Urdu lab-o-lahjah
Naseer
Recently janaab-i- Afzal Sahib and janaab-i-UVR Sahib had a little
discussion on the terms "accent-free" Urdu and "impeccable" Urdu.
Perhaps due to the fact that the thread title was "Farida Rehman's
Dadra" and not Urdu pronunciation, this discussion came to a sudden
and unexpected end.
I suspect what Afzal Sahib meant by "accent-free" Urdu is any Urdu
which is spoken by a non-Urdu speaker that does not have any trace of
the speaker's own mother tongue influence, e.g. Bengali, Punjabi etc.
Both UVR Sahib and Afzal Sahib have rightly pointed out that there are
"accents" within a particular language group itself. So, one can not
really have an accent free language since we may have Lucknow accent,
Delhi accent, Hyderabad accent, Bareley accent and so on and so forth.
Accent may change within a space of a few miles. One could have
seperate accents in one family if one's mother and father are from
different parts of the country and the children may end up as having
mixed accents!
As for impeccable Urdu, I believe, as Afzal Sahib has indicated, one
can speak without blemish even if one's mother tongue is not Urdu.
This may be achieved by sheer hard work, consciously striving for
perfection and being absorbed in the linguistic and cultural
atmosphere of the language area.
Why the new generation has been unable to preserve the inheritence of
its ancestors is not so straightforward to answer. It seems to be the
general norm that one can not match one's parents in the quality of
language. My knowledge of Punjabi is no where near as good as my
parents' command of it. I have been influenced by Urdu and English and
this influence has been at the expence of Punjabi. The generation of
those people who spoke "impeccable" Urdu in Pakistani media, such as
Ubaidullah Baig, Qureshpur, Suraiya Bajiya, Anwar Maqsood, Qazi Wajid,
Jamshed Ansari are a dying breed. I doubt very much if their off-
spring will speak anywhere near as good as their mothers and fathers.
I believe there are not only educational and economic factors at play
here but also, and most importantly, cultural factors too. One needs
to be absorbed in the Urdu linguistic environment in such a way that
one lives by breathing it. The new gas being breathed is of course
English and the result is that, on the whole, nah idhar ke rahe nah
udhar ke(:
On a lighter note, here are a few videos, you may enjoy.
Hyderabi accent
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ow6eOH6p5L8 ...part 1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jVb8egzfYmk ....part 2
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm1gS_ip9F4 ....part 3
Bihari accent
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MulJFLSxyfs .....part 1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rTbCzrsB2JI&feature=related ...part 2
Delhi accent
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6b9WHp_SLio&feature=related ....part 1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DMBxRYNhSxk&feature=related ..part2
"impeccableUrdu"
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SoV5wM07U&feature=related
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
At the outset, let me state that I have not yet seen the TouTube
links furnished by you.
This issue arose out of a cursory remark by me, made en passant,
that "the singer could be a Bengali lady". Shri Joshi, who has
lived in Calcutta for many years, seemed to disagree. He said :
"Mujhe to Bangladesh ki naheeN lagti haiN. Un ke pronunciation
men koi bhi Bengali jhalak naheeN dikhaee deti".
Thereafter, I had cited the examples of some eminent people hailing
from Bengal whose Urdu pronunciation was very good. It is also
true that not every Bengali can speak Urdu or even hindi properly.
A noteworthy example is the Indian playback singer Manna Dey who
can sing quite well, but his ordinary conversation in hindi
is rather "grating", containing too many grammatical errors.
Having recapitulated the background, let me now state that "good",
"excellent" and "impeccable" are merely adjectives and refer to
a speaker's purity of diction. And it isn't as if such "pure" or
even "impeccable" pronunciation is something highly exalted or
sublime or dignified or esoteric or recondite. There was a time,
not so long ago, when such pronunciation was quite commonplace in
many parts of India. Such may no longer be the case. And it is a
state of affairs that can be very distressing for people like me.
But, at the end of the day, there is little that we can do about
it.
UVR Saheb asked as to what exactly was "impeccable" pronunciation.
I have tried to answer that question in the preceding paragraph.
There can be a hundred examples cited --- of people who speak
correct Urdu. To make things simpler, we can think about people
from the film and TV industry. Let us leave aside people like
Dilip Kumar. Pradeep Kumar, who was a Bengali, could speak excell-
ent Urdu. The late Rehman was another such. An old-time character
actor Badri Prasad used to speak very good Urdu. Singers like Lata
and Asha (who are Maharashtrians) spoke very good Urdu. Talat
Mehmood and Naushad Ali were "native" Urdu speakers. You have
correctly cited the example of Qazi Wajid. You may perhaps
recall the name (and speaking style) of a Pakistani radio news -
reader Shakeel Ahmed who used to be on the air 4/5 times a week
in the late forties and early fifties.
You have rightly pointed out that people from the Punjab and
Bengal can have a distinct Punjabi or Bengali accent when they
speak Urdu. This is only to be expected. But even these people
can still pronounce Urdu words quite correctly. In Indian films,
these accents (Bengali and also South Indian) have been used often
as a sort of laughter-evoking device. Which is not fair.
In some earlier thread, I had mentioned that Faarsi was still the
language preferred by the "ashraaf" as recently as the eighteenth
and nineteenth century. Many poetic compilations about Urdu poets
(Tazkiras) were written in Faarsi. Allama Shibli used to write
most of his letters in Faarsi. And he is a comparatively recent
figure (d. 1914). Today, you will be lucky to find even 2000
Faarsi speakers in India. There is a medical term which you may
have come across in some other cotext : "disuse atrophy". That
in fact is the malaise which is affecting Urdu today. If today's
children cannot have opportunities to learn Urdu in schools, how
can they impart its knowledge to their progeny ? And thereby hangs
a tale. And a sad one, at that.
Afzal
Naseer
On Jun 7, 4:56 am, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> At the outset, let me state that I have not yet seen the TouTube
> links furnished by you.
Please do watch these videos. You will be doubly thrilled since they
are, in one way or another, connected with your favourite sport!
I don't have any issues whatsoever with all that you have said. I
don't know about Shakeel Ahmed Sahib who would have been around before
my time. Could he be the presenter in the video below?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_BdQDNGw3X0&feature=related ta'leem-i-
baaliGhaaN....part1
Here is another video from a Pakistani drama "shahzorii" written by
Haseena Mu'een. I think you'll enjoy the language.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lRfbdgRbr68&feature=related
shahzorii...part 1
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
prem_...@yahoo.com
> baaliGhaaN....part1
>
> Here is another video from a Pakistani drama "shahzorii" written by
> Haseena Mu'een. I think you'll enjoy the language.
>
> shahzorii...part 1
>
> KHair-Khvaah,
> Naseer- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dosto,
This is a very interesting subject. But, What is impeccable
Urdu?? correct pronunciation?? or use of correct grammer and
correct pronunciation ? what about choice of words ? Here I am
differentiating between bazaari Urdu spoken by the common man, as
compared to reading Ghalib ke khutoot.. Please enlighten us Naseer
and Afzal bhai .
Naseer bhai , Your examples were great. I haven't lived in
Hyderabad, so I dont know , but Delhi and Bihar Urdu pronunciation
were remarkablely accurate. I agree that Pakistan drama's have
excellent Urdu. I consider that daily use spoken good Pakistani
Urdu. There is a difference between that and the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwSnsNOCGek&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mtpdZqEqNU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJ3-WyNYWs (Pakistani Urdu)
This to me is Indian Urdu from Delhi, Lucknow, Aligarh, Allahabad. Not
daily spoken Urdu but literary Urdu.
aap ka kya khayal hai
Prem Joshi
Afzal A. Khan
Mukarramee Naseer Saheb,
Essentially, we are in agreement on all points.
The crux of my viewpoint can be summarized as under :
1. "Good/impeccable" pronunciation is not like the Holy Grail
that one has to spend a lifetime searching for it. It can be
all around us. Though it is true that people who speak thus
are a dwindling lot.
2. If some people, whose mother tongue is different, learn to
speak faultless Urdu, it is an achievement to be greatly
admired and respected. I had cited some Bengali names in
this regard.
3. Nobody should look down upon people whose Urdu pronunciation
is not all that pure, or which is affected by other linguistic
influences. If one was born in a family where Urdu was consi-
dered a "household servant (ghar ki kaneez ya ghar ki baaNdi
-- a phrase of those days)", it is an accident of birth.
4. Even today, good speakers abound in our Film & TV industry.
There are a great many people of Bengali origin in the Indian
TV industry, and I am always amazed to note the felicity with
which they pronounce Urdu words and expressions.
Shakeel Ahmed and others of his period may have been there before
your time. But it was always a pleasure to hear his deep,
sonorous, barrel-chested voice: "Yeh Radio Pakistan hai, ab aap
Shakeel Ahmed ki zabaani KHabreN suniye". Many people in those
days, young men as also school boys, used to imitate his style,
much to everybody's amusement. His death some years ago was
widely mourned throughout the country. I believe he too was
from Bengal (Calcutta). Other news-readers of the time (having
"impeccable" pronunciation were Masood Taabish and Anwar Behzaad.
Perhaps some of your elderly family members or other friends can
tell you more about them.
When the last Indian General Elections were to be held and
political campaigning had reached a crescendo, the then Indian
Prime Minister made a grandiose promise : "We are going to
appoint Two Crore Urdu teachers". When told that he was going a
little overboard, the figure was soon whittled down to Two Lakhs.
Nobody thought it fit to ask where were the schools which could
absorb such numbers, as everybody knew this was merely a well-
worn election rhetoric. Now the next General Elections are round
the corner and, maybe, someone else would make similar empty
promises.
I had once quoted a Faani sher and likened the Urdu language to
the poet himself :
Mar mar ke ji raha hai Faani
Allah re us ki saKHt~jaani
Afzal
UVR
> >http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DMBxRYNhSxk&feature=related ..part2
>
> > "impeccableUrdu"
>
> >http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SoV5wM07U&feature=related
Naseer and Afzal Khan saahibaan,
To Naseer saahib, at the outset, allow me to convey my thanks for
starting a separate thread on this topic.
To both of you, please allow me to state that there is a very
significant difference, at least in my mind, between "accent-free"
diction and "impeccable" diction. In the Farida Rehman thread, Afzal
saahib's position seemed to be that these are one and the same thing.
That's why I was trying to chase down the roots of "accent-free".
In my opinion, "impeccable" diction signifies correctness in grammar
and idiom (muhaawara) and, in the case of Urdu, a non-caricaturing way
of pronouncing our "special consonants", viz., qaaf, Khe and
Ghayn[1]. I believe that a person can have, say, a Punjabi, Lucknowi
or Hyderabadi accent, even a 'pronounced' one (pun unintended) and
still have impeccable pronunciation as described above. Personally
speaking, sometimes the accent is quite endearing -- take Mohammed
Rafi's for example.
"Accent free" diction, in my mind, is something that does not really
exist. I believe that it is possible to discern an accent in any
speech, and that it is possible for someone possessing the skills and
experience of Professor Higgins of "My Fair Lady"[2] to identify the
geographical origins of said accent (I hasten to add that I am not
possessed of such skills).
In closing, I should say that I don't really have a fundamental
disagreement with anyone about what "good" (or "great") Urdu
pronunciation is.
-UVR.
[1] "Impeccable" diction, to me, however, does not include the
'stilted' variety where special effort is made to imitate the Arabic
pronunciation of ALL Arabic consonants. You know the kind I mean.
[2] I can't believe I made a reference to Pygmalion TWICE in the span
of one week. And that too on ALUP!
Afzal A. Khan
UVR Saheb,
At the outset, let me make it clear that I am no Prof. Higgins.
Secondly, I am inclined to agree with what you say in part 1
of your postscript.
Thirdly, I don't quite know whether people with Punjabi/Bengali/
Hyderabadi accents can usually speak correct, idiomatic, "baa ~
mohaavara", "sheen~qaaf se durust" Urdu as a matter of course. The
native accent is capable of interfering with the normal/good Urdu
pronunciation. Leaving Urdu aside for a moment, let us consider
the greeting "Namaskar". A Bengali-accented person is liable to
pronounce it as "Nomushkar(a)". Our own Sarwar Saheb usually
addressed some ALUPers as "Namaskaara". IIRC, you yourself have
been addressed like that. A typically Bhopali accent may turn "kya
ho raha hai" into "kya ho riya hai". If a person from Hyderabad
uses his native accent, the result can hardly be called as
"impeccable". If one hears the word "KHasam" from a lady, it is
quite likely that she is referring to the word "oath", rather than
complaining about her husband. I am sure Naseer Saheb can post
some link about the Punjabi-accented Urdu. I believe (but am open
to correction) that the expression "haq ki tableeGH" would be
pronounced as "hak ki tableeg" in Punjabi-accented Urdu. This
may not be "correct", but that is no reason to look down upon
such people. All this is simply my own view, and I have no
credentials in the field of linguistics.
Probably, this is what Joshi Saheb meant when he said
that he couldn't see (i.e. hear) any Bengali "jhalak" in the Urdu
diction of Ms. Farida Rehman.
What I did say was that it was still possible for many people from
different geographical areas to sort of overcome or forget their
native accents and speak "good/impeccable" Urdu. I had cited
several examples, like news-reader Shakeel Ahmed who hailed from
Calcutta, Pradeep Kumar (a true-blue Bengali) and Ahmed Rushdie
etc.
Afzal
Naseer
On Jun 7, 4:49 pm, prem_jo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> This is a very interesting subject. But, What is impeccable
> Urdu?? correct pronunciation?? or use of correct grammer and
> correct pronunciation ? what about choice of words ? Here I am
> differentiating between bazaari Urdu spoken by the common man, as
> compared to reading Ghalib ke khutoot.. Please enlighten us Naseer
> and Afzal bhai .
IMHO, a speaker of "impeccable Urdu" need not be a "native" Urdu
speaker, since many many native speakers often make pronunciation and
grammar mistakes. This should not surprise anyone as we have all heard
"native" English speakers use such language as " We was going". These
ought to be even more "unforgiveable" compared with non-native
speakers where one can expect such errors. In addition to correct
pronunciation and grammar, impeccable Urdu speakers would be expected
to employ correct Urdu idioms. The form of vocabulary will vary
according to the subject matter and one can therefore have "political
Urdu", "religious Urdu", "educated Urdu" "scientific Urdu" and
"literary Urdu" etc. Instead of the phrase "baazaarii Urdu" which
carries certain negative connotations, I would prefer to use
"colloquial" or " 'aam bol-chaal Urdu", which can still be spoken
"impeccably"..i.e with correct grammar, pronunciation and idiom. The
Urdu used by Ghalib in his letters is literary Urdu even though it is
in conversational style.
> Naseer bhai , Your examples were great. I haven't lived in
> Hyderabad, so I dont know , but Delhi and Bihar Urdu pronunciation
> were remarkablely accurate. I agree that Pakistan drama's have
> excellent Urdu. I consider that daily use spoken good Pakistani
> Urdu. There is a difference between that and the following:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwSnsNOCGek&NR=1
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mtpdZqEqNU&feature=related
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJ3-WyNYWs(Pakistani Urdu)
>
> This to me is Indian Urdu from Delhi, Lucknow, Aligarh, Allahabad. Not
> daily spoken Urdu but literary Urdu.
I personally would not like to use "Indian Urdu" and "Pakistani Urdu"
labels. In the two examples you have cited above, I would term Ali
Sardar Ja'fari's and Ziya Muhyiddin's accents as "neutral". But this
is my view and I am no expert on accents.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Joshi Saheb,
You must have read Naseer Saheb's relpy. I am largely in agree-
ment with what he has written. There is only one point, where I
feel a little uneasy --- and that is the use of the term "native"
Urdu speaker. It is possible that the two of us (i.e. Naseer
Saheb and myself) may not mean the same thing by this term.
Instead, we can use the terms "literate", "semi-literate" and
"illiterate". One can safely assume that the speaker of "good/
impeccable" Urdu has to have some basic grounding in "literary"
Urdu. In its absence, he will not make a good showing even if he
is using "scientific" Urdu or "religious" Urdu or "political"
Urdu.
As you are no doubt aware, the word "native" actually refers to
"birth" --- a 'native' place is where a person is born and
brought up and where he learns the rudiments of his mother
tongue. So we can have a Punjab-native person, a Bengal-
native person and a Hyderabad-native person. And these regions
do happen to have peculiarities associated with the "native"
pronunciation. A good Urdu speaker from these areas learns to
sort of discard the local influences or oddities of pronun-
ciation. On the other hand, even a Lucknow-born "semi-literate"
or "illiterate" person would not be able to have an "impeccable"
pronunciation.
In my various posts in this thread, I have tried to explain my
point of view --- and I am not necessarily looking for other
people to offer agreement therewith. Like most other issues,
it is possible for people to have different opinions on this
matter too.
Like Naseer Saheb, I too wouldn't like to use the terms Indian
Urdu and Pakistani Urdu. In any case, the last (third) link
provided by you doesn't work. The links involving Ali Sardar
J'aafri do contain genuinely good Urdu.
Naseer Saheb had cited the name of Qazi Wajid. His pronuncia-
tion is definitely good and "impeccable". I don't know if he
is still acting in Pakistani dramas.
One last thing. It used to be the case that "baazaari"
women in the days of yore not only spoke excellent Urdu
but were so civilized and urbane that many youngsters from
decent (i.e. non-"baazaari" families) were sent to their
koThas for learning the nuances of the (Urdu) language and
also the subtleties of polite social behaviour.
Afzal
Naseer
> To both of you, please allow me to state that there is a very
> significant difference, at least in my mind, between "accent-free"
> diction and "impeccable" diction. In the Farida Rehman thread, Afzal
> saahib's position seemed to be that these are one and the same thing.
> That's why I was trying to chase down the roots of "accent-free".
I think "accent-free" and "impeccable" Urdu dictions are two entirely
different matters. One can be blessed with whatever accent as a co-
incidence of one's birth and still be able to speak a language
impeccably. Here of course I am insisting on both correct consonant
pronunciation and grammar and idiom.
> In my opinion, "impeccable" diction signifies correctness in grammar
> and idiom (muhaawara) and, in the case of Urdu, a non-caricaturing way
> of pronouncing our "special consonants", viz., qaaf, Khe and
> Ghayn[1]. I believe that a person can have, say, a Punjabi, Lucknowi
> or Hyderabadi accent, even a 'pronounced' one (pun unintended) and
> still have impeccable pronunciation as described above. Personally
> speaking, sometimes the accent is quite endearing -- take Mohammed
> Rafi's for example.
I think this is exactly what I have said above although I am not too
sure about Rafi. Do you have his speech or singing in mind?
> "Accent free" diction, in my mind, is something that does not really
> exist. I believe that it is possible to discern an accent in any
> speech, and that it is possible for someone possessing the skills and
> experience of Professor Higgins of "My Fair Lady"[2] to identify the
> geographical origins of said accent (I hasten to add that I am not
> possessed of such skills).
I might be contradicting myself here but, is there a such a thing as a
"neutral" Urdu accent. For example the video Joshi Sahib has
furnished, to my non-Higgian ears Ali Sardar Ja'farii comes across as
possessing "neutral" educated "accent". In other words, I wonder if
one *can* have no accent. Unless one labels this as an accent too!
> [1] "Impeccable" diction, to me, however, does not include the
> 'stilted' variety where special effort is made to imitate the Arabic
> pronunciation of ALL Arabic consonants. You know the kind I mean.
Agreed and I will go as far as to call this speech somewhat artificial
and "performed" by a particular group of people. Having said this, I
do not believe that an attempt is made to pronounce ALL Arabic
consonants. 'ain definitely, He perhaps and that's about it. It goes
without saying that we are talking about Urdu speech here and not
Qur'anic recitations.
Would you say Iftikhar Arif has an accent in the following clip or
would you agree this too is "neutral"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBN9SN0wN8w
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> Thirdly, I don't quite know whether people with Punjabi/Bengali/
> Hyderabadi accents can usually speak correct, idiomatic, "baa ~
> mohaavara", "sheen~qaaf se durust" Urdu as a matter of course. The
> native accent is capable of interfering with the normal/good Urdu
> pronunciation.
This is in no way to be taken as a "reaction" to what is stated above
because, Afzal Sahib, I believe you and others on ALUP know me too
well by now. I do think that, often, a Punjabi speaker is treated
quite harshly mainly because of the "qaaf" pronunciation whilst the
rest of the sub-continent "gets away with" not only gender mixups but
also a large number of consonant pronunciation deviations, e.g.
KH..............> kh (khaab)
Gh..............> gh (gam)
z................> j/y (jamaanah/hayaar)
f.................> ph (phankaar)
sh..............> s (saam)
b................> v ( vajaa nah the....a Faiz line quoted recently)
j.................> z (muze)
ph..............> f (falii)
> I am sure Naseer Saheb can post
> some link about the Punjabi-accented Urdu. I believe (but am open
> to correction) that the expression "haq ki tableeGH" would be
> pronounced as "hak ki tableeg" in Punjabi-accented Urdu.
I need not dwell upon the fact that Punjab is a large state (on both
sides of the border) and its people are not one homogenous group. From
the group that I am connected with, people who have never been to
school even for a day (i.e totally illiterate) pronounce KH, Gh, f and
z without any difficulty. So, your example would be pronounced "hak-i-
tabliiGh". I have tried to find a video in the same "Loose Talk"
series for a Punjabi speaker but have been unable to do so. The
following video in the "Tanz-o-Mizah" series from Zia Mohyiddin
illustrates the speech pattern of two Punjabi speakers: Ziya Mohyiddin
and Khalid Abbas Daar". I would label the former as "neutral" and the
latter as distinctly Punjabi. By the way, the latter is hugely
talented artist in the field of music and drama. I have heard him
immitate "classical" singing when I thought his performance was
incredibale. Zia Mohyiddin, of course, needs no introduction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpvpqO7eqC8&feature=related (Ziya
Mohyiddin Khalid Abbas Daar)
Below is taken from an earlier post of yours...
You have rightly pointed out that people from the Punjab and
Bengal can have a distinct Punjabi or Bengali accent when they
speak Urdu. This is only to be expected. But even these people
can still pronounce Urdu words quite correctly. In Indian
films,
these accents (Bengali and also South Indian) have been used
often
as a sort of laughter-evoking device. Which is not fair.
Agreed. Accent is part of that rainbow which illustrates the diversity
of our peoples.
In some earlier thread, I had mentioned that Faarsi was still
the
language preferred by the "ashraaf" as recently as the
eighteenth
and nineteenth century. Many poetic compilations about Urdu
poets
(Tazkiras) were written in Faarsi. Allama Shibli used to write
most of his letters in Faarsi. And he is a comparatively recent
figure (d. 1914). Today, you will be lucky to find even 2000
Faarsi speakers in India.
Iqbal died in 1938 and he was probably the last if not one of the last
truly great Farsi poets of India.
There is a medical term which you may
have come across in some other cotext : "disuse atrophy". That
in fact is the malaise which is affecting Urdu today. If
today's
children cannot have opportunities to learn Urdu in schools, how
can they impart its knowledge to their progeny ? And thereby
hangs
a tale. And a sad one, at that.
Too true!
Here are a few Ziya Mohyiddin videos on the topic of "zabaan" which, I
am sure, you and other ALUPers will enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhoFBxqSTJ4&feature=related Ziya
Mohyiddin Zabaan 1/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDFNSsL-jqg&feature=related
1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDFNSsL-jqg&feature=related
2/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGX-4S-CPrc&feature=related
2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jKQ_8IVh8A&feature=related
2/3
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
> Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
Please accept my apologies if I have hurt your feelings in any
way.
Having said that, let me emphasize that Punjab (on both sides of
the border) is merely a geographical region, just like Bengal or
Hyderabad. Also, the fact remains that the "native" Urdu speakers
of all three regions do happen to have a distinct 'accent' which
tends to affect correct/proper/"impeccable" pronunciation. As
already stated by me earlier, we ought to appreciate and respect
people who can (and do) rise above their ethnic/linguistic influ-
ences and acquire what you have referred to as "neutral" pronun-
ciation. But, personally, I am not quite happy with this word.
It is --- well --- just too "neutral". And impersonal. I don't
see why correct/proper/"impeccable" pronunciation should be "down-
graded" to just "neutral". Aren't such speakers being "penalized"
for no reason ? In fact, such pronunciation can be a sort of
standard for others to aspire to.
BTW, our discussion centres round SPOKEN Urdu, not written Urdu.
And, therefore, your complaint that Punjabi speakers are treated
very harshly (while other ethnic speakers "get away with it") is
not justified insofar as our NG is concerned. Here, we do "speak"
our mind from time to time, but it is always in writing.
And the logic you have used in preferring this complaint is not
valid. In rebuttal, I would like to use an example from a field
with which you must be very familiar. Have your ever seen a court
or judge uphold the defence of an accused who protests his own
prosecution on the ground that a hundred others (equally culpable)
are roaming the streets scot-free ?
I propose to see and hear all the video links furnished by you
later.
Afzal
UVR
> > Mohyiddin Zabaan 1/1
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDFNSsL-jqg&feature=related
> > 1/2
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDFNSsL-jqg&feature=related
Afzal saahib,
If I have correctly construed your position on the matter of
'accented' versus 'impeccable' speech via this thread (and please do
correct me if I am wrong), it seems that you are basically suggesting
that a person from any region cannot achieve 'impeccable'
pronunciation unless s/he divests himself of every trace of the native
flavor of his own language. If I may say so, I find this a rather
strange and unnecessarily restrictive position to take.
Since we have zero'ed in (unfortunately) on Punjabis, I think the time
is opportune to ask you what you think of the accents of Mohammed Rafi
and Ghulam Ali -- do they, or don't they, have 'impeccable'
pronunciation, as you define it? I think they do, never mind the
(occasionally heavy) Punjabi lilt on their tongues. Vasmi saahib will
probably bear testament to the fact that Ahmed Faraz's Urdu is less
Punjabi accented, and he makes no attempt to hide it (for example,
when he is in a mushaa'ira). Nevertheless, I doubt there can be an
accusation made that his Urdu is not 'sheen qaaf se durust'.
Elsewhere, you have alluded to the propensity of the 'average'
Hyderabadi (Deccani) Urdu speaker to use "qHa" where "qa" is intended
(e.g., "qHasam" vs. "qasam"). I feel I should add two things -- (a)
the sound of the 'qH', when "correctly" pronounced, is slightly
different from that of the "KH" (as in Khushboo or Khudaa) and (b)
there do exist Hyderabadis who have good Urdu diction -- the poet
Khwah-m-Khwah is one, Talat Aziz (notwithstanding his less than
stellar musical skills), another.
Speaking of "native" accents, there is at least one from UP that
sports a Re (peR, ghaRaa) which is best described as "more retroflex
than retroflex itself!" When these people say "laRkaa" or "paRhnaa",
it's as if their tongues literally STRIKE their palate! But should
this one peculiarity disqualify their speech from deserving the
impeccability 'tamGha'?
I guess what I am asking is whether it is possible that "impeccable"
constitutes not one but a (fairly wide) r-a-n-g-e of pronunciations.
Is it really necessary for an Urdu speaker to (clinically) excise
every residue of his own linguistic identity from his diction in order
to be able to be accepted as "impeccable?" There is a certain
"Khushboo" in the "miTTi" of every part of our language's geography,
and can any manner of speech not imbued with that fragrance be really
enjoyable?
-UVR.
UVR
I think you and I have found one topic on which we are in vehement
agreement! :)
On Jun 9, 2:54 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 8, 3:50 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In my opinion, "impeccable" diction signifies correctness in grammar
> > and idiom (muhaawara) and, in the case of Urdu, a non-caricaturing way
> > of pronouncing our "special consonants", viz., qaaf, Khe and
> > Ghayn[1]. I believe that a person can have, say, a Punjabi, Lucknowi
> > or Hyderabadi accent, even a 'pronounced' one (pun unintended) and
> > still have impeccable pronunciation as described above. Personally
> > speaking, sometimes the accent is quite endearing -- take Mohammed
> > Rafi's for example.
>
> I think this is exactly what I have said above although I am not too
> sure about Rafi. Do you have his speech or singing in mind?
>
BOTH! Although in his speech he sported a much heavier Punjabi accent
than in his singing, the latter was far from "free of all
affectation." But then, to me, this is one of the aspects of Rafi's
singing that makes him so much dearer to me.
> > "Accent free" diction, in my mind, is something that does not really
> > exist. I believe that it is possible to discern an accent in any
> > speech, and that it is possible for someone possessing the skills and
> > experience of Professor Higgins of "My Fair Lady"[2] to identify the
> > geographical origins of said accent (I hasten to add that I am not
> > possessed of such skills).
>
> I might be contradicting myself here but, is there a such a thing as a
> "neutral" Urdu accent. For example the video Joshi Sahib has
> furnished, to my non-Higgian ears Ali Sardar Ja'farii comes across as
> possessing "neutral" educated "accent". In other words, I wonder if
> one *can* have no accent. Unless one labels this as an accent too!
>
Doesn't this just BEG the question? I'll verbalize it -- what is it,
EXACTLY, that makes this not just another accent?
> Would you say Iftikhar Arif has an accent in the following clip or
> would you agree this too is "neutral"?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBN9SN0wN8w
He *does* have an accent. Listen to the way he is saying "subH" in
"subH sawere". That doesn't sound neutral to me. Especially when we
pay attention to the other 'voice' which repeats that phrase with a
totally different way of saying "subH". I'm not sure which
geographical region Arif saahib's accent primarily belongs to; maybe
Afzal saahib can pick it out.
-UVR.
Naseer
> Please accept my apologies if I have hurt your feelings in any
> way.
janaab-i-muHtaram Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
vahii huaa jis kaa KHadshah thaa!! No sir, nothing of the sort has
happened. My feelings are not *that* fragile that they would get hurt
very easily. In fact they are quite hardy and stubborn!!:)
> Having said that, let me emphasize that Punjab (on both sides of
> the border) is merely a geographical region, just like Bengal or
> Hyderabad. Also, the fact remains that the "native" Urdu speakers
> of all three regions do happen to have a distinct 'accent' which
> tends to affect correct/proper/"impeccable" pronunciation. As
> already stated by me earlier, we ought to appreciate and respect
> people who can (and do) rise above their ethnic/linguistic influ-
> ences and acquire what you have referred to as "neutral" pronun-
> ciation. But, personally, I am not quite happy with this word.
> It is --- well --- just too "neutral". And impersonal. I don't
> see why correct/proper/"impeccable" pronunciation should be "down-
> graded" to just "neutral". Aren't such speakers being "penalized"
> for no reason ? In fact, such pronunciation can be a sort of
> standard for others to aspire to.
Yes I agree that a person such as Ziya Mohyiddin is being penalised
when his accent is referred to as "neutral". I used this term for want
of a better word. In essence, my *neutral" accent would be equivalent
to "BBC English", if this makes sense.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
>> As already stated by me earlier, we ought to appreciate and respect
>> people who can (and do) rise above their ethnic/linguistic influ-
>> ences and acquire what you have referred to as "neutral" pronun-
>> ciation. But, personally, I am not quite happy with this word.
>> It is --- well --- just too "neutral". And impersonal. I don't
>> see why correct/proper/"impeccable" pronunciation should be "down-
>> graded" to just "neutral". Aren't such speakers being "penalized"
>> for no reason ? In fact, such pronunciation can be a sort of
>> standard for others to aspire to.
>
> Yes I agree that a person such as Ziya Mohyiddin is being penalised
> when his accent is referred to as "neutral". I used this term for want
> of a better word. In essence, my *neutral" accent would be equivalent
> to "BBC English", if this makes sense.
> Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
Since we are talking about Urdu, how about some Urdu equivalents ?
The words I have in mind are "Nast'aleeq" and "Shus'ta".
Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
UVR Saheb,
Did I say that an Urdu speaker from the impugned geographical
regions must necessarily "divest" himself of "every trace" of
the native flavour ? I don't think so. Instead of putting
words in my mouth, you should appreciate that I was using
terms like "rising above" the local linguistic influences.
I think I also emphasized that such local influences "can
affect" correct/proper pronunciation. I didn't say that such
influences would do so in ALL cases with ALL people. Here,
let me quote a couple of lines from an earlier post of mine :
> I don't quite know whether people with Punjabi/Bengali/
> Hyderabadi accents can usually speak correct, idiomatic, "baa ~
> mohaavara", "sheen~qaaf se durust" Urdu as a matter of course. The
> native accent is capable of interfering with the normal/good Urdu
> pronunciation.
You will observe that I had used expressions like "as a matter of
course" and "capable of interfering".
Secondly, I haven't "zeroed in" on Punjabis, or Hyderabadis, for
that matter. I was always talking about oddities of accent found
in three principal geographical regions. No single region was
specially targeted.
I cited the example of the word "KHasam" only by way of illustra-
tion. Any number of such examples can be quoted. For instance,
when a TheTh Hyderabadi uses the word "saheeh", it sounds to my
aged ears as "saee". Truth to tell, there can't be two opinions
about the fact that people from Hyderabad do have a special
accent.
England is a far smaller country than India. Also, it doesn't
have the plethora of languages that flourish in India. But even
then, there exist in England a large number of accents, all
related to a single language. As a pointer to this, let me quote
the following paragraph :
*****************************
There is considerable variation within the accents of the
English. Notable geographical accents include West Country (the counties
of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, Gloucestershire and
Avon (Bristol); North East England (Northumberland, County Durham,
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Sunderland); North West England (Lancashire (with
regional variants in Bolton, Manchester, Blackpool and Merseyside);
Yorkshire (which has differences between the North Riding of Yorkshire,
West Riding of Yorkshire and East Riding of Yorkshire); West Midlands
(The Black Country, Dudley, Birmingham and Wolverhampton); the accents
of the counties comprising the East Midlands (Nottingham, Derby,
Leicester) and East Anglia (Norfolk and Suffolk). Even within these
broad categories there are considerable differences in inflection and
pronunciation.
The arrival of large scale immigration to England has produced another
layer of regional accents that have merged with the accents of
immigrants. Such examples include London-Caribbean, West Yorkshire mixed
with Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi.
*******************************
Maybe, I can make it clearer by a reference to cricket personali-
ties. Australian cricketers and commentators have their own
accent. I always find it difficult to understand what exactly
Ricky Ponting is saying. But he too is supposed to be speaking
in English. Even amongst British commentators, there are consi-
derable variations in pronunciation/accent. David Lloyd (he is
from Lancashire) has an accent different from Geoff Boycott (who
is from Yorkshire). West Indian commentators like Michael
Holding have their own accents. The late commentator John Arlott
had what is known as the "Hampshire Burr". For me, the cricket
commentator I liked the best was Brian Johnston. I suppose his
English was what we call the BBC English or as near to it as
possible.
I suppose even people from the "Urdu belt" might have had special
other linguistic influences that they managed to overcome while
trying to speak "shus'ta" Urdu. People like Kaifi Azmi, Firaaq
Gorakhpuri and Ali Sardar J'afri were, I daresay, quite capable
of using the Bhojpuri dialect of the "Ka kahat ho ?" type.
In a reply to Naseer Saheb, and in this post too, I have used the
word "shus'ta" Urdu. Briefly, I can say that this term encom-
passes a combination of "Standard English" and "Received
Pronunciation". Just my opinion.
Lastly, I don't quite know why we are still belabouring this
issue about the "lab-o-lehja" of SPOKEN Urdu, when we are not
experts in this field.
So it is high time we ended this discussion.
Afzal
Naseer
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, salaam 'arz hai.
According to my "sources", "nasta'liiq" means cultured/soft-spoken/
facile and "shustah" means cultured/chaste/pure/neat. I think your
suggestions "received" or "standard" pronunciation would fit the bill.
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
>>> In essence, my *neutral" accent would be equivalent
>>> to "BBC English", if this makes sense.
>>> Naseer
>> Naseer Saheb,
>>
>> Since we are talking about Urdu, how about some Urdu equivalents ?
>> The words I have in mind are "Nast'aleeq" and "Shus'ta".
>>
>> Afzal
>
> janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, salaam 'arz hai.
>
> According to my "sources", "nasta'liiq" means cultured/soft-spoken/
> facile and "shustah" means cultured/chaste/pure/neat. I think your
> suggestions "received" or "standard" pronunciation would fit the bill.
>
> KHair-Khvaah,
> Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
I am not quite able to understand. I was thinking of a suitable
Urdu word (or two) to sort of indicate what I mean. And I thought
both these words { "nast'aleeq" and "shus'ta") suited the bill to
a 'T'.
I presume you have since seen my rejoinder to UVR Saheb, hence your
mention of the two words "Received" and "Standard". Actually, both
these words ought to be rejected for being "English", since we are
looking for Urdu equivalents. Also, these two words are not quite
synonymous in their import. "Standard" refers to something that is
grammatically/idiomatically correct etc. But it does not refer to
pronunciation. "Received" is the word normally used for the latter
i.e. pronunciation.
The two Urdu words I have suggested are suitable on both counts.
We can use "nast'aleeq" to denote "Standard" Urdu. It is also
appropriate, for "nast'aleeq" is a refined Urdu writing script,
which is still the most preferred/favoured Urdu script. And we can
use "shus'ta" to denote "Received" Urdu, i.e. the "lab-o-lehja",
which is the title chosen by you for this thread. Essentially,
this word would encompass the 'pronunciation' aspect. An ordinary
word like "phir" would be "shus'ta"; "fir" would NOT be.
Afzal
Naseer
On Jun 10, 5:52 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > "Accent free" diction, in my mind, is something that does not really
> > > exist. I believe that it is possible to discern an accent in any
> > > speech, and that it is possible for someone possessing the skills and
> > > experience of Professor Higgins of "My Fair Lady"[2] to identify the
> > > geographical origins of said accent (I hasten to add that I am not
> > > possessed of such skills).
>
> > I might be contradicting myself here but, is there a such a thing as a
> > "neutral" Urdu accent. For example the video Joshi Sahib has
> > furnished, to my non-Higgian ears Ali Sardar Ja'farii comes across as
> > possessing "neutral" educated "accent". In other words, I wonder if
> > one *can* have no accent. Unless one labels this as an accent too!
>
> Doesn't this just BEG the question? I'll verbalize it -- what is it,
> EXACTLY, that makes this not just another accent?
Agreeing with Afzal Sahib that we are not, in any shape or form,
experts on "accents", and with you that we do not have the skills of
Professor Higgins, I will still hazard a guess. You know I do not shy
away from being "adventurous"!:)
Although I myself have suggested that "no-accent" could be termed
"neutral" accent, I shall make an attempt at explaining "EXACTLY what
makes this not just another accent".
I regard myself a foreigner to Urdu as opposed to a "native" speaker
(Afzal Sahib, I was merely emulating your choice of the word "native"
and I believe we both mean one and the same thing, namely one whose
mother-tongue is Urdu). If you were to ask me what in my opinion
seperates a "native" accent, (not withstanding the fact that there are
many "native" accents) from this "neutral" accent, I am inclined to
say the following.
1) That contains "karaaraa qaaf"
2) And an even more karaaraa "Re"
3) The "ai" diphthong pronounced "fully".
4) A certain high tone at the end of the phrase/sentence.
Perhaps here I am describing only one kind of "native" accent but, for
me this is THE NATIVE accent. If a speech, which is otherwise
"impeccable" is devoid of the above "mirch-masaala", then either we
can call it "no-accent" or a "neutral" accent or "received
pronunciation". Take your pick:)
> > Would you say Iftikhar Arif has an accent in the following clip or
> > would you agree this too is "neutral"?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBN9SN0wN8w
>
> He *does* have an accent. Listen to the way he is saying "subH" in
> "subH sawere". That doesn't sound neutral to me. Especially when we
> pay attention to the other 'voice' which repeats that phrase with a
> totally different way of saying "subH". I'm not sure which
> geographical region Arif saahib's accent primarily belongs to; maybe
> Afzal saahib can pick it out.
janaab-i-Iftikhar Arif was born in Lucknow and moved to Pakistan quite
some years after independence..I think in the late 60's if not early
70s.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
> Maybe, I can make it clearer by a reference to cricket personali-
> ties. Australian cricketers and commentators have their own
> accent. I always find it difficult to understand what exactly
> Ricky Ponting is saying. But he too is supposed to be speaking
> in English. Even amongst British commentators, there are consi-
> derable variations in pronunciation/accent. David Lloyd (he is
> from Lancashire) has an accent different from Geoff Boycott (who
> is from Yorkshire). West Indian commentators like Michael
> Holding have their own accents. The late commentator John Arlott
> had what is known as the "Hampshire Burr". For me, the cricket
> commentator I liked the best was Brian Johnston. I suppose his
> English was what we call the BBC English or as near to it as
> possible.
For me, no one is comparable to "Henry Calthorpe Blofeld". What a
name! What accent!
> I suppose even people from the "Urdu belt" might have had special
> other linguistic influences that they managed to overcome while
> trying to speak "shus'ta" Urdu. People like Kaifi Azmi, Firaaq
> Gorakhpuri and Ali Sardar J'afri were, I daresay, quite capable
> of using the Bhojpuri dialect of the "Ka kahat ho ?" type.
Who amongst the well-known personlities would you say has typical
Lucknow accent?
> Lastly, I don't quite know why we are still belabouring this
> issue about the "lab-o-lehja" of SPOKEN Urdu, when we are not
> experts in this field.
>
> So it is high time we ended this discussion.
koii baat nahiiN Afzal Sahib! is KHaak-saar ko baat kar lene diijiye!
mujhe apne 'ilm kii Haqiiqat ma'luum hai lekin jii ko KHush rakhne ke
liye yih bahaanah achchhaa hai!:)
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
You are absolutely right about Iftikhar 'Arif. He was born at
Lucknow and stayed in India for about 25 years, before migrating
to Pakistan in 1965. He had obtained his Masters' Degree in
India itself, studying under such renowned scholars as Prof.
Ehtishaam Husain. He had also studied at another prestigious
institute Madrasa-e-Nizaamiya, FaraNgi Mahal. So there should be
no doubt about his being an "ahl-e-zabaan" and as a speaker of
"shus'ta" Urdu. He has also headed the prestigious Muqtadara
Qaumi Zabaan --- Authority For The National Language --- in
Pakistan.
UVR Saheb is "picking on" a word or two and trying to decide
whether a person's pronunciation is "respectable" or otherwise.
This does not seem to be a correct approach. The "lab-o-lehja"
has to be seen AS A WHOLE. Many people have a particular way
of pronouncing certain words. These can be called "variants".
For instance, one can say "bulaNd" (with a pesh). Others will
pronounce it as "balaNd" (with a zabar). Similar is the case
with words like "masarrat" ("musarrat"), "qiyaamat" ("qayaamat")
etc. In one's formative years, it is possible to acquire some
incorrect pronunciatory errors/variants, but these alone are not
sufficient for that person to be cast amongst the "untouchables".
No offence intended. Just my opinion.
I heard a ghazal in the voice of Noshi Gilani, a noted poetess.
She clearly enunciates one word as "intasaab". I believe the
correct pronunciation is "intisaab". If she is indeed wrong on
that count, should we condemn her lab-o-lehja in a "wholesale"
manner ?
Other points have already been discussed in considerable detail
in this thread.
Afzal
prem_...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dosto,
Maine "Mohobbat" lafz ke bohut say pronunciation sune hain.
Asliyat kya hai? Mehdi Hassan sahib ki ghazal "muhabbat karne wale
kum na honge "
main "Muhabbat" aap logoo ko kaisa lagta hai ?
Ek aur darkhwast hai. English-Hindu-Urdu ki aisee dictionary bata-iye
jisme
barde barde harf nastiliq font main Urdu zabaan ke 90% words mil ja-
ain.
mere kosish yehi rehte hai ke jub main koi ghazal ga-oon to
pronunciation suchcha hona chahiye. Mujhe computer friendly font
bilkul pasand nahi.
Mai Delhi say ek dicionlary lle aaya , lekin jub bhee zaroorat pari ,
vo kisi kaam nahi aa-ee. Thanks
Prem Joshi
Naseer
On Jun 11, 11:57 am, prem_jo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Maine "Mohobbat" lafz ke bohut say pronunciation sune hain.
> Asliyat kya hai? Mehdi Hassan sahib ki ghazal "muhabbat karne wale
> kum na honge "
> main "Muhabbat" aap logoo ko kaisa lagta hai ?
aap ko janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib bataaeN ge kih asl lafz "maHabbt" hai
awr vuh is baat meN bi_lkul durust farmaa rahe hoN ge. is ke saath yih
bhii kahnaa laazimii hai kih Raj Kumar Sahib ko chhoR kar ham faanii-
log "muHabbat" karte haiN "maHabbat nahiiN"!!:) ya'nii muHabbat
Ghalatu_l'aam talaffuz hai. aaKHir meN aap kii ma'luumaat ke liye yih
izaafah karnaa zaruurii hai kih 'umuum-an jab Urdu ke "u" vowel (jaise
chun_naa) ke ba'd h/H consonant aataa hai to yih "u" gol-mol ho jaataa
hai awr "o" kaa talaffuz zaahir kartaa hai. isii vajh se
"muhr"/"muHabbat"/"muhlik" vaGhairah jab bole jaate haiN to "moHabbat"
vaGhairah sun_ne meN aataa hai, samjhe janaab?
> Ek aur darkhwast hai. English-Hindu-Urdu ki aisee dictionary bata-iye
> jisme
> barde barde harf nastiliq font main Urdu zabaan ke 90% words mil ja-
> ain.
> mere kosish yehi rehte hai ke jub main koi ghazal ga-oon to
> pronunciation suchcha hona chahiye. Mujhe computer friendly font
> bilkul pasand nahi.
> Mai Delhi say ek dicionlary lle aaya , lekin jub bhee zaroorat pari ,
> vo kisi kaam nahi aa-ee.
yih link dekhiye..
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
> Who amongst the well-known personlities would you say has typical
> Lucknow accent?
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
aap ko ab is savaal ke javaab dene kii zaruurat nahiiN! mujhe afsos
hai kih aap ne bahut hii ta'Khiir kar dii hai:) Hindustaan ke kisii
kone meN merii ek bahin rahtii haiN jinhoN ne mujhe muttala' kiyaa hai
kih filmii dunyaa meN "Farooq Shaikh" kii misaal dii jaa saktii hai jo
KHaas Lakhnavii lahje se logoN ke kaanoN meN ras gholte haiN. unhoN ne
ek "Anjuman" naamii film kaa zikr kiyaa hai jis ke kirdaar kaam-yaabii
awr naa-kaamii se is lahje meN guft-o-guu karte haiN. kyaa aap log is
film se vaaqif haiN?
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
You and your Hindustaani sister are quite right. I don't think I
saw "Anjuman", but I have met Faarooq Shaikh himself on a few
occasions. In fact, we shared the same flight on a couple of
times. But why talk about "Anjuman" only ? I am sure you
must have seen Muzaffar Ali's "Umrao Jaan" which was released in
the early eighties. His diction is an absolute delight. Both
"Umrao Jaan" and an earlier film "Gaman" were classics.
BTW, he also starred in a couple of long-running TV serials
where he continued to employ his "classical" or "shus'ta" diction,
whose quaintness vis-a-vis a humdrum milieu, was quite
enjoyable.
Afzal
UVR
Even though your post below is addressed by name to Naseer saahib,
there are a couple of points here to which I feel the necessity to
respond.
On Jun 10, 4:50 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> So there should be no doubt about
> Iftikhar 'Arif's being an "ahl-e-zabaan" and as a speaker of
> "shus'ta" Urdu. He has also headed the prestigious Muqtadara
> Qaumi Zabaan --- Authority For The National Language --- in
> Pakistan.
>
> UVR Saheb is "picking on" a word or two and trying to decide
> whether a person's pronunciation is "respectable" or otherwise.
I am doing absolutely nothing of the sort!
Afzal saahib, you may consider this a "shikwa" from a younger man
against an older gent he very greatly respects, but I really have to
say that I am thoroughly disappointed at the way this paragraph
totally mischaracterizes my position, and wholly misjudges my attitude
towards what is, or is not, impeccable speech.
First off, let us take the matter of 'Arif saahib's pronunciation.
Naseer saahib had asked me a direct question -- whether Iftikhar 'Arif
has an accent in the clip or whether he has a 'neutral'
pronunciation. My answer was equally direct: I noticed that the clip
showed him sporting a particular kind of accent, and I pointed to what
I noticed.
Where did I say that Iftikhar 'Arif's diction was, as a consequence,
not "impeccable?"
Secondly, my opinon, as stated repeatedly in this thread, is that the
mere presence of an accent DOES NOT disqualify a person from having
stellar speech. Indeed, in my very first post on this thread, I had
clearly indicated my opinion of what constitutes 'impeccable' speech.
Given this, I must admit I am at a loss to understand where you got
the impression that I was trying to cast 'Arif saahib's Urdu in less
than respectable light!
I will be extremely grateful to you for an answer to this.
> This does not seem to be a correct approach. The "lab-o-lehja"
> has to be seen AS A WHOLE. Many people have a particular way
> of pronouncing certain words. These can be called "variants".
> For instance, one can say "bulaNd" (with a pesh). Others will
> pronounce it as "balaNd" (with a zabar). Similar is the case
> with words like "masarrat" ("musarrat"), "qiyaamat" ("qayaamat")
> etc. In one's formative years, it is possible to acquire some
> incorrect pronunciatory errors/variants, but these alone are not
> sufficient for that person to be cast amongst the "untouchables".
> No offence intended. Just my opinion.
>
This is almost exactly what I have said previously.
Whereas, in previous posts, I think you have advocated the stance that
people who come from backgrounds with accented speech (Punjabi,
Bengali, Madrasi) should try to divest themselves of those accents, as
completely as possible, as their accents are get in the way of "pure"
diction. In another post, you have said you'd prefer to use the
phrase "rise above" (their accents) versus "divest themselves of every
vestige of" (their accents). That's fine, although it must be said
that "to rise above" seems to imply that the native accents are an
undesirable (or at least a limiting) influence on their Urdu, one that
is liable to contaminate (or at least impede the "shus'tafication" of)
their diction. I'm not able to see why "rise above" is a better
alternative to "get rid of."
Once again, my opinion on this (also one that I have stated
previously), is that accents impart a certain delectable charm to the
Urdu of the various peoples who speak it and "rising above" is not
necessarily a critical activity. (This is not to say that you can say
'fir', 'jindagi', 'sholaamat' etc. Those are WRONG pronunciations,
not 'accents'.)
> I heard a ghazal in the voice of Noshi Gilani, a noted poetess.
> She clearly enunciates one word as "intasaab". I believe the
> correct pronunciation is "intisaab". If she is indeed wrong on
> that count, should we condemn her lab-o-lehja in a "wholesale"
> manner ?
>
You are saying what I have said previously in this thread, yet you are
saying it as if you are disagreeing with me. I just don't get it.
But I must say I am rather disappointed at the turn this discussion
has taken -- for some reason I have been painted as a person who is
out to "keechaR uchhaalify on" the Urdu of these speakers of shus'ta
Urdu speakers, while myself not being a 'native' (or worse, while
being a Delhi-wallah!).
-UVR.
Naseer
On Jun 10, 5:36 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Elsewhere, you have alluded to the propensity of the 'average'
> Hyderabadi (Deccani) Urdu speaker to use "qHa" where "qa" is intended
> (e.g., "qHasam" vs. "qasam"). I feel I should add two things -- (a)
> the sound of the 'qH', when "correctly" pronounced, is slightly
> different from that of the "KH" (as in Khushboo or Khudaa) and (b)
> there do exist Hyderabadis who have good Urdu diction -- the poet
> Khwah-m-Khwah is one, Talat Aziz (notwithstanding his less than
> stellar musical skills), another.
Could you please elaborate on the Hayerabadi "q" which you have
transcribed as "qH".
> Speaking of "native" accents, there is at least one from UP that
> sports a Re (peR, ghaRaa) which is best described as "more retroflex
> than retroflex itself!" When these people say "laRkaa" or "paRhnaa",
> it's as if their tongues literally STRIKE their palate! But should
> this one peculiarity disqualify their speech from deserving the
> impeccability 'tamGha'?
What part of UP do these sharp-Re-tongued speakers come from?
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
UVR Saheb,
Aap ka GHussa (m'aaf keejiye, shikwa) sar~aaNkhon par......
Firstly, I did not start this debate. It was Shri Prem Joshi
who first pointed out that Ms. Farida Rehman didn't seem to have
any "Bengali" jhalak in her Urdu pronunciation. Thereafter, our
worthy friend Naseer Saheb started this discussion about "lab-o-
lehja" and I recall you lauded him for starting a separate
thread.
Secondly, none of us have claimed to possess the skills of Prof.
Higgins or being experts in this field. We merely expressed our
opinions and nothing more. And, in such cases, differences of
opinion are bound to occur.
Thirdly, I have clearly explained my position that I do not
regard any particular pronunciation style as being the best or
superior to any other style. But I can't help it if there are
certain geographical regions which have specific "accents".
Fourthly, I never "zeroed in" on the Punjabi accent or any other
area's accent. To do so would have been against my juridical
temperament. I was speaking about all three regions in general
terms.
Fifthly, I have always emphasized that the discussion is essen-
tially about SPOKEN Urdu, not written Urdu. There have been
many many eminent people from the three regions whose writings
can be classified as "impeccable". It is very much possible for
an "accented" person to write perfectly sound "baa~mohaawara"
Urdu, even if he does not have an "impeccable" style of pronun-
ciation.
Sixthly, I referred to England and the English language and
pointed out the multiplicity of different pronunciations and
accents. In this context, I also talked about "Standard
English" and "Received Pronunciation", explaining the difference
between the two.
Shri Prem Joshi may not be as erudite and learned a practitioner
of Urdu as, say, your goodself and Naseer Saheb, but he seems to
be aware of what constitutes a "Bengali jhalak" in the enuncia-
tion of Urdu words in a song.
I have cited a few examples from Hyderabadi style pronunciation
and many more can be cited. These cannot be called correct Urdu
by any stretch of imagination, and the Hyderabadi inflexion is
very clearly discernible. When I was in school, I remember our
teacher trying to explain the Hyderabadi style by the following
"verse" :
AmeeraaN ke baaGHaaN men aamaaN ke jhaaRaaN
You may perhaps have heard about a lady writer Waajida Tabassum,
who used to write short stories. She has immortalized the
Hyderabadi Urdu in her writings. Now, mangoes are no doubt very
sweet and the "soNdhi miTTi" can also have a sweet smell but,
with due respect, these examples do not constitute correct/
idiomatic/baa~mohaawara Urdu. I can narrate my own experience.
If I wanted to hire a cycle-rickshaw and asked the man about
the fare in my own "nativet" accent, I would be told a compara-
tively high figure. But if I asked him in the local style, the
charge quoted was much more reasonable. In Bombay too, the
cabbies used to be (and still are) sometimes unwilling to accept
a fare if you want to go in a particular direction. However, it
was my experience that if I asked a Punjabi/Sardar driver in the
Punjabi accent (maiN~kya baadshaa-o etc.) he was much more like-
ly to take me where I wanted to go.
All that I have said is that if a particular "accent" affects
the correct pronunciation of words and expressions in a wide-
ranging sense, I would not call it "shus'ta" Urdu.
Regarding Mr. Iftikhar 'Arif : My personal opinion about his
pronunciation style was as under :
"There should be no doubt about his being an "ahl-e-zabaan"
and as a speaker of "shus'ta" Urdu."
Your opinion about him :
"Where did I say that Iftikhar 'Arif's diction was, as a
consequence, not "impeccable?".
So, aren't we in agreement about him ?
He may pronounce "subh" in a particular style. But that is his
own personal (or idiosyncratic) variant of this word. But can
we say that it represents a particular geographical/ethnic
influence ? Assuming that he has lived in Sindh or Punjab for a
long time, can we say that his "subh" is essentially a Sindhi
style or Punjabi style pronunciation ? Do all Sindhis or all
Punjabis pronounce that word in that fashion without exception ?
I talked about the poetess Noshi Gilani. She seems to pronounce
one word in a different (perhaps incorrect) way. But, overall,
her style of pronunciations seems to be OK. Essentially, there-
fore, there is no dichotomy about my position in the two cases.
It seems to me as if you are propounding a theory : If a person
is pronouncing a word or two in a somewhat different manner,
he has an "accent". And if such a person's pronunciation is
(otherwise) "shus'ta", it proves that even a person with a
(pronounced) Punjabi/Hyderabad/Bengali accent can have a
very "shus'ta" pronunciation. If so, I beg to differ.
In my view, an "accent" covers the whole gamut of one's voca-
bulary --- it is not limited to just a word or two. The
Yorkshire accent of Geoff Boycott can be seen (or rather
heard) in his entire commentary, not just in a word or two.
I have always made a clear distinction between "an average
Delhi-wallah" and yourself. I have lived in Bombay for quite
a while. But, from a linguistic angle, would anyone call me
a Bombayite ? Strangely, whenever I shopped in Bombay's
Bhindi Bazaar and Mohammed Ali Road areas, the shopkeepers were
wont to ask me : "Saheb, aap Pakistan se aaye haiN ?".
Afzal
Naseer
On Jun 12, 7:58 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Strangely, whenever I shopped in Bombay's
> Bhindi Bazaar and Mohammed Ali Road areas, the shopkeepers were
> wont to ask me : "Saheb, aap Pakistan se aaye haiN ?".
to aap unheN kyaa javaab dete the? kyaa aap kaa lab-o-lahjah mujh
jaise Pakistan vaaloN se miltaa-jultaa hai?:)
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
Yeh us zamaane ki bat hai jab aap bahut chhoTe hoNge.
Aur maiN aap se qata'an naa~waaqif tha. Aur abhi bhi
sirf aap ke tehreeri lab-o-lehja hi jaan paaya hooN !
Afzal
UVR
On Jun 12, 6:59 am, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 10, 5:36 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > the sound of the 'qH', when "correctly" pronounced, is slightly
> > different from that of the "KH" (as in Khushboo or Khudaa)
>
> Could you please elaborate on the Hayerabadi "q" which you have
> transcribed as "qH".
>
jaisa k Afzal saahib ne farmaayaa, Hyderabadi "logaaN" apne harf-e-
qaaf ko ek qism kaa "aspirated consonant" maante haiN. albatta is ki
aawaaz harf Khe ki aawaaz se judaa-judaa hoti hai. LIKH kar is aawaaz
ko bayaan karnaa shaayad saheeh ma'anoN meN mumkin na ho, magar haaN,
"qH" se bhi qareeb tar transcription is aawaaz ki "qKh" ho. ya'ani,
begin with the mouth poised to enunciate the ('normal') qaaf, but
terminate with the Khe sound. I daresay this is why it is likened to
the sound of the (Hyderabadi) Khe. However, their "Khe" is pretty
much like the regular 'Khe.' Listen, for example, to the actor
Mahmood say "KhayaaloN meN ... KhayaaloN meN..." in the prelude to the
Mohd. Rafi song "hameN kaale haeeN to kyaa huwaa dilwaale haeN"
> > Speaking of "native" accents, there is at least one from UP that
> > sports a Re (peR, ghaRaa) which is best described as "more retroflex
> > than retroflex itself!" When these people say "laRkaa" or "paRhnaa",
> > it's as if their tongues literally STRIKE their palate! But should
> > this one peculiarity disqualify their speech from deserving the
> > impeccability 'tamGha'?
>
> What part of UP do these sharp-Re-tongued speakers come from?
>
I couldn't say for sure. IIRC, the friend who used this
pronunciation, his family hailed from somewhere on the Delhi-Calcutta
line between Agra and Lucknow. Unfortunately, this is a greater
distance than Dublin to Galway, the entire diameter of Ireland.
Sorry!
-UVR.
Naseer
sab se pahle ek Ghalatii kaa izaalah! merii bahin Hindustaan kii haiN
lekin Amriikah meN rihaa'ish-paziir haiN. un ke mutaabiq...
"wahaaN {ALUP} ki behas apni jagah--such baat to ye hai, ke hamarey
Lakhnau kA hii Urdu lab-o-lahjah saheeh hai--all others are runner
ups.
Hamarey Lakhnau ki chiRiyaaN tak ek khaas andaaz se boltii hain."
lagtaa hai kih maziid baHs be-kaar hai!:)
sunaa aap ne UVR Sahib? Delhi kii chiRiyaaN kaise chahchahaatii haiN?
KHair-anadesh,
Naseer
Naseer
janaab-i-UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
jii chaahtaa hai kih is lambii-chauRii baHs kaa KHulaasah pesh karuuN
lekin....sach puuchiye to in dinoN ek uljhan kii vajh se kuchh
masruufiyat baRh gaii hai awr isii ke baa'is dimaaGh itnaa Haazir
nahiiN jitnaa kih use honaa chaahiye. is liye peshgii ma'zirat.
to aap farmaa rahe haiN kih Hyderabadi "KHe" or duusre "logaaN" kii
KHe meN kuchh farq nahiiN. sirf baat itnii sii hai kih hamaaraa"qaaf"
un kaa "qKHaaf" hai! maiN Thiik samjhaa? awr maiN yahii samjhe baiThaa
thaa kih hamaaraa har qaaf un kii KHe hotii hai!
kaRaake-daar Re bolne vaaloN ke silsile meN agar kuchh taHqiiq ho
saktii hai to zaruur bataaiye gaa.
iHsaan-mand,
Naseer
B.G.M.
to ye hai, ke hamarey
> Lakhnau kA hii Urdu lab-o-lahjah saheeh hai--all others are runner
> ups.
> Hamarey Lakhnau ki chiRiyaaN tak ek khaas andaaz se boltii hain."
> lagtaa hai kih maziid baHs be-kaar hai!:)
>
> sunaa aap ne UVR Sahib? Delhi kii chiRiyaaN kaise chahchahaatii haiN?
>
> KHair-anadesh,
> Naseer
Ye Lakhnauu ki sar-zamiiN
Ye Lakhnauu ki sar-zamiiN
ye rang-ruup kaa chaman
ye husn-o-ishq ka watan
yehi tau wo maqaam hai
jahaa.n Avadh ki shaam hai
jawaaN jawaaN, hasiiN, hasiiN, ye Lakhnauu ki sar-zamiiN
shabaab-o-she`r ka ye ghar <<==========
ye ahl-e-ilm kaa nagar
hai manzilo.n ki goad me.n
yahaa.n har-eik rah-guzar
yeh shehr laala-zaar hai
yahaa.n dilo.n me.n pyaar hai
jidhar nazar uThaa_iiye
bahaar hi bahaar hai
kalii kalii hai naazniiN, ye Lakhnauu ki sar-zamiiN
yahaa.n ki sab rawaayate.n <<==============
adab ki shaahkaar hai
ameer ahl-e-dil yahaa.n
Ghareeb jaaN-nisaar hai
har-eik shaakh par yahaa.n
hai bulbulo.n ke chah-chahe
galii galii me.n zindagii
qadam qadam pe kah-kahe
har-ik nazaaraa dil-nashiiN, ye Lakhnauu ki sar-zamiiN
yahaa.n ke dost baa-wafaa
muhabbato.n se aashnaa
kisii ke ho gaye agar
rahe usii ke umr-bhar
nibhaa_ii apni aan bhi
baRhaa_ii dil ki shaan bhi
hai.n aise mehrbaan bhi
kaho tau, de de.n, jaan bhi
jo dostii ka ho yaqeeN, ye Lakhnauu ki sar-zamiiN
~Shakeel Badayuni (1960 )
==============================================================
Afzal A. Khan
Manejwala Saheb,
I think there is one typo in this beautiful piece of poetry.
Should it not be "qah'qahe" ? JahaaN baat Urdu ke lab-o-
lehje ki ho rahi ho aur KHaas taur par Lakhnaoo ka zikr ho
raha ho, wahaaN yeh typo bhi khal'ta hai !!
Having said that, I think this poem is just the way I des-
cribed it --- a beautiful piece of poetry. It was written
by Shakeel for the film "Chaudhavin Ka Chaand" that was
released in 1960. The film is set in a much earlier era.
Please pardon me for opining that the world of this movie
is a world of make-believe. Woh "bahaar hi bahaar hai" ke
zamaane kab ke lad chuke.
You should undertake a journey to Lakhnaoo these days and
see the squalor and decay that has set in there. The Gomti
river has now turned into a smelly, rancid naalah.
Aap ne aur hum ne "Shehr~Ashob" to paRhe haiN, lekin ab
zaroori hai ke koi dil~jala shaa'ir Lakhnaoo ke muta'alliq
bhi ek aisi hi nazm likhe, jise paRhe ne ke b'ad hum yeh
keh uTheN :
Na suna jaayega hum se yeh fasaana hargiz
Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
Aap ki behin ka kehna sar~aaNkhoN par..........
I can only say that I am not a part of this game of one-upmanship.
How can the people belonging to the three (or perhaps more)
geographical regions be held responsible or liable for the ethnic
influences that characterize their speech ?
Har 'ilaaqa jo Urdu ki pazeeraii karta hai aur har woh shaKHs jo
Urdu ki qadr karta hai. mere liye qaabil-e-ehtiraam hai.
Afzal
Raj Kumar
--------
> Har 'ilaaqa jo Urdu ki pazeeraii karta hai aur har woh shaKHs jo
> Urdu ki qadr karta hai. mere liye qaabil-e-ehtiraam hai.
Regardless of anyone's "lab-o-laihja", I regard the above statement of
Afzal saahib as the "last word" on this unwieldy discussion which
seems to be leading us to I don't know where!
Raj Kumar
UVR
Naseer saahib,
maiN Dilliwaala to yeh dekh kar angusht-ba-dandaaN hooN k in pyaare
Lakhnauu waaloN ne Khud ko AAJ TAK is Khushfahmi kaa shikaar kar
rakhaa hai!
Khair mare ghoRe ko koRe lagaane se faa'idaa?
-UVR.
Naseer
mere KHayaal meN koii bhii aisaa shaKHs nahiiN ho gaa jise janaab-i-
Afzal Sahib kii is baat se koii iKHtilaaf ho. haaN, aap ke farmaan ke
aaKHirii Hisse kii baat alag hai. janaab-i-vaalaa, agar aap is
kaarvaaN meN shariik hii nahiiN haiN to is ke ruKH awr musaafat par
aap kaise qaabuu paa sakeN ge? yaqiin-an qaafile meN mil kar hii aisaa
kiyaa jaa saktaa hai, kyaa KHayaal hai aap kaa?
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Naseer
janaab-i-UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
yaqiin-an yih sab kuchh ham kaamil sanjiidagii se nahiiN kah rahe.
Dihlii vaale hoN, Lakhnau vaale hoN, Panjaab vaale hoN, Bangaal vaale
hoN, jahaaN ke bhii hoN, sab log apnii apnii bol-chaal ko a'laa-o-
afzal gardaante haiN, usii tarH jaise 'Allamah Iqbal apne vatan ke
baare meN farmaa gae haiN "saare jahaaN se achchhaa HindustaaN
hamaaraa". kyaa Jaapaan vaale is se ittifaaq kareN ge? hargiz nahiiN.
lekin Iqbal awr saare Hindustaan vaaloN ko aisii baat kahne kaa puuraa
puuraa Haq hai.awr agar Lakhnau vaale kaheN "saare Hindustaan meN
achchhaa lab-o-lahjah hamaaraa" to koii baat nahiiN.
ittifaaq-o-iKHtilaaf ek taraf, 'umuum-an yahii sunte aae haiN kih Urdu
ke tamaam lahjoN meN Lakhnau vaaloN kaa lahjah qaabil-i-rashk hai awr
yahii lahjah shaayad mi'yaarii samjhaa jaataa hai. merii apnii raae,
jise maiN pahle bhii 'arz kar chukaa huuN, yih hai kih ham sab ke
lahjoN se mil kar hii yih guunaaguunii paidaa hotii hai.
"yih Lakhnau kii sar-zamiin" ko Shakeel Badaayuunii ne likhaa hai,
lekin is ko ek Panjaab-vaale kii shiiriiN aavaaz ne jaaN baKHshii hai.
qissah muKHtasar, in sab lahjoN ke imtizaaj se paidaa hu'e haiN ham!:)
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Raj Kumar
> > > Har 'ilaaqa jo Urdu ki pazeeraii karta hai aur har woh shaKHs jo
> > > Urdu ki qadr karta hai. mere liye qaabil-e-ehtiraam hai.
>
> > Regardless of anyone's "lab-o-laihja", I regard the above statement of
> > Afzal saahib as the "last word" on this unwieldy discussion which
> > seems to be leading us to I don't know where!
>
> mere KHayaal meN koii bhii aisaa shaKHs nahiiN ho gaa jise janaab-i-
> Afzal Sahib kii is baat se koii iKHtilaaf ho. haaN, aap ke farmaan ke
> aaKHirii Hisse kii baat alag hai. janaab-i-vaalaa, agar aap is
> kaarvaaN meN shariik hii nahiiN haiN to is ke ruKH awr musaafat par
> aap kaise qaabuu paa sakeN ge? yaqiin-an qaafile meN mil kar hii aisaa
> kiyaa jaa saktaa hai, kyaa KHayaal hai aap kaa?
Khayaal nek hai, saahib; mazeed arz hai k
shaadii ki aNjuman ho k maatam ki bazm ho
shaamil haiN ik adaa-e-kinaaraa-kashii se ham! :)
R.K.
UVR
dekhiye naa, aap ne meri baat meN posheeda lighthearted humor ko (phir
aik baar) ignore kar diyaa! Khair ... aap ko kyooN lagaa k maiN *us*
Khushfahmi ki baat kar rahaa thaa jo Lakhnauu waaloN ne apne diloN meN
*Urdu* ki nisbat paal rakhi hai?
lekin _chiRiyoN_ tak baat naheeN jaani chaahiye!
lekin aap ne sanjeedagi kaa zikr kiyaa hai to sanjeedagi se ek baat
kahtaa hooN, aur woh yeh k ----- maiN kisi bhi mu'aamale meN kisi bhi
qism ki "generalization" ke Khilaaf hooN. mas`lan: kisi shaKhs ke
mahz ek Khaas juGhraafiyaa'ii yaa zabaani halqe ko "belong" karne bhar
ki wajh se us ki Urdu ko "behtar" yaa "badtar" qaraar denaa meri tab'a
ko tasleem naheeN. I feel rather strongly about this because I have
been on the receiving end of the 'discrimination' that stems from
these kinds of generalizations throughout my life, and I never shy
away from speaking up against it.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
I am sure about your sympathy for the cause of Indian Dalits who
have been at the receiving end of things for centuries.
Afzal
UVR
Why? Is their Urdu painted as being "generally" worse than that of
others?
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
Urdu is an infant, as compared to the Dalits who have been around
for eons. Their lot has been, generally and specially, much much
worse than that of others for ages. If you don't have any sympathy
for them it is another matter.
Afzal
UVR
Afzal saahib,
I'm sorry to have to specifically point out that my sympathy (or
yours) for Dalits and/or what their lot has been experiencing and for
how long are completely outside the charter of ALUP. This is why I
tried to explore an Urdu angle to your comments, but it looks like
there is verily none. If there's a specific part of the "Dalit issue"
you are raising that bears on Urdu, we can talk about it. Otherwise,
we should go back to the main topic of discussion (on accented speech,
etc).
-UVR.
Naseer
I hope some good has come out of these discussions which have been
fairly light-hearted in nature. I know janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib has
commented at the lack of direction and "unwieldiness"of the
conversations but, it is not unnatural to go off-topic now and again.
For me, to round off as it were, I would like our learned participants
to come up with, as far as they are able, as many *distinct*
"educated" Urdu accents as possible and to include with them their
distinguishing features. Someone like me, who is not familiar with the
intricacies of these speech patterns, does not really know a Dehlavii
accent from a Lakhnavii one; a Bhopali from an Indori one and so on.
Lakhnavii accent may be one of many from the UP region. So, janaab-i-
Afzal Sahib, janaab-i-UVR Sahib and any other Sahib/ah who wishes to
join in, please let us have your thoughts on this topic. I only have
mother-tongue Urdu accents in mind, at least for the time being.
iHsaan-mand,
Naseer
Naseer
go is laRii ke darvaaze band ho gae haiN lekin ek baar Afzal Sahib ne
Punjabi lahje kii farmaa'ish kii thii. jo Youtube kaa link pesh kiyaa
jaa rahaa hai, is meN Khalid Masood, ek 'ajiib qism kii Urdu apne
Panjabi lahje meN sunaa rahe haiN.Urdu samajhne vaale shaayad is se
itne ziyaadah lutf-andoz nah hoN, magar Punjabi log zaruur ise pasand
kareN ge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CrmvHcNH90
KHair-andesh,
Naseer