lets see,everyone is the world is a loonie except the 3 stooges of lasik
hindsight
happen),then I must just be some kind of nut or loonie.I've been so
busy obsessing over my missed bag of complications,I never had time to
realize that I had just suddenly lost my sanity and all this was just
an over active imagination.Thanks snautrag,RT and marybell.A special
place in hell is surely reserved.....go for the burn.
RT
???? Have I just been told to go to hell?
I guess the saying is true, you know, about good intentions and all.
--
~RT
CatmanX
What did you do this time??? LOL
dr grant
Linda
RT was being sympathetic. This message seems to have gone over
hindsight's head. I understood what RT was trying to say. He was
pointing out that although people suffer Lasik complications, it is the
way that they put this across that is working against them. Correct me
if I am wrong RT.
Linda
lasiks...@yahoo.com
of communicating this message...
dom
RT
"Linda" <lindaken...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> RT was being sympathetic. This message seems to have gone over
> hindsight's head. I understood what RT was trying to say. He was
> pointing out that although people suffer Lasik complications, it is the
> way that they put this across that is working against them. Correct me
> if I am wrong RT.
Yes and no.
I do believe the personal stories are the most effective to get across
the seriousness of long term complications. Studies are abstract (pun
intended :) )--an effective message is one that comes from a personal
place. That said, the studies are illustrative enough without a lot of
the exaggeration (ie. concluding all LASIKed eyes are diseased) and
misrepresentation of the conclusions.
I also believe that the root of the problem lies in a conflation between
medicine and a cosmetic procedure. I feel strongly about this because
the hurt felt by many left with complications is often connected with a
deep feeling of being betrayed by a doctor in whom they put their trust
to "heal" "cure" their vision. The LASIK industry capitalizes on the
"medicine" of course, but it is a product. The problem is that this
product involves altering the human body.
There are actually several conversations going on:
1. angry people with complications who feel betrayed by the LASIK
industry
2. People who believe that the entire industry is flawed and should be
stopped
3. People who are targeting certain doctors or others in the LASIK
industry who they feel "harmed" them or others
4. People who feel completely helpless with what they have been left
with post-LASIK and who lash out at whatever happens to be in front of
them
I am obviously not coming from the angry, betrayed point of view. But I
am concerned about people who end up with complications, and I'm
concerned by the fact that I've done something to my eyes that cannot be
reversed and is enough in its infancy that we don't know the long term
effects.
I can't help those who have complications from LASIK already. I hope
they can find relief.
What I feel I can do, and what I feel strongly about, is educating the
public that LASIK is not about healing or curing. It is an elective
cosmetic luxury procedure. Accepting the industry for what it is helps
explain why it is how it is. I hate seeing people duped into believing
they are participating in medicine. It's about hiring a professional to
provide a service. The confounding issue is that this service is to the
human body.
--
~RT
Lasik Complications
I am shocked to hear someone actually say that he/she are "concerned
aout people who end up with complications.....that I've done somethint
to my eyes that cannot be reversed and is enought in its infancy that
we don't know th long term effects." I just hope that you are not that
young. Imagine being 22 and having lasik complications. I thank the
Lord that probably more than half my life is over so that I do not have
to suffer hopefully for very long. Just like you cannot help us,
neither can the doctors. The are permanently altering the eyes and no
one knows for sure what will happen with time. Only time will tell.
Unfortunately, as I have seen several lasik doctors, they all have the
same canned speech. They are all being trained by the companies
selling them the lasers and since the doctors invest up to thousands
and millions of dollars into these machines, they have to make the
money to pay for the machines. So it becomes easier and easier, oh you
are a borderline candidate, but I will not tell you, maybe you will be
lucky. Oh, did not make as much this month, this one may not be a good
candidate according to the manufactuer's safety and effectiveness
brochure, but the patient doesn't know about it and if anything goes
wrong, oh well, I will just say there is nothing wrong and it is all in
the patient's mind. Many of the first advertisements have been
pulled, changed or filed against because they were promising everyone
could throw away their glasses! Isn't that what Bush just said,
everyone having lasik is throwing away their glasses or contacts? Talk
about being in the dark! (or is he really in the dark?! I like your
last paragraph and if you really do that, it would help people look
more and think more about having lasik before having it. It is like
one family doctor told me, as long as people are willing to pay, the
doctors will continue doing it and as a matter of fact, most doctors
that I know are still wearing glasses. Funny, huh, doctors are selling
and promoting it as the best thing in the world but most of them are
keeping their glasses. I wonder why? Lasik Complications
CatmanX
"Just like you cannot help us, neither can the doctors."
It depends on what needs to be fixed. There is plenty that can be done.
"Oh, did not make as much this month, this one may not be a
good
candidate according to the manufactuer's safety and
effectiveness
brochure, but the patient doesn't know about it and if
anything goes
wrong, oh well, I will just say there is nothing wrong
and it is all in
the patient's mind."
Sounding rather cynical here LC. Do you really think most doctors think
this way? Actually I know one who does, but it is not just that it is a
slow day, he is like that every day. Most however are nothing like
that.
RT is quite correct in his statement about the types of person posting
The problems with the websites for the "victim" is that they become so
anti-doctor they lose all sense of reality. There is lots that can be
done for the remediation of Lasik patients, and more will come in time.
What needs to be done is to create a more effective treatment stream
for those with inadequate results, not just push them back in for more
surgery.
dr grant
Glenn - USAEyes.org
<gali...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>RT
>I am shocked to hear someone actually say that he/she are "concerned
>aout people who end up with complications.....
Why would it be shocking that someone expresses concern about people
with complications?
There are entire organizations of people devoted to helping people
with complications. We have a sister website at ComplicatedEyes.org
specifically to help people with complications. Several doctors
throughout the country set aside a portion of their time specifically
to help people with complications, often donating their time and
money. There are many, many people who are available and willing to
help those with poor outcomes.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
Ace
go back to glasses which doesnt correct all the problems but sometimes
helps. Others learn to deal with and manage their problems and work
around them. Those with poor night vision may buy extra light bulbs
around the house and leave all the lights on. I tell people to think
long and hard about lasik, especially if they dont need it, such as
those in the -2 range and under. I know too many people who had very
low pescriptions and werent dependant much on glasses who got lasik and
ruined their eyes. The risk/benefit is NOT worth it if you are seeing
fairly well without correction already.
A lasik complication is a bad thing reguardless of age, but for young
people, they have decades to deal with misery unless something comes
out to fix their problems. I know a few college people in their early
20s with bad lasik outcomes. It has affected the way they learn and how
well they learn because they cant clearly see the lecture board and
reading gives them eyestrain. I personally dont see the point of lasik
while in college when most of your time is spent looking at things just
inches from your eyes. Just take your glasses off! Hyperopia is a
different story but much less common amoung the young than myopia.
Lasik is indeed a luxury, but its also serious, risky surgury with
expenses. Too many people get lasik for no good reason, maybe they know
a friend or two or three who got it and they think its a piece of cake
akin to a haircut. Successful contact lens wearers are much less likley
to be happy unless their lasik goes perfect. Most people who get lasik
do so to reduce dependancy on glasses or because they can no longer
tolerate contacts. OrthoK should definately be the first choice by far
for anyone with less than -6 myopia and less than -3 astigmastim.
OrthoK can reduce moderate myopia/astigmastim and probably eliminate
mild myopia/astigmastim.
RT
"Lasik Complications" <gali...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> RT
> I am shocked to hear someone actually say that he/she are "concerned
> aout people who end up with complications.....that I've done somethint
> to my eyes that cannot be reversed and is enought in its infancy that
> we don't know th long term effects."
You're shocked because you've been influenced by people who want to set
up an adversary relationship between those who had successful LASIK and
those who haven't. Again, it's not an either/or; black/white world
(despite what Dr. G thinks--even in science). There are larger
communities of people and thought than what gets represented (or
through) on the internet.
> I like your
> last paragraph and if you really do that, it would help people look
> more and think more about having lasik before having it.
Having LASIK should never be an impulse decision.
Maybe there should be legislation in place to enforce a mandatory
waiting period, like one or two months from the initial consult before
the procedure can be performed. That way the consumer will have time to
process the benefit/risk ratio, study the consent form, ask questions,
and fully understand what they are committing to before they go for the
flap and zap. And the LASIK center can perform background checks on the
consumers to make sure they aren't born with a litigious, polarizing or
freak out gene (just kidding). Seriously--the LASIK Center can take the
time to evaluate the consumer to make sure they understand what they are
getting into and have reasonable expectations. And it will wean out the
people who want instant fabulous results because they won't be willing
to wait that long to have the procedure done.
But this is America, the procedure is performed on adults, so that will
never happen. As they say in New Hampshire, live free or die. It's your
right.
--
~RT
serebel
Ace wrote:
> I help some with poor results with my advice and opinions. Many of them
> go back to glasses which doesnt correct all the problems but sometimes
> helps. Others learn to deal with and manage their problems and work
> around them. Those with poor night vision may buy extra light bulbs
> around the house and leave all the lights on. I tell people to think
> long and hard about lasik, especially if they dont need it, such as
> those in the -2 range and under. I know too many people who had very
> low pescriptions and werent dependant much on glasses who got lasik and
> ruined their eyes. The risk/benefit is NOT worth it if you are seeing
> fairly well without correction already.
>
>
> A lasik complication is a bad thing reguardless of age, but for young
> people, they have decades to deal with misery unless something comes
> out to fix their problems. I know a few college people in their early
> 20s with bad lasik outcomes. It has affected the way they learn and how
> well they learn because they cant clearly see the lecture board and
> reading gives them eyestrain.
How is it that you conveniently "know" people who fit your little
fantasy stories?
>I personally dont see the point of lasik
> while in college when most of your time is spent looking at things just
> inches from your eyes. Just take your glasses off! Hyperopia is a
> different story but much less common amoung the young than myopia.
>
> Lasik is indeed a luxury, but its also serious, risky surgury with
> expenses. Too many people get lasik for no good reason, maybe they know
> a friend or two or three who got it and they think its a piece of cake
> akin to a haircut. Successful contact lens wearers are much less likley
> to be happy unless their lasik goes perfect. Most people who get lasik
> do so to reduce dependancy on glasses or because they can no longer
> tolerate contacts. OrthoK should definately be the first choice by far
> for anyone with less than -6 myopia and less than -3 astigmastim.
> OrthoK can reduce moderate myopia/astigmastim and probably eliminate
> mild myopia/astigmastim.
Ortho-K cannot do all that Ace thinks it will. If it did, it would be
popular, you know, like RS.
Ace
advances in contact lens and orthoK technology, including corneal
molding. Right now we have whats known as accelerated advanced orthoK
which can correct much larger amounts of myopia like -3 or -4 diopters!
It can even correct -1.5 diopters astigmastim! The majority of myopes
fall in the range which orthoK can treat. OrthoK has become sort of a
lost art, not enough optometrists practice it. OrthoK is much safer
than RS and provides better vision quality as well.
serebel
Ragnar
and an idiot.
Ragnar
And it wouldn't be a big comeback. It never did go anywhere in the
U.S. One reason for that is that in the U.S. there are so many whiney
idiots who file lawsuits whenever something doesn't go absolutely
perfect that something like OrthoK is never given a chance.
Ace
and an idiot."
If their lasik regresses they can either get more lasik or go back to
glasses.
"And it wouldn't be a big comeback. It never did go anywhere in the
U.S. One reason for that is that in the U.S. there are so many whiney
idiots who file lawsuits whenever something doesn't go absolutely
perfect that something like OrthoK is never given a chance."
Much more lasik lawsuits. Your reasons arent good
Ragnar
layers of the cornea which do not regenerate at all - hence no
regression. The only regression invovled with LASIK is very minor and
has to do with the healing of the layer of disturbed cells.
You really haven't got a clue what you are talking about and should
consider putting a cork in it.
Ace
wont stop your eyes from getting worse. Even a "stable" pescription
still usually changes but very slowly. However over 5 to 10 years, the
change is enough to start giving you blurry vision again.
serebel
Ragnar
At roughly the age of 20, the eyes stablize and that is the end of
your eyes getting worse - except for the continual loss of
accomodation.
You seem to have an aversion to LASIK. It is as if you are trying to
convince yourself that it is not good to justify your not having it
done.
Ace
after 20. My mom became more myopic thru her life. She was -4.5 at 18
when she started college, -6 when she finished college in her 20s. Her
eyes still got worse in her 30s and 40s and shes now -7.5
Its true your eyes slow down on myopia progression when your 20 but bad
vision habits, such as all the studying done in college induces more
myopia. I can find you hundreds of examples of people who regressed
after lasik. One lady was -1.5 when she got lasik and 3 years later she
is now a -1 and back in glasses. another was seeing great for 7 years
after lasik but then her eyes worsened and to this day, she wears -2.25
contacts. What will you do Ragnar if your eyes get worse again? More
lasik? Go back to glasses?
RT
"Ace" <acem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know alot of people whos eyes became more myopic and/or astigmatic
> after 20. My mom became more myopic thru her life. She was -4.5 at 18
> when she started college, -6 when she finished college in her 20s. Her
> eyes still got worse in her 30s and 40s and shes now -7.5
> Its true your eyes slow down on myopia progression when your 20 but bad
> vision habits, such as all the studying done in college induces more
> myopia.
My myopia got better while I was getting my doctorate. I read, write and
spend hours everyday with my face buried in a book or writing on the
computer. Why did my myopia stop in the -4s and then improve? Why was it
stable for years before LASIK and has remained stable after LASIK?
Everyday of my life I "study" considerably more than the average college
student. If your Mom is proof that college causes myopia, why then does
graduate school improve it? I'm proof of that.
Did you ever consider that progressive myopia causes people to study
more? Really, how can you prove that studying causes myopia? You take
Otis Brown's word for it after he read two studies on apes and chickens?
>I can find you hundreds of examples of people who regressed
> after lasik. One lady was -1.5 when she got lasik and 3 years later she
> is now a -1 and back in glasses. another was seeing great for 7 years
> after lasik but then her eyes worsened and to this day, she wears -2.25
> contacts. What will you do Ragnar if your eyes get worse again? More
> lasik? Go back to glasses?
Please list the hundreds. A simple numbered list will do.
Post-LASIK regression and myopic progression are not necessarily the
same thing. There are many reasons people's eyes regress after LASIK
connected to healing, flap etc. Much of it appears poorly understood.
Natural myopic regression is only one reason. Are you arguing that these
100s regressed because they study too hard? Maybe another LASIK
requirement is that once you have the procedure done, you must stop
reading and only participate in activities that exercise your long
distance vision. You wouldn't want to compromise the amount of money you
put into your procedure now by inducing more myopia?!?!?
I personally think the early 20s is too young to get LASIK. It is
important for anyone considering LASIK to realize that LASIK is not a
cure, only a cosmetic fix for your eyes at a given point in time.
--
~RT
Glenn - USAEyes.org
>If your Mom is proof that college causes myopia, why then does
>graduate school improve it? I'm proof of that.
More proof of the value of higher education.
8^)
Ragnar
about what their prescription is?
I would suggest that your mother gets checked for macular
degeneration. That is not adequately checked for in a standard eye
exam. Unless the doctor has some very expensive equipment, that
examination requires a full dilation and a skilled eye doctor to
diagnose. I once had a very good eye doctor tell me I had macular
degeneration and he was wrong.
If my eyes get worse, it depends on why they are worse. If cataracts,
then cataract surgery is required to remove the cloudy lens. If LASIK
had not been done first, no IOL would be sufficent to correct my eyes
after cataract surgery. I would also probably spend the money for
accomodative IOLs. If I just needed glasses to read, they would be
very cheap glasses I could buy at a drugstore.. they would be very
light, and only worn when reading.
Meanwhile, you are seeking out a plethora of foolish treatments while
downplaying LASIK. You can stop that anytime now. Just the fact
that Keller is patting you on the back should tell you that your
barking up the wrong tree.
Ragnar
the muscles that are attached to the eyes strengthen and result in the
eye shifting towards being myopic. People who read alot are working
those eye muscles alot.. resulting in even a larger myopic shift -
which is a big reason why studious people who read a lot often wear
glasses. Another reason is that if they didn't wear glasses, they
couldn't read the way they do. I know a girl who was very precocious
up until about age 9 - but has become progressively more myopic and
astigmatic. She can't see the T.V. if she sits more than 3 feet away
from it. Her grades have gone from A's to low C's. She is 16 now and
refuses to wear glasses and is too lazy and whiney to deal with
contact lenses. Her entire life is going to be a disaster because of
vanity. But that is out of my control. Unfortunately, as lazy and
dumb as she is, the only high paying job she can get is to be a cop.
If she was a male, she couldn't even do that because she is too small,
but they change the size and strength requirements based upon gender.
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:39:58 GMT, RT <RTM...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
Ragnar
that require a degree - and to have a degree makes one too expensive
to hire. With the vast information resources on the Internet (other
than this newsgroup) and on cable TV, one can get a superior education
without going to kolidge. For example.. give one kid a pile of
history books and stick the other kid in front of The History Channel
for a year... and see which one knows more history.
I don't like mentioning my ejukashun because I know other people with
the same degree I have who don't impress me at all. I am not
impressed by most doctors I meet.
My feeling is that at best, one goes to school not to learn... but to
learn HOW to learn.