Order of compass directions in different languages
Ken Kato
An interesting question you've got.
This is just my guess, and I haven't learned ethymology
seriously so I may be completely wrong.
AFAIK, the Chinese order follows the mithological "rank" of
the directions. East is the most important because, as you've
guessed, the sun rises in the east. The order of other
directions also have "reasons", but I don't know if the order
was decided after these reasons, or the reasons were made up
after the actual order (clockwise from east).
Also there is certain association between four directions and
four seasons.
I don't know why we use different order in Japan, but I'd guess
there's a logic kind of similar to the order in western languages
-- east, west (the opposite), south, north (the opposite)
Oh, and your guess about the importance of north is the other
way round actually -- direction of the head at death is north
because it is the most ominous direction.
Ron Andrews wrote on 14 Sep 2003 10:00:06 -0700
in article <7594b59c.03091...@posting.google.com>:
>Here's a language question I've been wondering about for a while that
>I'm hoping some among you might help me understand better.
>
>Does anyone know the etymology or history behind the traditional
>orders of compass directions stated in different languages?
>
>In English, German, possibly French, Italian, Spanish and others, the
>order is stated as "north, south, east, west". In Japanese, however,
>the order is "east, west, south, north" [東西南北 (tou, zai, nan, boku)].
>In Chinese, I believe it's different again, as "east, south, west,
>north" [東南西北 (dong, nan, xi, bei)]. Other than some guessing at the
>importance of east (rising sun) and north (direction of the head at
>death in Japan), I haven't come up with what sound like plausible
>reasons for these different orders. The orders used surely reflect
>other characteristics of the cultures involved, but what are they? One
>Japanese fellow I asked said he thought it was because in Japanese
>it's just easier to say it that way. I'm thinking it's got to be
>deeper than that.
>
>I've scoured the Net and looked through a few language books I have
>but have found nothing yet. Also, so far I've posted this question to
>the four NGs above as well as to the SWET (Japan-based Society of
>Writers, Editors and Translators) and Nihongo mailing lists, but if
>anyone can suggest other newsgroups, mailing lists, etc., that would
>be very helpful.
>
>So why are there different ways of saying the order of these
>directions in different languages?
>
>Many thanks for any help with this.
>
>Ron in Nara
--
Ken Kato (kato....@cij.co.jp)
Just Testing
> Does anyone know the etymology or history behind the traditional
> orders of compass directions stated in different languages?
Interesting question! I imagine that the Japanese ordering comes from
the Chinese one, which actually is dong-xi-nan-bei (or at least that's
how we learned it -- where did you find the dong nan xi bei
ordering?). As for the reasoning, my speculations would be no better
than yours, and even if you did manage to unearth some ancient text
the purported to explain the reasoning, it would probably just be an
after-the-fact attempt to give meaning to a custom that was already
prevalent. But it's fun to think about!
VT
Sampo
>>Here's some example of the precedence.
>>南船北馬(boat in the south, horse in the north)
「東奔西走」などは東優位を示していると言えそうですね。
--
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:: ■■さんぽ■■ <mue...@csc.jp>
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Bart Mathias
>...
> About the precedence of the south over the north, I guess the
> origin was China and we just imported that. Here's some example of
> the precedence.
> [minami sasu kuruma: shinansha](south-pointing car)
> a compass-on-the-car.
I wonder what kind of cars they had in ancient China.
> ... [kitamakura](north pillow) was Buddha's position at his death
> and therefore thought it was good for the dead.
> ...
How do we know how Buddha's corpse was laid out? Is this based on
Indian writings?
In any event, the Chinese considered north the "back" direction long
before Buddha came along.
Sorry about sending this to five groups, but I can't figure out which
one Junn Ohta, to whom I am responding, posted from.
Bart Mathias
Junn Ohta
mat...@hawaii.eduさんは書きました。
> I wonder what kind of cars they had in ancient China.
Chariot or cargo trailer type of cars they had.
> How do we know how Buddha's corpse was laid out? Is this based on
> Indian writings?
Nirvana Sutra and some other sutras refer to it.
Buddha's corpse was laid with his head to the north,
his right side down, hence his head directed west.
> In any event, the Chinese considered north the "back" direction long
> before Buddha came along.
I agree...
--
太田純(Junn Ohta) (株)リコー/新横浜事業所
oh...@sdg.mdd.ricoh.co.jp
bes...@lycos.jp
> In English, German, possibly French, Italian, Spanish and others, the
> order is stated as "north, south, east, west". In Japanese, however,
> the order is "east, west, south, north" [東西南北 (tou, zai, nan, boku)].
> In Chinese, I believe it's different again, as "east, south, west,
> north" [東南西北 (dong, nan, xi, bei)]. Other than some guessing at the
Cultures in far east asia were affected of IN-YOH [陰陽] thought.
East is YOH (sunrise), west is IN (sunset).
South is YOH (hot), north is IN (cold).
In the thought, maybe east is more YOH than south. That is, east is
primary YHO in compass directions. North is primary IN similarly. And
order of middle parts became by chance,
Japan: east west south north
YOH(primary)-IN(opposite of east)-YOH(secondary)-IN(opposite of
south).
China: east south west north
YOH(primary)-YOH(secondary)-IN(secondary)-IN(primary)
http://www.asamiryo.jp/rekisi12.html (wrote in japanese)
This page has explained about chinese order. See the last section of
it.
Does someone know about compass directions order in another country in
far east asia? For example Korea, Vietnam. I guess east is first in
almost all.
#Sorry for my poor english.
--
ISHIKAWA
Dennis
person faces the south, the sun rises on the left in the east, crosses over
the south, sets on the right in the west, and then passes behind the earth
in the north. The east symbolizes yang within yin, as light (yang) begins to
grow within the darkness (yin). The south, the point of orientation in
Chinese is yang within yang, or maximum yang, the most light. The west
symbolizes yin within yang, as darkness (yin) begins to grow within the
light (yang). North symbolizes yin within yin, as it is the most yin, the
most dark. Chinese simply follows the order of the sun across the sky, as
this is the source of recognizing yang and yin.
Japanese borrowed much from China, including the concepts of yin and yang.
However, there are important differences.
The Chinese language orients to the point. Each word is one syllable, words
have no inflections, etc. Each word in a point unto itself. Therefore,
Chinese cardinal points move in the same order as the primary points of yang
and yin throughout the day. Japanese, however, orients toward the line.
Words are not single points, but are multiple syllables oriented linearly.
Words are inflected, etc., and form linear units of meaning. The cardinal
points reflect this. East is still first, as it is on the left, where the
sun rises. However, this point is the beginning of a line, which is then
completed, and west is second. Yang before yin. The second line follows.
South is first, because it is yang. The other end of the line, north,
follows. Thus, in Japanese, the order is east, west, south, north. This is
the same as with Chinese, but the first point of each pair begins a line,
and is followed by the point that ends the line.
> BTW, several articles I found say that north-
> east-south-west order is used in the U.S.
> Any idea about this?
Where did you read this? In the U.S., the usual order is north, south, east,
west. I have never heard your order, and it is certainly not common.
Dennis
"Ken Kato" <kato....@cij.co.jp> wrote in message
news:bkbom2$c2a$1...@hawaii.ykhm.cij.co.jp...
>
> I've done a little more research on this, and it
> is most likely that east-south-west-north order
> comes from feng-shui. You can find many articles
> about this in the net.
>
> BTW, several articles I found say that north-
> east-south-west order is used in the U.S.
> Any idea about this?
>
>
> Ken Kato wrote on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:52:00 +0900
> in article <bkb6ct$kmn$1...@hawaii.ykhm.cij.co.jp>: