigerno- "lord".
- Chris Gwinn
Heather Rose Jones
>
> Heather Rose Jones a écrit dans le message
> >Not quite. "Vor-" is a prepositional element (the modern Welsh
> >derivative of it is the preposition "ar") meaning "over, above, on".
> >While, in the context of titles, it shares with the element "pen" (head)
> >a reliance on the metaphoric correlation of greater elevation with
> >greater power and control, the literal meanings of the two elements are
> >quite different.
>
> In modern Breton the derivative is "gour-" not "àr" which also exists.
Does "ar" exist as a preposition in Breton? (I'm wracking my brains and
from memory I can only come up with the definite article.) Yes, Breton
"g(u)or" is cognate -- Welsh has a strong form of the word as "gor-"
that only survives in compounds. In late Old Welsh you were still
seeing "guar" for the preposition, but as with some other Welsh
prepositions, what survived was a lenited and phonetically reduced form.
Heather
Brigitta Nowland
> >a completely separate character from Ambrosius Aurelianus of the late
> >5th century. The first Ambrosius was specifically a child, and an only
> >child, supposedly of a princess of Demetia, which at the time in
> >question was ruled by an Irish house.
The Ambrosius in both Gildas and Nennius are descendants of wearers of the
purple and Nennius specically states "that is he was shown to be Emrys (Or
Amrbosius) the Overlord."
Ambrosius father's here was a Roman consul. Gildas is less specific but the
aristocratic Roman connection is there along with the overlord idea.
I think I recall reading somehere that there was a policy of installing
Romans as protectors of
Welsh Kingdoms, that were more international than specifically Welsh or
Irish. There was an Agricola of Demetia for example, who held the official
title of Protector.
Mary Stewart in her fiction did a good job of bringing out this connection
between the legendary Merlin and Ambrosius. Fundamentally she stuck pretty
close to the Gildas/Nennius material.
Regards
Graham
Katharine
This concept comes from Robert de Boron who bases his work on Geoffrey of
Monmouth who bases his on Nennius. Nennius says only that Ambrose, not
Merlin, has no mortal father.
Vortigern's messengers are sent to search for a fatherless boy. In
Glevesing, where they find a party of boys picking on a boy who has no
father. When the messenger questions his mother she says, "In what manner
he was conceived, I know not, for I have never had intercourse with any
man."
Robert de Boron, in his attempt to turn the Arthurian legend into a tribute
to Christianity, took the view that since Jesus could be the only child of a
virgin birth fathered by God, then Merlin (whom Monmouth had renamed
Ambrose) had to have been fathered by Satan as his answer to Jesus. Luckily
for Merlin, his mother saved his soul by lowering him in a basket on a rope
to be baptised after his birth.
Katharine