firaq
bhav...@gmail.com
firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise
use huaa?
Bhavana
UVR
Bhavana ji,
'aam bolchaal meN (i.e., colloquially) "firaaq" kaa aisaa ist'emaal
paayaa jaa saktaa hai. albatta, I am not sure it exactly means
"khoj" (search). It's more like being fascinated by/obsessed with/
captivated by/... etc. "kisi [ki] dhun meN rahne" yaa "kisi soch meN
gum/Doobe rahne" kaa-saa matlab is ist'emaal se nikalaa jaa saktaa
hai.
As for exactly how this usage might have come about, your guess is as
good as mine. But here's a thought: what are the various things that
happen when you're separated from someone? -- subH-o-shaam usee ke
KhayaaloN meN gum rahnaa, din-raat aaNkhoN kaa usee ki "talaash"
karnaa, waGhairah, waGhairah. hai naa?
-UVR.
PS: pichhle saal ek filmi gaana kaafi mashhoor ho gayaa thaa jis meN
'firaaq' ko in 'aam ma'anoN meN liyaa gayaa thaa -- "kyooN ... khoye
khoye chand ki firaaq meN, talaash meN, udaas hai dil" (Khoya Khoya
Chand (2007). Lyricist: Prasoon Joshi)
Naseer
> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski
> firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise
> use huaa?
> Bhavana
Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst
reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq",
a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche
into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then
the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
can be thought of as:
But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original
sentence and needs to be understood.
lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai.
What do you think?
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Jamil
firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just
Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of
obsession or paagal-pan.
Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and
Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu).
Does "maza" fall into this category?
Jamil
Naseer
janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come
across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the
connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern
development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is
masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent,
then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is
implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai?
I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai."
for example.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
UVR
Yes, I have heard 'mazaa', 'mazaak' and even 'gussaa' being
colloquially used as if they were feminine words.
However, while AFAIK, the feminine charchaa in Hindi is a direct
relative of the Sanskrit "charchaa" (also feminine), no such
relationship exists between any of the other words I have mentioned
and their colloquial versions. I could be wrong, but I think those
are truly 'vulgar' forms.
Two other words, that we have previously talked about on ALUP, which
seem to occur in both their masculine as well as feminine forms are
"khoj" and "saaNs." The saaNs discussion occurred earlier this year,
and the khoj one, a few years ago (I believe the 'khoj' thread had the
benefit of your participation as well).
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
I had been meaning to say a few words in this thread but kept
putting off my response.
While the dictionary meaning or the "nast'aleeq" meaning of
the word has been explained in the thread, I feel the sense
in the examples quoted by Bhaavna-ji is something like
"fikr" or "dhun", and that too in a slightly vulgar connota-
tion. By "vulgar", I don't mean anything obscene or risque,
but something like slang which the semi-literate folks are
wont to use. For instance, if someone is just sitting
quietly (lost in thought), his friend may ask him : "Are
bhaiyya, kis firaaq men ho". And here too, the word may be
pronounced more like "phiraak". It doesn't mean "search",
"talaash" or "khoj" in a serious sense. The inquiry from
the friend is more in the sense of "a penny for your thoughts",
or "(baiThe baiThe) kya soch rahe ho".
Agar 'A' 'B' ke firaaq men hai, to matlab GHaaliban yeh hai ke
'A' 'B' se milne ya baat karne ya paane ki fikr men hai. The
sense is definitely vulgar.
In the late seventies, there was a film called "Anurodh" stg.
Rajesh Khanna. Anand Bakhshi (film lyricist) had written a
song in that movie, which had become quite popular, the opening
line being "Aate jaate KHoobsoorat aawaara saRkoN pe...". The
word "firaaq" was used in the concluding part of the song :
"Kaash phir kal raat jaisee barsaat ho
Aur meri us ki kaheeN mulaaqaat ho
Lambi lambi raatoN men neeNd naheeN jab aati
Kabhi kabhi is firaaq se
Kitne haseen KH(w)aab ban jaate haiN
Un men se kuchh KH(w)aab bhool jaate haiN
Kuchh yaad reh jaate haiN......."
In the earlier part of the song, the lyricist had used words
like "ittefaaq" and "mazaaq". It is likely, therefore, that
he used "firaaq" because of the rhyming pattern. Somehow,
I am inclined to think that the word was used here in its
vulgar connotation only.
Afzal
UVR
Naseer saahib,
Re: the colloquial implication of firaaq (firaak!), please see Afzal
saahib's response to your post and juxtapose it against my very first
post in this thread, responding to Bhavana ji, wherein I had said
pretty much the same thing.
I cannot begrudge anyone the right to think less than nothing of my
knowledge (such as it is) of colloquial Hindi -- I have been at the
receiving end of that sort of prejudice all my life -- but one cannot
but be in awe of Afzal saahib's formidable experience with spoken
Urdu, and not only just any spoken Urdu, but that used in the various
parts of the Indian subcontinent. It gives him the kind of authority
over our language that few other ALUPers (can hope to) possess.
If I may, I think this matter should be treated as settled and closed
after Afzal saahib's response.
-UVR.
Jamil
UVR Sahib
The matter is indeed settled after Afzal Sahib's very illuminating
post, and should have been after your first post on the subject, but
please let me respond to Naseer Sahib's query as to what my source
is. Fairoz-ul-lughaat gives the alternative meaning as "fikr" or
"Khayaal", but I admit I had not seen it used anywhere until now,
until now that is when I read Afzal Sahib's post.
Jamil
Naseer
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
jaisaa kih UVR Sahib ne ishaarah kiyaa hai, aap ke 'uluum ke KHazaane
se ham jaise log daNg rahe ba-Ghair nahiiN rah sakte awr is meN zarrah
bhar shak nahiiN kih ALUP ke tavassut se aap ke saath hamaaraa vaastah
ham sab ke liye baa'is-i-KHush-nasiibii hai!
aap ne baRii tafsiil se hameN bataayaa hai kih roz-marrah bol-chaal
meN lafz "firaaq" kaise bartaa jaataa hai. UVR Sahib awr Jamil Sahib
ne bhii is ke kam-o-besh vahii ma'ne bataa'e haiN jin kaa aap ne zikr
kiyaa hai. lekin, aap kii taHriir meN mujhe ek baat kii kamii maHsuus
hu'ii hai awr vuh yih hai kih Bhavanaa jii ke savaal ke mutaabiq
"firaaq" mu'annis hai magar aap ke jumloN se yih vaaziH nahiiN hu'aa.
unhoN ne likhaa thaa..
"Lekin vo uski firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai?"
kyaa aap is nukte par kuchh raushanii Daal sakte haiN?
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
First, I must thank you for your kind words. And this holds
good for both UVR Saheb and Jamil Saheb.
As far as I know, "firaaq" (in ordinary colloquial bol~chaal)
is used as a masculine word.
Afzal
UVR
Afzal saahib,
I think that when employed in the sense of "dhun, soch, Khayaal" etc,
the word is also employed as if it were feminine in gender. I have
supplied an example from the pen of Prasoon Joshi in my reply to
Bhavana ji: kyooN khoye khoye chaand *ki* firaaq meN ,etc.
For those who may not know (i.e., NOT Afzal saahib), Mr. Joshi is a
lyricist in the Gulzar mould (at least in terms of the kind of
language and metaphors he uses), who has recently received much
acclaim for his work in Hindi films.
-UVR.
bhav...@gmail.com
Thank you so much for clearing my doubts.
Ek aur sawaal poochhnaa chaahti hoon: ye Bhavanaji kaun hain? Main to
sirf Bhavana hoon. ALUP ki class mein sirf ek taalib ilm. :)
Shukriya.
Bhavana
Naseer
Jamil Sahib wrote:
> > > firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just
> > > Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of
> > > obsession or paagal-pan.
>
> > > Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and
> > > Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu).
> > > Does "maza" fall into this category?
UVR Sahib wrote:
> I think that when employed in the sense of "dhun, soch, Khayaal" etc,
> the word is also employed as if it were feminine in gender. I have
> supplied an example from the pen of Prasoon Joshi in my reply to
> Bhavana ji: kyooN khoye khoye chaand *ki* firaaq meN ,etc.
> For those who may not know (i.e., NOT Afzal saahib), Mr. Joshi is a
> lyricist in the Gulzar mould (at least in terms of the kind of
> language and metaphors he uses), who has recently received much
> acclaim for his work in Hindi films.
> but be in awe of Afzal saahib's formidable experience with spoken
> Urdu, and not only just any spoken Urdu, but that used in the various
> parts of the Indian subcontinent. It gives him the kind of authority
> over our language that few other ALUPers (can hope to) possess.
>
> If I may, I think this matter should be treated as settled and closed
> after Afzal saahib's response.
Afzal Sahib wrote:
> As far as I know, "firaaq" (in ordinary colloquial bol~chaal)
> is used as a masculine word.
After reading Afzal Sahib's latest post I can concur with you that the
matter is settled and closed.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
UVR
Bhavana-ji,
"ALUP ki class" kaa yahi taur-tareeqa hai k yahaaN har kisi ko apne
naam par shri/janaab/mohtaram/... ki "seeNg" yaa jii/saahib/
saahibaa/... ki "pooNchh" lagwaani hi paRti hai. aur kabhi donoN.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
I am sure Naseer Saheb will be able to find (and post) the
Urdu/Faarsi equivalents of these two words which seem to be
"lese ALUP".
Afzal