Space after Mac/Mc?
Padraig Breathnach
>I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
>following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but not
>always.
>
>Moreover, given that Mac/Mc is a word, why shouldn't a space be used? We
>don't typically write "VanBeethoven," "VonTrapp," "ElGreco,"
>"AlHusseini," "DeValera," &c.
>
>Is this possibly a regional usage? UK vs North America? Scottish usage
>vs Irish?
>
Irish use is inconsistent. A majority leave no space.
The contracted form "Mc" is more common in Irish names than the full form
"Mac". it is my impression that Scottish names normally (maybe invariably)
use the full form.
PB
Padraic Brown
van and van de seem to vary in their usage. I've seen spaces used and
lack of spaces.
A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
(and Scotland)?
Padraic.
Padraig Breathnach (padr...@iol.ie) wrote:
: Troy Sagrillo wrote in message ...
Skitt
"Padraic Brown" <pbr...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:8s7k5u$14uh$2...@news.ums.edu...
> Spaces aren't used for Mac/Mc or O' in the US, to my knowledge. De, di,
> van and van de seem to vary in their usage. I've seen spaces used and
> lack of spaces.
>
> A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
> (and Scotland)?
After a while of knowing them, one can usually tell what sort they are.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
Nick-Durie
Troy Sagrillo <mesh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:meshwesh-1225C5...@mindmeld.idcomm.com...
> I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
> following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but not
> always.
>
> Moreover, given that Mac/Mc is a word, why shouldn't a space be used? We
> don't typically write "VanBeethoven," "VonTrapp," "ElGreco,"
> "AlHusseini," "DeValera," &c.
>
> Is this possibly a regional usage? UK vs North America? Scottish usage
> vs Irish?
>
Speaking as a Scot I have never seen it written without the name. As it
means "son of" it is roughly equivalent to all those somebody"son" which are
always written as part of a surname. I have seen the C in Mc replaced with
an apostrophe but I believe that is used in those names where the C is never
pronounced.
Padraig Breathnach
<...>
>
>A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
>(and Scotland)?
>
PB
Joseph C Fineman
>I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
>following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but
>not always.
The spelling of a name is subject to the whimsies & errors of the
bearer and all his or her ancestors in the male line. It is
unreasonable to expect consistency.
In the Boston phone book I see two Mac Adams and one MacAdam (or maybe
he's a Macadam; Verizon uses all caps for surnames), 10 Mc Cormacks
and 67 McCormacks. I would not presume to give advice to any of
them.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Where reasons are no reason, cause is true. ||
John O'Flaherty
> "Padraic Brown" <pbr...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
> news:8s7k5u$14uh$2...@news.ums.edu...
> > Spaces aren't used for Mac/Mc or O' in the US, to my knowledge. De, di,
> > van and van de seem to vary in their usage. I've seen spaces used and
> > lack of spaces.
> >
> > A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
> > (and Scotland)?
>
> After a while of knowing them, one can usually tell what sort they are.
Well, here in the U.S.A. we're not sordid at all.
john
MacDaigh
Nick-Durie <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> a écrit dans le message :
39e75...@news1.vip.uk.com...
> Speaking as a Scot I have never seen it written without the name.
me neither. but the common Mac/Mc names are anglicised version. the gaelic
form of the name can sometimes separate Mac fron the rest of the name. for
example, Macintyre = Mac an t-Saoir, MacNab = Mac an Aba, Macintosh = Mac
an Tņisich.
BTW the other peculiarity of the Macintosh and Macintyre names is that they
are amongst the rare scottish names where there isn't any capital letter
after Mac.
As it
> means "son of" it is roughly equivalent to all those somebody"son" which
are
> always written as part of a surname. I have seen the C in Mc replaced
with
> an apostrophe but I believe that is used in those names where the C is
never
> pronounced.
such as? I've never seen a Mc written without the C.
--
MacDaigh
"everyone is from somewhere
even if you've never been there."
Jethro Tull
>
>
Alan Smaill
> Spaces aren't used for Mac/Mc or O' in the US, to my knowledge. De, di,
> van and van de seem to vary in their usage. I've seen spaces used and
> lack of spaces.
>
> A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
> (and Scotland)?
Scottish phone directories make no distinction between Mac and Mc --
they all appear before Maxwell (eg).
Probably UK practice.
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University
Steve MacGregor
"Padraig Breathnach" <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
> Irish use is inconsistent. A majority leave no space.
> The contracted form "Mc" is more common in Irish names than the full
> form "Mac". it is my impression that Scottish names normally (maybe
> invariably) use the full form.
Nothing is invariable. My name has no space in it, but sometimes, in
circumstances where names are typed in all-caps, the space is there,
possibly to indicate the second capital letter.
I'm not sure how the people who do that would handle a name like "van
der Hoof".
--
How many family names to a metric buttload?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Micheil
<Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
>
>Troy Sagrillo <mesh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:meshwesh-1225C5...@mindmeld.idcomm.com...
>> I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
>> following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but not
>> always.
>>
>> Moreover, given that Mac/Mc is a word, why shouldn't a space be used? We
>> don't typically write "VanBeethoven," "VonTrapp," "ElGreco,"
>> "AlHusseini," "DeValera," &c.
>>
>> Is this possibly a regional usage? UK vs North America? Scottish usage
>> vs Irish?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
>Speaking as a Scot I have never seen it written without the name. As it
>means "son of" it is roughly equivalent to all those somebody"son" which are
>always written as part of a surname. I have seen the C in Mc replaced with
>an apostrophe but I believe that is used in those names where the C is never
>pronounced.
>
Mac means "son". The "of" part comes from the following name, usually
signified by adding an "i" before the last consonant.
Pearsan = a parson
Persain = of a parson
Fionnlagh = Finlay
Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
Mc and M' are contractions for writing, nothing more. If possible, Mac
lenites (put an "h" after the first consonant of the following word,
which usually changes its ponunciation).
Pearsain = of a parson.
Mac Phearsain = Son of a parson. (pronounced MacVerson. The
pronunciation MacFairson seems to associated with imitating a southern
Scottish accent. In the Highlands the name is pronounced "Mac
Verson").
Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
Mac Fhionnlaigh = son of Finlay. ("fh" is silent, so the name is
pronounced MacKinley)
In past times "Mac" normally stood separate from the following name.
However it is now fashionable to join both together. In Gaelic the
following name usually starts with a capital letter. If the Gaelic
version of "of the" intervenes, some write it in lower case and
separate the last name.
MacFhionnlaigh (MacKinley = son of-Findlay)
Mac na Mara (MacNamara = son of-the-sea)
Typically in the past, the name following "Mac" was a true patronymic.
The name Mac Iain meant you were the son of someone called Iain. It
was the custom to add "the son of (X), the son of (X) until the owner
got back to a well-known ancestor whose description was then given.
Iai n, son of Uilleam, son of Aonghas, son of Alasdair Dubh of the
Axes ("of the Axes" referring to some famous exploit).
Later, a preferred ancestral name (usually chosen because it had been
the first name of a particularly famous ancestor) became the normal
usage when surnames became popular.
Nicknames are still common as people in clan areas tend to have the
same surname and often a traditional clan first name.
Colin Campbell aka Big Colin to distinguish him from
Colin Campbell aka Black Colin because he has black hair.
Mac means son. Clan (in Gaelic, clanna) means children.
Correctly, you must say MacDonald and Clan Donald, not Clan MacDonald
as the latter would mean Children of the Son of-Donald, whereas the
actual tribe consists of the Children of-Donald.
All Gaelic people are Clanna nan Gŕidheal - Children of the Gaels.
Some clans have clan nicknames - Clan Gregor, aka Clan na Ceo =
Children of the Mist. Clan Donald, aka Clanna na Fraoich = Children of
the Heather. (The MacDonald warcry is "Fraoch!" - "Heather!")
I hope this clarifies matters.
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
Jim Stewart
>
>
> - měcheil
>
> - innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
>
more and more obscurafied.
Please do not clarify things. That is almost as bad as explaining the
punchline.
Jim Stewart
John Holmes
Padraig Breathnach wrote in message <8aJF5.6112$44.1...@news.iol.ie>...
>Padraic Brown wrote:
><...>
>>
>>A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in
Ireland
>>(and Scotland)?
>>
... which (for Padraic's information) was posted only in
alt.usage.english, beginning about 30th Sept.
«
--
Regards,
John.
Sean J Murphy
why not Mac Donald, Mac Carthy, etc. In his 'Surnames of Ireland' and other
works, Edward MacLysaght - sorry, Mac Lysaght - followed the practice of
leaving a space between the Mac and O prefixes and the surname proper,
indexing them according to the latter element. While we Scots and Irish
share the use of the prefix Mac (Gaelic for 'son'), the O prefix is
apparently uniquely Irish (Gaelic Ó for 'grandson'). Although O surnames are
usually written with an apostrophe, eg, O'Brien, O'Connor, there are signs
of a movement to drop this as superfluous, so that we have instead O Brien,
O Connor. This brings to mind the old practice, now thankfully dropped, of
writing Mac names with M followed by an apostrophe, eg, M'Donald, M'Carthy.
Sean Murphy
Auld Bob Peffers
"John O'Flaherty" <ofla...@toast.net> wrote in message
news:39E77EC4...@toast.net...
> Skitt wrote:
>
> > "Padraic Brown" <pbr...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
> > news:8s7k5u$14uh$2...@news.ums.edu...
di,
> > > van and van de seem to vary in their usage. I've seen spaces used and
> > > lack of spaces.
> > >
Ireland
> > > (and Scotland)?
> >
>
> Well, here in the U.S.A. we're not sordid at all.
>
> john
>
>
word, *Sort*, means to repair or fix. Sorted therefore means repaired.
Aefauldlie,
--
Auld Bob Peffers,
*The Eck's Files* http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
Auld Bob Peffers
"Alan Smaill" <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fwelmvs...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
Frae Auld Bob Peffers: I think you will find the usage of names in UK
Telephone Directories has nothing to do with local usage but is governed by
the prevailing use in and around London. The media is overly concentrated in
London and all things are looked at from that viewpoint. Take as an example
the recent wet weather. Portpatrick was flooded just a few days before some
places in the South East of England. Portpatrick was barely mentioned while
the floods in the South East of England were treated as a total disaster
with promises of government financial assistance.
MacDaigh
Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
39e7e3d6.32257311@news...
> Mac means "son". The "of" part comes from the following name, usually
> signified by adding an "i" before the last consonant.
>
> Pearsan = a parson
> Persain = of a parson
> Fionnlagh = Finlay
> Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
not necessarily (Mac an Aba, MacRath, MacEacharna). besides, a lot of the
names used for surnames already have the 'i' in them : Alasdair, Neill,
Artair, Asgaill, Griogair, etc...
My grammar says : Mac (when used in a name) = son (of).
and the 'i' appears in the first names when people are adressed to (a
Thomais, a Thormoid, a Fhionnlaigh). I'm not sure it has any 'of'
signification either in a surname or not.
if you are sure about this very point please quote the grammar rule and
where you found it.
>
> Mc and M' are contractions for writing, nothing more. If possible, Mac
> lenites (put an "h" after the first consonant of the following word,
> which usually changes its ponunciation).
except when the first consonant is L, N or R and S in SG, SM, SP and ST.
>
> Pearsain = of a parson.
> Mac Phearsain = Son of a parson. (pronounced MacVerson. The
> pronunciation MacFairson seems to associated with imitating a southern
> Scottish accent. In the Highlands the name is pronounced "Mac
> Verson").
PH gives a FF sound. only BH and MH sound like a V.
>
> Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
> Mac Fhionnlaigh = son of Finlay. ("fh" is silent, so the name is
> pronounced MacKinley)
>
> In past times "Mac" normally stood separate from the following name.
> However it is now fashionable to join both together. In Gaelic the
> following name usually starts with a capital letter. If the Gaelic
> version of "of the" intervenes, some write it in lower case and
> separate the last name.
but the rule is to use a capital letter.
>
> MacFhionnlaigh (MacKinley = son of-Findlay)
> Mac na Mara (MacNamara = son of-the-sea)
>
> Typically in the past, the name following "Mac" was a true patronymic.
> The name Mac Iain meant you were the son of someone called Iain. It
> was the custom to add "the son of (X), the son of (X) until the owner
> got back to a well-known ancestor whose description was then given.
'Nic' if you were a woman.
>
> Iai n, son of Uilleam, son of Aonghas, son of Alasdair Dubh of the
> Axes ("of the Axes" referring to some famous exploit).
>
> Later, a preferred ancestral name (usually chosen because it had been
> the first name of a particularly famous ancestor) became the normal
> usage when surnames became popular.
>
> Nicknames are still common as people in clan areas tend to have the
> same surname and often a traditional clan first name.
>
> Colin Campbell aka Big Colin to distinguish him from
> Colin Campbell aka Black Colin because he has black hair.
>
> Mac means son. Clan (in Gaelic, clanna) means children.
Clann, not clanna (which is a variation, probably obsolete - I found it in
the Dwelly's dictionnary but not in the MacLennan's).
>
> Correctly, you must say MacDonald and Clan Donald, not Clan MacDonald
> as the latter would mean Children of the Son of-Donald, whereas the
> actual tribe consists of the Children of-Donald.
since this is the anglicised version, it's not very important since what is
meant is 'the clan of the MacDonalds' (the clan of the sons of Donald if you
prefer).
The gaelic says 'clann 'IcDhòmhnaill' or 'clann Domhnaill' (but I was
teached the first form).
Padraic Brown
: Padraic Brown wrote:
: <...>
: >
: >A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
: >(and Scotland)?
: >
: We've recently been there, done that. See thread "Sorting O'xxx names".
Alt.languages.scots is not a very high traffic group, or I'd have
noticed such a thread. "We" have not 'been there' or 'done that'.
Thanks,
Padraic.
: PB
Padraic Brown
: Padraig Breathnach wrote in message <8aJF5.6112$44.1...@news.iol.ie>...
: >Padraic Brown wrote:
: ><...>
: >>
: >>A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in
: Ireland
: >>(and Scotland)?
: >>
: >We've recently been there, done that. See thread "Sorting O'xxx names".
: ... which (for Padraic's information) was posted only in
: alt.usage.english, beginning about 30th Sept.
Ah, thank you. I will look in to that.
Padraic.
: «
: --
: Regards,
: John.
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach (padr...@iol.ie) wrote:
>: Padraic Brown wrote:
>: <...>
>: >
>: >A slightly tangential question: how are Mac/Mc and O' sorted in Ireland
>: >(and Scotland)?
>: >
>: We've recently been there, done that. See thread "Sorting O'xxx names".
>
>noticed such a thread. "We" have not 'been there' or 'done that'.
>
Alt.usage.english has been there, done that. I hope your news server keeps
things for more than a day or two.
PB
Charles Ellson
padr...@iol.ie "Padraig Breathnach" wrote:
> Troy Sagrillo wrote in message ...
> >I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
> >following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but not
> >always.
> >
> >Moreover, given that Mac/Mc is a word, why shouldn't a space be used? We
> >don't typically write "VanBeethoven," "VonTrapp," "ElGreco,"
> >"AlHusseini," "DeValera," &c.
> >
> >Is this possibly a regional usage? UK vs North America? Scottish usage
> >vs Irish?
> >
> Irish use is inconsistent. A majority leave no space.
>
> The contracted form "Mc" is more common in Irish names than the full form
> "Mac". it is my impression that Scottish names normally (maybe invariably)
> use the full form.
>
IME trawling through birth, marriage and death indexes, McXYZ has more
pages than MacXYZ.
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson:E-mail charlesATellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
Alan Smaill
> not necessarily (Mac an Aba, MacRath, MacEacharna). besides, a lot of the
> names used for surnames already have the 'i' in them : Alasdair, Neill,
> Artair, Asgaill, Griogair, etc...
> My grammar says : Mac (when used in a name) = son (of).
> and the 'i' appears in the first names when people are adressed to (a
> Thomais, a Thormoid, a Fhionnlaigh). I'm not sure it has any 'of'
> signification either in a surname or not.
> if you are sure about this very point please quote the grammar rule and
> where you found it.
Surely it does -- to take the Latin terms, the vocative
and genitive cases differ from the nominative in Gaelic.
> --
> MacDaigh
> "everyone is from somewhere
> even if you've never been there."
> Jethro Tull
>
>
>
>
--
Alan Smaill
> Frae Auld Bob Peffers: I think you will find the usage of names in UK
> Telephone Directories has nothing to do with local usage but is governed by
> the prevailing use in and around London. The media is overly concentrated in
> London and all things are looked at from that viewpoint. Take as an example
> the recent wet weather. Portpatrick was flooded just a few days before some
> places in the South East of England. Portpatrick was barely mentioned while
> the floods in the South East of England were treated as a total disaster
> with promises of government financial assistance.
Just a different issue;
in fact, I think this attitude on not differentiating Mac and Mc
is one that is helpful for Scotland;
I can never remember which of my M(a)cDonald friends spell
their name which way -- this is probably less of a problem
in England.
> --
> Auld Bob Peffers,
> *The Eck's Files* http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
>
--
Alan Smaill
> On Friday, in article <ACHF5.6031$44.1...@news.iol.ie>
> padr...@iol.ie "Padraig Breathnach" wrote:
>
> > Troy Sagrillo wrote in message ...
> > >I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
> > >following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but not
> > >always.
> > >
> > >Moreover, given that Mac/Mc is a word, why shouldn't a space be used? We
> > >don't typically write "VanBeethoven," "VonTrapp," "ElGreco,"
> > >"AlHusseini," "DeValera," &c.
> > >
> > >Is this possibly a regional usage? UK vs North America? Scottish usage
> > >vs Irish?
> > >
> > Irish use is inconsistent. A majority leave no space.
> >
> > The contracted form "Mc" is more common in Irish names than the full form
> > "Mac". it is my impression that Scottish names normally (maybe invariably)
> > use the full form.
This is a frequent claim from the Irish.
> IME trawling through birth, marriage and death indexes, McXYZ has more
> pages than MacXYZ.
I'm sure that's right.
It may be that there are relatively more Mcs than Macs in Ireland,
but that's a different question.
The last time I saw this claim, I looked at the Edinburgh phone directory
(which agrees with you), and the Scottish football team
-- obviously not representative --
which happened to have 4 Mcs and no Macs at the time, AIRI.
> --
> _______
> +---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
> | Charles Ellson:E-mail charlesATellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
> +---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
> | // \\ |
> Alba gu brath |//___\\|
>
--
Micheil
wrote:
>
>Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
>39e7e3d6.32257311@news...
>> Mac means "son". The "of" part comes from the following name, usually
>> signified by adding an "i" before the last consonant.
>>
>> Pearsan = a parson
>> Persain = of a parson
>> Fionnlagh = Finlay
>> Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
>
>not necessarily (Mac an Aba, MacRath, MacEacharna). besides, a lot of the
>names used for surnames already have the 'i' in them : Alasdair, Neill,
>Artair, Asgaill, Griogair, etc...
<snipped>
I'm sure you're right. I'd be very happy if you'd take over the
explanations and then I can get back to my regular work.
Sharon L. Krossa
> I can't seem to find any consistency in usage regarding a space
> following "Mc" or "Mac." Most of the time there is not a space, but not
> always.
>
> Moreover, given that Mac/Mc is a word, why shouldn't a space be used? We
> don't typically write "VanBeethoven," "VonTrapp," "ElGreco,"
> "AlHusseini," "DeValera," &c.
>
> Is this possibly a regional usage? UK vs North America? Scottish usage
> vs Irish?
None of the above. It all depends on how an individual family froze the
spelling of their name. It signifies absolutely nothing, just as
variation between "Mac" and "Mc" and the like signifies nothing but
"that's how this family froze the spelling at some point in the past".
(<Mc> and <M'> and various other permutations are simply abbreviations
for <Mac> and used to be used completey interchangeably.)
The idea that there is one and only one "correct" way to spell a name,
or even a word, is relatively new. The variety of spellings and
conventions used by different people for Mc/Mac/etc. is a legacy of the
days when the same individual would spell their own name in a number of
different "correct" ways (but note that even then there were other ways
considered "incorrect" which would not have been used).
Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names is
The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Sharon L. Krossa
> Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
> 39e7e3d6.32257311@news...
> > Mac means "son". The "of" part comes from the following name, usually
> > signified by adding an "i" before the last consonant.
> >
> > Pearsan = a parson
> > Persain = of a parson
> > Fionnlagh = Finlay
> > Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
>
> not necessarily (Mac an Aba, MacRath, MacEacharna). besides, a lot of the
> names used for surnames already have the 'i' in them : Alasdair, Neill,
> Artair, Asgaill, Griogair, etc...
All besides the point, really, since Micheil said "*usually* signified
by addan an 'i' before the last consonant" [emphasis mine]. Micheil is
quite correct, as you will see if you check Calder, or even Dwelly. It
is not the only way, only the most common. Note he also did not say that
<i> before the last consonant *always* indicates "of"
(genitive/possesive case).
> My grammar says : Mac (when used in a name) = son (of).
Your grammar is therefore either wrong or uses "(of)" to indicate that
the meaning "of" is signified by the case of the *following* word, not
by the word <Mac> (son) itself.
> and the 'i' appears in the first names when people are adressed to (a
> Thomais, a Thormoid, a Fhionnlaigh).
Yes, in many cases <i> is used to form the vocative case as well.
Doesn't affect the truth of what Micheil said about indicating "of"
(genitive case) in Gaelic by use of <i>. Contemplate that many
grammatical uses of <s> in English. Just because adding <s> makes a word
plural, does this mean that adding <'s> to a word does *not* make it
possessive?
> I'm not sure it has any 'of'
> signification either in a surname or not.
It does, though mind you only in the sense that it is the way certain
classes of Gaelic nouns are put in the genitive case (possessive case).
> if you are sure about this very point please quote the grammar rule and
> where you found it.
Micheil doesn't need to quote grammars because he is a native speaker
(more to the point, a literate in Gaelic native speaker). Myself, I
direct you again to Calder, or even Dwelly.
> > Mc and M' are contractions for writing, nothing more. If possible, Mac
> > lenites (put an "h" after the first consonant of the following word,
> > which usually changes its ponunciation).
>
> except when the first consonant is L, N or R and S in SG, SM, SP and ST.
Please note what Micheil wrote: "*if possible*, Mac lenites". (Though I
will note that historically, lenition after <Mac> depended on dialect,
though these days it seems fairly universal in the special case of
names.)
> > Pearsain = of a parson.
> > Mac Phearsain = Son of a parson. (pronounced MacVerson. The
> > pronunciation MacFairson seems to associated with imitating a southern
> > Scottish accent. In the Highlands the name is pronounced "Mac
> > Verson").
>
> PH gives a FF sound. only BH and MH sound like a V.
I can only assume that in Micheil's dialect (and/or other dialects he is
familiar with), this particular pronunciation is used. Keep in mind that
what people actually do determines the rules of a language, not the
theoretical "should". Though I'm pretty sure I've heard it pronounced
with an \f\ sound, I would be foolish to doubt the word of a native
speaker about how he or other native speakers he knows pronounce a
Gaelic word.
> > Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
> > Mac Fhionnlaigh = son of Finlay. ("fh" is silent, so the name is
> > pronounced MacKinley)
> >
> > In past times "Mac" normally stood separate from the following name.
> > However it is now fashionable to join both together. In Gaelic the
> > following name usually starts with a capital letter. If the Gaelic
> > version of "of the" intervenes, some write it in lower case and
> > separate the last name.
>
> but the rule is to use a capital letter.
What rule? Micheil's explanation matches my own experience -- I
frequently have seen the Gaelic for "of the" in lower case in a name in
Gaelic. (In fact, I can't recall ever seeing it capitalized!)
> > MacFhionnlaigh (MacKinley = son of-Findlay)
> > Mac na Mara (MacNamara = son of-the-sea)
> >
> > Typically in the past, the name following "Mac" was a true patronymic.
> > The name Mac Iain meant you were the son of someone called Iain. It
> > was the custom to add "the son of (X), the son of (X) until the owner
> > got back to a well-known ancestor whose description was then given.
>
> 'Nic' if you were a woman.
Not historically, no. <Nic> is a modern contraction of <inghean mhic>
(daughter of [the] son). It has come to be used modernly in women's
Gaelic surnames, but it does not mean "daughter" and was not (and as far
as I know is not) used in literal patronymics in place of <mac>.
> > Iai n, son of Uilleam, son of Aonghas, son of Alasdair Dubh of the
> > Axes ("of the Axes" referring to some famous exploit).
> >
> > Later, a preferred ancestral name (usually chosen because it had been
> > the first name of a particularly famous ancestor) became the normal
> > usage when surnames became popular.
> >
> > Nicknames are still common as people in clan areas tend to have the
> > same surname and often a traditional clan first name.
> >
> > Colin Campbell aka Big Colin to distinguish him from
> > Colin Campbell aka Black Colin because he has black hair.
> >
> > Mac means son. Clan (in Gaelic, clanna) means children.
>
> Clann, not clanna (which is a variation, probably obsolete - I found it in
> the Dwelly's dictionnary but not in the MacLennan's).
Dangerous passtime, correcting a native speaker's Gaelic...
Micheil
(Sharon L. Krossa) wrote:
<snipped for space only>
>
>Dangerous passtime, correcting a native speaker's Gaelic...
>
>Sharon
A chŕr uasail os cionn chlach uaisal!
(Thou noble ally above precious stones!)
MacDaigh
I was probably a little tired last night and should have detail more what I
meant or maybe sometimes just read better what Micheil wrote.
read next.
> > > Mac means "son". The "of" part comes from the following name, usually
> > > signified by adding an "i" before the last consonant.
> > >
> > > Pearsan = a parson
> > > Persain = of a parson
> > > Fionnlagh = Finlay
> > > Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
> >
> > not necessarily (Mac an Aba, MacRath, MacEacharna). besides, a lot of
the
> > names used for surnames already have the 'i' in them : Alasdair, Neill,
> > Artair, Asgaill, Griogair, etc...
>
> All besides the point, really, since Micheil said "*usually* signified
> by add an an 'i' before the last consonant" [emphasis mine]. Micheil is
> quite correct, as you will see if you check Calder, or even Dwelly. It
> is not the only way, only the most common. Note he also did not say that
> <i> before the last consonant *always* indicates "of"
> (genitive/possesive case).
Which is why I gave that precision. It was never my intent to be rude.
>
> > My grammar says : Mac (when used in a name) = son (of).
>
> Your grammar is therefore either wrong or uses "(of)" to indicate that
> the meaning "of" is signified by the case of the *following* word, not
> by the word <Mac> (son) itself.
It's probably the second option.
>
> > and the 'i' appears in the first names when people are adressed to (a
> > Thomais, a Thormoid, a Fhionnlaigh).
>
> Yes, in many cases <i> is used to form the vocative case as well.
> Doesn't affect the truth of what Micheil said about indicating "of"
> (genitive case) in Gaelic by use of <i>.
Maybe I should have put this as a question. after all, there *might* have
been a correlation between th 'i' used in the vocative case and the one used
in 'Mac' names.
Contemplate that many
> grammatical uses of <s> in English. Just because adding <s> makes a word
> plural, does this mean that adding <'s> to a word does *not* make it
> possessive?
If I may say, even though I agree with you, you chose the wrong example.
adding <'s> to a word does not make it plural (never, I think). but adding
<s> to a verb doesn't make it plural alright.:o)
>
> > I'm not sure it has any 'of'
> > signification either in a surname or not.
>
> It does, though mind you only in the sense that it is the way certain
> classes of Gaelic nouns are put in the genitive case (possessive case).
ok, thanks for the info. :o)
>
> > if you are sure about this very point please quote the grammar rule and
> > where you found it.
>
> Micheil doesn't need to quote grammars because he is a native speaker
> (more to the point, a literate in Gaelic native speaker).
I didn't know he was. but I was only really asking for more precision.
because someone is 'literate' doesn't mean everyone is. that's why these
groups are made for I think. someone doesn't know for sure so he asks for
precisions (sometimes forgetting the question marks :o) ) so he can get
an answer.
Myself, I
> direct you again to Calder, or even Dwelly.
I own Dwelly's dictionary but it's puzzling since it has so many obsolete
entries. It makes it hard to sort out what is really used in today's
language.
>
> > > Mc and M' are contractions for writing, nothing more. If possible, Mac
> > > lenites (put an "h" after the first consonant of the following word,
> > > which usually changes its ponunciation).
> >
> > except when the first consonant is L, N or R and S in SG, SM, SP and ST.
>
> Please note what Micheil wrote: "*if possible*, Mac lenites". (Though I
> will note that historically, lenition after <Mac> depended on dialect,
> though these days it seems fairly universal in the special case of
> names.)
I did note, which is why I made the precision about when it doesn't lenite.
I thought some might be interested.
>
> > > Pearsain = of a parson.
> > > Mac Phearsain = Son of a parson. (pronounced MacVerson. The
> > > pronunciation MacFairson seems to associated with imitating a southern
> > > Scottish accent. In the Highlands the name is pronounced "Mac
> > > Verson").
> >
> > PH gives a FF sound. only BH and MH sound like a V.
>
> I can only assume that in Micheil's dialect (and/or other dialects he is
> familiar with), this particular pronunciation is used. Keep in mind that
> what people actually do determines the rules of a language, not the
> theoretical "should". Though I'm pretty sure I've heard it pronounced
> with an \f\ sound, I would be foolish to doubt the word of a native
> speaker about how he or other native speakers he knows pronounce a
> Gaelic word.
as I said, I didn't know he was a native speaker. But even if I had known I
would have posted the same according to what I've been taught. I would only
have added something like "in some other places, it is pronounced that way".
:o)
>
> > > Fionnlaigh = of Finlay.
> > > Mac Fhionnlaigh = son of Finlay. ("fh" is silent, so the name is
> > > pronounced MacKinley)
> > >
> > > In past times "Mac" normally stood separate from the following name.
> > > However it is now fashionable to join both together. In Gaelic the
> > > following name usually starts with a capital letter. If the Gaelic
> > > version of "of the" intervenes, some write it in lower case and
> > > separate the last name.
> >
> > but the rule is to use a capital letter.
>
> What rule? Micheil's explanation matches my own experience -- I
> frequently have seen the Gaelic for "of the" in lower case in a name in
> Gaelic. (In fact, I can't recall ever seeing it capitalized!)
All my apologies here. I guess I skipped a few lines because of extreme
exhaustion.:o)
I thought it was about the 'MacDhomhnaill' type name. If you read again the
beginning of my post you will notice that I gave a non-capitalized name
myself. :o)
>
> > > MacFhionnlaigh (MacKinley = son of-Findlay)
> > > Mac na Mara (MacNamara = son of-the-sea)
> > >
> > > Typically in the past, the name following "Mac" was a true patronymic.
> > > The name Mac Iain meant you were the son of someone called Iain. It
> > > was the custom to add "the son of (X), the son of (X) until the owner
> > > got back to a well-known ancestor whose description was then given.
> >
> > 'Nic' if you were a woman.
>
> Not historically, no. <Nic> is a modern contraction of <inghean mhic>
> (daughter of [the] son). It has come to be used modernly in women's
> Gaelic surnames, but it does not mean "daughter" and was not (and as far
> as I know is not) used in literal patronymics in place of <mac>.
I do not doubt it. but the - little - gaelic I was taught is fairly modern.
:o)
>
> > > Iai n, son of Uilleam, son of Aonghas, son of Alasdair Dubh of the
> > > Axes ("of the Axes" referring to some famous exploit).
> > >
> > > Later, a preferred ancestral name (usually chosen because it had been
> > > the first name of a particularly famous ancestor) became the normal
> > > usage when surnames became popular.
> > >
> > > Nicknames are still common as people in clan areas tend to have the
> > > same surname and often a traditional clan first name.
> > >
> > > Colin Campbell aka Big Colin to distinguish him from
> > > Colin Campbell aka Black Colin because he has black hair.
> > >
> > > Mac means son. Clan (in Gaelic, clanna) means children.
> >
> > Clann, not clanna (which is a variation, probably obsolete - I found it
in
> > the Dwelly's dictionnary but not in the MacLennan's).
>
> Dangerous passtime, correcting a native speaker's Gaelic...
Why 'dangerous'? I only say what I have seen. and so far I have only seen
'clann'. So since obviously 'clanna' is used in some parts, could you tell
me where? it could be useful.:o)
again, I want to apologize if you thought I was being agressive. My only
wish is to discuss. That's why we're all here for, aren't we? :o)
Tha mi sgėth a-nis. :o)
latha math an-drāsda.
Micheil
wrote:
>Why 'dangerous'? I only say what I have seen. and so far I have only seen
>'clann'. So since obviously 'clanna' is used in some parts, could you tell
>me where? it could be useful.:o)
The Gaelic Society of Inverness uses the line "Clann nan Gŕidheal, ri
guaillibh a chčile" as its motto, whereas in the song the line comes
from, it's "Clanna nan Gŕidheal, ri guaillibh a chčile". It's my habit
to say Clanna, but really it's most common in Ireland; most Highland
people say Clann.
>again, I want to apologize if you thought I was being agressive. My only
>wish is to discuss. That's why we're all here for, aren't we? :o)
You were maybe setting your sail a bit close to the wind - ma
thogair!* The important thing is - Tha Gŕidhlig Beň! - Gaelic is
alive!
* (ma thogair is a Gaelic idiom, very commonly used, meaning, it
doesn't matter. You pronounce it, mah HOE-ker.)
Orne Batmagoo
Krossa writes:
> Please note what Micheil wrote: "*if possible*, Mac lenites". (Though I
On the sidewalk, Sunday morning,
Lies a body, oozing life.
Someone's creeping 'round the corner,
If possible, Mac lenites!
--
Orne Batmagoo
Look out; old MacHeath is back!
MacDaigh
Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
> The Gaelic Society of Inverness uses the line "Clann nan Gàidheal, ri
> guaillibh a chèile" as its motto, whereas in the song the line comes
> from, it's "Clanna nan Gàidheal, ri guaillibh a chèile". It's my habit
> to say Clanna, but really it's most common in Ireland; most Highland
> people say Clann.
Ahah... I thought so. I saw Ireland in your e-mail adress so I thought it
had something to do with Ireland. So since the topic was about scottish
names, I wasn't so wrong, was I? :o)
> You were maybe setting your sail a bit close to the wind - ma
> thogair!* The important thing is - Tha Gàidhlig Beò! - Gaelic is
> alive!
Tha gu dearbh! Tha mi duilich. Chan eil mo Ghàidhlig glé mhath ach tha mi ag
ionnsachadh. 'S e Frangach a tha annam.:o)
>
> * (ma thogair is a Gaelic idiom, very commonly used, meaning, it
> doesn't matter. You pronounce it, mah HOE-ker.)
No hard feelings then? :o) I hope so. this group has been silent for months
(each time I looked into it anyway) and it would be rather absurd to begin
in such an unpleasant manner.
To the point now :
when you're talking about 'Gaelic', are you always refering to Scottish
Gaelic or to Scottish and Irish alike?
I'm asking because even though Scottish and Irish Gaelic are closely related
they're also rather different (from what I've seen. I can get something out
of a Scottish Gaelic text but an Irish one leaves me wondering...). Does all
the rules of Irish apply to Scottish Gaelic?
Skitt
"James Pluck" <JZ...@Telecom.co.nz> wrote in message
news:txLG5.5675$yigc.5...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Simon R. Hughes wrote in message ...
> >Thus Spake Orne Batmagoo:
I
> >>
> >> Lies a body, oozing life.
> >> Someone's creeping 'round the corner,
> >> If possible, Mac lenites!
> >
>
>
> The last line should be "Is that someone Mack the Knife?"
Should be? It is: "Could that someone be Mack the Knife?"
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
James Pluck
>Thus Spake Orne Batmagoo:
>> In article <1eiip49.10ircwmp0tm2gN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>, Sharon
L.
>> Krossa writes:
>>
>> Lies a body, oozing life.
>> Someone's creeping 'round the corner,
>> If possible, Mac lenites!
>
That's a verse from Mack the Knife... and incorrect...
The last line should be "Is that someone Mack the Knife?"
--
The race belongs not only to the Quick and the Strong...
... but also to those who keep on running!
- Author Unknown.
Micheil
wrote:
>
>Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
>39ead338.12965805@news...
>> The Gaelic Society of Inverness uses the line "Clann nan Gàidheal, ri
>> guaillibh a chèile" as its motto, whereas in the song the line comes
>> from, it's "Clanna nan Gàidheal, ri guaillibh a chèile". It's my habit
>> to say Clanna, but really it's most common in Ireland; most Highland
>> people say Clann.
>
>Ahah... I thought so. I saw Ireland in your e-mail adress so I thought it
>had something to do with Ireland. So since the topic was about scottish
>names, I wasn't so wrong, was I? :o)
Actually, I use an Irish email address so the Scottish Office for the
Suppression of Heretical Deviation can't find me.
Tu piges, ça c'est une blague! Avant que tu te creuses ta tête, chose
suprenante, j'ai passé un terme avec l'armée française où j'ai
grignoté à la langue de Molière et ses grossièretés pour m'amuser...
Mais vraiment, je suis montagnard écossais qui parle Gaëlique, mais
qui aussi connut bien la voyoucratie chez Kaki, ma boîte favorie de
Belleville, à Paris, 'y a 40 ans. Plus tard j'ai habité à côté d'elle
dans la rue Ramponneau - un quartier dégueulasse, hein?
Allez, dites-moi, est-ce que vous êtes vraiment d'origine écossaise?
>> You were maybe setting your sail a bit close to the wind - ma
>> thogair!* The important thing is - Tha Gàidhlig Beò! - Gaelic is
>> alive!
>
>Tha gu dearbh! Tha mi duilich. Chan eil mo Ghàidhlig glé mhath ach tha mi ag
>ionnsachadh. 'S e Frangach a tha annam.:o)
Agus agam-sa cuideachd! Is toigh leam am Fraingeis!
Notice how Gaelic says the word - French is "Frankish". Very
mediaeval!
>> * (ma thogair is a Gaelic idiom, very commonly used, meaning, it
>> doesn't matter. You pronounce it, mah HOE-ker.)
>
>No hard feelings then? :o) I hope so. this group has been silent for months
>(each time I looked into it anyway) and it would be rather absurd to begin
>in such an unpleasant manner.
I'm posting in soc.culture.scottish - that's the most popular meeting
place for Scottish people. I believe you're in alt.languages.scots.
You should change over to this group.
>To the point now :
>when you're talking about 'Gaelic', are you always refering to Scottish
>Gaelic or to Scottish and Irish alike?
>I'm asking because even though Scottish and Irish Gaelic are closely related
>they're also rather different (from what I've seen. I can get something out
>of a Scottish Gaelic text but an Irish one leaves me wondering...). Does all
>the rules of Irish apply to Scottish Gaelic?
I use "Gaelic" for Scots-Gaelic and "Irish" for Irish-Gaelic. To make
sure of the difference, some people use the local forms - Gàidhlig
(GA-lique - Scottish Gaelic) and Gaeilge (GAI-lique-è - Irish Gaelic)
(For those who are wondering, I have used French pronunciation
spelling throughout this post, not English, as the gentleman is
French; a descendant, I presume, of the Highland Wild Geese)
If you want to study the difference between the two languages, check
out these URLs:
http://www.gael-image.com/doras/ceachtanna/ceacht1-lch1.html
http://www.contemporarypoetry.com/brain/lang/index.htm
Once your eye gets used to Gaeilge it isn't too hard to read. It's a
little harder to uderstand the spoken word, but if you are a fluent
Gàidhlig speaker it's not too hard to follow.
1. To hear spoken Gàidhlig, go here and select the news. Press the
button marked "èisd" (it means "listen!").
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/
2. To hear spoken Gaeilge, go here:
3. Manx, "Yn Ghaelg - The Gaelic" (GAI -L -gui) or "Gaelg Vanninagh -
Gaelic of (the Isle of) Man" is the third Gaelic language, a
combination of Gàidhlig and Gaeilge. You may be surprised at how much
like Gàidhlig it is and how easy it is to understand, probably
because, as many believe, it was originally settled by people from the
Hebrides. Oddly, although it's a Gaelic language, it's written in
English phonetics, as it never had a formal spelling of its own.
To hear spoken Gaelg, go here and click on "Learn Manx":
For more information on Gaelg, go to
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~kelly/menu.html
Scottish Gaelic and Irish are about as different as Paris slang and
the French dialect of Québec known as Joual. For example, " J'suis
dingue!" in Paris is "Chu capoté, moé là!" in Montréal. (T'entraves
que dalle, mon gars? "Je suis capoté, moi là!" Mais vous comprenez
parfaitement; j'en suis sûr.)
Le joual est curieux mais chouette. (Maintenant je suis citoyen du
Canada, habitant à Vancouver, en Colombie Britannique - à l'ouest du
pays.) Le joual est descendu du patois normand du 17ème siècle, et les
habitants peuvent être très ombrageux si on fait de la critique de la
langage. 'Y avait un fois que, pour faire de l'esprit, j'ai dis à une
Québecoise que bien que je sache le mot suivant comme "un revolver",
j'avais entendu "un six-shooteur" à Chicoutimi (une ville campagnard
de la région) - et elle m'a donnée une paire de claques! Quelle vache
méchante! Aujourd'hui, je suis toujours respectueux des Québecoises...
Français, écossais contre ces salauds d'anglais!
Suas leis a' Ghàidhlig!
- mìcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
Micheil
>In article <1eiip49.10ircwmp0tm2gN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>, Sharon L.
>Krossa writes:
>> Please note what Micheil wrote: "*if possible*, Mac lenites". (Though I
>
>On the sidewalk, Sunday morning,
>Lies a body, oozing life.
>Someone's creeping 'round the corner,
>If possible, Mac lenites!
>
>--
>Orne Batmagoo
>Look out; old MacHeath is back!
That's rather clever!
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
>Simon R. Hughes wrote in message ...
>>Thus Spake Orne Batmagoo:
>>> In article <1eiip49.10ircwmp0tm2gN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>, Sharon
>L.
>>> Krossa writes:
>>> > Please note what Micheil wrote: "*if possible*, Mac lenites". (Though I
>>> On the sidewalk, Sunday morning,
>>> Lies a body, oozing life.
>>> Someone's creeping 'round the corner,
>>> If possible, Mac lenites!
>That's a verse from Mack the Knife... and incorrect...
>The last line should be "Is that someone Mack the Knife?"
Gracious.
What things you tell us.
bjg
Padraig Breathnach
>
<...>
>personnellement, j'ai vidé les lieux il y a un an et je vis actuellement en
>Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
>
Tu parles de la Bretagne ou du Pays des Galles? Chez nous en Irlande "An
Bhreatain Bheag" va dire du Pays des Galles. La Bretagne est "An Bhriotáin".
Pádraig Breathnach (Patrick du Pays des Galles)
Thomson McFarlane
"Steve MacGregor" <esper...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8s8p3f$uh4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> I'm not sure how the people who do that would handle a name like "van
> der Hoof".
Vanderaerden is a Flemish name.
Thomson
MacDaigh
Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
> >Ahah... I thought so. I saw Ireland in your e-mail adress so I thought it
> >had something to do with Ireland. So since the topic was about scottish
> >names, I wasn't so wrong, was I? :o)
>
> Actually, I use an Irish email address so the Scottish Office for the
> Suppression of Heretical Deviation can't find me.
What kind of deviation? :o)
> Tu piges, ça c'est une blague! Avant que tu te creuses ta tête, chose
> suprenante, j'ai passé un terme avec l'armée française où j'ai
> grignoté à la langue de Molière et ses grossièretés pour m'amuser...
>
> Mais vraiment, je suis montagnard écossais qui parle Gaëlique, mais
> qui aussi connut bien la voyoucratie chez Kaki, ma boîte favorie de
> Belleville, à Paris, 'y a 40 ans. Plus tard j'ai habité à côté d'elle
> dans la rue Ramponneau - un quartier dégueulasse, hein?
:oD On dirait un pur titi parisien. Le style date peut-être un peu. en
quarante ans j'ai bien peur que le langage populaire de notre soi-disante
plus "belle ville du monde" n'ait un peu changé. maintenant on entendrait
plutôt des choses du genre 'woa, z'y va, la vie ma reum, c'est porte-nawak
ton truc' (translation : 'come on, man, on my mother's life, this is
absolute nonsense').
Quant à Paris, j'ai habité dans le haut de la rue de Belleville (Télégraphe)
mais je ne connais pas la rue Ramponneau (quoique le nom me dise quelque
chose). et vous auriez des surprises quant à l'état du quartier. depuis
quelques années les quartiers dit populaires ont tendance à être revus de la
cave au grenier. en gros, on démolit et on reconstruit par dessus. resultat,
ce n'est pas forcément mieux fréquenté, mais au moins est-ce vivable. de nos
jours, ce sont plutôt les banlieues qui sont à éviter.
personnellement, j'ai vidé les lieux il y a un an et je vis actuellement en
Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
>
> Allez, dites-moi, est-ce que vous êtes vraiment d'origine écossaise?
Euh... je n'ai jamais dit que je l'était, il me semble. quoique d'après ma
mère qui s'est lancée dans des recherches généalogiques, une branche de
notre famille viendrait d'outre-manche. alors, qui sait...? Et franchement,
je n'aurai vraiment rien contre.
> >Tha gu dearbh! Tha mi duilich. Chan eil mo Ghàidhlig glé mhath ach tha mi
ag
> >ionnsachadh. 'S e Frangach a tha annam.:o)
>
> Agus agam-sa cuideachd! Is toigh leam am Fraingeis!
The problem with Gaelic - and all the other Celtic languages plus a few
others I guess - is that the words change from one area to another. If I
understand you well, I've seen Is toigh leam written as 'S toil leam and I
know it can also be said 'S caomh leam. it reminds me of a discussion I had
on alt.languages.english.reform. the guy wanted to change the spelling of
english because he thought it had so many exceptions that one needed an
exceptionnal memory to spell it right. he should come around here.
Ach chan eil mi a' tuigsinn 'agam-sa cuideachd'. I translate this more or
less as 'myself too'. what do you mean? you are partly french or are you
also learning (I doubt about that though :o) )?
>
> Notice how Gaelic says the word - French is "Frankish". Very
> mediaeval!
yes. as in german Frankreich. the nordic laguages seem to have kept the
'Frank' part even though we ourselves have lost the hard K (except in
'amitié Franco-Ecossaise' ;o) ).
> I'm posting in soc.culture.scottish - that's the most popular meeting
> place for Scottish people. I believe you're in alt.languages.scots.
yep! that's why I couldn't even begin to guess that you were a 'native'
(this word really makes one look like a naked guy running with a spear in
his hand after an unwilling rabbit). :o)
> You should change over to this group.
I sure will. my ISP has 33 000 groups and I never took the time to look at
all of them. sometimes I stumble upon an interesting group but that's all.
There are two other 'scottish' groups in which I dwell :
alt.fan.countries.scotland (which is sometimes very crowded and sometimes
very... empty) and alt.binaries.countries.scotland (In which I'm almost the
sole poster, I'm afraid).
> I use "Gaelic" for Scots-Gaelic and "Irish" for Irish-Gaelic. To make
> sure of the difference, some people use the local forms - Gàidhlig
> (GA-lique - Scottish Gaelic) and Gaeilge (GAI-lique-è - Irish Gaelic)
I knew that but because of the 'clanna' matter, I had been wondering. :o)
> (For those who are wondering, I have used French pronunciation
> spelling throughout this post, not English, as the gentleman is
> French; a descendant, I presume, of the Highland Wild Geese)
... I'm not quite sure about how I should take this. :o)
>
> If you want to study the difference between the two languages, check
> out these URLs:
thanks for all the links. I'll have to find some time to explore them but I
surely will.
but if you are a fluent
> Gàidhlig speaker it's not too hard to follow.
Well....... :o)
>
> Le joual est curieux mais chouette. (Maintenant je suis citoyen du
> Canada, habitant à Vancouver, en Colombie Britannique - à l'ouest du
> pays.) Le joual est descendu du patois normand du 17ème siècle, et les
> habitants peuvent être très ombrageux si on fait de la critique de la
> langage.
je m'interroge parfois sur l'origine réelle de certaine de leurs
expressions. par exemple 'chauffer dans la noirceur'. c'est tellement proche
de 'to drive in the dark' que je me demande si ce ne serait pas une simple
traduction hasardeuse. je m'explique : la traduction de 'driver' est
'chauffeur'. donc, par extension, 'to drive'='chauffer'. Quant à 'dark', la
traduction correcte du mot est 'noirceur, pénombre'. si on traduit 'in the
dark' par 'dans le noir' c'est uniquement parce que l'espression française
est ainsi. donc on a 'to drive in the dark' = 'chauffer dans la noirceur'.
je me trompe peut-être sur toute la ligne mais la similitude m'a frappée.
Qu'en pensez-vous?
'Y avait un fois que, pour faire de l'esprit, j'ai dis à une
> Québecoise que bien que je sache le mot suivant comme "un revolver",
> j'avais entendu "un six-shooteur" à Chicoutimi (une ville campagnard
> de la région) - et elle m'a donnée une paire de claques! Quelle vache
> méchante! Aujourd'hui, je suis toujours respectueux des Québecoises...
je n'ai rien compris mais ça m'a fait beaucoup rire. :o)
quel 'mot suivant'?
>
> Français, écossais contre ces salauds d'anglais!
Je dois avouer que j'aime bien les anglais. je ne parle pas de leur
gouvernement passés ou actuel (quoi que l'actuel prime minister soit
écossais il me semble), mais des gens eux-même. j'ai souvent franchit le
'channel' et j'ai toujours été bien reçu. je me sens assez loin de la
vieille rivalité ancestrale qui oppose les français aux anglais. Par contre,
je comprend tout à fait que les écossais aient envie de leur botter le
derrière. mais je pense qu'il ne faut pas mélanger gouvernement et
population. ils ont rarement les même buts. Et puis, de nos jours, les
écossais se sont tellement implantés un peu partout en Angleterre que
rejeter tout ceux qui se trouve au Sud du mur d'Hadrien serait comme se
rejeter un peu soi-même, j'imagine. mais ce n'est que mon opinion.
> Suas leis a' Ghàidhlig!
I'll drink to that! :o)
Peter Moylan
>MacDaigh wrote in message <8simq2$fs1$1...@wanadoo.fr>...
>>
><...>
>>Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
>>
>Bhreatain Bheag" va dire du Pays des Galles. La Bretagne est "An Bhriotáin".
>
>Pádraig Breathnach (Patrick du Pays des Galles)
Padraig, I'd never before realised the significance of your name. It
reinforces something I heard long ago: the Welsh aren't a separate
people, they're simply the Irish who couldn't swim.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
See http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au for OS/2 information and software
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>Pádraig Breathnach (Patrick du Pays des Galles)
>
>Padraig, I'd never before realised the significance of your name. It
>reinforces something I heard long ago: the Welsh aren't a separate
>people, they're simply the Irish who couldn't swim.
>
Not quite -- they're the ones who couldn't walk on water.
PB
Nick-Durie
Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> wrote in message
news:39ebd001.26714013@news...
> Canada, habitant à Vancouver, en Colombie Britannique - à l'ouest du
> pays.) Le joual est descendu du patois normand du 17ème siècle, et les
> habitants peuvent être très ombrageux si on fait de la critique de la
> langage. 'Y avait un fois que, pour faire de l'esprit, j'ai dis à une
> Québecoise que bien que je sache le mot suivant comme "un revolver",
> j'avais entendu "un six-shooteur" à Chicoutimi (une ville campagnard
> de la région) - et elle m'a donnée une paire de claques! Quelle vache
> méchante! Aujourd'hui, je suis toujours respectueux des Québecoises...
Qu'est-ce que vous pensez que sont les differences entre la Parisienne et
le Québecoises?
>
> Français, écossais contre ces salauds d'anglais!
Si vous continuez comme ça Micheil, je vais apprendre plus que je peut
apprendre à ma classe Français. Ils ont eu trois mots que je n'ai pas
connu.
Bien sûr, sans aucan doute, mais peut-être les Québecoises aussi?
> Suas leis a' Ghàidhlig!
>
>
>
? Nikk Dourie
? Nik Duirie
? Nick Durie
Miðers agin bauchils. Och ay an aa ðæ fowk ðat disna git aff ðair duffs an
ðæ ði disches forby sortin ði umquheyill kinrik an aa ðon iðer geir ðat ðæ
heichheidyins is i3i dæin.
MacDaigh
Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> a écrit dans le message :
1x5H5.6845$44.2...@news.iol.ie...
en
> >Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
> >
> Bhreatain Bheag" va dire du Pays des Galles. La Bretagne est "An
Bhriotáin".
Bretagne. En Gàidhlig la Bretagne 'Française' se dit "A' Bhreatainn Bheag".
la différence se trouve dans le double N.
Par contre, ce qui est curieux, c'est que bien qu'il y ait une "petite
Bretagne" on ne trouve pas de "Bhreatain(n) Mhor". A moins que ce terme
n'ait existé puis disparu?
Stephen Copinger
>Je dois avouer que j'aime bien les anglais. je ne parle pas de leur
>gouvernement passés ou actuel (quoi que l'actuel prime minister soit
>écossais il me semble), mais des gens eux-même.
Beannachd leibh
Stephen
Alan Smaill
> Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> a écrit dans le message :
> 1x5H5.6845$44.2...@news.iol.ie...
> > MacDaigh wrote in message <8simq2$fs1$1...@wanadoo.fr>...
> > >
> > <...>
> > >personnellement, j'ai vidé les lieux il y a un an et je vis actuellement
> en
> > >Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
> > >
> > Tu parles de la Bretagne ou du Pays des Galles? Chez nous en Irlande "An
> > Bhreatain Bheag" va dire du Pays des Galles. La Bretagne est "An
> Bhriotáin".
>
> Bretagne. En Gàidhlig la Bretagne 'Française' se dit "A' Bhreatainn Bheag".
> la différence se trouve dans le double N.
> Par contre, ce qui est curieux, c'est que bien qu'il y ait une "petite
> Bretagne" on ne trouve pas de "Bhreatain(n) Mhor". A moins que ce terme
> n'ait existé puis disparu?
ou que personne ne veut en parler ...
> --
> MacDaigh
Padraig Breathnach
>
>Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> a écrit dans le message :
>1x5H5.6845$44.2...@news.iol.ie...
>> MacDaigh wrote in message <8simq2$fs1$1...@wanadoo.fr>...
>> >
>> <...>
>en
>> >Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
>> >
>> Bhreatain Bheag" va dire du Pays des Galles. La Bretagne est "An
>Bhriotáin".
>
>Bretagne. En Gàidhlig la Bretagne 'Française' se dit "A' Bhreatainn Bheag".
>la différence se trouve dans le double N.
>Par contre, ce qui est curieux, c'est que bien qu'il y ait une "petite
>Bretagne" on ne trouve pas de "Bhreatain(n) Mhor". A moins que ce terme
>n'ait existé puis disparu?
>
Cén áit sa Bhriotáin ina bhfuil tú?
PB
MacDaigh
Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> a écrit dans le message :
auIH5.7088$44.2...@news.iol.ie...
> MacDaigh wrote in message <8slass$h0p$1...@wanadoo.fr>...
> >
> >Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> a écrit dans le message :
> >1x5H5.6845$44.2...@news.iol.ie...
> >> MacDaigh wrote in message <8simq2$fs1$1...@wanadoo.fr>...
> >> >
> >> <...>
actuellement
> >en
> >> >Bretagne (A' Bhreatainn Bheag!) et j'y suis très bien.:o)
> >> >
"An
> >> Bhreatain Bheag" va dire du Pays des Galles. La Bretagne est "An
> >Bhriotáin".
> >
> >Bretagne. En Gàidhlig la Bretagne 'Française' se dit "A' Bhreatainn
Bheag".
> >la différence se trouve dans le double N.
> >Par contre, ce qui est curieux, c'est que bien qu'il y ait une "petite
> >Bretagne" on ne trouve pas de "Bhreatain(n) Mhor". A moins que ce terme
> >n'ait existé puis disparu?
> >
> I nGaeilge na hÉireann, tá an téarma "an Bhreatain Mhór" againn.
...
Let's try to guess : In Irish Gaelic, you have the term "an Bhreatain Mhòr".
I suppose it refers to what we all know as Great-Britain, doesn't it?
>
> Cén áit sa Bhriotáin ina bhfuil tú?
What part of Brittany am I from?
I am living in Nantes (this town is twinned with Cardiff in Wales). but my
grand-parents (well... my grand-mother really. My grand-father died two
month ago)are living near Guérande. most of the area is or was a damp. on
one side we have the Parc National de Brière which is a nice place to visit
and on the other side we have the Marais Salants where some people are still
making salt in the old way. the salt from Guérande is very renowned.
the coast line is usually a nice place as well, but these days we've got
some oil problems. maybe you heard about it.:o(
MacDaigh
Stephen Copinger <S-Cop...@zetnet.co.bounce.uk> a écrit dans le message :
39ee1bbe$0$1...@news.zetnet.co.uk...> <snip>
> >Je dois avouer que j'aime bien les anglais. je ne parle pas de leur
> >gouvernement passés ou actuel (quoi que l'actuel prime minister soit
> >écossais il me semble), mais des gens eux-même.
his name is Blair (as in Blair Atholl) and he's not Scottish?
Alan Smaill
> Stephen Copinger <S-Cop...@zetnet.co.bounce.uk> a écrit dans le message :
> 39ee1bbe$0$1...@news.zetnet.co.uk...
> >
> > MacDaigh wrote in message <8simq2$fs1$1...@wanadoo.fr>...
> > >
> > <snip>
> > >Je dois avouer que j'aime bien les anglais. je ne parle pas de leur
> > >gouvernement passés ou actuel (quoi que l'actuel prime minister soit
> > >écossais il me semble), mais des gens eux-même.
> > Non, M. Blair n'est pas écossais, mais il était éduqué en Ecosse.
>
> his name is Blair (as in Blair Atholl) and he's not Scottish?
I believe he was born here (is that right?).
On the other hand, before the Euro 1996 campaign, as leader of
the opposition, he wrote a piece for some paper, saying he hoped England would
win, and what's more win with fair play.
There was no mention that another team was also involved in the tournament.
>
> --
> MacDaigh
> "everyone is from somewhere
> even if you've never been there."
> Jethro Tull
Padraig Breathnach
>> I nGaeilge na hÉireann, tá an téarma "an Bhreatain Mhór" againn.
>
>...
>Let's try to guess : In Irish Gaelic, you have the term "an Bhreatain
Mhòr".
>I suppose it refers to what we all know as Great-Britain, doesn't it?
>
Ceart. I presumed that you would be able to decipher it, as Irish speakers
can make some fist of reading Scots Gaelic. We might have preserved the term
because we are external to the place, whereas Scotland is part of Britain.
We also use "An Bhreatain". Despite our long and sometimes troubled
association with Britain, neither term has tricky political connotations.
>> Cén áit sa Bhriotáin ina bhfuil tú?
>
>What part of Brittany am I from?
>I am living in Nantes (this town is twinned with Cardiff in Wales). but my
>grand-parents (well... my grand-mother really. My grand-father died two
>month ago)are living near Guérande. most of the area is or was a damp. on
>one side we have the Parc National de Brière which is a nice place to visit
>and on the other side we have the Marais Salants where some people are
still
>making salt in the old way. the salt from Guérande is very renowned.
>the coast line is usually a nice place as well, but these days we've got
>some oil problems. maybe you heard about it.:o(
>
Sorry that you have lost your grandfather.
I have been to both Nantes and Guérande -- both well worth visiting. I am
much more familiar with Basse Bretagne, which I visit every year. One of my
dreams is to cruise the Canal de Nantes à Brest. I have tried to convince
Brian Goggin (a regular participant in alt.usage.english, one of the groups
to which this thread is cross-posted) that this would be a good way to waste
time.
PB
MacDaigh
> >> Cén áit sa Bhriotáin ina bhfuil tú?
> >
> >What part of Brittany am I from?
> >I am living in Nantes (this town is twinned with Cardiff in Wales). but
my
> >grand-parents (well... my grand-mother really. My grand-father died two
> >month ago)are living near Guérande. most of the area is or was a damp. on
> >one side we have the Parc National de Brière which is a nice place to
visit
> >and on the other side we have the Marais Salants where some people are
> still
> >making salt in the old way. the salt from Guérande is very renowned.
> >the coast line is usually a nice place as well, but these days we've got
> >some oil problems. maybe you heard about it.:o(
> >
>
> I have been to both Nantes and Guérande -- both well worth visiting. I am
> much more familiar with Basse Bretagne, which I visit every year.
I have some friends over there. Especially in the western part of the Côtes
d'Armor. But apart from a brief visit in Carhaix and Brest I don't know much
about the Finistère.
One of my
> dreams is to cruise the Canal de Nantes à Brest. I have tried to convince
> Brian Goggin (a regular participant in alt.usage.english, one of the
groups
> to which this thread is cross-posted) that this would be a good way to
waste
> time.
It certainly would. I should do it myself, one day... :o)
As I should cross over to Ireland. maybe next year... or the next.
MacDaigh
Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> a écrit dans le message :
fweg0ls...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
> > Non, M. Blair n'est pas écossais, mais il était éduqué en Ecosse.
>
> his name is Blair (as in Blair Atholl) and he's not Scottish?
I believe he was born here (is that right?).
On the other hand, before the Euro 1996 campaign, as leader of
the opposition, he wrote a piece for some paper, saying he hoped England
would
win, and what's more win with fair play.
There was no mention that another team was also involved in the tournament.
even though I fully support the Scottish team maybe he was only being
realistic? :o)
Brian J Goggin
<padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>I have been to both Nantes and Guérande -- both well worth visiting. I am
>much more familiar with Basse Bretagne, which I visit every year. One of my
>dreams is to cruise the Canal de Nantes à Brest. I have tried to convince
>Brian Goggin (a regular participant in alt.usage.english, one of the groups
>to which this thread is cross-posted) that this would be a good way to waste
>time.
He's convinced my wife and family, but I resist the lure of foreign
parts. Travel is, I find, distressing.
bjg
Padraig Breathnach
Brian J Goggin
<padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>Brian J Goggin wrote in message
>>He's convinced my wife and family, but I resist the lure of foreign
>>parts. Travel is, I find, distressing.
>Especially on boats.
Only when their alternators break down (which, admittedly, happens
with distressing frequency). Otherwise, boats are fine, as long as
they don't go more than a mile from shore. And don't go out in
anything over a Force 4.
bjg
Alan Smaill
(attribution not so obvious, but) ...
> Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> a écrit dans le message :
> fweg0ls...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
> > > Non, M. Blair n'est pas écossais, mais il était éduqué en Ecosse.
> >
> > his name is Blair (as in Blair Atholl) and he's not Scottish?
still me here:
> I believe he was born here (is that right?).
>
> On the other hand, before the Euro 1996 campaign, as leader of
> the opposition, he wrote a piece for some paper, saying he hoped England
> would
> win, and what's more win with fair play.
>
> There was no mention that another team was also involved in the tournament.
Now MacDaigh:
> even though I fully support the Scottish team maybe he was only being
> realistic? :o)
If it hadn't been for England failing to get that one more goal against
Holland, we would have ..... alright, maybe he was.
Alan Smaill
> On 20 Oct 2000 03:47:05 +0100, Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >"MacDaigh" <mac....@wanadoo.fr> writes:
> >
> >
> >I believe he was born here (is that right?).
> >
> >On the other hand, before the Euro 1996 campaign, as leader of
> >the opposition, he wrote a piece for some paper, saying he hoped
> >England would
> >win, and what's more win with fair play.
> >
>
> Why should he not? Gordon Brown would have liked to see Scotland win
> would he not? Would that have made him a hypocrite?
My complaint is not that he expressed a preference;
it's that --
this piece was only in the papers because of his aspiration
at that time to be PM of the UK; given that, he should have
at least mentioned that AN Other team was involved.
Otherwise this is simply pandering to the larger part of his electorate,
especially given his claims on his Scottishness on other occasions.
Peter Moylan
>On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:14:48 GMT, "Padraig Breathnach"
><padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>>I have been to both Nantes and Guérande -- both well worth visiting. I am
>>much more familiar with Basse Bretagne, which I visit every year. One of my
>>dreams is to cruise the Canal de Nantes à Brest. I have tried to convince
>>Brian Goggin (a regular participant in alt.usage.english, one of the groups
>>to which this thread is cross-posted) that this would be a good way to waste
>>time.
>
>parts. Travel is, I find, distressing.
Ah, Brian, you should learn to take a more global perspective. On my
maps, Brest is but a finger's-breadth away from Limerick.
You're all in the same European Community, is it not pas? Try
getting out and mingling with the people of the local neighbourhood.
Why, just a couple of weeks ago I took a trip down to Sydney.
How different could that be to a journey over The Sleeve?
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au
Padraig Breathnach
>Brian J Goggin wrote:
>>On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:14:48 GMT, "Padraig Breathnach"
>><padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>>>I have been to both Nantes and Guérande -- both well worth visiting. I am
>>>much more familiar with Basse Bretagne, which I visit every year. One of
my
>>>dreams is to cruise the Canal de Nantes à Brest. I have tried to convince
>>>Brian Goggin (a regular participant in alt.usage.english, one of the
groups
>>>to which this thread is cross-posted) that this would be a good way to
waste
>>>time.
>>
>>He's convinced my wife and family, but I resist the lure of foreign
>>parts. Travel is, I find, distressing.
>
>Ah, Brian, you should learn to take a more global perspective. On my
>maps, Brest is but a finger's-breadth away from Limerick.
>
PB
Brian J Goggin
Moylan) wrote:
>Ah, Brian, you should learn to take a more global perspective. On my
>maps, Brest is but a finger's-breadth away from Limerick.
My motto is "Think global, stay local." I don't mind reading books
about Foreign Parts, if only to convince me of the correctitude of my
decision to avoid them.
>You're all in the same European Community, is it not pas? Try
>getting out and mingling with the people of the local neighbourhood.
I must tell you that I have done Travel in the past: I've been to
Belgium (once), Luxembourg (once) and France (twice, I think). I've
also been to the UK several times.
>Why, just a couple of weeks ago I took a trip down to Sydney.
>How different could that be to a journey over The Sleeve?
Yes, but you can get there by road (kangaroos permitting, of course).
No need to worry about ships sinking or aeroplanes having their wings
fall off. Or getting shot down ten minutes after take-off.
bjg
Peter Moylan
>Why, just a couple of weeks ago I took a trip down to Sydney.
>How different could that be to a journey over The Sleeve?
From. I really meant from. I swear to you, it was a disagreement
between my brain and my fingers.
Lachie Macquarie
writes
>
>--
>MacDaigh
>"everyone is from somewhere
>even if you've never been there."
>Jethro Tull
But two browns arms couldn't keep me away.
--
Lachie Macquarie, Bod an Deamhain I wish.
Lachie Macquarie
writes
>
>Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> a écrit dans le message :
>fweg0ls...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
>> > Non, M. Blair n'est pas écossais, mais il était éduqué en Ecosse.
>>
>> his name is Blair (as in Blair Atholl) and he's not Scottish?
>
>I believe he was born here (is that right?).
>
>On the other hand, before the Euro 1996 campaign, as leader of
>the opposition, he wrote a piece for some paper, saying he hoped England
>would
>win, and what's more win with fair play.
>
>There was no mention that another team was also involved in the tournament.
>
>realistic? :o)
>
MacDaigh
Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> a écrit dans le message :
jsl1vskcv16n5ufd7...@4ax.com...
On the Canal you're very unlikely to encounter anything like Force 4. :o)
and the shore will stay very close at hand. :oD
apart from that you should do the trip. Brittany's a nice place to see.
connochies
Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fwe4s27...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
He was born in Scotland I think, and educated in Edinburgh, but aren't his
parents English? Much better supporting his preferred team than sitting on
the fence to try and please everyone.
Allan
>
>
Nick-Durie
connochies <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:8sviop$3ic$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> parents English? Much better supporting his preferred team than sitting
on
> the fence to try and please everyone.
>
It doesn't matter whence he came, whither he is going or how he gets there,
a detestable man will remain destestable whether he be a Tartar or a Greek.
>
> Allan
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
MacDaigh
Lachie Macquarie <Lac...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
$YD7+MA1...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk...
> >MacDaigh
> >"everyone is from somewhere
> >even if you've never been there."
> >Jethro Tull
> Two brown legs don't make a summer,
> But two browns arms couldn't keep me away.
What is that from?
Lachie Macquarie
writes
>
>Lachie Macquarie <Lac...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
>$YD7+MA1...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk...
>> >MacDaigh
>> >"everyone is from somewhere
>> >even if you've never been there."
>> >Jethro Tull
>
>> But two browns arms couldn't keep me away.
>
>What is that from?
The Secret Language of Birds, By IA, absolutely first class.
MacDaigh
Lachie Macquarie <Lac...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
nKMdKfBN...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk...
> >> Two brown legs don't make a summer,
> >> But two browns arms couldn't keep me away.
> >
> >What is that from?
>
>
> The Secret Language of Birds, By IA, absolutely first class.
I haven't got that one. JT's albums are rather easy to find in France (some
of them anyway) But Ian Anderson's solo efforts (or Martin Barre's for that
matter) are very rare. I couldn't get IA's albums so far. but I will. One
day... :o)
davie
<b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:44:39 +1300, "James Pluck" <JZ...@Telecom.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>Simon R. Hughes wrote in message ...
>>>Thus Spake Orne Batmagoo:
>>>> In article <1eiip49.10ircwmp0tm2gN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>, Sharon
>>L.
>>>> Krossa writes:
>>>> > Please note what Micheil wrote: "*if possible*, Mac lenites". (Though I
>
>>>> On the sidewalk, Sunday morning,
>>>> Lies a body, oozing life.
>>>> Someone's creeping 'round the corner,
>>>> If possible, Mac lenites!
>
>>That's a verse from Mack the Knife... and incorrect...
>
>>The last line should be "Is that someone Mack the Knife?"
>
>Gracious.
>
>What things you tell us.
>
>bjg
>
you guys have way too much spare time!! get a proper hobby.
davie
wrote:
>
>Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
>39ead338.12965805@news...
>> The Gaelic Society of Inverness uses the line "Clann nan Gàidheal, ri
>> guaillibh a chèile" as its motto, whereas in the song the line comes
>> from, it's "Clanna nan Gàidheal, ri guaillibh a chèile". It's my habit
>> to say Clanna, but really it's most common in Ireland; most Highland
>> people say Clann.
>
>Ahah... I thought so. I saw Ireland in your e-mail adress so I thought it
>had something to do with Ireland. So since the topic was about scottish
>names, I wasn't so wrong, was I? :o)
>
>> You were maybe setting your sail a bit close to the wind - ma
>> thogair!* The important thing is - Tha Gàidhlig Beò! - Gaelic is
>> alive!
>
>Tha gu dearbh! Tha mi duilich. Chan eil mo Ghàidhlig glé mhath ach tha mi ag
>ionnsachadh. 'S e Frangach a tha annam.:o)
>
>>
>> * (ma thogair is a Gaelic idiom, very commonly used, meaning, it
>> doesn't matter. You pronounce it, mah HOE-ker.)
>
>No hard feelings then? :o) I hope so. this group has been silent for months
>(each time I looked into it anyway) and it would be rather absurd to begin
>in such an unpleasant manner.
>To the point now :
>when you're talking about 'Gaelic', are you always refering to Scottish
>Gaelic or to Scottish and Irish alike?
>I'm asking because even though Scottish and Irish Gaelic are closely related
>they're also rather different (from what I've seen. I can get something out
>of a Scottish Gaelic text but an Irish one leaves me wondering...). Does all
>the rules of Irish apply to Scottish Gaelic?
>
>--
>MacDaigh
>"everyone is from somewhere
>even if you've never been there."
>Jethro Tull
>
>
Are jethro tull gaelic??? roots and all that.
Lachie Macquarie
<dh01...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>MacDaigh
>>"everyone is from somewhere
>>even if you've never been there."
>>Jethro Tull
>>
>>
>Are jethro tull gaelic??? roots and all that.
IA is from Dunfermline but was brought up in Blackpool, nae Dublin
though.
Jethro Tull, an Englishman, was the inventor of the seed drill in the
late 18 early 19C.
Anderson bought the estate of Strathaird in Skye in the seventies and
promptly started farming salmon.
He writes a bit about the Highlands and Skye but I would not call Tull a
particularly Gaelic band.
--
MacDaigh
> >MacDaigh
> >"everyone is from somewhere
> >even if you've never been there."
> >Jethro Tull
> >
> >
> Are jethro tull gaelic??? roots and all that.
Ian Anderson, JT's singer-flautist-main composer, was born in Edinburgh. He
also has a fish farm on Skye. and a lot of JT's songs refer to Scotland
(Ears of Tin on the album Rock Island - and Rock Island as well, of course).
apart from that, no. I don't think so. :o).