red light and right of way
Jay
green light and one sec later moved forward. I hit another car coming
out of nowhere making a left turn southbound. My insurance company
says I'm at fault unless I can prove that the other party made the
left turn when his left turn signal was red. Should I have complete
blame even if no one is sure if he made the turn legally? Because of
this incident I was cited for not yielding to the right of way of a
car already in the intersection. What is the best strategy to beat
this citation? Thanks
moocat
> blame even if no one is sure if he made the turn legally? Because of
> this incident I was cited for not yielding to the right of way of a
> car already in the intersection. What is the best strategy to beat
> this citation? Thanks
Check the laws, it is possible the car should have waited
until getting a turn arrow. He may have entered the
intersection on red. If not, then yeah, you may be at fault.
--
If you flame me, then the terrorists have won.
Christopher Green
news:<6D11451762F8C7CB.568DCBFC...@lp.airnews.net>...
Is your citation for CVC 21451(a)? "Any driver, including one turning,
shall yield the right-of-way to other traffic and to pedestrians
lawfully within
the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk."
If the other driver was completing an unprotected left turn, or
entered the intersection on green or yellow, you were required to
yield even though you had the green light. It sounds like you were
properly cited and held to be at fault unless you can come up with a
convincing argument that the other car ran the red light or was in
some other way driven negligently (e.g. excessive speed).
The way you describe the other car "coming out of nowhere" sounds like
you were inattentive, unless there was some problem with visibility at
the intersection. This doesn't convince me that you have the
credibility to make the case that he ran a red light -- but it's the
traffic court commissioner you need to convince.
--
Not a lawyer, and this is just my opinion,
Chris Green
Garry Wiegand
>Scenario: Los Angeles intersection. I'm going eastbound. I see my
>green light and one sec later moved forward. I hit another car coming
>out of nowhere making a left turn southbound. My insurance company
>says I'm at fault unless I can prove that the other party made the
>left turn when his left turn signal was red. Should I have complete
>blame even if no one is sure if he made the turn legally?
Car insurance companies love to make all kinds of simplifying assumptions
about what "probably" happened in various standard scenarios. They do this
because usually the only witnesses are the drivers and, in their experience,
the drivers all tend to tell lies.
>Because of this incident I was cited for not yielding to the right
>of way of a car already in the intersection.
??? That's bizarre. In California people do not get traffic citations for
events that were not witnessed by an officer. (I -assume- the officer who
wrote you the citation was not watching the incident.) All I think of is ....
the officer listened to -your- version of the events, and then wrote you the
ticket based on what -you- said. In other words, you got convicted by your
own words.
Hm. You've told us that the other car "came out of nowhere". After-the-red
left-turning cars usually don't just "come out of nowhere". Usually they've
been sitting there for a while. So there's an inference that you weren't
paying attention. Did you tell the officer either that you knew the other car
was sitting in the intersection, or that you forgot to pay attention?
This is important because: if the accident happened because you weren't
paying attention, then you are indeed at fault. No matter whether the light
was red or green. Green lights in California do not mean that you can drive
through things. You have a duty to yield if safety requires, even if you've
got the light.
Garry
Fred the Red Shirt
> green light and one sec later moved forward. I hit another car coming
> out of nowhere making a left turn southbound.
IANAL, etc etc.
'Out of nowhere' does not sound credible.
It sounds like the other driver was westbound, tried to
beat the light and failed to do so. But it also sounds,
based on your own description, like you took off without
checking to see if it was, in fact, safe to proceed through
the intersection.
'Right of Way' does not confer the right to collide with vehicles
that are in your way when you can safely and legally avoid doing
so and most states have a 'last clear chance to avoid an accident'
law to that effect.
Now, your story was short on detail and my inferences might be
different if you supply more detail but it sounds like the
other party probably ran a red light, would their light not
turn red befor yours turned green? Of course before you can
return to that intersection and verify that you will have
to figure out where the other vehicle came from.
'Out of nowhere' probably was not controlled with a traffic
signal.
> My insurance company
> says I'm at fault unless I can prove that the other party made the
> left turn when his left turn signal was red. Should I have complete
> blame even if no one is sure if he made the turn legally? Because of
> this incident I was cited for not yielding to the right of way of a
> car already in the intersection. What is the best strategy to beat
> this citation? Thanks
Tell the truth, accurately and completely. If they were westbound
and turned left while you were eastbound they were right in front
of you the whole time so you should know more than you have told us
so far.
If you can't 'beat the citation' by telling the truth, then the
facts must not favor you and the best strategy might be to say
nothing and hope the other party or the officer issuing the
citation does not show up in court.
--
FF
Timothy Horrigan
> green light and one sec later moved forward. I hit another car coming
> out of nowhere making a left turn southbound. My insurance company
> says I'm at fault unless I can prove that the other party made the
> left turn when his left turn signal was red.
There is a factual issue here in addition to the legal one: there is
some doubt about whether you did in fact wait for the light to turn
green before heading through the intersection. Also, legally you are
obligated to avoid hitting other cars, even if you have the right of
way: so there may be the suspcion that you saw the other driver making
a left turn on red and still proceeded through the green light as if
he wasn't there.
I was in an accident a while ago where I was the party turning left.
The party who hit me was going straight--- and he said I made a left
turn on red. I said he ran the red light (which is what actually
happened.) Our insurance companies fought with each other for a year
or so before agreeing to split the difference.
Fred the Red Shirt
news:<669B0A8A31B1A0F1.D062C4DD...@lp.airnews.net>...
> mba...@hotmail.com (Jay) wrote:
>
> ??? That's bizarre. In California people do not get traffic citations for
> events that were not witnessed by an officer. (I -assume- the officer who
> wrote you the citation was not watching the incident.)
Me too, but does the requirement that the officer witness the infraction
still apply when there is tangible evidence in the form of damaged
vehicles or injured parties?
E.g. IIRC, in Ohio officers ostensibly must witness an infraction
to issue a citation but they do it all the time at accident scenes
as well.
> All I think of is ....
> the officer listened to -your- version of the events, and then wrote you the
> ticket based on what -you- said. In other words, you got convicted by your
> own words.
>
Or he may be misusing the word 'citation' in refence to his insurance
company's decision to declare him at fault.
But yes, whenever one party tells an officer "I didn't see him." or
words to that effect an officer can be expected to rely on what the
other party says.
--
FF
Skip from LA
wrote:
>Garry Wiegand <gne...@ithaca.com> wrote in message
>news:<669B0A8A31B1A0F1.D062C4DD...@lp.airnews.net>...
>> mba...@hotmail.com (Jay) wrote:
>
>>
>> ??? That's bizarre. In California people do not get traffic citations for
>> events that were not witnessed by an officer. (I -assume- the officer who
>> wrote you the citation was not watching the incident.)
>
>Me too, but does the requirement that the officer witness the infraction
>still apply when there is tangible evidence in the form of damaged
>vehicles or injured parties?
>
Peace officers in California may issue traffic offence citations without
having witnessed the infraction, based on their investigations
of traffic collisions where there is physical evidence (e.g. tire marks
through the limit line where there is a stop sign) or based on
statements of witnesses.
Skip
David Chesler
> > My insurance company
> > says I'm at fault unless I can prove that the other party made the
> > left turn when his left turn signal was red.
>
> There is a factual issue here in addition to the legal one: there is
> some doubt about whether you did in fact wait for the light to turn
> green before heading through the intersection. Also, legally you are
> obligated to avoid hitting other cars, even if you have the right of
> way: so there may be the suspcion that you saw the other driver making
> a left turn on red and still proceeded through the green light as if
> he wasn't there.
I'm confused. Suppose I want to make a left turn at an intersection
and at such time as I and oncoming traffic both have the green light
I make a left turn, without regard to whether oncoming traffic
can avoid hitting me, and one of the oncoming cars broadsides my
passenger side. Are you all saying that since I didn't have a
red light the other operator is to blame, and not I?
--
- David Chesler <che...@post.harvard.edu>
http://www.geocities.com/chesler.geo/
(Still unable to post to moderated groups from AttBI)
Christopher Green
news:<3B5D8BC915CBB0C9.15F9FDD0...@lp.airnews.net>...
> I'm confused. Suppose I want to make a left turn at an intersection
> and at such time as I and oncoming traffic both have the green light
> I make a left turn, without regard to whether oncoming traffic
> can avoid hitting me, and one of the oncoming cars broadsides my
> passenger side. Are you all saying that since I didn't have a
> red light the other operator is to blame, and not I?
Not analogous at all: if you're making an unprotected left turn, even
if you're already in the intersection, you yield to traffic that
presents a danger.
But in the OP's case, he was stopped. He wasn't proceeding toward the
left turner at a speed and a distance that would have presented a
danger by making it difficult or impossible for him to stop: he was
already stopped and had only to look to see the left turner already in
the intersection in order to know that it was unsafe to proceed.
Now if the left turner wasn't in the intersection when the light
changed, that's a horse of a different color -- but nobody is claiming
that he wasn't.
--
Not a lawyer, but I've been on either end of a couple of these,
Chris Green
Fred the Red Shirt
news:<3B5D8BC915CBB0C9.15F9FDD0...@lp.airnews.net>...
> > > My insurance company
> > > says I'm at fault unless I can prove that the other party made the
> > > left turn when his left turn signal was red.
> >
> > obligated to avoid hitting other cars, even if you have the right of
> > way: so there may be the suspcion that you saw the other driver making
> > a left turn on red and still proceeded through the green light as if
> > he wasn't there.
>
> I'm confused. Suppose I want to make a left turn at an intersection
> and at such time as I and oncoming traffic both have the green light
> I make a left turn, without regard to whether oncoming traffic
> can avoid hitting me, and one of the oncoming cars broadsides my
> passenger side. Are you all saying that since I didn't have a
> red light the other operator is to blame, and not I?
They can be. I think the element in your hypothetical is where you
make your left turn 'without regard to whether oncomming traffic
can avoid hitting you.' If they cannot, you almost certainly would
be at fault. If they can, they may be at fault.
Suppose, to add some further elements:
1) You stopped in mid turn becuase you spotted a pedestrian in your
path in the southbound lane.
2) Your car stalled.
While the following may not be a legal principle in the strict
sense the following is a good philosphy regarding right of way:
Like love, the right of way is not yours to posess. It is yours
to give to others.
Besides, IIRC, you live in Massachusetts which has a reputation for
some really screwball traffic laws.
--
FF
moocat
>
> Peace officers in California may issue traffic offence citations without
> having witnessed the infraction, based on their investigations
> of traffic collisions where there is physical evidence (e.g. tire marks
> through the limit line where there is a stop sign) or based on
> statements of witnesses.
Exactly; pretty much everywhere, a drunk who hits something
and leaves the scene and isn't found until the next morning
(when he is sober) will certainly be charged with DWI.
Jay
I not sure if my previous message was posted?
I know I shouldn't hit another person's car and I have blame but my
focus right now is the best strategies in beating that ticket. My
thinking right now is to tell the judge that they can't prove beyond a
reasonable doubt that I hit someone making a left turn under a green
light due to the fact that even with a clear lane and no obstructions
he was still in the middle of intersection 2 seconds after my
greenlight. BTW I truly believe he made a illegal left turn.. but I
need to convice the judge that. Any thoughts on my defense.
David Chesler
> > I'm going eastbound. I see my
> > green light and one sec later moved forward. I hit another car
> > coming out of nowhere making a left turn southbound.
> 'Out of nowhere' does not sound credible.
True enough, but I've been the driver of the straight-going car,
and at a time when my level of alertness and reaction time were
barely safe for driving (I was sober, but tired) another driver
who thought her green was protected made a left turn in front
of me and I did not stop in time to avoid a collision. (This
was NY; I was operating an Electra, other party was operating
some Japanese econobox, and upon realizing she didn't have a
protected turn, that I hadn't gone through a red light, we
didn't file any reports. I took my grill out of her back seat
and re-attached it with a coat hanger.)
She didn't "Come out of nowhere" -- we didn't have transporter
beams back there -- but she was in my intended path sooner than
I was actually able to avoid collision.
> It sounds like the other driver was westbound, tried to
> beat the light and failed to do so.
See my story -- it can happen that a straight-goer hits
a left-turner.
> But it also sounds,
> based on your own description, like you took off without
> checking to see if it was, in fact, safe to proceed through
> the intersection.
If O.P.'s situation was like mine, it was apparently safe
to proceed when he took off into the intersection, but at a
future time it became unsafe.
> 'Right of Way' does not confer the right to collide with vehicles
> that are in your way when you can safely and legally avoid doing
> so and most states have a 'last clear chance to avoid an accident'
> law to that effect.
Speed and timing would factor into whether the chance was clear.
That's why I asked "I make a left turn, without regard to whether
oncoming traffic can avoid hitting me, and one of the oncoming cars
broadsides my passenger side. Are you all saying that since I didn't
have a red light the other operator is to blame, and not I?"
Chris Green <cj.g...@worldnet.att.net> responed to that one:
] Not analogous at all: if you're making an unprotected left turn, even
] if you're already in the intersection, you yield to traffic that
] presents a danger.
I didn't say my hypothetical was analogous, I propose that it could
be 100% the situation Original Poster had, stated from the point of
view of the left-turner. It seems to me that the left-turner who
"came out of nowhere" before OP hit him was (since OP had a green
light) making an unprotected left turn, and failed to yield when he
ought to have done so, creating a situation where OP not only had
the right of way but was unable to stop in time to avoid the collision.