IQ Tests, Again
Peter H.M. Brooks
In article <32D3C6...@pennine.com> s...@pennine.com "Sue Spence" writes:
> not Pee is discussing his work in a sensible manner. The way
> you're headed, even if your suspicions about Peter's ideas are
> correct, he will appear to anyone who has bother to read this thread
> to have "won" the debate (what with you following up to his posts and
>
I am sorry to upset you by 'winning' again, Sue, but thank you for
your support anyway.
On the subject of left handedness, I enjoyed the film 'Surviving Picasso',
though they pronounced his name in a rather affected manner. I have usually
found Anthony Hopkins an excellent actor - probably the best alive, in
my opinion - so I was shocked that he balked at the challenge of acting
Picasso properly. As any ful kno, Picasso was left handed and Hopkins
is relentlessly right handed, I am most disappointed in him.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
R/L Davis
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> On the subject of left handedness, I enjoyed the film 'Surviving Picasso',
> though they pronounced his name in a rather affected manner. I have usually
> found Anthony Hopkins an excellent actor - probably the best alive, in
> my opinion - so I was shocked that he balked at the challenge of acting
> Picasso properly. As any ful kno, Picasso was left handed and Hopkins
> is relentlessly right handed, I am most disappointed in him.
Im'a ful, I didnt kno!
How do we "know" he was left handed? I've asked this here before. His work
was done clearly with his right hand and photos taken of him working show him
using his right hand. Other than on left-hander lists I've never heard this
referred to. Have I missed something? Please let me know.
Richard
Sue Spence
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
> In article <32D3C6...@pennine.com> s...@pennine.com "Sue Spence" writes:
>
> > not Pee is discussing his work in a sensible manner. The way
> > you're headed, even if your suspicions about Peter's ideas are
> > correct, he will appear to anyone who has bother to read this thread
> > to have "won" the debate (what with you following up to his posts and
> >
> I am sorry to upset you by 'winning' again, Sue, but thank you for
> your support anyway.
I know you hope to have upset me, but not hardly. I rather like your
posts,
and I find the subject of brain lateralization an interesting one. It
just
pains me to see such a lame attempt at an argument. I knew you didn't
need
any support - you were doing just fine. She was screwing up big time.
>
> On the subject of left handedness, I enjoyed the film 'Surviving Picasso',
> though they pronounced his name in a rather affected manner. I have usually
> found Anthony Hopkins an excellent actor - probably the best alive, in
> my opinion - so I was shocked that he balked at the challenge of acting
> Picasso properly. As any ful kno, Picasso was left handed and Hopkins
> is relentlessly right handed, I am most disappointed in him.
>
Do you know for a fact that Picasso painted with his left hand only?
Lefties are well known for not being entirely "left-handed".
BTW, what do you know about that so-called test for handedness
which involves clasping one's hands together and noting which
thumb is "on top"? Does it prove anything at all?
-sue "right-thumb-up & left-eyed but very right-handed"
R/L Davis
Sue Spence wrote:
>
> Do you know for a fact that Picasso painted with his left hand only?
> Lefties are well known for not being entirely "left-handed".
Sue,
I also asked in a recent post how we "know" Picasso was left-handed.
I asked this question several months ago (with no response), but I also
wonder how we "know" Raphael was left-handed, and some lists have
Michaelangelo as left-handed, and Durer (it's harder to decide with Durer.)
I believe that all four of these artists drew, and therefore undoubtedly
painted, with their right hands. The reason I believe this is as follows;
When people draw a series of quick lines, such as the common practice of
shading with cross hatching, the hand makes a characteristic curve. This
curve bows away from the hand, and for a left-hander runs from upper left
to lower right, and for a right-hander from the upper right to the lower
left. A variation on this is a simple slight curve running from top to
bottom, and bowing toward the left (like an opening parenthesis) for a
right-hander, and toward the right (closing parenthesis)for a left-hander.
Artists such as Picasso, Raphael, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Corot,and Degas
have the characteristic line "signature" of right handed artists, while
da Vinci's drawings are clearly done with the left hand.
This seems to me to be a clear way to tell what hand the artist works with.
It may seem rather complex at first reading, but just try drawing a series
of quick lines as though you were shading, like you find in a da Vinci or
Raphael drawing, and ask a right-hander to do the same and I believe
you will see what I mean. Or simply get books of drawings by these two
artists and compare them. Picasso does not use this cross hatching method
of shading as often as the others but when you find it, it is clearly done
with the right hand. I have never found a Picasso drawing that I felt
probably was done with his left hand.
I would like comments from anyone who thinks I am right or wrong. Has
anyone else ever noticed this? And why are Picasso, Raphael and
Michelangelo often on lists of left-handers? As a left-hander and a painter
I would love to keep these artists on the left-hander lists, but not if
they're not. So if I'm wrong, please convince me.
Richard
Charlie Bond
Sue Spence wrote:
> BTW, what do you know about that so-called test for handedness
> which involves clasping one's hands together and noting which
> thumb is "on top"? Does it prove anything at all?
No. There's a 50-50 (I think!) split between left thumb up and right
thumb up, which is believed to be genetically determined and (obviously
not highly correlated with left/right-handedness). Source "The theory of
evolution" by John Maynard Smith (I think!).
Charlie
PS: I'm left-handed/eyed/footed/sided and I can't fucking draw. Where's
the justice in life.
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> I know you hope to have upset me, but not hardly. I rather like your
> posts,
>
No I didn't, I was simply a wee quip. Thank you for the compliment.
>
> and I find the subject of brain lateralization an interesting one. It
> just
> pains me to see such a lame attempt at an argument. I knew you didn't
> need
> any support - you were doing just fine. She was screwing up big time.
>
I am fascinated by the subject as well, particularly as I am left handed -
I noticed (anecdote, I know) that when we studied symetry in third
year physics, in a class that I know fairly well, I was surprised to
find that I found the examples and tests absolutely obvious while
the rest of the class struggled. I knew that this wasn't a result
of their being dim, so wondered what it was. When I learned of the
improved spatial ability in left handers it all made sense.
>
> >
> > On the subject of left handedness, I enjoyed the film 'Surviving Picasso',
> > though they pronounced his name in a rather affected manner. I have usually
> > found Anthony Hopkins an excellent actor - probably the best alive, in
> > my opinion - so I was shocked that he balked at the challenge of acting
> > Picasso properly. As any ful kno, Picasso was left handed and Hopkins
> > is relentlessly right handed, I am most disappointed in him.
> >
>
> Do you know for a fact that Picasso painted with his left hand only?
> Lefties are well known for not being entirely "left-handed".
>
We seem to have some conflicting evidence on this one. I am trying to
get to the bottom of Picasso's alledged left handedness. Do you have
any original evidence for this claim?
>
> BTW, what do you know about that so-called test for handedness
> which involves clasping one's hands together and noting which
> thumb is "on top"? Does it prove anything at all?
>
There are a number of tests, I think that a lot fail as there are
different degrees of laterality. Some people simply kick with their
left foot, but are otherwise right handed, for example.
Children who, like me, were forced to right with their right hand
sometimes end up ambidextrous. Not in my case - I was obliged in my
first year at school to go up to the teacher first thing in the
morning and have a pencil taped to my right hand in the writing
position to prevent me from using my left - it didn't work.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Peter H.M. Brooks
In article <5barao$r...@news.istar.ca>
dav...@tallships.istar.ca "R/L Davis" writes:
> > On the subject of left handedness, I enjoyed the film 'Surviving Picasso',
> > though they pronounced his name in a rather affected manner. I have usually
> > found Anthony Hopkins an excellent actor - probably the best alive, in
> > my opinion - so I was shocked that he balked at the challenge of acting
> > Picasso properly. As any ful kno, Picasso was left handed and Hopkins
> > is relentlessly right handed, I am most disappointed in him.
>
> Im'a ful, I didnt kno!
> How do we "know" he was left handed? I've asked this here before. His work
> was done clearly with his right hand and photos taken of him working show him
> using his right hand. Other than on left-hander lists I've never heard this
> referred to. Have I missed something? Please let me know.
> Richard
>
You raise an interesting question. I have looked up various references that
mention his being left handed, but haven't run them to ground. Certainly
the biography of his that I am reading doen't make any mention of it.
I will continue to investigate.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
R/L Davis
Spence Shultz wrote:
>
> R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.istar.ca> wrote:
> >How do we "know" he was left handed? I've asked this here before. His work
> >was done clearly with his right hand and photos taken of him working show him
> >using his right hand. Other than on left-hander lists I've never heard this
> >referred to. Have I missed something? Please let me know.
> >Richard
>
> I just looked at six Picasso self-portraits on the Internet. Only one of them showed his
> hands (a 1906 painting) and he was holding the palatte in his left hand. Although in this
> portrait he did not paint himself holding a brush in his right hand, I would probably
> infer from the palatte that he was right handed. I can think of 3 possible sources of
> error with this interpretation:
> 1) Picasso was looking in a mirror as he painted his self-portrait (possible).
> 2) The photograph of the painting was reversed (Possible. I haven't seen the original
> painting).
> 3) He just felt like painting the palatte in the opposite hand than was his norm (not
> likely).
Spence,
I wonder if looking at self-portraits is the cause of some of the confusion.
Artists obviously DO look at a mirror when painting themselves, but a great
many artists then paint the brush into their opposite hand so that the portrait
looks more true. Rembrandt did this. So looking at self-portraits will not
answer the problem for us.
Richard
Peter H.M. Brooks
In article <5bek0r$2...@news.istar.ca>
dav...@tallships.istar.ca "R/L Davis" writes:
> [good and interesting points about lines in paintings deleted]
> I would like comments from anyone who thinks I am right or wrong. Has
> anyone else ever noticed this? And why are Picasso, Raphael and
> Michelangelo often on lists of left-handers? As a left-hander and a painter
> I would love to keep these artists on the left-hander lists, but not if
> they're not. So if I'm wrong, please convince me.
> Richard
>
I am out to track this one down. As I said the biography 'Picasso', by
Patrick O.Brian, published by Harper Collins in 1994, doesn't mention
his being left handed - this could just be a slip by a right handed
biographer. I would also like to know the truth. I have asked the
posters of a number of web sites that claim left handedness for
various artists to let me know the source of the claim, but, to
date, I have had no replies.
I will try in find a way to contact the Picasso trustees who objected
to the film 'Surviving Picasso' to see if they can shed any light
on the matter.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Spence Shultz
R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.istar.ca> wrote:
>Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>> On the subject of left handedness, I enjoyed the film 'Surviving Picasso',
>> though they pronounced his name in a rather affected manner. I have usually
>> found Anthony Hopkins an excellent actor - probably the best alive, in
>> my opinion - so I was shocked that he balked at the challenge of acting
>> Picasso properly. As any ful kno, Picasso was left handed and Hopkins
>> is relentlessly right handed, I am most disappointed in him.
>Im'a ful, I didnt kno!
>How do we "know" he was left handed? I've asked this here before. His work
>was done clearly with his right hand and photos taken of him working show him
>using his right hand. Other than on left-hander lists I've never heard this
>referred to. Have I missed something? Please let me know.
>Richard
I just looked at six Picasso self-portraits on the Internet. Only one of them showed his
hands (a 1906 painting) and he was holding the palatte in his left hand. Although in this
portrait he did not paint himself holding a brush in his right hand, I would probably
infer from the palatte that he was right handed. I can think of 3 possible sources of
error with this interpretation:
1) Picasso was looking in a mirror as he painted his self-portrait (possible).
2) The photograph of the painting was reversed (Possible. I haven't seen the original
painting).
3) He just felt like painting the palatte in the opposite hand than was his norm (not
likely).
A possible source of the lefty allegations regarding Picasso and the other possible
historical lefties we've seen in the lists would be in documents written by people who
actually observed and noted the left handed trait. I haven't been able to find any
written documentation regarding Picasso's hand preference, though, in spite of the several
minutes I spent researching this topic.
Maybe we oughta pull Pablo's lefty credentials for the time being until we can
substantiate them.
Spence (a lefty)
spe...@sprintmail.com
Illtud Daniel
[a.p dropped]
From footage of Picasso painting, ISTR that he used his right hand.
Mind you, this footage was projected onto a backdrop in a rave in
the early hours, but it kept me entranced for over an hour.
I don't know what the film is, but it's been on TV before as well -
there's footage from behind the canvas (gauze, possibly) and the
strokes appear as if by magic. Watching him work is quite stunning.
--
_ Illtud Daniel ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk
X "I was born outta time" Napoleon Wilson -read Mr Nice- FFPGP
Sue Spence
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> I am fascinated by the subject as well, particularly as I am left handed -
> I noticed (anecdote, I know) that when we studied symetry in third
> year physics, in a class that I know fairly well, I was surprised to
> find that I found the examples and tests absolutely obvious while
> the rest of the class struggled. I knew that this wasn't a result
> of their being dim, so wondered what it was. When I learned of the
> improved spatial ability in left handers it all made sense.
Perhaps. I have noticed that there seem to be more left-handed
engineers than what you'd expect given the statistical frequency
of left-handedness. However I wouldn't have said that they
were any better at their jobs than right-handers so it wouldn't seem
to be a major benefit in the long term.
I still want to know how you explain the left-handed half of
a set of mirror twins. I don't think they can be explained
away by either of your two favored hypotheses, although I
will grant you that they most likely became left-handed in
the womb (since the zygote probably divides into two in
that location).
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Perhaps. I have noticed that there seem to be more left-handed
> engineers than what you'd expect given the statistical frequency
> of left-handedness. However I wouldn't have said that they
> were any better at their jobs than right-handers so it wouldn't seem
> to be a major benefit in the long term.
>
> I still want to know how you explain the left-handed half of
> a set of mirror twins. I don't think they can be explained
> away by either of your two favored hypotheses, although I
> will grant you that they most likely became left-handed in
> the womb (since the zygote probably divides into two in
> that location).
>
I am not quite sure what you mean by 'mirror' twins. If twins are
identical, it is unlikely that their development will be different
unless there is some difference in the uterine environment. It the
twins are not identical, there is no problem as, if they are male,
it is quite likely that their testes will develop at different
rates and thus provide different levels of testosterone. If they
are female - or identical - then one would imagine that the increased
trauma of a twin birth would disadvantage the second twin in terms
of oxygen supply at birth and thus render the second twin left-handed.
This is all surmise, I know of no studies of this.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Charlie Bond
Sue Spence wrote:
> I have noticed that there seem to be more left-handed
> engineers than what you'd expect given the statistical frequency
> of left-handedness. However I wouldn't have said that they
> were any better at their jobs than right-handers so it wouldn't seem
> to be a major benefit in the long term.
I wish they were better at designing things so that left-handed people
could use them too. (Mind you, have you seen those Japanese fridges
which open either way).
Digression, I know
Charlie
Sue Spence
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
> "Sue Spence" writes:
>
> >
> > I still want to know how you explain the left-handed half of
> > a set of mirror twins. I don't think they can be explained
> > away by either of your two favored hypotheses, although I
> > will grant you that they most likely became left-handed in
> > the womb (since the zygote probably divides into two in
> > that location).
> >
> I am not quite sure what you mean by 'mirror' twins. If twins are
> identical, it is unlikely that their development will be different
> unless there is some difference in the uterine environment. It the
> twins are not identical, there is no problem as, if they are male,
> it is quite likely that their testes will develop at different
> rates and thus provide different levels of testosterone. If they
> are female - or identical - then one would imagine that the increased
> trauma of a twin birth would disadvantage the second twin in terms
> of oxygen supply at birth and thus render the second twin left-handed.
> This is all surmise, I know of no studies of this.
>
Approximately 1/4 of all monozygotic twins are 'mirror twins'.
One twin will be right-handed, one left-handed. The degrees of
mirroring are not always the same from one set to another, but
everything from hair whorls to internal organs may be mirrored.
This gives your assertion that testosterone & oxygen-deprivation
at birth are the only two causes of left-handedness a bit of a flat
tire. I'm surprised that you'd never heard of this phenomenon.
It is not particularly obscure, and almost undoubtedly arises due
to how the zygote divides into two.
Best Sellers
Charlie Bond <char...@biochem.usyd.edu.au> thought hard
about this before writing:
The direction the door of a refrigerator should open is more
a function of which side the counter/cupboards are on than
which hand the opener prefers. The opening should be on the
same side as the work surface. Most US refrigerators have
reversable doors with hinges that can go on either side with
a simple screwdriver.
BTW, back forty years ago ther was a US-built refrigerator
that had schitzphrenic door (Amana, I believe), but it had
big problems in the market place (and some engineering
issues) and quietly disapeared after two years or so.
Le
Education is far too important to trust it to government.
See http://www.sepschool.org.
______
If the state monopolizes the philosophy of its citizens, it is
not significant that it does so in the classroom rather than
in the chapel.
(1996) Moi
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of
opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
(1777) Thomas Jefferson
Whenever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found
state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure
implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.
(1874) Benjamin Disraeli
Brian Hoglan
So Peter from what I gather from what you are saying about the lack of
oxegyn are you saying that I am a leftie cuz I have a little brain
damage??? Would having ADD or ADHD do anything to the hand you write
with???
--
Hey! I'm a leftie (The few the proud!) and Iove it!!!
> I am not quite sure what you mean by 'mirror' twins. If twins are
> identical, it is unlikely that their development will be different
> unless there is some difference in the uterine environment. It the
> twins are not identical, there is no problem as, if they are male,
> it is quite likely that their testes will develop at different
> rates and thus provide different levels of testosterone. If they
> are female - or identical - then one would imagine that the increased
> trauma of a twin birth would disadvantage the second twin in terms
> of oxygen supply at birth and thus render the second twin left-handed.
> This is all surmise, I know of no studies of this.
>
> --
> Peter H.M. Brooks
>
>
Spence Shultz
Sue Spence <s...@pennine.com> wrote:
>Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>>
>> "Sue Spence" writes:
>>
>> >
>> > I still want to know how you explain the left-handed half of
>> > a set of mirror twins. I don't think they can be explained
>> > away by either of your two favored hypotheses, although I
>> > will grant you that they most likely became left-handed in
>> > the womb (since the zygote probably divides into two in
>> > that location).
>> >
>> I am not quite sure what you mean by 'mirror' twins. If twins are
>> identical, it is unlikely that their development will be different
[Snip]
>Approximately 1/4 of all monozygotic twins are 'mirror twins'.
>One twin will be right-handed, one left-handed. The degrees of
>mirroring are not always the same from one set to another, but
>everything from hair whorls to internal organs may be mirrored.
>This gives your assertion that testosterone & oxygen-deprivation
>at birth are the only two causes of left-handedness a bit of a flat
>tire. I'm surprised that you'd never heard of this phenomenon.
>It is not particularly obscure, and almost undoubtedly arises due
>to how the zygote divides into two.
Does this mean that out of 4 twin pairs, one pair will likely have a left hander as one of
the pair? In other words, out of these 8 people, is one of them left handed?
If that is the case, the percentage of left handers (12.5%) in the monozygotic twin pool
(I just had to say that) is about what the lefty prevalence is in the general public. It
would seem that "mirroring" might not be a significant factor in determining hand
preference within twin pairs. Therefore, opposing hand preferences probably shouldn't be
used to indicate that a twin pair is "mirrored."
If the cause of our "lefty-ness" is dominantly genetic, in those cases where one twin is
left-handed, wouldn't the other twin be more prone to be a lefty, too? Has this
correlation been observed?
Although the percentage of lefties in the general public has not been firmly established
due to a number of factors (how is a lefty determined, how many righties are "re-educated"
lefties, etc.), the one-out-of-eight ballpark figure is intriguing from the genetics
standpoint. Could there be a recessive gene that is somehow responsible for
lefthandedness?
It would not have to be a lefty gene, per se, but it could be a recessive gene that
controls the hormone release, etc., in the mothers of future lefties. If that were the
case, statistically, most lefties would not have this genetic factor and would be no more
prone to parent lefties than anyone else.
Or, the lefty gene it may be a gene in the left handed individual that controlled the
absorption of some compound during fetal development. In this case, offspring of two left
handed parents would be much more likely to be and to bear left handed children.
Has anyone found studies that measure the frequency of left handed offspring where both
parents are left handed?
Do you happen to recall the source of your information on hand preference in twins and
"mirroring?" I'd like to look into this a bit further. Because my college genetics
education is long behind me (and mostly forgotten), I'd appreciated any additional
suggestions or guidance in researching this. I think I'll contact the Human Genome
research folks to see if they might have some ideas.
Spence (from the alt.lefthanders ng)
spe...@sprintmail.com
RANDA MURPHY
Hi...I just wanted to make sure I was understanding something right...
I just read a posting in which it appeared to me, that someone was trying
to formulate a reason for "mirror" twins...mirror twins are identical
twins that when facing each other, they appear to be looking in a
mirror...this carrys over to outward genetic things as well...not just
which hand they write with. For example...the mirror twins maybe one
lefty and the other righty...one may have a birth mark or a mole on there
left thigh while the other has one on the right...
Anyway, I am a bit miffed that someone could even suggest that the reason
the other twin is left handed is due to a lack of oxygen while in the
womb...this is ridiculous...To imply such evil is to say that lefthander
are a result of a birth defect...if that's the case then all of us
lefthanders should recieve social security!!!!
Did anyone else see this!!! WAS anyone else outraged!!!
Randa
Sue Spence
Bill Oakey wrote:
>
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:22:43 -0800, Sue Spence <s...@pennine.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Approximately 1/4 of all monozygotic twins are 'mirror twins'.
> >One twin will be right-handed, one left-handed. The degrees of
> >
>
> I do not think that oxygen deprivation or other strictly chemical
> factors could influence this at all (I know that you did not
> originally say it).
I also said that I never disagreed that these two conditions
might not play a part in some cases of left-handedness. I
don't know for certain.
> Stating that a lack or too much of something
> causes left handedness, surely infers that it is abnormal behaviour
> and I for one feel uncomfortable with that theory.
Why take it as suggesting anything? Being left-handed
is not normal, just as the fact that I have an Rh- blood
type is not normal. That doesn't make it a bad thing.
>
> As for zygote division I am not sufficiently 'au fait' with that to
> comment, but I think that the early developments of the brain and
> subsequent use could well be a governing factor.
Both oxygen deprivation and hormones such as testosterone
could be (and indeed are) very influential in the early
development of the brain.
>
> It is interesting how left handed people are viewed in society, some
> tribes in Africa kill (or used to ) left handed people, conversely
> others view left handed people as being an elite and place them on the
> path of ascendancy to tribe 'sage'.
I've heard they used to boil missionaries too.
>
> I personally tend to view people who are left handed as creative but
> there again I have probably fallen for the old stereotyping 'thing'.
Possibly.
D.M. Richerby
3.970121145008.2138C-100000@sun005>
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Keywords:
In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.970121145008.2138C-100000@sun005>,
RANDA MURPHY <s00...@discover.wright.edu> writes:
> Anyway, I am a bit miffed that someone could even suggest that the reason
> the other twin is left handed is due to a lack of oxygen while in the
> womb...this is ridiculous...To imply such evil is to say that lefthander
> are a result of a birth defect...if that's the case then all of us
> lefthanders should recieve social security!!!!
Well, I am a bit miffed that somebody could suggest that men have got an
X and a Y chromosome but women have got two X chromosomes...this is
ridiculous...To imply such evil is to say that men are a result of a
genetic defect...if that's the case then all of us men should receive
social security!!!
Dave.
--
David Richerby, Fitzwilliam College, University of Cambridge.
Orlan Mirkovich
YES, YES, YES. I'm a lefthander AND a male. I need aproximately.... $800
pw?
D.M. Richerby <dm...@thor.cam.ac.uk> wrote in article
<5c3f6s$c...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
Peter H.M. Brooks
In article <01b41fc9$30a73cc0$7e08...@rhoglan.oz.net>
rho...@oz.net "Brian Hoglan" writes:
> So Peter from what I gather from what you are saying about the lack of
> oxegyn are you saying that I am a leftie cuz I have a little brain
> damage??? Would having ADD or ADHD do anything to the hand you write
> with???
>
If poor spelling is an indication of brain damage, I would suggest
that you have your answer.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
John Boyle
Bill Oakey wrote:
>
>
>
> This fascism has to stop, it is an outrage and the next stage of this
> process will be arresting men who dress to the left and then where
> will we all be?.
RIGHT!!
jb
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Approximately 1/4 of all monozygotic twins are 'mirror twins'.
> One twin will be right-handed, one left-handed. The degrees of
> mirroring are not always the same from one set to another, but
> everything from hair whorls to internal organs may be mirrored.
> This gives your assertion that testosterone & oxygen-deprivation
> at birth are the only two causes of left-handedness a bit of a flat
> tire. I'm surprised that you'd never heard of this phenomenon.
> It is not particularly obscure, and almost undoubtedly arises due
> to how the zygote divides into two.
>
Interesting. I hadn't heard of this phenomenon, but don't really
see why you consider that it gives the suggested reasons for
left handedness a 'flat tire'. After all all you are suggesting
it that there is an evolutionary embryonic influence on the
development of chirality in identical twins - this has absolutely
no implication on the development of individual foeti. In fact
it reinforces my suggestion that chirality was environmental.
I still think that there is no evidence that the two causes
of chirality that I mentioned are not accurate, though in
the case of identical twins the chemical environment in the
womb is clearly more complex adding an additional reason
for left-handedness.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Hugh Davies
>I wish they were better at designing things so that left-handed people
>could use them too. (Mind you, have you seen those Japanese fridges
>which open either way).
We have an Electrolux 'frig and a freezer, both of can have their
doors hung either side...
Regards,
Huge.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Davies, Bedfordshire, England.
"The British are subtle, but nasty when provoked." --spaf
http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk
michael james adkins
John Boyle wrote:
> i can do it with both hands ,,,left and right,,, mick
Sue Spence
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
> In article <32E30F...@pennine.com> s...@pennine.com "Sue Spence" writes:
>
> > Approximately 1/4 of all monozygotic twins are 'mirror twins'.
> > One twin will be right-handed, one left-handed. The degrees of
> > mirroring are not always the same from one set to another, but
> > everything from hair whorls to internal organs may be mirrored.
> > This gives your assertion that testosterone & oxygen-deprivation
> > at birth are the only two causes of left-handedness a bit of a flat
> > tire. I'm surprised that you'd never heard of this phenomenon.
> > It is not particularly obscure, and almost undoubtedly arises due
> > to how the zygote divides into two.
> >
> Interesting. I hadn't heard of this phenomenon, but don't really
> see why you consider that it gives the suggested reasons for
> left handedness a 'flat tire'. After all all you are suggesting
> it that there is an evolutionary embryonic influence on the
> development of chirality in identical twins - this has absolutely
> no implication on the development of individual foeti. In fact
> it reinforces my suggestion that chirality was environmental.
Let's see, you have made two separate but related claims about the
cause of left-handedness
1. It's caused by an excess of testosterone in the womb
or brain damage at birth
2. It happens in the womb
You have made the 1st claim more often than the second, and the
first is the one I'm addressing. If some percentage of identical
twins exhibit chirality, as you so charmingly term it, to the
extent that their internal organs are mirrored, well fuck me if
I am going to believe that this is a result of either natal
anoxia or an excess of testosterone in utero. That's why I
said what I said. I am not saying that there is an evolutionary
embryonic influence either - where did you get that? You seem
to have degenerated into pseudo-academic babble.
>
> I still think that there is no evidence that the two causes
> of chirality that I mentioned are not accurate, though in
> the case of identical twins the chemical environment in the
> womb is clearly more complex adding an additional reason
> for left-handedness.
Nonsense. If I want arguments like this I'll go back to
discussing the 10 (or was it 12) chemicals that McDonalds
allegedly adds to lettuce with Doug.
-sue
Rainer Thonnes
In article <854101...@psyche.demon.co.uk>,
pe...@psyche.demon.co.uk ("Peter H.M. Brooks") writes:
> s00...@discover.wright.edu "RANDA MURPHY" writes:
>
> > Anyway, I am a bit miffed that someone could even suggest that the reason
> > the other twin is left handed is due to a lack of oxygen while in the
> > womb...this is ridiculous...To imply such evil is to say that lefthander
> > are a result of a birth defect...
> >
> one cause of left-handedness, left-handers who are caused this way tend
> not to be very bright. The other method by which they are formed is
> by an excess of testosterone in the womb, which tends to increase
> intelligence as well as cause left-handedness.
Cor, that'll have'em baying for your blood if nothing else will.
After all, it's but a small step from "testosterone in the womb
increases intelligence" to "men are more intelligent than women".
scoop
In article <32ee13d7...@kew.globalnet.co.uk>, Bill Oakey
<bill...@enterprise.net> writes
>
>This fascism has to stop, it is an outrage and the next stage of this
>process will be arresting men who dress to the left and then where
>will we all be?.
>
is this common?
>
>
>
--
scoop
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Spence Shultz
RANDA MURPHY <s00...@discover.wright.edu> wrote:
>Hi...I just wanted to make sure I was understanding something right...
>I just read a posting in which it appeared to me, that someone was trying
>to formulate a reason for "mirror" twins...mirror twins are identical
>twins that when facing each other, they appear to be looking in a
>mirror...this carrys over to outward genetic things as well...not just
>which hand they write with. For example...the mirror twins maybe one
>lefty and the other righty...one may have a birth mark or a mole on there
>left thigh while the other has one on the right...
>Anyway, I am a bit miffed that someone could even suggest that the reason
>the other twin is left handed is due to a lack of oxygen while in the
>womb...this is ridiculous...To imply such evil is to say that lefthander
>are a result of a birth defect...if that's the case then all of us
>lefthanders should recieve social security!!!!
>Did anyone else see this!!! WAS anyone else outraged!!!
>Randa
From what I've read in The Left-hander Syndrome by Stanley Coren (The Free Press,1992),
*some* left-handedness may be the result of a brain injury or defect, just as *some*
right-handedness may be the result of a similar problem on the other side of the brain.
I doubt that *most* left-handers are the result of defect or injury, however. The one
lefty for every eight individuals is too similar to other genetic trends. I hope the
Human Genome project (which is mapping the human genetic structure) will be able to shed
more light in this area in the years ahead.
[Short book review: Although I feel many of the assumptions, conclusions, and
methodologies used by Coren and his researchers are flawed, I still recommend his book as
a starting point for lefties pursuing information about our trait. You'll especially
enjoy Coren's comments regarding the online discussion of left-handedness, including those
found in the alt.lefthanders newsgroup. Incidentally, Coren (a right-hander) is a strong
advocate for "a change in the way the right-handed majority threats its left-handed
minority to eliminate the risks left-handers face." He has some practical suggestions on
how this change can be accomplished.]
Spence (a lefty)
spe...@sprintmail.com
Windsor Press Club
scoop <ma...@pygmy.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<i9DXmCAH...@pygmy.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <32ee13d7...@kew.globalnet.co.uk>, Bill Oakey
> <bill...@enterprise.net> writes
> >
> >This fascism has to stop, it is an outrage and the next stage of this
> >process will be arresting men who dress to the left and then where
> >will we all be?.
> >
> Now there's an intresting thread, I'am lefthanded and dress to the right
> is this common?
>
I'm righthanded, but shoot left at ice hockey and bat left at baseball. Am
I genetically defective in some way or is this a lifestyle choice . . .
Timothy Jaques
Windsor, Ontario
jack...@aol.com fur...@netcore.ca
(Posting from the Press Club of Windsor)
scoop
In article <32ee13d7...@kew.globalnet.co.uk>, Bill Oakey
<bill...@enterprise.net> writes
>
>This fascism has to stop, it is an outrage and the next stage of this
>process will be arresting men who dress to the left and then where
>will we all be?.
>
Now there's an intresting thread, I'am lefthanded and dress to the right
is this common?
>
>
>
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> Let's see, you have made two separate but related claims about the
> cause of left-handedness
>
> 1. It's caused by an excess of testosterone in the womb
> 2. or brain damage at birth
>
No, it is as above. I don't know how hard you work at wilful misunderstanding,
but it certainly doesn't seem accidental.
>
> You have made the 1st claim more often than the second, and the
> first is the one I'm addressing. If some percentage of identical
>
Only in response to discussion, not as any indication of ratio of
occurance.
>
> twins exhibit chirality, as you so charmingly term it, to the
> extent that their internal organs are mirrored, well fuck me if
> I am going to believe that this is a result of either natal
> anoxia or an excess of testosterone in utero. That's why I
> said what I said. I am not saying that there is an evolutionary
> embryonic influence either - where did you get that? You seem
> to have degenerated into pseudo-academic babble.
>
No, lass. I was interested to hear of the phenomenon, and wondered
what the cause might be.
>
> >
> > I still think that there is no evidence that the two causes
> > of chirality that I mentioned are not accurate, though in
> > the case of identical twins the chemical environment in the
> > womb is clearly more complex adding an additional reason
> > for left-handedness.
>
> Nonsense. If I want arguments like this I'll go back to
> discussing the 10 (or was it 12) chemicals that McDonalds
> allegedly adds to lettuce with Doug.
>
Don't be silly. Since foetal gonads contribute to the androgens
in the womb, twins [even of the same sex] are likely to make
the determination of probable exposure to them more complex.
A fairly simple point, I would have thought.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Jim P.
Comes from how men's to womens clothing is designed.
In article <7nRxAKAP...@pygmy.demon.co.uk>, ma...@pygmy.demon.co.uk
says...
--
Jim P.
mailto://jim...@dnaco.net
Visit my home page at http://www.dnaco.net/~jimpen/index.html
or Visit the Darwin Awards at http://www.dnaco.net/~jimpen/darwin.html
Charlie Bond
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> The other method by which they are formed is
> by an excess of testosterone in the womb, which tends to increase
> intelligence as well as cause left-handedness.
Are you saying my Mum's got a moustache? Outside Now!
Charlie
Bob Glaubitz
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.970121145008.2138C-100000@sun005>
> s00...@discover.wright.edu "RANDA MURPHY" writes:
>
> >
> > Anyway, I am a bit miffed that someone could even suggest that the reason
> > the other twin is left handed is due to a lack of oxygen while in the
> > womb...this is ridiculous...To imply such evil is to say that lefthander
> > are a result of a birth defect...if that's the case then all of us
> > lefthanders should recieve social security!!!!
> >
> one cause of left-handedness, left-handers who are caused this way tend
> by an excess of testosterone in the womb, which tends to increase
> intelligence as well as cause left-handedness.
>
> Peter H.M. Brooks
Hey Peter...
Do you suppose that is why the word sinister means left!!!!!
Sinister Bob
John E. Karro
: I'm righthanded, but shoot left at ice hockey and bat left at baseball. Am
: I genetically defective in some way or is this a lifestyle choice . . .
Thats funny. I'm lefthanded, but shoot right at ice hocket and bet
left a baseball. Prehaps half of each of our brains were switched at
birth? :)
--
//*******************************************************************//
// John Karro Graduate Student //
// ka...@virginia.edu Department of Computer Science //
// (804) 982-2291 University of Virginia //
//*******************************************************************//
Sue Spence
Spence Shultz wrote:
> Sue Spence <s...@pennine.com> wrote:
> >Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> >> "Sue Spence" writes:
> >> > I still want to know how you explain the left-handed half of
> >> > a set of mirror twins. I don't think they can be explained
> >> > away by either of your two favored hypotheses, although I
> >> > will grant you that they most likely became left-handed in
> >> > the womb (since the zygote probably divides into two in
> >> > that location).
> >> >
> >> I am not quite sure what you mean by 'mirror' twins. If twins are
> >> identical, it is unlikely that their development will be different
> [Snip]
> >One twin will be right-handed, one left-handed. The degrees of
> >mirroring are not always the same from one set to another, but
> >everything from hair whorls to internal organs may be mirrored.
> >This gives your assertion that testosterone & oxygen-deprivation
> >at birth are the only two causes of left-handedness a bit of a flat
> >tire.
>
> a left hander as one of the pair? In other words, out of these 8
> people, is one of them left handed?
> If that is the case, the percentage of left handers (12.5%) in the
> monozygotic twin pool (I just had to say that) is about what the
> lefty prevalence is in the general public.
Not so fast cowboy, this 12.5% only includes lefties who are part of
"mirror twin" pairs. Some percentage of identical twins are both
left-handed, but I don't know what the number is.
> It would seem that "mirroring" might not be a significant factor
> in determining hand preference within twin pairs. Therefore,
> opposing hand preferences probably shouldn't be used to indicate
> that a twin pair is "mirrored."
I never said that mirroring was in fact the significant factor.
I merely pointed out the phenomenon because it seems to me to
rule out brain damage or a high-testosterone cause of left-handedness
FOR THESE PARTICULAR LEFTIES. The person who started this thread
holds that these two things are the sole cause of left-handedness.
Before anyone else gets too excited by Peter Brooks' seemingly-rash
statements I'd like to say that he is also left-handed. He isn't
"picking" on left-handed people.
>
> If the cause of our "lefty-ness" is dominantly genetic, in those
> cases where one twin is left-handed, wouldn't the other twin be
> more prone to be a lefty, too? Has this correlation been observed?
Yes. See http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol2/left.html
The author cites a paper in which twin studies over 50 years
were analyzed. Apparently of the twin pairs in which both might
be expected to be left-handed (I assume this covers all pairs in
which one twin is a lefty), 76% were dual lefty pairs. I suppose
the other 24% were mirrors, but do not know.
> snip
>
> Spence (from the alt.lefthanders ng)
> spe...@sprintmail.com
I'd have answered this earlier, but I was participating in
this thread in the newsgroup where it originated, soc.culture.british,
so I didn't see your response until today.
-sue
Phineas Quimby
proportion of left-handers among gays? (At McMaster, I beleive.)
PQ
Jazmyn412
I've read "The Left-Hander Syndrome" by Stanley Coren, and although I do
not agree with some of his theories for why people are left handed, I do
appreciate his sympathy and understanding of lefties. I have thought about
this myself and I believe that society is very strong on emphasis of what
is "right or wrong", and anyone that doesn't follow the norm or style is
made to feel "left out" (think of fashion trends as an example and the
effect they have on mainstream society). Possibly because "everyone is
righthanded" makes an argument for those who see lefthandedness as "bad",
so that those of us who are lefties possibly didn't accept changing in
pre-school or kindergarden when asked to use our right hand instead. Maybe
if more people resisted back then from "being like everyone else" there
might be more lefties around today (ok, I'll get off my soap box now).
-Jazmyne
Madeleine I Lapointe-Millar
Hi
This is my first time and I am pleasantly surprised by the tone and level
of intelligence that seems apparent in the discussions, rebuttals, etc..
My son is lefthanded, as is my brother. My son is 8 years old, has
Tourette Syndrome and Asperger's Syndrome, among other things. Handy
labels, but his therapists just calls him eccentric, unique and brilliant.
He rarely writes and hates to do so. He either doesn't respond vocally or
talks a blue streak. He is often 'in his own world' , which would also
describe the way my brother was until his 20's. We are trying to fit the
"pieces of the pie" together and are wondering if or how his lefthandedness
impacts on his ability or desire to use written and spoken language.
Does anyone have any ideas or sources of information in this area?
Isabelle
MILIs...@msn.com
Mark Carroll
Isabelle - do post any information/references you get to the newsgroup at
a later date: I'm sure we'd be very interested to learn a little more
about such things! I'm strongly left-handed, am happy to spend a lot of
time in 'my own world', and suspect I have Asperger's Syndrome mildly.
Is there any correlation between it and left-handedness?
Good luck with your son, anyway. (-: Best wishes,
Mark
Rick Bowen
Leave it to a lefty to put the smiley backwards. (or should I say
forwards?) I never thought about it before! Ohh, sweet joy! Wait till I
get to screw with peoples minds at work. (-: Beautiful Mark. Thanks for
opening my eyes. (Serious. No tongue in cheek)
Rick
--
A lie, even minor, left unchallenged,
will be accepted by the ignorant and
uninformed, as the truth.
TSRA & NRA Life Member
Mark Carroll
In article <3301B2...@fastlane.net>,
Rick Bowen <rbo...@fastlane.net> wrote:
>Mark Carroll wrote:
(snip)
>> Good luck with your son, anyway. (-: Best wishes,
>> Mark
>
>Leave it to a lefty to put the smiley backwards. (or should I say
>forwards?) I never thought about it before! Ohh, sweet joy! Wait till I
>get to screw with peoples minds at work. (-: Beautiful Mark. Thanks for
>opening my eyes. (Serious. No tongue in cheek)
I'm glad you like it, Rick! Strangely enough, I've always done it because
I figured it would be more comfortable for the smiley to be looking down
at the text to which it pertains rather than up at it: my habitual
ascribing of human characteristics to inanimate objects is such that it
pains me to see gingerbread men being eaten! However, if people notice the
unusual orientation of my smiley, they always assume it's an expression of
my left-handedness, which is fine by me! (-:
Best wishes,
Mark
Tony Ramirez
My son is also left handed and has asperger's syndrome!!! I never
thought about a possible relationship between left handedness and
Asperger's syndrome. If you find any topics about these issues please
let me know.
jwal...@mindspring.com
What is Asperger's Syndrome?