King Arthur's Children
Benjamin Fry
In T.H White's "The Once and Future King, it says on page 472- Ace
Publishing- "Arthur had two illegitimate children..." Mordred is one,
but who is the other? Thanks for your help!!
Malcolm Martin
from Benjamin Fry <benja...@mindspring.com> contains these words:
IIRC, White follows Mallory. So he is probably referring to Borre,
the illegitimate son of Arthur and Lionors. Other recorded sons of
Arthur are Amr [referred to by Nennius and also (probably) in
Gereint, Son of Erbin as Amhar] who was killed by Arthur, and
Llecheu [referred to in the Triads]. I have no idea as to who their
mother(s) were reckoned to be nor whether they were married to Arthur
at some point. Any takers? Any others?
--
Kind Regards
Malcolm Martin
London UK
malcolm...@harveywheeler.com
Natalie
Benjamin Fry <benja...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38BCEE34...@mindspring.com...
> Everyone,
> In T.H White's "The Once and Future King, it says on page 472- Ace
> Publishing- "Arthur had two illegitimate children..." Mordred is one,
> but who is the other? Thanks for your help!!
>
Hmm...interesting. I just read that part to and was planning on posting the
question as soon as I got done reading the newsgroup. Strange! <g>
--
Natalie
nat...@flashmail.com
http://www.crosswinds.net/~natabat
-----
Spotted on the back of a T-shirt worn by LAPD Bomb Squad: If you see me
running, try to keep up.
ldamien
finished reading Malory; I recall several were mentioned (including Borre
and Mordred) but am not sure of the names.
Denise Angel
Malcolm Martin wrote:
> The message <38BCEE34...@mindspring.com>
> from Benjamin Fry <benja...@mindspring.com> contains these words:
>
> > Everyone,
> > In T.H White's "The Once and Future King, it says on page 472- Ace
> > Publishing- "Arthur had two illegitimate children..." Mordred is one,
> > but who is the other? Thanks for your help!!
>
Cherith Baldry
> In T.H White's "The Once and Future King, it says on page 472- Ace
>Publishing- "Arthur had two illegitimate children..." Mordred is one,
>but who is the other?
Borre was the son of the lady Lionors, according to Malory; Lionors visited
Arthur after the Battle of Bedegraine.
Elsewhere, this character is named Lohot or Loholt. In _Perlesvaus_ he is the
legitimate son of Arthur and Guenevere, and he is killed by Kay.
Hope this helps.
Cherith
Peter Ewing
"Cherith Baldry" <cba...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000302132033...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
I hadn't realised that these characters were one and the same.
I recall someone a while ago referring to a folk song which began, I think:
King Arthur had three children
He had them out of doors
The person relating this thought that the second line had originally been,
'He had them by a whore,' but I'm not sure why. Does anyone else know of
this?
Peter
Romy
are illegitimate, but I also remember reading somewhere about a son of
Arthur's by Guinevere (unfortunately can't remember the source!)
Here are a few of the children ascribed to Arthur:
Mordred - his best known offspring, by Arthur's aunt or half-sister Morgan
or Morgause
Amhar - a son mentioned in the Mabinogion and by Nennius and Bernard
Cornwell (in which he is a twin brother of Loholt)
Ilinot - a son mentioned by Wolfram. He was raised by Queen Florie of
Kanadic
Llacheu - a son in Welsh tradition / identified with Loholt
Loholt - son of Arthur by Lionors (or Lysanor) / mentioned in Perlesvaus and
by Bernard Cornwell
Melora - the warrior daughter of Arthur mentioned in the Irish text "Dha
Sceal Arturaiochta"
Tom a’ Lincoln - in the romance "Tom a' Lincoln" by Richard Johnston the son
of Arthur by Angelica
No doubt there are as many more as there are versions of the Arthurian story
.....
Happy Reading!
ROMY
Natalie wrote in message ...
>
>Benjamin Fry <benja...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:38BCEE34...@mindspring.com...
>> Everyone,
>> In T.H White's "The Once and Future King, it says on page 472- Ace
>> Publishing- "Arthur had two illegitimate children..." Mordred is one,
Julian9EHP
[ . . . ]
>I recall someone a while ago referring to a folk song which began, I think:
>
>King Arthur had three children
>He had them out of doors
>
>The person relating this thought that the second line had originally been,
>'He had them by a whore,' but I'm not sure why. Does anyone else know of
>this?
>Peter
Or "out of doors" meaning not under his own roof tree -- illegitimate, as other
posters have stated.
E. Penrose
Martypie
threat to the throne in the traditional story, regardless of her love affair.
Kim Headlee
news:20000302215502...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Only under the following circumstances:
1. Mordred was Arthur's illegitimate son (earliest sources name him as
nephew)
2. A-G son survives his parents. According to one tradition, Amr/Amhir/Amhar
is killed by Arthur himself, and in (if memory serves) Perlesvaus, Loholt is
beheaded by Kay.
<g> There are many ways to effect the downfall of Camelot, regardless of
whose children are whose.
kdh
--
Kim D. Headlee
http://www.monumental.com/headlee
DAWNFLIGHT: The Legend of Guinevere, Pocket Books, Oct. 1, 1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671020412/systemsupportser
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671020412/systesupposervii
Winner, 1999 Blue Boa Award for Excellence in Romantic Fiction, Historical
category
Finalist, Golden Quill 2000, Historical category
Honorable Mention, SF Site Readers' Choice for Best SF/F Fiction of 1999
ldamien
carried the child full term.
Denise
Czaerana
>carried the child full term.
>Denise
>
Read in what? Must be modern fiction.
Cynthia
Kim Headlee
email:
> It is in Perlesvaus that Kay kills Loholt. Amr, though mentioned from time
> to time in various Welsh sources, is a shadowy figure at best. The story
> that he was killed by Arthur comes from the Historia Brittonum (Nennius)
> among the descriptions of the wonders of Britain. These include a tomb in
> the country of Ergyng which was supposedly raised for Amr. Apparently, it
> changes in size, and the author states that he knows this to be true
because
> he has measured it himself.
>
> Ergyng is generally thought to be the Wye Valley country of Herefordshire.
> Near Hay-on-Wye there is indeed a tomb - the remains of a prehistoric
burial
> mound - called Arthur's Grave. I suspect that this is the tomb referred to
> in the Historia Brittonum though I only made a single visit and cannot
vouch
> for its size shifting features.
ROFL!
I've always imagined the size-changing thing as being easily explained by
the actions of youngsters' pranks. It's not so far-fetched. In Washington
State, Mt. Rainier is just a few feet shy of 14,000' and the US Forest
Service is forever dismantling cairns set up by enthusiastic hikers. :)
> English Heritage notices refer vaguely to a
> legendary battle nearby, but make no other connections. Nearby, there is a
> village called Arkenfield, the first part of whose name may conceiveably
> derive from the name Ergyng.
Thanks for all the info. In all this time, I had never heard of an actual
location for the mysterious grave! I'll have to check it out for myself --
several times -- the next time I'm in that corner of the world.
kdh
ldamien
and an abomination to "pure" Arthurian dogma, but a good read nonetheless.
Take care,
Denise
Czaerana
>sure,
>and an abomination to "pure" Arthurian dogma, but a good read nonetheless.
And the name of the book is...?
BTW, I'm not interested in the "historical Arthur." That's a different field
entirely...
Cynthia
ldamien
A couple of modern books have dealt with this..I can't remember all the names
offhand..but one is "Guinevere" by Lauren Phelps (I think that is the correct
spelling). She claims to be the actual Guinevere reincarnated, and speaks of
being pregnant and self-aborting the baby. There was also a poem I read in an
anthology (can't remember the exact title), which is entitled "Guinevere Loses
Her Baby". If I think of the others, I'll let you know.
Denise
Czaerana
>spelling). She claims to be the actual Guinevere reincarnated,
LOL! What was she smoking?
Cynthia
ldamien
Denise
Julian9EHP
>>spelling). She claims to be the actual Guinevere reincarnated,
>
>LOL! What was she smoking?
Reincarnationists would improve their case if they sometimes claimed to be the
peasants and lower-castes who were the actual majority in all ages.
E. Penrose
WebSlave
> I recall someone a while ago referring to a folk song which began, I
think:
>
> King Arthur had three children
> He had them out of doors
I've come across a medieval (I think) song about King Arthur's three
sons. It goes with the same melody as "The Three Rogues" (I think). I
_know_ it's somewhere on the net, but couldn't find it now, sorry.
It has nothing to do with the established canon (if there is one...)
though.
For those who were asking about Arthur's children in modern fiction I
could add a daughter, Hylin, from Mary Sutcliff's Sword at Sunset.
Then, of course there's another daughter in Walter Scott's "The Bridal
of Triermain" (?). Gyneth or Gwyneth I think. The mother was a fay.
Gwendolen perhaps.
Gwendolen was also the name of Arthur's (legitimate) daughter in one
comic book. 'Knight Ardent' would be the direct Translation, but I don't
know the original English name.
Too bad I don't have access to my sources now. I once collected Arthur's
children from different sources. Most of my findings have been mentioned
already, but I might have some other children in my back pocket if I
take a look at my notes. Don't go away... ;-)
WebSlave
(Following this ng way too rarely nowadays
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jimmy Joe
Benjamin Fry wrote:
> Everyone,
> In T.H White's "The Once and Future King, it says on page 472- Ace
> Publishing- "Arthur had two illegitimate children..." Mordred is one,
> but who is the other? Thanks for your help!!
In medieval Arthurian literature, Mordred was Arthur's son by his Arthur's
half-sister, Morgawse (Morgause).
As for his othe son he was called
- Borre by Lionors (Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur")
- Lohot or Loholt by Lisanor (Chretien de Troyes' "Erc" and from the
non-cyclic prose "Lancelot of the Lake")
I believe that are one and the same person. Arthur met Lisanor (or
Lionors) before his marriage to Guinevere.
In the Welsh tradition, Arthur's son was named Llacheu.
Edwin Ng
>
> Good point! I have read about Guinevere conceiving several times, but never
> carried the child full term.
> Denise
>
>
> > Had Arthur and Guinevere had a son, that would have stripped Mordred of his
> > threat to the throne in the traditional story, regardless of her love affair.
I've read somewhere that they did have a son. I think he was called Amir
- meaning something like beloved.
Todd Jensen
>I've read somewhere that they did have a son. I think he was called Amir
>- meaning something like beloved.
Amir shows up in the Welsh legends (mainly Nennius), but we only know that
Arthur was his father; they don't say who his mother was. All that we know
of him beyond Arthur being his father was that Arthur killed him (we don't
know why, though, alas) and buried him beneath an enchanted mound that
changes size every time that somebody measures it. (The spooky part about
it is that Nennius states that he put this to the test and found it to be
the truth. I'd like to know a bit more about just what happened when he was
measuring it).
Todd Jensen
Joe Jefferson
What do you mean? We do know what happened when he was measuring it: It
changed size. ;)
--
Joe of Castle Jefferson
http://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/
Site updated October 1st, 1999.
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the
poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the
hand of the wicked." - Psalm 82:3-4.
Pamela Maddison
Joe Jefferson <jjst...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:38D13A...@primenet.com...
> Todd Jensen wrote:
> >
> > >I've read somewhere that they did have a son. I think he was called
Amir
> > >- meaning something like beloved.
> >
> > Amir shows up in the Welsh legends (mainly Nennius), but we only know
that
> > Arthur was his father; they don't say who his mother was. All that we
know
> > of him beyond Arthur being his father was that Arthur killed him
The "Trioedd Ynys Prydein" also give Llacheu as Arthur's son. He's
mentioned in a number of literary sources, and Rachel Bromwich considers he
belongs to the oldest Arthurian traditions; most references are to his
death.
Joe Jefferson
That's odd. I don't recall making any posts to this thread. And I
certainly didn't write what you quoted above. (I couldn't have, because
I didn't know it until I read it just now. <g>)
Pamela Maddison
> Pamela Maddison wrote:
> >
> > Joe Jefferson <jjst...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> > news:38D13A...@primenet.com...
> > > Todd Jensen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I've read somewhere that they did have a son. I think he was called
> > Amir
> > > > >- meaning something like beloved.
> > > >
> > > > Amir shows up in the Welsh legends (mainly Nennius), but we only
know
> > that
> > > > Arthur was his father; they don't say who his mother was. All that
we
> > know
> > > > of him beyond Arthur being his father was that Arthur killed him
> >
> > The "Trioedd Ynys Prydein" also give Llacheu as Arthur's son. He's
> > mentioned in a number of literary sources, and Rachel Bromwich considers
he
> > belongs to the oldest Arthurian traditions; most references are to his
> > death.
>
> That's odd. I don't recall making any posts to this thread. And I
> certainly didn't write what you quoted above. (I couldn't have, because
> I didn't know it until I read it just now. <g>)
>
It only goes to show: I always did think my computer had a mind of its own
;-)
Joe Jefferson
Yeah. And it's smarter than I am. :(