Dr. William E. Hurwitz - The part of the story dopers tried to hide
Bud Dickman
Before he found Hurwitz on the Internet, Sylvester Boyd testified
Friday, Dec. 3 that he suffered 12 years with "constant, nagging,
unrelenting pain — just pain, pain, pain — it nearly destroyed my
life."
"I was at the end of my rope. It gets to a point where shockingly
suicide is not an option you're willing to dismiss," testified Boyd,
50, who suffered bone fractures, muscle and cartilage tears in his
back during a fall at an ice skating party he held for his daughter
about 15 years ago.
Boyd was not the only grateful patient.
"Dr. Hurwitz saved my wife's life, said Charles Barnhart, of New
Mexico, following his wife Molly Shaw's testimony last Thursday. "I
hope she got to the jury; I know every time she talks about it, it
gets to me."
[Top of Page]
PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
Hurwitz, 59.
But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
Kilee Hoskin's uncle, Rennie Buras of New Orleans, died in 1999, under
treatment by Hurwitz. "This man built planes and boats and things with
his bare hands," testified Hoskin, 25, during the third week of
Hurwitz's trial, which began Thursday, Nov. 4. "[Paramedics] thought
he was retarded, that's how the pills affected him."
Prescriptions Hurwitz wrote for OxyContin, including the 68,700 total
pills he prescribed for Bret McCarter and the 63,530 pills Hurwitz
prescribed for Kevin Fuller, led to illegal drug sales in Manassas,
other parts of Virginia and Tennessee, according to prosecutors.
More than 15 convicted felons, most from Manassas and many related to
each other, testified against Hurwitz.
"I think he enjoyed it. I think he lived vicariously through us,"
testified Timothy Urbani, 34, who faces 20 years in federal prison for
charges including conspiracy to distribute OxyContin and robbery of
OxyContin from a pharmacy. "At the time, I thought [the pills] were
helping me, but I'm in all this trouble now. … I wasn't there for my
kids for three to four years, now I won't be there for a long time."
Hurwitz's defense attorneys Patrick S. Hallinan, Kenneth H. Wine and
Marvin D. Miller called the convicted dealers "predators" who abused
the doctor's trust, lying about or exaggerating their pain to obtain
drugs from the nationally-known doctor who specialized in high-dose
opioid therapy for people with unrelenting chronic pain.
[Top of Page]
FOLLOWING 19 DAYS of testimony, from 63 witnesses for the prosecution
and nine witnesses for the defense, Hurwitz took the stand on Monday,
Dec. 6, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District
of Virginia before Senior Judge Leonard D. Wexler.
Hurwitz testified Monday that he showed all potential patients
literature suggesting that "opioid treatment is not for everyone."
"It was an attempt to discourage people from opioid therapy unless
they have exhausted other options," Hurwitz testified. "I wanted
patients to understand that treatment with opioids was a complicated
practice with risks."
Hurwitz, who closed his practice in December 2002, faces a 62-count
indictment, including charges of conspiracy to traffic in controlled
substances, drug trafficking resulting in death, drug trafficking
resulting in serious bodily injury, drug trafficking distributions,
engaging in continuing criminal enterprise and health care fraud.
Still posted on Hurwitz's Web site is a request to patients,
foreshadowing the possible 20 years in jail or more that he faces for
each count of the indictment.
"More than in most clinical circumstances, the failure of patients to
act intelligently, responsibly and honestly can lead to disaster,"
reads the Web site. "For all of these reasons, patients who undertake
opioid maintenance therapy should behave in a way that is beyond
reproach or suspicion in all matters relating to their use of
medications. Patients who are unwilling or unable to do so jeopardize
not only their own health and safety, but the health and safety of
other patients with chronic pain."
Advocates for patients with chronic, severe pain are watching the
trial closely. The treatment of pain is a human rights issue, said
Mary Baluss, director of the Pain Law Initiative, who has attended
most of the trial.
"I'm worried that high-profile trials will have a negative impact on
the treatment of pain," said Dr. Steven Passik after serving as a
witness for the defense.
[Top of Page]
THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL, prosecutors Rossi and Lytle emphasized that
Hurwitz deliberately ignored obvious "red flags" of abuse and
distribution, giving examples of patients who:
* Gave frequent excuses about lost or stolen prescriptions
* Ran out of medication early
* Tested positive for illicit narcotics
* Tested negative for medications Hurwitz prescribed
* Injected medications, which should have been taken orally
* Had track marks and ulcers on arms
* Showed cocaine rashes on skin
* Reported current or past addiction
* Were arrested for distributing Hurwitz's medications or illicit
substances.
Bret McCarter, whose street name was "Mav," testified that he smoked
crack before visits to Hurwitz so "I could look straightened out when
I made an appearance."
McCarter paid $15,000 to $20,000 a month to fill prescriptions for
OxyContin, Dilaudid and Methadone, he testified, and said Hurwitz
called him a "high-risk patient."
"At the end, he would always continue writing the prescriptions,"
McCarter testified.
Hurwitz testified that McCarter was one of his high-dose patients who
was treated for pain resulting from failed back surgery. McCarter's
mother wrote Hurwitz a letter saying she was subsidizing her son's
treatment, Hurwitz testified.
[Top of Page]
HURWITZ'S TESTIMONY was scheduled to continue Tuesday with prosecutor
Rossi's cross-examination, after The Connection's presstime. Defense
attorneys plan to introduce a few more expert witnesses, after
Hurwitz’s testimony concludes.
After closing arguments by the prosecution and defense, the jury is
expected to begin deliberations later this week.
Hurwitz's attorneys say he is not guilty of any of the charges, that
he cared for patients who could not get adequate care elsewhere.
ABOUT 50 PEOPLE including Hurwitz's two daughters, mother and two
brothers watched his testimony Monday.
"Imagine the feeling of betrayal," said his brother Kenneth Hurwitz,
senior associate with Human Rights First. "He has gone out of his way
to help people and give people the benefit of the doubt.
"It all seems so incredibly unjust. If he made mistakes, they were
mistakes that were out of his good faith and his attempt to help
people," Kenneth Hurwitz said.
From 1998-2002, Hurwitz, who has remained free after posting a $2
million bond, treated more than 400 people for chronic pain. He
testified that he terminated treatment for 17 patients, but sometimes
continued treatment for problematic patients that he thought he could
help.
"I believe all the patients have pain," Hurwitz testified.
[Top of Page]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SIDEBAR: Doctor's Story
Dr. William E. Hurwitz, of McLean, took the stand at his trial on
Monday, Dec. 6, at 10:45 a.m. Following questions from his defense
attorney Marvin D. Miller, of Alexandria, Assistant U.S. Attorney
Eugene J. Rossi's cross-examination of Hurwitz began at 4:50 p.m.
Rossi's cross examination continued Tuesday, Dec. 7, after The
Connection's press deadline. Hurwitz faces a 62-count indictment.
Closing arguments in his trial are expected to be presented this week.
ALEXANDRIA, VA, 10:45 A.M., MONDAY, DEC. 6
Dr. William E. Hurwitz began by answering questions from his attorney
about how he came to specialize in pain treatment and the difficulties
he had with it over more than a decade.
Hurwitz was sanctioned by the Washington, D.C. Board of Medicine in
1991. Trouble for Hurwitz occurred, he testified, after he prescribed
medication to one of his patients whose wife was dying of breast
cancer and provided a stock bottle of Percocet to a doctor in
Paraguay.
"The experience before the D.C. Board introduced me to literature
about pain as well as to people who were involved with pain research,"
testified Hurwitz, who volunteered as the medical director for Peace
Corps Brazil in the 1970s and practiced internal medicine in
Washington, D.C. from 1978-1991.
By that time, Hurwitz, who treated his first patient with chronic pain
in 1978, had five chronic pain patients.
"Having a patient with a problem focuses your attention," he
testified.
The number of patients he treated for chronic pain grew to 200 as his
understanding of treatment with opioid therapy grew, he testified.
"There is no clinical limit to what a patient may require to
experience relief," he said, addressing the very high doses of pain
medications he prescribed for many of his patients. "Opioid exposure
appears not to cause any damage."
But in 1996, Hurwitz's license was revoked by the Virginia Board of
Medicine and he was required to complete continuing medical education
in the pharmacology and physiologic actions of drugs, psychiatry and
addictionology and in record keeping and practice management.
When he resumed a practice specializing in opioid therapy in 1998, he
required patients to fill out a consent agreement form, letting
patients know they would be terminated if they abused medication,
illicit drugs, sought prescriptions from other doctors or sold drugs
that he prescribed.
"This gave me the flexibility to discharge a patient," he said.
Hurwitz testified that he counseled patients, alerting them to the
dangers of opioid therapy and the associated social complications and
financial burdens.
Hurwitz said his $1,000 initiation fee and his monthly fee, which
ranged from $125 to $250 during the course of his practice, covered
the cost of all visits no matter how many. "I wanted patients to talk
to me, and not to worry if they could incur further charges. I wanted
them to have open access to me."
He also trusted patients to monitor their own pain relief. "Pain
fluctuates from patient to patient, I believed my approach with
patients should be to give them freedom to control pain," he
testified.
By the fall of 2001, Hurwitz said he started ordering drug screens of
patients when he said he realized a percentage of his patients were
abusing cocaine and his prescribed medications.
"I didn't have a concept of red flags, I had concept of aberrant or
problematic behaviors."
"I was aware of the investigation of me beginning in early 2002,"
testified Hurwitz, who said he was "shaken up" by a number of his
patients' positive urine screens for cocaine use.
"I was wrestling with this issue, trying to reconcile how to deal with
these patients," Hurwitz said.
But abrupt termination was never a reasonable option, only tapering
patients down from high doses, he testified. "[Abrupt stoppage of
medication] subjects people to a form of torture."
Hurwitz announced the closure of his practice on Sept. 1, 2002.
4:50 P.M., MONDAY, DEC. 6
Prosecutor Rossi greeted Hurwitz on the stand.
"Good afternoon, Dr. Hurwitz."
"Good afternoon, Mr. Rossi," Hurwitz replied.
Rossi then referred to the 1996 order by the Virginia Board of
Medicine, which revoked Hurwitz's license in 1996.
"Stephen Bresko passed away on Jan. 15, 1996 in Pigeon Forge,
Tennessee. Is it true that he was a patient of Dr. William Hurwitz?"
Rossi asked.
"True," Hurwitz replied.
Rossi repeated this process for one other patient mentioned in the
Virginia order and with two of Hurwitz's patients who died between
1998-2002.
"From January 1996 to February 2001, you were prohibited from
practicing for 23 months. So in 39 months you had four patient deaths
and a patient come near death," Rossi said. "You averaged a death
every eight or nine months, true?" …
"The charges in this court order are eerily similar, if not identical
to many of the things we heard from patients and their records in this
trial, true?" Rossi asked
"The charges appear similar," Hurwitz said.
The Topic Police
wrote:
>Some past patients say Dr. William E. Hurwitz saved their lives.
Hey Bud, do you think anyone in talk.politics.guns really gives a
shit?
Bud Dickman
wrote:
>THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL, prosecutors Rossi and Lytle emphasized that
>Hurwitz deliberately ignored obvious "red flags" of abuse and
>distribution, giving examples of patients who:
>
>* Gave frequent excuses about lost or stolen prescriptions
>
>* Ran out of medication early
>
>* Tested positive for illicit narcotics
>
>* Tested negative for medications Hurwitz prescribed
>
>* Injected medications, which should have been taken orally
>
>* Had track marks and ulcers on arms
Who was the clown that said to me "who said anything about track
marks?"
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>>* Had track marks and ulcers on arms
>
>Who was the clown that said to me "who said anything about track
>marks?"
The issue was whether there is an objective test for pain,
not whether some "drug seekers" show track marks.
BTW, many persons who have been thru the medical mill show
"track marks", which are non-specific. So do people who
regularly donate platelets, blood etc.. Likewise, many drug
seekers do not show any marks at all.
Dr P
Bud Dickman
No, the issue is if a doctor can tell if a person is really in pain or
a junkie who just wants drugs. How many people a year in the USA do
doctors kill through mal practice? This doctor had numerous confirmed
killes. If the doc was a drug warrior, I guess this would be called
colateral damage.
The ghost of Sergeant Rock
<johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:36:17 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
>A regular AB -rh donor, I have "track marks" frequently.
>***************************************************************
>
Ulcerated tracks from dirty needles?
Topquark
news:n533t0d4d1od6k4jr...@4ax.com...
> Some past patients say Dr. William E. Hurwitz saved their lives.
>
> Before he found Hurwitz on the Internet, Sylvester Boyd testified
> Friday, Dec. 3 that he suffered 12 years with "constant, nagging,
> life."
>
> "I was at the end of my rope. It gets to a point where shockingly
> suicide is not an option you're willing to dismiss," testified Boyd,
> 50, who suffered bone fractures, muscle and cartilage tears in his
> back during a fall at an ice skating party he held for his daughter
> about 15 years ago.
>
> Boyd was not the only grateful patient.
>
> "Dr. Hurwitz saved my wife's life, said Charles Barnhart, of New
> Mexico, following his wife Molly Shaw's testimony last Thursday. "I
> hope she got to the jury; I know every time she talks about it, it
> gets to me."
> PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
> Hurwitz, 59.
>
> But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
> 400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
> drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
> Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
>
> Kilee Hoskin's uncle, Rennie Buras of New Orleans, died in 1999, under
> treatment by Hurwitz. "This man built planes and boats and things with
> his bare hands," testified Hoskin, 25, during the third week of
> Hurwitz's trial, which began Thursday, Nov. 4. "[Paramedics] thought
> he was retarded, that's how the pills affected him."
Typical anecdotal bullshit. Like the old story of the kid who massacred his
family after taking marijuana.
> Prescriptions Hurwitz wrote for OxyContin, including the 68,700 total
> pills he prescribed for Bret McCarter and the 63,530 pills Hurwitz
> prescribed for Kevin Fuller, led to illegal drug sales in Manassas,
> other parts of Virginia and Tennessee, according to prosecutors.
> More than 15 convicted felons, most from Manassas and many related to
> each other, testified against Hurwitz.
The testimony of convicted felons is notoriously unreliable. In order to
make a case, the cops typically grab a few felons and threaten them with
further charges unless they testify the way the cops tell them to.
Even if OxyContin did get into the street market, the net effect would
probably be *good.* Since much if not most of the harm from narcotics comes
from contaminants, impurities, and uncertainties in dose, a legally produced
pure drug lessens the dangers.
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:36:17 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>> The issue was whether there is an objective test for pain,
>>not whether some "drug seekers" show track marks.
>No, the issue is if a doctor can tell if a person is really in pain or
>a junkie who just wants drugs.
When you figure this one out, please let all us docs know...
> How many people a year in the USA do doctors kill through mal practice?
And the relevance of this is? BTW, it is spelled "malpractice".
> This doctor had numerous confirmed killes.
As somebody with training in both pathology and toxicology,
I do "cause of death" forensic work in tox cases. It doesn't
sound like any of the deaths here are connected with anything the doc
did. In fact, one of them due to acute pancreatitis, was
almost certainly secondary to alcohol.
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
(The ghost of Sergeant Rock) wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:53:58 GMT, John A. Stovall
><johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> BTW, many persons who have been thru the medical mill show
>>>"track marks", which are non-specific. So do people who
>>>regularly donate platelets, blood etc..
>>A regular AB -rh donor, I have "track marks" frequently.
>>***************************************************************
>>
>Ulcerated tracks from dirty needles?
As if it mattered. A colleage gave up being a platelet donor
because he got tired of being hassled by the cops for his "tracks".
One more unintended consequence of the War on Drugs.
Dr P
AH# 49 writes
>
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:49:35 GMT, Bud Dickman <BudDi...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:36:17 -0800, Peter H Proctor
> ><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
> >> The issue was whether there is an objective test for pain,
> >>not whether some "drug seekers" show track marks.
>
> >No, the issue is if a doctor can tell if a person is really in pain or
> >a junkie who just wants drugs.
>
> When you figure this one out, please let all us docs know...
Yer career as a "dr" is now so very limited if you don't know.
Bud Dickman
wrote:
In spite of that, the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the doctor
was guilty. Obviously there was more evidence that the testimony of
convicted felons.
Bud Dickman
What you ae doing here is no different than dirty cops defending dirty
cops. I would thik as an alleged doctor you would be outraged at this
man for what he has done to the profession yet you find excuse after
excuse to defend him. Clearly this man was a danger and had no
business practicing medicine yet you defend him. Amazing! This is the
kind of behavior tha tbrings the law down on doctors and makes it more
difficult for those in chronic pain to get treatment. Any decent
person should be outraged at Dr. Hurwitz.
Bud Dickman
<johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:11:16 GMT, TheGhost...@rocksGhost.com
>Obviously you aren't a rare blood type. Know what an AB -rh is?
>
Obviously you forgot :
* Gave frequent excuses about lost or stolen prescriptions
* Ran out of medication early
* Tested positive for illicit narcotics
* Tested negative for medications Hurwitz prescribed
* Injected medications, which should have been taken orally
* Had track marks and ulcers on arms
* Showed cocaine rashes on skin
* Reported current or past addiction
* Were arrested for distributing Hurwitz's medications or illicit
substances.about this part:
Bud Dickman
<johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:05:58 GMT, Bud Dickman <BudDi...@yahoo.com>
>Any decent person would consider what Dr. Hurwitz did wasn't any of
>their business.
>
>You must be the reincarnation of Mrs. Grundy, Anthony Comstock, Carrie
>Nation and Harry Anslinger all in one body to be so concerned with
>other people's lives. Or could it be you have no life of your own,
>not even one of quite desperation.
This guy is killing people & you could care less. Astounding. Then you
are a hypocrite for even offering an opinion.
shrikeback
Liar.
> & you could care less.
Liar.
> Astounding. Then you
> are a hypocrite for even offering an opinion.
I'd say you were a hypocrite for offering _that_
opinion. But that's just an opinion.
Bud Dickman
But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
4:50 P.M., MONDAY, DEC. 6
Prosecutor Rossi greeted Hurwitz on the stand.
"Good afternoon, Dr. Hurwitz."
"Good afternoon, Mr. Rossi," Hurwitz replied.
Rossi then referred to the 1996 order by the Virginia Board of
Medicine, which revoked Hurwitz's license in 1996.
"Stephen Bresko passed away on Jan. 15, 1996 in Pigeon Forge,
Tennessee. Is it true that he was a patient of Dr. William Hurwitz?"
Rossi asked.
"True," Hurwitz replied.
Rossi repeated this process for one other patient mentioned in the
Virginia order and with two of Hurwitz's patients who died between
1998-2002.
"From January 1996 to February 2001, you were prohibited from
practicing for 23 months. So in 39 months you had four patient deaths
and a patient come near death," Rossi said. "You averaged a death
every eight or nine months, true?" …
"The charges in this court order are eerily similar, if not identical
to many of the things we heard from patients and their records in this
trial, true?" Rossi asked
"The charges appear similar," Hurwitz said.
>> & you could care less.
>
>Liar.
>
>> Astounding. Then you
>> are a hypocrite for even offering an opinion.
>
>I'd say you were a hypocrite for offering _that_
>opinion. But that's just an opinion.
>
Try reading the facts of the case.
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
If you can objectively measure pain, surely you can tell us all
how to do it...
PHP
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>What you ae doing here is no different than dirty cops defending dirty
>cops. I would thik as an alleged doctor you would be outraged at this
>man for what he has done to the profession yet you find excuse after
>excuse to defend him.
Cutting thru all the prosecution BS, it is not really
clear how much, if any harm, the doc did here. None of the alleged
deaths were due to anything he did.
The main rap seems to have been that some of his patients
diverted their prescirption meds into illegal channels... This is
like prosecuting firearms dealers because they sell a gun that
eventually ends up in criminal hands or is used by someone to commit
suicide..
> Clearly this man was a danger and had no business practicing medicine yet you defend him.
A danger ? Again, cutting thru the presecutions BS, it is not
really clear how. Remember, at least one of the deaths was due to
alcohol consumption. So why aren't you complaining about whoever
sold him the booze
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
>400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
>drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
>Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
It is hard to get the exact details, but it doesn't appear
that any of the deaths were due to anything that Dr Hurwitz did.
As for "drug dependency", many persons will readily trade this for
some palliation. It should be their choice, not yours or anybody
elses.
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>>You must be the reincarnation of Mrs. Grundy, Anthony Comstock, Carrie
>>Nation and Harry Anslinger all in one body to be so concerned with
>>other people's lives. Or could it be you have no life of your own,
>>not even one of quite desperation.
>
>This guy is killing people & you could care less. Astounding. Then you
>are a hypocrite for even offering an opinion.
Again, there seems to be no evidence that any of the deaths
were attributable to anything the doctor did. And speaking of
hypocrisy, there was at least one drug-induced death, from alcoholic
panreatitis. Where is your range at the man who sold the alcohol.
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:49:11 -0500, "Topquark" <jrus...@XXyahoo.com>
>wrote:
>>The testimony of convicted felons is notoriously unreliable. In order to
>>make a case, the cops typically grab a few felons and threaten them with
>>further charges unless they testify the way the cops tell them to.
>>
>In spite of that, the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the doctor
>was guilty. Obviously there was more evidence that the testimony of
>convicted felons.
A jury is composed of 12 people chosen at random without any
special training in the problem at issue. The purpose of the jury
system is so that untimately questions of guilt or innocence are not
made by some gummit employee. I'll bet a jury of (e.g.) pain
control doctors or clinical toxicologists would have cme to a
different conclusion...
Dr P
Bud Dickman
The police, DA, Coroner, expert winenesses & jury all disagree with
you.
michael price
Date: 2004-12-28 13:59:44 PST
> <jrus...@XXyahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Some past patients say Dr. William E. Hurwitz saved their lives.
>>
> >> Before he found Hurwitz on the Internet, Sylvester Boyd testified
> >> Friday, Dec. 3 that he suffered 12 years with "constant, nagging,
> >> unrelenting pain - just pain, pain, pain - it nearly destroyed my
> >> life."
>>
> >> "I was at the end of my rope. It gets to a point where shockingly
> >> suicide is not an option you're willing to dismiss," testified Boyd,
> >> 50, who suffered bone fractures, muscle and cartilage tears in his
> >> back during a fall at an ice skating party he held for his daughter
> >> about 15 years ago.
>>
> >> Boyd was not the only grateful patient.
>>
> >> "Dr. Hurwitz saved my wife's life, said Charles Barnhart, of New
> >> Mexico, following his wife Molly Shaw's testimony last Thursday. "I
> >> hope she got to the jury; I know every time she talks about it, it
> >> gets to me."
>
>
> >> PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
> >> Hurwitz, 59.
>>
> >> 400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
> >> drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
> >> Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
Yet there is little evidence that people get addicted through using
pain medication. People previously addicted have been known to use
pain medication to get high but as far as I know nobody has become
addicted through taking medication for pain.
>>
> >> Kilee Hoskin's uncle, Rennie Buras of New Orleans, died in 1999, under
> >> treatment by Hurwitz.
And no evidence was presented that showed that the doctors action caused
that death.
> >> "This man built planes and boats and things with
> >> his bare hands," testified Hoskin, 25, during the third week of
> >> Hurwitz's trial, which began Thursday, Nov. 4. "[Paramedics] thought
> >> he was retarded, that's how the pills affected him."
>
Or maybe that's his disease affected him.
>
> > Typical anecdotal bullshit. Like the old story of the kid who
> > massacred his family after taking marijuana.
>
Typical self-interested ancedotal bullshit. The family is presumably
due for some cash if the Doc's found to be negligent.
>
> >> Prescriptions Hurwitz wrote for OxyContin, including the 68,700 total
> >> pills he prescribed for Bret McCarter and the 63,530 pills Hurwitz
> >> prescribed for Kevin Fuller, led to illegal drug sales in Manassas,
> >> other parts of Virginia and Tennessee, according to prosecutors.
> >> More than 15 convicted felons, most from Manassas and many related to
> >> each other, testified against Hurwitz.
>
>
> > The testimony of convicted felons is notoriously unreliable. In
> > order to make a case, the cops typically grab a few felons and
> > threaten them with further charges unless they testify the way
> > the cops tell them to.
>
> In spite of that, the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the doctor
> was guilty. Obviously there was more evidence that the testimony of
> convicted felons.
That is not obvious at all. In fact rather then opposite seems to be
true. Nobody has produced any evidence that ought to convince a jury.
Bud Dickman
claytonvillanes
A jury of his peers?
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
> Yet there is little evidence that people get addicted through using
>pain medication. People previously addicted have been known to use
>pain medication to get high but as far as I know nobody has become
>addicted through taking medication for pain.
Well, it is possible, but fairly unusual, at least in the sense
that someone develops a "habit" that they can't get off of. People
get physiologically-addicted with some regularity during medical
treatment, then they stop and never go back. In fact, often
enough they may never even realize they were "addicted".
Turns out to produce the "junkie" phenomenon you have to go thru
repeated withdrawl and and bringing yourself out of withdrawl, which
is very reinforcing. Even then, the usual estimates that only about
10-15% of the population is susceptible.
>> In spite of that, the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the doctor
>> was guilty. Obviously there was more evidence that the testimony of
>> convicted felons.
>
> That is not obvious at all. In fact rather then opposite seems to be
>true. Nobody has produced any evidence that ought to convince a jury.
When they don't understand the technical issues, juries often make
their decision on the emotional aspects of the case... Like most
people, in fact.
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>> It is hard to get the exact details, but it doesn't appear
>>that any of the deaths were due to anything that Dr Hurwitz did.
>The police, DA, Coroner, expert winenesses & jury all disagree with
>you.
Not from what I saw. It looked as though none of the deaths
were related to anything Dr Hurwit did. Perhaps you have some novel
source of information that I urge you to share with us all.
Until then-- Remember, I am trained as both a forensic
pathologist and as a medical toxicologist. A pretty rare combination.
Cause of death in toxic injury is one of my special interests and
abilities. Do it all the time.
Interestingly, the one pain-control expert that the DA got to
testify for the prosecution testified in direct opposition to present
practice in pain control. Fact is, if you ship around and are not
very particular, you can generally find an expert to support your
opinion. I get "shopped" with some regularity...
Dr P
Bud Dickman
A jury of killers would most likely find another killer innocent.
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>What amazing stupidity.
Na, the stupidity was prosecuting Hurwitz. Who would want to be a
pain control doc now, when you get held to some impossible standard
by ignorant people on a mission from God. I wouldn't touch the area
myself...
http://www.mapinc.org/tlcnews/v04/n1806/a08.htm?232
" Doctors, pain patients and pain advocates across the country
expressed outrage over the conviction of the Northern Virginia
doctor's case. "Doctors have been given the notion that you, as a
physician, will be held criminally responsible if a patient turns out
to have a substance abuse problem or addiction," said Siobhan
Reynolds, president of Pain Relief Network. "How are they supposed to
know? The Drug Enforcement Agency seems to be requiring for physicians
to drug test all potential patients, to do background checks, and look
at fixable income to assure to protect themselves, if they were crazy
enough to treat chronic pain patients." The damage, Reynolds says,
will ultimately harm the legitimate patients with chronic pain, which
the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons estimates to be 50
million people. "The more they scare off the doctors, what happens to
the millions like me?" said Sylvester Boyd, a past patient, after
testifying in support of Hurwitz on Dec. 2. Molly Shaw flew from New
Mexico to Northern Virginia to see Hurwitz because doctors in her
state were too fearful to prescribe Dilaudid to her control migraines,
she testified. Dr. William Fleischaker, a retired physician, flew
from Arizona to be treated by Hurwitz. "Look what happens when law
enforcement sets the standards," Hallinan said. "What's the matter
with medicine?" "
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:55:40 -0600, Peter H. Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>> I'll bet a jury of (e.g.) pain control doctors or clinical toxicologists would have come to a
>>different conclusion...
>A jury of his peers?
Here is how the medical world feels about this decision:
http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=44346&paper=65&cat=176
" Ashburn's testimony in Hurwitz's trial has already caused "profound
concern" in the medical community, according to Dr. Russell K.
Portenoy, chairman of the Department of Pain Medicine and Palliative
Care at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York. Portenoy wrote a
letter stating that much of Ashburn's statements are "factually wrong"
or "serious misstatements of consensus in the field."
"We are deeply concerned that serious misrepresentations in the
testimony provided by the government's expert, Dr. Michael Ashburn,
will undermine the welfare of patients who suffer in chronic pain,"
wrote Portenoy, past-president of the American Pain Society, in a Dec.
10 letter to Hurwitz's attorney, Marvin Miller.
"Dr. Ashburn implies that opioid treatment of a patient with known
addiction is medically wrong and worsens the addiction. That is not
the view of experienced clinicians in the field. It is unacceptable to
promulgate the view that the disease of addiction automatically denies
patients with severe pain the possibility of relief through careful
opioid therapy," Portenoy wrote.
The jury specifically asked Senior Judge Leonard D. Wexler if
prescribing opioids to an addicted patient was illegal.
"Whether the physician thinks, suspects or knows that the patient is
addicted to illicit drugs is a circumstance you may consider in
determining whether the prescription of opioids to that patient is not
for a legitimate medical purpose or beyond the bounds of medical
practice," read a portion of Judge Wexler's response.
Miller filed a motion on Monday, Dec. 13 for charges against Hurwitz
to be dismissed, attaching Portenoy's letter in support.
Dr. Scott Fishman, chief of the division of Pain Medicine at the
University of California, agreed with Portenoy.
"I believe that Dr. Ashburn's comments do not represent a consensus
opinion of pain specialists. In my opinion, his views are inconsistent
with mainstream views of most leaders in the medical discipline on
pain medicine," according to Fishman."
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>>A jury of his peers?
>
>A jury of killers would most likely find another killer innocent.
Boy, you really do have a problem with us docs, don't you?
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>Peter H Proctor wrote:
>> >No, the issue is if a doctor can tell if a person is really in pain or
>> >a junkie who just wants drugs.
>>
>> When you figure this one out, please let all us docs know...
>Yer career as a "dr" is now so very limited if you don't know.
What do you mean by this? Just curious.. Perhaps you know something
I don't..
Dr P
flick
<snipped>
> PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
> Hurwitz, 59.
>
> But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
> 400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
> drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
> Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
If my math is right, almost 54 pills per day for each
of these 24 patients.
Yikes.
flick 100785
flick
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:04:55 GMT, Bud Dickman <BudDi...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>* Had track marks and ulcers on arms
>>
>>Who was the clown that said to me "who said anything about track
>>marks?"
>
>
> The issue was whether there is an objective test for pain,
> not whether some "drug seekers" show track marks.
>
> BTW, many persons who have been thru the medical mill show
> "track marks", which are non-specific. So do people who
> regularly donate platelets, blood etc.. Likewise, many drug
> seekers do not show any marks at all.
Full of crap. I regularly donate blood.
What with sterile needles and not being able to donate,
oh, 4-5 times a day, like the number of times a junkie
might inject... my "track mark" heals before the next
time comes to donate.
"...people who regularly donate..." <snort!>
You must be some idiot masquerading as a doctor. You
cannot possibly be a real M.D.
flick 100785
>
> Dr P
claytonvillanes
<d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
The cited spokesperson for the medical field, albeit, the experts in
pain management testified? Or is the above commentary provided
precedent to possible testimony for a retrial?
Eric Johnson
"Peter H Proctor" <d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
> As if it mattered. A colleage gave up being a platelet donor
> because he got tired of being hassled by the cops for his "tracks".
> One more unintended consequence of the War on Drugs.
>
> Dr P
Just curious, but how did he get hassled? ( I don't go around giving
close-ups of my under forearms to anyone.)
How were cops in a position to see his tracks?
ej
Eric Johnson
"Peter H. Proctor" <d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
> A danger ? Again, cutting thru the presecutions BS, it is not
> really clear how. Remember, at least one of the deaths was due to
> alcohol consumption. So why aren't you complaining about whoever
> sold him the booze
>
> Dr P
>
Booze is sacred. I heard talk show host Barry Farber become incensed when
someone compared marijuana to, "his beloved red wine." We went on further to
say there are gradations of evil, and according to him, alcohol, his beloved
red wine, was certainly on the lower rung of evil, likely because he does
it.
ej
Bud Dickman
Dishonest ones like you, yes.
Bud Dickman
In proctors eyes that just fine. Amazing.
flick
> And you know nothing about platelet donation, you can be donating
> every two days when donating platelets. I was doing this for a while
> when helping a very young leukemia patient as I'm a rare blood type.
The rules at my local blood bank are twice within seven
days, with 72 hours between donations.
Still a far, far cry from the number of sticks a junkie
would give himself.
'course, you guys in here would like drugs legalized
just so some stupid cop doesn't make a snotty remark to
a guy who's donating platelets twice a week.
Sheesh.
flick 100785
>
>
> ******************************************************
>
> "The National Rifle Association has been in support of
> workable, enforceable gun control legislation since its
> very inception in 1871."
>
> NRA Executive Vice President Franklin L. Orth
> NRA's American Rifleman Magazine, March 1968, P. 22
JohnR
JohnR
problem.
Peter H Proctor
Not unusual once tolerance sets it, which happens quite quickly.
This is one of the problems with bringing this in front of a jury,
who lack appreciation of the full extent of tolerance.
Methadone maintenance avoids this appearance problem by giving an
extremely potent narcotic with a long half-life.
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:37:34 -0600, flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>>If my math is right, almost 54 pills per day for each
>>of these 24 patients.
>In proctors eyes that just fine. Amazing.
Not amazing at all and well within the guideline for treating someone
with a lot of tolerance.. You see, I have a whole lot more training
and education in this area than you do.
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
>Peter H Proctor wrote:
>> BTW, many persons who have been thru the medical mill show
>> "track marks", which are non-specific. So do people who
>> regularly donate platelets, blood etc.. Likewise, many drug
>> seekers do not show any marks at all.
>
>Full of crap. I regularly donate blood.
Good for you.
>
>What with sterile needles and not being able to donate,
>oh, 4-5 times a day, like the number of times a junkie
>might inject... my "track mark" heals before the next
>time comes to donate.
Leaving a scar....
>
>"...people who regularly donate..." <snort!>
>
>You must be some idiot masquerading as a doctor. You
>cannot possibly be a real M.D.
I assure you I am. And a PhD also. And your credentials are?
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
>John A. Stovall wrote:
>> And you know nothing about platelet donation, you can be donating
>> every two days when donating platelets. I was doing this for a while
>> when helping a very young leukemia patient as I'm a rare blood type.
>
>The rules at my local blood bank are twice within seven
>days, with 72 hours between donations.
>
>Still a far, far cry from the number of sticks a junkie
>would give himself.
Generally true. But still a lot of "tracks". As I noted here, a
colleage stopped donating platelets because of a couple run-ins with
the cops. BTW, I was on the same platelet-donor program at MD
Anderson during my training. I still have the remnant scars 30 years
later.
>
>'course, you guys in here would like drugs legalized
>just so some stupid cop doesn't make a snotty remark to
>a guy who's donating platelets twice a week.
That is far from the only reason... The point was that "tracks" are
"non-specific".
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:13:36 -0600, Peter H. Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>>http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=44346&paper=65&cat=176
>>Miller filed a motion on Monday, Dec. 13 for charges against Hurwitz
>>to be dismissed, attaching Portenoy's letter in support.
>>Dr. Scott Fishman, chief of the division of Pain Medicine at the
>>University of California, agreed with Portenoy.
>>
>>"I believe that Dr. Ashburn's comments do not represent a consensus
>>opinion of pain specialists. In my opinion, his views are inconsistent
>>with mainstream views of most leaders in the medical discipline on
>>pain medicine," according to Fishman."
>The cited spokesperson for the medical field, albeit, the experts in
>pain management testified? Or is the above commentary provided
>precedent to possible testimony for a retrial?
My impression is that us docs got blind-sided by this case.
Perhaps the feeling was that Hurvitz's case was so good that no jury
could fail to see its merits<G>.
Now, no doc is going to chance his freedom and his career to
treat needy pain patients. Believe me, there are lots of other ways
to make a living as a Doc that don't present this hazard.
Too bad for the patients, though.. Divine justice would
limit the need for palliation of intractable pain to the people who
propagated this pig-ignorant policy. Unfortunately, that is not the
case.
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>On 12/28/04 10:23 PM, in article chj3t05r4leugiln0...@4ax.com,
>"Peter H Proctor" <d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>> As if it mattered. A colleage gave up being a platelet donor
>> because he got tired of being hassled by the cops for his "tracks".
>> One more unintended consequence of the War on Drugs.
>Just curious, but how did he get hassled? ( I don't go around giving
>close-ups of my under forearms to anyone.)
>
>How were cops in a position to see his tracks?
This is Houston. Nobody wears long sleeves... BTW, after the first
time, he got a letter from the platelet bank. After the second
hassle, he just gave up donating..
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>Booze is sacred. I heard talk show host Barry Farber become incensed when
>someone compared marijuana to, "his beloved red wine." We went on further to
>say there are gradations of evil, and according to him, alcohol, his beloved
>red wine, was certainly on the lower rung of evil, likely because he does
>it.
Every one of my friends and relatives that have died/developed a
serious dependency problem, it was alcohol or tobacco that did them
in... The numbers are pretty grim: 400K plus people a year dead
from them.
Right now, my ex-wife is dying of tobacco-induced small-cell
carcinoma of the lung. In fact, it was only by a miracle that she
survived to the holidays...
Dr P
claytonvillanes
Is replacing heroin, etc., with methadone, little more than
substituting one powerfully addictive drug with another?
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:14:40 -0600, Peter H. Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 05:53:40 GMT, Bud Dickman <BudDi...@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>Boy, you really do have a problem with us docs, don't you?
>Dishonest ones like you, yes.
Dishonest ? Why should I be ? In fact, absolutely
nothing could induce me to risk my life and freedom as a pain doc.
I have no dog in this particular fight, except a profound
anger at how the prohibitionists have throughly messed things up
because of their pig-headed and bigoted stupidity.. Partially,
this comes from seeing people die with terminal cancer.
Howabout your motivations ? If you are connected wioth the
justice system, perhaps you feel that your job depends on the WOD.
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:31:16 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:37:34 -0600, flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>>
>>Methadone maintenance avoids this appearance problem by giving an
>>extremely potent narcotic with a long half-life.
>Is replacing heroin, etc., with methadone, little more than
>substituting one powerfully addictive drug with another?
Pharmacologiaclly, they are essentially identical. The difference
but with these important differences:.
First, methadone is so powerful and produces such a high
degree of tolerance that it is difficult for any reasonble amount of
street drug to produce a "high". Thus paradoxically, it fulfills the
prohibitionist wet dream. Which is probably why it still exists.
Second, the steady action of methadone abolishes the
highly-reinforcing process of repeatedly going thru withdrawl and
bringing oneself out that produce the junkie phenomenon.
Not to mention the societal benfits of minimizing drug-related crime,
etc.
Dr P
AH# 49 writes
So you claim!
But Dr. Proctor!
You only WISH that you were a decent Doctor!
After all, YOU said that you agree with Frank Ney in the wishes that
the Police and all of their family members should be denied any pain
medications regardless, BECAUSE that quack DR. in question was
arrested for selling drugs illegally to known felons that weren't in
pain!
Do you have a similar OPERATIONAL "practice?"
Or do you just have that "degree" and in fact actually just wash cars
for a living?
jdgr...@my-deja.com
> Some past patients say Dr. William E. Hurwitz saved their lives.
>
> Before he found Hurwitz on the Internet, Sylvester Boyd testified
> Friday, Dec. 3 that he suffered 12 years with "constant, nagging,
> unrelenting pain - just pain, pain, pain - it nearly destroyed my
> life."
>
> "I was at the end of my rope. It gets to a point where shockingly
> suicide is not an option you're willing to dismiss," testified Boyd,
> 50, who suffered bone fractures, muscle and cartilage tears in his
> back during a fall at an ice skating party he held for his daughter
> about 15 years ago.
>
> Boyd was not the only grateful patient.
>
> "Dr. Hurwitz saved my wife's life, said Charles Barnhart, of New
> Mexico, following his wife Molly Shaw's testimony last Thursday. "I
> hope she got to the jury; I know every time she talks about it, it
> gets to me."
This is indeed a common problem nowadays: With all the anti-drug
hysteria, chronic pain patients are unable to obtain adequate relief.
And there have been a number of confirmed suicides because of this, by
the way.
> PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
> Hurwitz, 59.
>
> But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
> 400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
> drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
> Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
>
> Kilee Hoskin's uncle, Rennie Buras of New Orleans, died in 1999,
under
> treatment by Hurwitz. "This man built planes and boats and things
with
> his bare hands," testified Hoskin, 25, during the third week of
> Hurwitz's trial, which began Thursday, Nov. 4. "[Paramedics] thought
> he was retarded, that's how the pills affected him."
It's impossible to evaluate those sort of anecdotal, second-hand
reports. That's probably why prohibitionists, pigs, and prosecutors
are so fond of them. But what is known is that neither OxyContin nor
narcotics in general have any such effect in themselves. People can
and have taken heavy doses for decades with no ill effects.
> Prescriptions Hurwitz wrote for OxyContin, including the 68,700 total
> pills he prescribed for Bret McCarter and the 63,530 pills Hurwitz
> prescribed for Kevin Fuller, led to illegal drug sales in Manassas,
> other parts of Virginia and Tennessee, according to prosecutors.
> More than 15 convicted felons, most from Manassas and many related to
> each other, testified against Hurwitz.
>
> "I think he enjoyed it. I think he lived vicariously through us,"
> testified Timothy Urbani, 34, who faces 20 years in federal prison
for
> charges including conspiracy to distribute OxyContin and robbery of
> OxyContin from a pharmacy. "At the time, I thought [the pills] were
> helping me, but I'm in all this trouble now. ... I wasn't there for
my
> kids for three to four years, now I won't be there for a long time."
The testimony of an admitted dealer and thief has zero credibility,
especially since such testimony is routinely coerced by prosecutors or
police.
> Hurwitz's defense attorneys Patrick S. Hallinan, Kenneth H. Wine and
> Marvin D. Miller called the convicted dealers "predators" who abused
> the doctor's trust, lying about or exaggerating their pain to obtain
> drugs from the nationally-known doctor who specialized in high-dose
> opioid therapy for people with unrelenting chronic pain.
That is indeed almost certainly just what it was. And now they're
trying to weasel out of their culpability--and get a better deal from
the prosecutor--by blaming the doctor.
> FOLLOWING 19 DAYS of testimony, from 63 witnesses for the prosecution
> and nine witnesses for the defense, Hurwitz took the stand on Monday,
> Dec. 6, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District
> of Virginia before Senior Judge Leonard D. Wexler.
>
> Hurwitz testified Monday that he showed all potential patients
> literature suggesting that "opioid treatment is not for everyone."
>
> "It was an attempt to discourage people from opioid therapy unless
> they have exhausted other options," Hurwitz testified. "I wanted
> patients to understand that treatment with opioids was a complicated
> practice with risks."
>
> Hurwitz, who closed his practice in December 2002, faces a 62-count
> indictment, including charges of conspiracy to traffic in controlled
> substances, drug trafficking resulting in death, drug trafficking
> resulting in serious bodily injury, drug trafficking distributions,
> engaging in continuing criminal enterprise and health care fraud.
>
> Still posted on Hurwitz's Web site is a request to patients,
> foreshadowing the possible 20 years in jail or more that he faces for
> each count of the indictment.
>
> "More than in most clinical circumstances, the failure of patients to
> act intelligently, responsibly and honestly can lead to disaster,"
> reads the Web site. "For all of these reasons, patients who undertake
> opioid maintenance therapy should behave in a way that is beyond
> reproach or suspicion in all matters relating to their use of
> medications. Patients who are unwilling or unable to do so jeopardize
> not only their own health and safety, but the health and safety of
> other patients with chronic pain."
Sounds as if Dr. Hurwitz was especially candid and honest in dealing
with his patients.
> Advocates for patients with chronic, severe pain are watching the
> trial closely. The treatment of pain is a human rights issue, said
> Mary Baluss, director of the Pain Law Initiative, who has attended
> most of the trial.
>
> "I'm worried that high-profile trials will have a negative impact on
> the treatment of pain," said Dr. Steven Passik after serving as a
> witness for the defense.
>
>
> THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL, prosecutors Rossi and Lytle emphasized that
> Hurwitz deliberately ignored obvious "red flags" of abuse and
> distribution, giving examples of patients who:
>
> * Gave frequent excuses about lost or stolen prescriptions
> * Ran out of medication early
> * Tested positive for illicit narcotics
> * Tested negative for medications Hurwitz prescribed
> * Injected medications, which should have been taken orally
> * Had track marks and ulcers on arms
> * Showed cocaine rashes on skin
> * Reported current or past addiction
> * Were arrested for distributing Hurwitz's medications or illicit
> substances.
Notice this is what prosecutors "allege." The credibility of
prosecutors is only a little above the zero credibility of police.
A far-reaching study published in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette a few
years ago found hundreds of instances of police and prosecutors lying,
hiding evidence, distorting facts, engaging in cover-ups, paying for
perjury, and setting up innocent people in order to win indictments and
convictions. One former U.S. attorney, Robert Merkle, remarked, "It's
a results-oriented process today; fairness be damned. The philosophy
of the past 10 to 15 years [is] that whatever works is what's right."
> Bret McCarter, whose street name was "Mav," testified that he smoked
> crack before visits to Hurwitz so "I could look straightened out when
> I made an appearance."
>
> McCarter paid $15,000 to $20,000 a month to fill prescriptions for
> OxyContin, Dilaudid and Methadone, he testified, and said Hurwitz
> called him a "high-risk patient."
>
> "At the end, he would always continue writing the prescriptions,"
> McCarter testified.
>
> Hurwitz testified that McCarter was one of his high-dose patients who
> was treated for pain resulting from failed back surgery. McCarter's
> mother wrote Hurwitz a letter saying she was subsidizing her son's
> treatment, Hurwitz testified.
Another guy who is now trying to avoid his own blame by placing it on
Dr. Hurwitz.
> HURWITZ'S TESTIMONY was scheduled to continue Tuesday with prosecutor
> Rossi's cross-examination, after The Connection's presstime. Defense
> attorneys plan to introduce a few more expert witnesses, after
> Hurwitz's testimony concludes.
>
> After closing arguments by the prosecution and defense, the jury is
> expected to begin deliberations later this week.
>
> Hurwitz's attorneys say he is not guilty of any of the charges, that
> he cared for patients who could not get adequate care elsewhere.
>
> ABOUT 50 PEOPLE including Hurwitz's two daughters, mother and two
> brothers watched his testimony Monday.
>
> "Imagine the feeling of betrayal," said his brother Kenneth Hurwitz,
> senior associate with Human Rights First. "He has gone out of his way
> to help people and give people the benefit of the doubt.
>
> "It all seems so incredibly unjust. If he made mistakes, they were
> mistakes that were out of his good faith and his attempt to help
> people," Kenneth Hurwitz said.
Indeed. But justice is of no concern to the drug warriors. Their
interest is in inflating their statistics so as to justify their
useless existence.
> From 1998-2002, Hurwitz, who has remained free after posting a $2
> million bond, treated more than 400 people for chronic pain. He
> testified that he terminated treatment for 17 patients, but sometimes
> continued treatment for problematic patients that he thought he could
> help.
>
> "I believe all the patients have pain," Hurwitz testified.
>
> [Top of Page]
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SIDEBAR: Doctor's Story
>
> Dr. William E. Hurwitz, of McLean, took the stand at his trial on
> Monday, Dec. 6, at 10:45 a.m. Following questions from his defense
> attorney Marvin D. Miller, of Alexandria, Assistant U.S. Attorney
> Eugene J. Rossi's cross-examination of Hurwitz began at 4:50 p.m.
> Rossi's cross examination continued Tuesday, Dec. 7, after The
> Connection's press deadline. Hurwitz faces a 62-count indictment.
> Closing arguments in his trial are expected to be presented this
week.
>
> ALEXANDRIA, VA, 10:45 A.M., MONDAY, DEC. 6
> Dr. William E. Hurwitz began by answering questions from his attorney
> about how he came to specialize in pain treatment and the
difficulties
> he had with it over more than a decade.
>
> Hurwitz was sanctioned by the Washington, D.C. Board of Medicine in
> 1991. Trouble for Hurwitz occurred, he testified, after he prescribed
> medication to one of his patients whose wife was dying of breast
> cancer and provided a stock bottle of Percocet to a doctor in
> Paraguay.
>
> "The experience before the D.C. Board introduced me to literature
> about pain as well as to people who were involved with pain
research,"
> testified Hurwitz, who volunteered as the medical director for Peace
> Corps Brazil in the 1970s and practiced internal medicine in
> Washington, D.C. from 1978-1991.
>
> By that time, Hurwitz, who treated his first patient with chronic
pain
> in 1978, had five chronic pain patients.
>
> "Having a patient with a problem focuses your attention," he
> testified.
>
> The number of patients he treated for chronic pain grew to 200 as his
> understanding of treatment with opioid therapy grew, he testified.
> "There is no clinical limit to what a patient may require to
> experience relief," he said, addressing the very high doses of pain
> medications he prescribed for many of his patients. "Opioid exposure
> appears not to cause any damage."
>
> But in 1996, Hurwitz's license was revoked by the Virginia Board of
> Medicine and he was required to complete continuing medical education
> in the pharmacology and physiologic actions of drugs, psychiatry and
> addictionology and in record keeping and practice management.
>
> When he resumed a practice specializing in opioid therapy in 1998, he
> required patients to fill out a consent agreement form, letting
> patients know they would be terminated if they abused medication,
> illicit drugs, sought prescriptions from other doctors or sold drugs
> that he prescribed.
>
> "This gave me the flexibility to discharge a patient," he said.
> Hurwitz testified that he counseled patients, alerting them to the
> dangers of opioid therapy and the associated social complications and
> financial burdens.
>
> Hurwitz said his $1,000 initiation fee and his monthly fee, which
> ranged from $125 to $250 during the course of his practice, covered
> the cost of all visits no matter how many. "I wanted patients to talk
> to me, and not to worry if they could incur further charges. I wanted
> them to have open access to me."
>
> He also trusted patients to monitor their own pain relief. "Pain
> fluctuates from patient to patient, I believed my approach with
> patients should be to give them freedom to control pain," he
> testified.
>
> By the fall of 2001, Hurwitz said he started ordering drug screens of
> patients when he said he realized a percentage of his patients were
> abusing cocaine and his prescribed medications.
>
> "I didn't have a concept of red flags, I had concept of aberrant or
> problematic behaviors."
> "I was aware of the investigation of me beginning in early 2002,"
> testified Hurwitz, who said he was "shaken up" by a number of his
> patients' positive urine screens for cocaine use.
>
> "I was wrestling with this issue, trying to reconcile how to deal
with
> these patients," Hurwitz said.
>
> But abrupt termination was never a reasonable option, only tapering
> patients down from high doses, he testified. "[Abrupt stoppage of
> medication] subjects people to a form of torture."
>
> Hurwitz announced the closure of his practice on Sept. 1, 2002.
>
> 4:50 P.M., MONDAY, DEC. 6
> Prosecutor Rossi greeted Hurwitz on the stand.
>
> "Good afternoon, Dr. Hurwitz."
>
> "Good afternoon, Mr. Rossi," Hurwitz replied.
>
> Rossi then referred to the 1996 order by the Virginia Board of
> Medicine, which revoked Hurwitz's license in 1996.
>
> "Stephen Bresko passed away on Jan. 15, 1996 in Pigeon Forge,
> Tennessee. Is it true that he was a patient of Dr. William Hurwitz?"
> Rossi asked.
>
> "True," Hurwitz replied.
>
> Rossi repeated this process for one other patient mentioned in the
> Virginia order and with two of Hurwitz's patients who died between
> 1998-2002.
>
> "From January 1996 to February 2001, you were prohibited from
> practicing for 23 months. So in 39 months you had four patient deaths
> and a patient come near death," Rossi said. "You averaged a death
> every eight or nine months, true?" ...
>
> "The charges in this court order are eerily similar, if not identical
> to many of the things we heard from patients and their records in
this
> trial, true?" Rossi asked
>
> "The charges appear similar," Hurwitz said.
Olaf Gustafson
>Bud Dickman wrote:
>
><snipped>
>
>> PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
>> Hurwitz, 59.
>>
>> But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
>> 400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
>> drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
>> Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
>
>If my math is right,
it's not.
>almost 54 pills per day for each
>of these 24 patients.
>
it's roughly 43 (a little less, actually)
>Yikes.
>
>flick 100785
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>But Dr. Proctor!
>After all, YOU said that you agree with Frank Ney in the wishes that
>the Police and all of their family members should be denied any pain
>medications regardless,
In fact, I said that Cops and their loved ones are as much
victims of this situation as anyone else. Personally, having
seen people in really, really bad pain, I would not want anyone, even
you, not to get proper palliation. Besides, I believe justice
is in Gods hands-- some people better hope the athiests are
right<G>.
> BECAUSE that quack DR. in question was arrested for selling drugs illegally to known felons that weren't in
>pain!
Still waiting for you to tell us all how to objectively measure
pain...
Here is a Cato-Institute opinion on this case
http://www.cato.org/dailys/12-21-04.html
" None of the three patients' deaths were attributable to Hurwitz's
treatment or drugs prescribed by him. One patient's death is not even
claimed to have been drug-related; it was caused by the underlying
disease of pancreatitis. Another patient's death was undetermined and
the third case was due to a tragic error committed by a pharmacy that
dispensed morphine instead of the drug that Hurwitz had prescribed.
It was a small criminal element among Hurwitz's largely blue collar
patients whom he was trying to help that scammed him. Once they were
arrested, they turned against Dr. Hurwitz in a plea agreement with the
government to escape punishment.
Dr. Hurwitz's compassion greatly assisted the government prosecutors.
He did not immediately cut off patients he discovered were addicts or
had criminal histories. He took the position that the abrupt
termination of pain medication needed by patients would be "tantamount
to torture." Unfortunately, that was exploited by some.
More than 15 convicted felons mostly from Manassas, Virginia testified
against Dr. Hurwitz. His defense attorney Patrick S. Hallinan called
the convicted drug dealers "predators" who lied to the doctor by
inventing or exaggerating their pain to get drugs from him, only to
testify against him in return for reduced sentences.
Those felons and the government have done a great disservice to
millions of patients who suffer from intractable pain and to the
physicians who treat them. As a consequence of the Hurwitz trial,
doctors will now view every pain patient they see with suspicion and
as a potential criminal or undercover government agent. Pain patients
will now find it even more difficult to find a doctor willing to treat
them and risk the fate of William Hurwitz."
> Do you have a similar OPERATIONAL "practice?"
No dog in this fight. I selfishly value my career and freedom too
much to be one of those courageous docs who practice pain-control
medicine.
Dr P
claytonvillanes
<d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
As an aside, I note a theme that drifts through your commentary, that
a person who is contra to the drug use culture is somehow a
prohibitionist, "a pig," or whatever derogatory term you use. People
who have lived in and survived the elements of the drug culture, an
environ of degradation, crime and futility, have noted the generations
of panaceas that have not worked. A medically based policy may not be
any better.
claytonvillanes
wrote:
Dividing 1,879,677 by 24 = 78,319.875 per. Noting in the above
statement indicates that Rx's were written for 400-plus patients.
Dividing the 4 years of Rx's: 78,329.875 = 19,582.468 per year per the
24 patients. Since this is an average, some of the 24 received more
some less.
claytonvillanes
Morphine, a drug, kills? How much was used?
>It was a small criminal element among Hurwitz's largely blue collar
>patients whom he was trying to help that scammed him. Once they were
>arrested, they turned against Dr. Hurwitz in a plea agreement with the
>government to escape punishment.
So Dr. Hurwitz was unable to discern the differences?
>
>Dr. Hurwitz's compassion greatly assisted the government prosecutors.
>He did not immediately cut off patients he discovered were addicts or
>had criminal histories. He took the position that the abrupt
>termination of pain medication needed by patients would be "tantamount
>to torture." Unfortunately, that was exploited by some.
>
Again, the exploitation occurred and Dr. Hurwitz was unable control
it?
>More than 15 convicted felons mostly from Manassas, Virginia testified
>against Dr. Hurwitz. His defense attorney Patrick S. Hallinan called
>the convicted drug dealers "predators" who lied to the doctor by
>inventing or exaggerating their pain to get drugs from him, only to
>testify against him in return for reduced sentences.
>
Had Dr. Hurwitz had peripheral awareness that he was being singled out
by predators, could he have taken different actions, medically
speaking?
>Those felons and the government have done a great disservice to
>millions of patients who suffer from intractable pain and to the
>physicians who treat them. As a consequence of the Hurwitz trial,
>doctors will now view every pain patient they see with suspicion and
>as a potential criminal or undercover government agent. Pain patients
>will now find it even more difficult to find a doctor willing to treat
>them and risk the fate of William Hurwitz."
>
Are you saying the US attorneys were in cahoots with the felons?
Peter H Proctor
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:46:50 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
>>Here is a Cato-Institute opinion on this case
>>
>>http://www.cato.org/dailys/12-21-04.html
>>
>>" None of the three patients' deaths were attributable to Hurwitz's
>>treatment or drugs prescribed by him. One patient's death is not even
>>claimed to have been drug-related; it was caused by the underlying
>>disease of pancreatitis.
Actually, it was drug-related. The most common cuse of pancreatitis
is alcohol consumption.
>> "Another patient's death was undetermined and
>>the third case was due to a tragic error committed by a pharmacy that
>>dispensed morphine instead of the drug that Hurwitz had prescribed."
>>
>Morphine, a drug, kills?
Paracelsus: "Everythng is poison and there is poison in everything.
It is the dose that makes a thing a poison:""
> How much was used?
Unspecified. But in any case, the death was not caused by Dr
Hurwitz.
>
>>It was a small criminal element among Hurwitz's largely blue collar
>>patients whom he was trying to help that scammed him. Once they were
>>arrested, they turned against Dr. Hurwitz in a plea agreement with the
>>government to escape punishment.
>
>So Dr. Hurwitz was unable to discern the differences?
Can you tell a criminal walking down the street. Can you give us an
objective test for another persons pain?
>>Dr. Hurwitz's compassion greatly assisted the government prosecutors.
>>He did not immediately cut off patients he discovered were addicts or
>>had criminal histories. He took the position that the abrupt
>>termination of pain medication needed by patients would be "tantamount
>>to torture." Unfortunately, that was exploited by some.
>>
>Again, the exploitation occurred and Dr. Hurwitz was unable control
>it?
It is inherent to the job he was attemting to do. As another pain
specialist said, "If ther is no diversion, you are probrobably not
doing your job right". Live with it... The choice is do you get
your delicate sensibilities offended or do a lot of people suffer ".
>
>>More than 15 convicted felons mostly from Manassas, Virginia testified
>>against Dr. Hurwitz. His defense attorney Patrick S. Hallinan called
>>the convicted drug dealers "predators" who lied to the doctor by
>>inventing or exaggerating their pain to get drugs from him, only to
>>testify against him in return for reduced sentences.
>>
>Had Dr. Hurwitz had peripheral awareness that he was being singled out
>by predators, could he have taken different actions, medically
>speaking?
If it were me, "medically-speaking" I would never even have entered
the field. Try to find a pain-control doc now. How could he have
known? In fact, it may well have been illegal for him to try to find
out...
>>Those felons and the government have done a great disservice to
>>millions of patients who suffer from intractable pain and to the
>>physicians who treat them. As a consequence of the Hurwitz trial,
>>doctors will now view every pain patient they see with suspicion and
>>as a potential criminal or undercover government agent. Pain patients
>>will now find it even more difficult to find a doctor willing to treat
>>them and risk the fate of William Hurwitz."
>Are you saying the US attorneys were in cahoots with the felons?
You can't be serious. They do this all the time.. "Say what we
want on the wittness stand and we will go easy on you." In fact,
their manuals teach it to them. If anybody but a federal attorney
did it, they would be up for subordination of purgery.
The system is so rigged that "You could convict a ham sandwich
in federal court". The founding fathers recognized the potential
for abuse and strictly limited Federal criminal jurisdiction.
Note that the judge would not allow the admission of the DEA's own
guidelines by the defense. Another prosecutor maxim: "It is
easy to convict a guilty person. When you convict an innocent party,
you have really accomplished something".
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:24:05 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>> First, methadone is so powerful and produces such a high
>>degree of tolerance that it is difficult for any reasonble amount of
>>street drug to produce a "high". Thus paradoxically, it fulfills the
>>prohibitionist wet dream. Which is probably why it still exists.
>
>As an aside, I note a theme that drifts through your commentary, that
>a person who is contra to the drug use culture is somehow a
>prohibitionist, "a pig," or whatever derogatory term you use.
True, I use do use "prohbitionist" as a derogatory term, in
the same sense I would use "Damn-Fool". The others I don't use at
alll.
BTW, I am a 58 year-old PhD, MD toxicologist/pharmacologist.
Where do yuo get this "you people" nonsense. Evidently, you believe
that anyone who thinks the present situation is counterproductive is
some sort of doper. And without drug prohibiton there would be no
"drug culture".
> People who have lived in and survived the elements of the drug culture, an
>environ of degradation, crime and futility,
Drugs don't do this. Drug prohibition does this... BTW, the way
state this make me wonder if you or somene close has'nt had a
dependency problem sometime.
>have noted the generations of panaceas that have not worked. A medically based policy may not be
>any better.
Not really... E.g., try as I may, I can find no references to the
junkie phenomenon before drug prohibition. The continually
reinfocing ups and downs are what produce it,. Which is why there
is now methadone maintenance.
Dr P
AH# 49 writes
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:42:18 -0500, AH# 49 writes <GR...@BCComics.net>
> wrote:
>
> >But Dr. Proctor!
>
> >After all, YOU said that you agree with Frank Ney in the wishes that
> >the Police and all of their family members should be denied any pain
> >medications regardless,
>
> In fact, I said that Cops and their loved ones are as much
> victims of this situation as anyone else.
Liar!
You said that you agreed with Frank "I hate and fear all cops" Ney.
> Personally, having
> seen people in really, really bad pain,
Name one that YOU treated.
I saw people in "really really bad pain" as well.
But I never saw a legitimate doctor sell or give illegal drugs to
anyone.
HELL'S BELLS!
I damn near had my ankle torn off when I was helping a neighbor!
(bad evil sprain)
Did he perscribe a pain killer when I couldn't fit my foot into my
foot wear due to the swelling? Yuppers!
Did I take them?
Noop!
All is well!
> I would not want anyone, even
> you, not to get proper palliation. Besides, I believe justice
> is in Gods hands-- some people better hope the athiests are
> right<G>.
"God hands?"
Yer not a doctor. You just make an angry donald duck noise..
%$#@QUACK#$@!
IMHO, only idiots believe in "gods."
> > BECAUSE that quack DR. in question was arrested for selling drugs illegally to known felons that weren't in
> >pain!
>
> Still waiting for you to tell us all how to objectively measure
> pain...
That's the Non Sequitur, "dr.".
The quack in question was arrested for "ILLEGALLY SELLING ILLICIT
DRUGS" to idiots that were not in pain by ANYONE'S standard!
How many more times must this be explained to you?
How often do YOU give away medications to known felons that are drug
abusers, "DR."?
Where is your "practice" held?
Do you keep records?
Are you like "Rev. Shawn Cole" that claims to be a gun dealer, let
alone a Reverend?
Bud Dickman
They problem is that with you the person is tolerant till they OD &
die. I dont need a Phd to know that is bad.
Olaf Gustafson
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:35:58 -0700, Olaf Gustafson <no...@dev.null>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:37:34 -0600, flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Bud Dickman wrote:
>>>
>>><snipped>
>>>
>>>> PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
>>>> Hurwitz, 59.
>>>>
>>>> But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
>>>> 400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
>>>> drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
>>>> Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
>>>
>>>If my math is right,
>>
>>it's not.
>>
>>>almost 54 pills per day for each
>>>of these 24 patients.
>>>
>>
>>it's roughly 43 (a little less, actually)
>>
>>
>>>Yikes.
>>>
>>>flick 100785
>
>Dividing 1,879,677 by 24 = 78,319.875 per. Noting in the above
>statement indicates that Rx's were written for 400-plus patients.
>Dividing the 4 years
Fucking dumbass!
Olaf Gustafson
<d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>>So Dr. Hurwitz was unable to discern the differences?
>
>Can you tell a criminal walking down the street. Can you give us an
>objective test for another persons pain?
Apparently the test would be to check their criminal record.
Bama Brian
Most likely were. Reduced sentences or enhanced prison privileges for
their testimony. Remember, these 15 were supposed to be addicts. Do
you not think they would do anything to get back on the street and get a
steady supply of their favorite fix? It may also be that the addicts
were given permission to regularly see the prison doc so they could get
their "pain meds".
Deals like this are made all the time, even in allowing the guilty to go
free so the prosecutor who wants to make himself a name can get the big
fish.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>Peter H Proctor wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:42:18 -0500, AH# 49 writes <GR...@BCComics.net>
>> wrote:
>> In fact, I said that Cops and their loved ones are as much
>> victims of this situation as anyone else.
>Liar!
>You said that you agreed with Frank "I hate and fear all cops" Ney.
No I did not...
>> Personally, having
>> seen people in really, really bad pain,
>
>Name one that YOU treated.
>I saw people in "really really bad pain" as well.
>But I never saw a legitimate doctor sell or give illegal drugs to
>anyone.
Neither did I. You point is?
>HELL'S BELLS!
> I damn near had my ankle torn off when I was helping a neighbor!
>(bad evil sprain)
> Did he perscribe a pain killer when I couldn't fit my foot into my
>foot wear due to the swelling? Yuppers!
> Did I take them?
> Noop!
>All is well!
When I had oral work, the dentist gave me a script for a
Class-3 narcotic. I filled it and never used one because I did not
need it. Again, what is your point ?
>> Besides, I believe justice is in Gods hands-- some people better hope the athiests are
>> right<G>.
>
>"God hands?"
> Yer not a doctor. You just make an angry donald duck noise..
>%$#@QUACK#$@!
> IMHO, only idiots believe in "gods."
You better hope you are right....
>> Still waiting for you to tell us all how to objectively measure
>> pain...
>The quack in question was arrested for "ILLEGALLY SELLING ILLICIT
>DRUGS" to idiots that were not in pain by ANYONE'S standard!
How can you objectively tell whether someones report of pain
is authentic or not. I can't and don't know of any other docs who
can. Just thought you might be able to educate us.
> How many more times must this be explained to you?
>
>How often do YOU give away medications to known felons that are drug
>abusers, "DR."?
None that I know of. Actually, the safest thing for a doc is not
to give scripts for controlled substances to anybody,, just in
case... It is much easier to prove that you didn't write a
prescription than that the prescription was appropriate. Too bad if
the patient suffers. But that's their problem.
And yes, I am a physician....
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:33:43 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>>Not amazing at all and well within the guideline for treating someone
>>with a lot of tolerance.. You see, I have a whole lot more training
>>and education in this area than you do.
>They problem is that with you the person is tolerant till they OD &
>die. I dont need a Phd to know that is bad.
Because the doses are standarardized, there are very few
deaths involving medical use of opiate drugs. Hell, even with
street use, there are no more than 6-8K a year from all illegal drugs
This is about half the number of deaths from those OTC analgesics you
use.
Interestingly about the same number of people die every year
from malignant melanoma. This is almost entirely due to episodic sun
exposure. I don't see you trying to outlaw suntans...
Dr P
Peter H Proctor
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:11:12 -0800, Peter H Proctor
So you maintain that a criminal record automatically disqualifies a
person from receiving proper pain control? See where all this goes..
Dr P
Bud Dickman
<d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:36:58 GMT, Bud Dickman <BudDi...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:33:43 -0800, Peter H Proctor
>><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>
>>>Not amazing at all and well within the guideline for treating someone
>>>with a lot of tolerance.. You see, I have a whole lot more training
>>>and education in this area than you do.
>
>>They problem is that with you the person is tolerant till they OD &
>>die. I dont need a Phd to know that is bad.
>
> Because the doses are standarardized, there are very few
>deaths involving medical use of opiate drugs. Hell, even with
>street use, there are no more than 6-8K a year from all illegal drugs
>This is about half the number of deaths from those OTC analgesics you
>use.
>
> Interestingly about the same number of people die every year
>from malignant melanoma. This is almost entirely due to episodic sun
>exposure. I don't see you trying to outlaw suntans...
>
>Dr P
Defending this criminal doctor, you are no better than a dirty cop
defending another dirty cop.
Olaf Gustafson
<d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:53:01 -0700, Olaf Gustafson <no...@dev.null>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:11:12 -0800, Peter H Proctor
>><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>So Dr. Hurwitz was unable to discern the differences?
>>>
>>>Can you tell a criminal walking down the street. Can you give us an
>>>objective test for another persons pain?
>>
>>Apparently the test would be to check their criminal record.
>
>So you maintain that a criminal record automatically disqualifies a
>person from receiving proper pain control? See where all this goes..
>
As much as I loathe emoticons, I probably should have included one in
my earlier post.
>Dr P
Olaf Gustafson
wrote:
I forget - has this doctor even been convicted?
Not everyone who is accused is guilty.
Frank Ney
H. Proctor <d...@drproctor.com> to write:
> A jury is composed of 12 people chosen at random without any
>special training in the problem at issue. The purpose of the jury
>system is so that untimately questions of guilt or innocence are not
>made by some gummit employee. I'll bet a jury of (e.g.) pain
>control doctors or clinical toxicologists would have cme to a
>different conclusion...
All it would take is a jury composed of people with more than two brain cells to
rub together along with the ability to smell prosecutorial bullshit. A
condition the persecutor took great pains to see didn't occur.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
Government has four basic functions: Robbery, Rape, Slavery, Genocide.
The reason for this is that government, all government, is a criminal
enterprise. It has no legitimate purpose.
- Michael Bradshaw
http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle2004/tle298-20041121-02.html
United Airlines Must Die! http://www.dont-fly.com
Abuses by the BATF http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/batfabus.html
Frank Ney
Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> to write:
>>Ulcerated tracks from dirty needles?
>
>Obviously you aren't a rare blood type. Know what an AB -rh is?
Condoms are new and unusual to The Big Dick. Don't confuse him with blood types
and Rhesus antibodies.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
Wanna see real terrorism? Just 'hole up' in a 'compound' somewhere
in rural Texas while publicly asserting your rights under the first ten
amendments to the Constitution. You'll have terrorists coming out of your ass.
Frank Ney
H. Proctor <d...@drproctor.com> to write:
>> Clearly this man was a danger and had no business practicing medicine yet you defend him.
>
>A danger ? Again, cutting thru the persecutions BS, it is not
>really clear how.
I wonder how many double-digit IQ's the persecutor stacked the jury with?
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
"Unless you're in favor of legalizing all drugs, right now, then
watching [the missionaries killed by Peruvian drug warriors] choke
and scream and bleed and drown in some distant muddy jungle river
is exactly what you asked for, what you pay your taxes for, and what
you ought to have to watch on videotape every night before you go to
sleep." - Vin Suprynowitz, 06 May 2001
Frank Ney
Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> to write:
>> BTW, many persons who have been thru the medical mill show
>>"track marks", which are non-specific. So do people who
>>regularly donate platelets, blood etc.. Likewise, many drug
>>seekers do not show any marks at all.
>
>A regular AB -rh donor, I have "track marks" frequently.
So why don't you get harassed by the local Gestapo as a "junkie"? I'd figure
they'd be on you like a prostate cancer patient undergoing rad therapy in a
subway.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron -- more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to humankind.
-- Mirelle Stein, _The Productive Class_
Frank Ney
Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> to write:
>You must be the reincarnation of Mrs. Grundy, Anthony Comstock, Carrie
>Nation and Harry Anslinger all in one body to be so concerned with
>other people's lives. Or could it be you have no life of your own,
>not even one of quiet desperation.
Outside of gay porn, he had no life. Or a clue.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
Government has four basic functions: Robbery, Rape, Slavery, Genocide.
The reason for this is that government, all government, is a criminal
enterprise. It has no legitimate purpose.
- Michael Bradshaw
http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle2004/tle298-20041121-02.html
Frank Ney
nini...@yahoo.com (michael price) to write:
> That is not obvious at all. In fact rather then opposite seems to be
>true. Nobody has produced any evidence that ought to convince a jury.
This presumes you have a jury that is capable of reasoning, logical thought
processes. A condition I guarantee the persecution worked hard to prevent.
If you think I have no confidence in what is laughingly called the "Criminal
Justice System", you would be correct. To their credit, most cops have stopped
lying on the street with the "come out quietly and I'll see you get a fair
trial." Even they know there's no such thing.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron -- more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to humankind.
-- Mirelle Stein, _The Productive Class_
Frank Ney
H. Proctor <d...@drproctor.com> to write:
>"Dr. Ashburn implies that opioid treatment of a patient with known
>addiction is medically wrong and worsens the addiction. That is not
>the view of experienced clinicians in the field. It is unacceptable to
>promulgate the view that the disease of addiction automatically denies
>patients with severe pain the possibility of relief through careful
>opioid therapy," Portenoy wrote.
And you wonder why I want drug warriors in pain to be given a bottle of aspirin
filled with sugar pills and the cap glued on.
flick
According to my computer's calculator, if I take the
number of pills, 1,879,677 and divide by 24 (number of
patients), I get 78,319. Actually 78,319.875.
That would be the number of pills per each patient for
the entire four years.
78,319 divided by 4 is 19,579.75. Since I rounded the
last number down a little, I will go with rounding this
one up to 19,580. That is the number of pills per
patient for one year.
19,580 divided by 365, the number of days in a year, is
53.6438356... It goes on for a number of digits.
Where did I go wrong in this? 43 to nearly 54 is a
heck of a difference.
flick 100785
>
>
flick
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:42:24 -0600, flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Peter H Proctor wrote:
>
>
>>> BTW, many persons who have been thru the medical mill show
>>>"track marks", which are non-specific. So do people who
>>>regularly donate platelets, blood etc.. Likewise, many drug
>>>seekers do not show any marks at all.
>>
>>Full of crap. I regularly donate blood.
>
>
> Good for you.
>
>>What with sterile needles and not being able to donate,
>>oh, 4-5 times a day, like the number of times a junkie
>>might inject... my "track mark" heals before the next
>>time comes to donate.
>
>
> Leaving a scar....
>
>>"...people who regularly donate..." <snort!>
>>
>>You must be some idiot masquerading as a doctor. You
>>cannot possibly be a real M.D.
>
>
> I assure you I am. And a PhD also.
You cannot prove who the heck you are on Usenet.
flick 100785
And your credentials are?
>
> Dr P
flick
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:37:34 -0600, flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Bud Dickman wrote:
>>
>><snipped>
>>
>>>PROSECUTORS DON'T DISCOUNT the care some patients received from
>>>Hurwitz, 59.
>>>
>>>But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
>>>400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
>>>drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
>>>Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
>>
>>If my math is right, almost 54 pills per day for each
>>of these 24 patients.
>
>
> Not unusual once tolerance sets it, which happens quite quickly.
> This is one of the problems with bringing this in front of a jury,
> who lack appreciation of the full extent of tolerance.
>
> Methadone maintenance avoids this appearance problem by giving an
> extremely potent narcotic with a long half-life.
I know pain patients who are prescribed methadone.
flick 100785
>
> Dr P
flick
<snipped>
> Actually, it was drug-related. The most common cuse of pancreatitis
> is alcohol consumption.
Was that particular patient's pancreatitis definitely
caused by alcohol consumption?
Pancreatitis can also be caused by NSAIDs. Maybe the
NSAIDs that are in some of the pain meds that Hurwitz
overprescribed.
> Unspecified. But in any case, the death was not caused by Dr
> Hurwitz.
Prove it.
> You can't be serious. They do this all the time.. "Say what we
> want on the wittness stand and we will go easy on you." In fact,
> their manuals teach it to them. If anybody but a federal attorney
> did it, they would be up for subordination of purgery.
Sounds like what some attorneys say to 'experts.' "Say
what we want, and we'll hire you and pay you."
flick 100785
flick
When was the last time you saw a living patient for a
condition other than hair loss?
flick 100785
>
> Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>I forget - has this doctor even been convicted?
>
>Not everyone who is accused is guilty.
Yes. Much to us docs surprise, since he was only doing what the DEA
recently tacitly-approved, until they realized he might use this in
his defense.
Dr P
Mike Z. Helm
>>>>But the 1,879,677 pills prescribed by Hurwitz to just 24 of the
>>>>400-plus patients he treated from 1998-2002 led to drug addiction,
>>>>drug dependency and death, according to Assistant U.S. Attorneys
>>>>Eugene J. Rossi and Mark D. Lytle.
>>>
>>>If my math is right,
>>
>>
>> it's not.
>>
>>
>>>almost 54 pills per day for each
>>>of these 24 patients.
>>>
>>
>>
>> it's roughly 43 (a little less, actually)
>>
>>
>>
>>>Yikes.
>>>
>>>flick 100785
>
>According to my computer's calculator, if I take the
>number of pills, 1,879,677 and divide by 24 (number of
>patients), I get 78,319. Actually 78,319.875.
>
>That would be the number of pills per each patient for
>the entire four years.
>
How many years were there from 1998 to 2002? (Don't be too proud to use
fingers and toes ;-)
>78,319 divided by 4 is 19,579.75. Since I rounded the
>last number down a little, I will go with rounding this
>one up to 19,580. That is the number of pills per
>patient for one year.
>
>19,580 divided by 365, the number of days in a year, is
>53.6438356... It goes on for a number of digits.
>
I would have calculated it by multiplying 365 by 5 and adding 1 for the
leap year, but your approximation is close enough, especially
considering we don't know that it was from January 1 of '98 thru
December 31 of '02.
We also don't know what pills these were or the dosages or whether or
not it included replacements for "lost" prescriptions.
Peter H. Proctor
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:58:57 -0800, Peter H Proctor
><d...@drproctor.com> wrote:
>> Because the doses are standarardized, there are very few
>>deaths involving medical use of opiate drugs. Hell, even with
>>street use, there are no more than 6-8K a year from all illegal drugs
>>This is about half the number of deaths from those OTC analgesics you
>>use.
>Defending this criminal doctor, you are no better than a dirty cop
>defending another dirty cop.
I take this ad hominem as indicating that you have no real answer to
the numbers I give, if you even comprehend what they mean...
Dr P
Peter H. Proctor
>Peter H Proctor wrote:
>
><snipped>
>
>> Actually, it was drug-related. The most common cuse of pancreatitis
>> is alcohol consumption.
>
>Was that particular patient's pancreatitis definitely
>caused by alcohol consumption?
Quite likely.
>
>Pancreatitis can also be caused by NSAIDs. Maybe the
>NSAIDs that are in some of the pain meds that Hurwitz
>overprescribed.
Arguable. nsaid's don't show on most lists (
e.g., http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/37/4/565
Alcohol is the major cause
>> Unspecified. But in any case, the death was not caused by Dr
>> Hurwitz.
>
>Prove it.
Easy, none of the drugs that Dr Hurwitz prescribed cause
pancreatitis. Remember, cause of death in toxic injury is what I do
in court sometimes... And you?
>
>> You can't be serious. They do this all the time.. "Say what we
>> want on the wittness stand and we will go easy on you."
>
>Sounds like what some attorneys say to 'experts.' "Say
>what we want, and we'll hire you and pay you."
Sure. This is clearly what the prosecution's expert did. Made
$40-50K off the case. One reason the doc are up in arms about this
case.
Dr P
Frank Ney
H Proctor <d...@drproctor.com> to write:
> In fact, I said that Cops and their loved ones are as much
>victims of this situation as anyone else. Personally, having
>seen people in really, really bad pain, I would not want anyone, even
>you, not to get proper palliation.
Here we differ. In fact, I'm wishing that the pain amplifier from _Dune_ really
existed just so I could shove his ass in it and turn it up to "deep fat fry."
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
--
"Unless you're in favor of legalizing all drugs, right now, then
watching [the missionaries killed by Peruvian drug warriors] choke
and scream and bleed and drown in some distant muddy jungle river
is exactly what you asked for, what you pay your taxes for, and what
you ought to have to watch on videotape every night before you go to
sleep." - Vin Suprynowitz, 06 May 2001
flick
I used 4 because it seemed safest to assume that the
time period was not 1-1-1998 until 12-31-2002.
flick 100785
Frank Ney
Dickman <BudDi...@yahoo.com> to write:
>Defending this criminal doctor, you are no better than a dirty cop
>defending another dirty cop.
You know all about dirty cops, don't you pig?
Bud Dickman
wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:40:07 GMT, an orbiting mind control laser caused John A.
>Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> to write:
>
>>You must be the reincarnation of Mrs. Grundy, Anthony Comstock, Carrie
>>Nation and Harry Anslinger all in one body to be so concerned with
>>other people's lives. Or could it be you have no life of your own,
>>not even one of quiet desperation.
>
>Outside of gay porn, he had no life. Or a clue.
>
>
>Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
You seem to have a fixation on gay porn.
Bud Dickman
wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:36:42 -0600, an orbiting mind control laser caused Peter
>H. Proctor <d...@drproctor.com> to write:
>
>>> Clearly this man was a danger and had no business practicing medicine yet you defend him.
>>
>>A danger ? Again, cutting thru the persecutions BS, it is not
>>really clear how.
>
>I wonder how many double-digit IQ's the persecutor stacked the jury with?
>
>
>Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV
You would have been just another in the wood pile.
Bud Dickman
Tacitly approving an OD? Get a grip!
Bud Dickman
Kind of like you to my questions eh?