aaj ka she'r ( #2)

[Zoya]

Friends,

I had started "aaj ka she'r" thread almost a year ago. It has been hugely popular, with over 800 posts to date. Over time, this thread evolved into sort of a 'town square', a free flowing forum where members posted and discussed asha'ar, and all things related. A fun thread to post in, or maybe just lurk in!

Due to its length, "aaj ka she'r" is now rather slow to load. So, it's time to start Chapter 2. In case you are new to this group, here is a link to the original thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!topic/alt.language.urdu.poetry/E_tQANEKy1I%5B826-850%5D

It has been a lot of fun for me to participate in "aaj ka she'r" thread. I am grateful to all the group members for making it a tremendous success and turning it into a series.

At our friend Shoaib sahib's suggestion, let me start the new Chapter with a she'r by one of the most loved members of Alup, an amazing poet and generous expert, a pillar of this group, Raj Kumar Qais sahib.

dil meiN rakhte ho Qais ki ghazaleN
gungunaayo to koi baat bane!

On to Chapter 2! Merry posting!! :-)

________Zoya

[Raj Kumar]

________________________

***
na jhaaNko Qais ke dil meN, na jhaaNko
vahaaN ko'ii chhupaa ho, kaun jaane!

R K Qais***

[B.G. M.]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:16:43 PM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 4:28:36 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > Friends,
> >

“ jhaaNk kar dil meN zaraa yeh to bataa deeje Huzuur!
meri qismat kaa sitaara kaun si manzil meN hai!”

~Sarwar Alam Raz “Sarwar”
=======================

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 7:16:43 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> na jhaaNko Qais ke dil meN, na jhaaNko
> vahaaN ko'ii chhupaa ho, kaun jaane!
>
> R K Qais***

Qais sahib, suniye:

kis ne dastak di yeh dil par, kaun hai?
aap to andar haiN, baahar kaun hai?! :-)

[Raj Kumar]

__________

kyuuN aa ke mire dil pe ko'ii deta hai dastak
yaaN ko'ii nahiiN, ko'ii nahiiN, ko'ii nahiiN hai!
[Qais]

[B.G. M.]

“dastak ki ummeed lagaaye kab tak “Qaisar” jeete ham
kal kaa wa’adah karne waale milne aaye barsoN b’aad!”
~ Qaisar-ul-jaaferi
============================================

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 7:53:33 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> kyuuN aa ke mire dil pe ko'ii deta hai dastak
> yaaN ko'ii nahiiN, ko'ii nahiiN, ko'ii nahiiN hai!
> [Qais]

na jaane kab tire dil par nayi sii dastak ho
makaan khaali huaa hai to koii aaye gaa!

[Zoya]

> “dastak ki ummeed lagaaye kab tak “Qaisar” jeete ham
> kal kaa wa’adah karne waale milne aaye barsoN b’aad!”

'ajab thaa us kii dildaari kaa andaaz
voh barsoN ba'ad jab mujh se milaa hai
bhalaa maiN puuChhtaa us se to kaise
mata'-e-jaaN! tumhaaraa naam kyaa hai?! :)

[Mohit]

pyar ki gehri fufkaroN se, saara badan akaash hua hai,
doodh pilana tan daswana, hai dastoor purana baba - Bashir Badr

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 10:02:17 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> pyar ki gehri fufkaroN se, saara badan akaash hua hai,
> doodh pilana tan daswana, hai dastoor purana baba - Bashir Badr

voh Khaar Khaar hai shaaKh-e-gulaab kii maaniNd
maiN zaKhm zaKhm huuN phir bhii gale lagaauuN use

Ahmad Faraz

[Mohit]

maiN bhi zakhm-zakhm, mera dil bhi zaar-zaar,
mujh par bhi dostoN ki nawazish bahut hui - ( unknown )

I am not sure if the sher is right, read it so long ago that i feebly remember it...

[Zoya]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 1:44:46 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> maiN bhi zakhm-zakhm, mera dil bhi zaar-zaar,
> mujh par bhi dostoN ki nawazish bahut hui - ( unknown )
>
> I am not sure if the sher is right, read it so long ago that i feebly remember it...
>

Nice. mera -> miraa

is par to besaaKhta yahii Khayaal aataa hai:

dil abhii purii tarah TuuTaa nahiiN
dostoN kii meharbaanii chaahiye!

[Raj Kumar]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:25:45 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 1:44:46 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:

> > maiN bhi zakhm-zakhm, mera dil bhi zaar-zaar,
> > mujh par bhi dostoN ki nawazish bahut hui - ( unknown )
> >
> > I am not sure if the sher is right, read it so long ago that i feebly remember it...
> >
>
> Nice. mera -> miraa
>

***ZS, is this the only problem with the first misr'a of this she'r?***

[Raj Kumar]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:02:17 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:

> pyar ki gehri fufkaroN se, saara badan akaash hua hai,
> doodh pilana tan daswana, hai dastoor purana baba - Bashir Badr

***Mohit sahib, is she'r ke ma'ani kyaa haiN?
Especially, what is "fufkaroN" and what is "daswana"?

Thanks in advance!

Raj Kumar***

[Zoya]

RK sahib,

I am sure Mohit sahib will get back to you, meantime here is my non-dictionary understanding of these words:

fufkaar: kind of hissing sound a snake makes?
Dasvaanaa: getting (intentionally) bitten by a snake

And now my take on it:

I took 'badan aakaash hua hai' as the body turning blue after being poisoned.

Then I kind of put all this together, the tradition of feeding 'pyaar' like a snake, then getting poisoned by it and suffering, the body turning blue. Not fun!!

That is why I responded to it with Faraz's "Khaar-Khaar zaKhm-zaKhm" she'r, still sounds painful but much less toxic. :)

_______Zoya

[Zoya]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 2:31:33 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> >
> > Nice. mera -> miraa
> >
> ***ZS, is this the only problem with the first misr'a of this she'r?***

Nope. But one thing at a time, treading lightly. I am trying to recruit Mohit in our taqtii'a school. :-)

[Raj Kumar]

***ZS, aap ne is na'ii laRii ka aaGhaaz kuchh yuuN kiyaa hai:

"dil meiN rakhte ho Qais ki ghazaleN
gungunaayo to koi baat bane"!

aap zaraa is she'r ko bhi Theek-Thaak kar deN to maiN bhi aap ke taqtii'a school meN bharti ho jaauuN ga! :-)

R.K.***

[Zoya]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:26:56 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> ZS, aap ne is na'ii laRii ka aaGhaaz kuchh yuuN kiyaa hai:
>
> "dil meiN rakhte ho Qais ki ghazaleN
> gungunaayo to koi baat bane"!
>
> aap zaraa is she'r ko bhi Theek-Thaak kar deN to maiN bhi aap ke taqtii'a school meN bharti ho jaauuN ga! :-)
>
> R.K.

I knew this was coming, and was surprised it took almost 24 hours. :-)

This one is on you Prof RK, I already covered my tracks.

I copied it exactly as you originally posted it in Alup. ab aap Khud ise Thhiik Thhaak kiijiye aur ham shagirdoN ko samjhaaiye k kya 'problems' haiN aur kya 'solutions' haiN. :-)))

Here is a link to your original post:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/to$20koii$20baat$20bane$20Qais%7Csort:date/alt.language.urdu.poetry/FJZ_jeRZCn4/XqkV5oTrsXMJ

The *star* pupil in Qais School of taqtii'a,

______Zoya :-)

[B.G. M.]

“maiN bhii huuN zaKhm-zaKhm, mira dil bhii taar-taar
mujh par bhi dostoN ki navaazish bahot hu’ii”
( is this right, Professor saahab?)
=====================================

[Raj Kumar]

***Essentially correct, BG sahib.

Just two minor points ----- "mira" should be "miraa" and the second "bhii" should be "bhi".***

[Mohit]

thanks sir for the correcting the sher... I read it long ago... maybe sometime in school or college days, bad I didn't write them anywhere... also I have noticed many 'sher' change when they are written in devnagri, thanks for lovely tuitions I get here in ALUP


Zoya mam, yes, that's the essence of the sher... 'even though i am bitten by the toxic love and my body is as blue as sky, feeding the snake ( I wonder of Bashir sahab indicated towards the the satanic Serpent of Adam and Eve story ) and getting bitten is almost a tradition for me... this is how I see the sher...

now today's sher which is classic Nida Fazli

raste mein wo mila tha, main bach kar guzar gaya,
uski phati kameez mire sath ho gayi...

(( Rekhta says Kamees and I read Kameez in the Nida's book in devnagri ))

[Naseer]

Mohit SaaHib, aadaab.

On Friday, 4 September 2020 04:18:50 UTC+1, Mohit wrote:
> thanks sir for the correcting the sher... I read it long ago... maybe sometime in school or college days, bad I didn't write them anywhere... also I have noticed many 'sher' change when they are written in devnagri, thanks for lovely tuitions I get here in ALUP

To be absolutely fair, I don't believe on this occasion you can blame the Devanagri script in any way. I shall leave it to Raj Kumar SaaHib to inform the audience of the true wording of the shi3r. One thing is for certain though. In Devanagri, a meek and humble shi3r/shi'r شعر (couplet) becomes a roaring, vicious sher شیر (lion). So, please give credit where it's due:-) Not only does the shi3r take a new life of its own, its creator the shaa3ir/shaa'ir also goes through a mega-transformation..shaayar!:-)

> Zoya mam, yes, that's the essence of the sher... 'even though i am bitten by the toxic love and my body is as blue as sky, feeding the snake ( I wonder of Bashir sahab indicated towards the the satanic Serpent of Adam and Eve story ) and getting bitten is almost a tradition for me... this is how I see the sher...

I don't remember the serpent biting Adam or Eve in the Biblical/Qur'anic story when they were blissfully residing in the Garden of Eden. I suspect Bashir Badr has in mind those "naags" (and "naagins", not being sexist) that are closer to home than some place up in the sky or far away!

> now today's sher which is classic Nida Fazli
>
> raste mein wo mila tha, main bach kar guzar gaya,
> uski phati kameez mire sath ho gayi...
>
> (( Rekhta says Kamees and I read Kameez in the Nida's book in devnagri ))
>

The word in Urdu is "qamiis" and that is how it is shown on the Rekhta site. In Devanagri it is shown as क़मीस. There is no doubt that it is routinely pronounced as qamiiz/kamiiz (or even kamiij by some) but be that as it may, the poet has written the word as qamiis.

PS Do you intentionally not show the nasals (mein/main) and retroflexes (phati) or are these typos?

Naseer

[nagesh]

Greetings, all. I had a few minutes and saw this interesting discussion. The interpretation of the she'r reminded me of a well-known story regarding Shiva. He swallowed the halaahal poison created when the devas and asuras used a snake (nag, as in nagesh) to churn the ocean and produce amrit. Subsequently, his throat turned blue. One of his names is nilakaNthan. I have no idea whether Bashir Sahib had this episode in mind, but the discussion of the she'r reminded me of it.
Regards,
Nagesh

[Zoya]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 10:18:50 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
>
> Zoya mam, yes, that's the essence of the sher... 'even though i am bitten by the toxic love and my body is as blue as sky, feeding the snake ( I wonder of Bashir sahab indicated towards the the satanic Serpent of Adam and Eve story ) and getting bitten is almost a tradition for me... this is how I see the sher...

Mohit, maybe the poet's reference is to the Satanic snakes, maybe not. In my boo,k any sh'er that makes you pause and think, and then comes back to haunt you is great at some level. This particular she'r has that quality, a bit dark, but it definitely packs a punch.

>
> now today's sher which is classic Nida Fazli
>
> raste mein wo mila tha, main bach kar guzar gaya,
> uski phati kameez mire sath ho gayi...
>
> (( Rekhta says Kamees and I read Kameez in the Nida's book in devnagri ))

>

We've had detailed qamiis/qamiiz discussions in Alup more than once. Without getting trapped in that again, let me just say that the pure form is indeed 'qamiis', but it is generally accepted as qamiiz in daily 'bol chaal', and mostly does sound like 'kamiiz', at least in North India.

I like to stay with 'qamiiz'. Just a personal preference.

Anyway, here is one of my favorite asha'ar on this, I am sure you will love it too:

bikhar gayaa hai badan phir bhi voh nahiiN TuuTe
baTan qamiiz pe ab tak tire lagaaye hue

You may want to note it down, this one is a keeper. :)

______Zoya

[Zoya]

> > On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 5:16:34 PM UTC-5, stanvir wrote:

> Here is one for you:
>
> Shahid kabhi voh tum ko bhi dekhay ga jhaaNk kar
> us ki gali meiN roze tamasha kiya karo
>
> شاہد کبھی وہ تم کو بھی دیکھے گا جھانک کر
> اس کی گلی میں روز تماشہ کیا کرو

This is the very last she'r Shoaib sahib had posted in the original 'aaj ka she'r' thread before we wrapped it up.

After reading this, two asha'ar had immediately come to my mind, and have stayed with me, so I decided to export this post here.

One of the asha'ar is by my friend Amjad Islam Amjad sahib, I had heard it from him over the phone once:

ghair se tum ko bahut rabt hai maanaa lekin
yeh tamaashaa to mire ba'ad bhi ho saktaa hai!

And the second one is even more fun, on hold for now, for later use! :-)

______Zoya

[B.G. M.]

“maiN aaj apne ghar se nikalne nah paa’uuNgaa
Bas, ik kamees thii jo miraa bhaa’ii le gayaa!”
~Raahat Indori
======================================

[Naseer]

On Friday, 4 September 2020 18:49:41 UTC+1, B.G. M. wrote:

> “maiN aaj apne ghar se nikalne nah paa’uuNgaa
> Bas, ik kamees thii jo miraa bhaa’ii le gayaa!”
> ~Raahat Indori
> ======================================

BGM SaaHib, the poet wrote "qamiis". I think you would agree one should quote accurately. I am sure ustaad-i-muHtaram will impress upon one and all the importance of correct transcription of Urdu words, especially when ash3aar from well known poets are being quoted.

Naseer

[Raj Kumar]

---------------

***ise kahte haiN --- "makkhii par makhhii maarnaa" yaa
"gaRay murday ukhaaRnaa"! LOL

aek 20 baras puraani taHreer, jab-k transliteration abhi duudh-peeti bachchii thi. tab se le kar ab tak kitne puloN ke neeche se kitna paani bah chukaa hai --- including the posting of a 7-article series on the art of transliteration written by your favorite non-Ludhianvi poet which, along with a few others, set the stage for the present-day scheme of transliteration which most of us use!

goyaa, zamaana kaheeN ka kaheeN jaa rahaa aur aap haiN k is do dehaa'ii puraane system ko daur-maazii se nikaal kar daur-e-Haazir meN na laa sakeeN. Devi ji, yeh kaam us Ghazal ke Khaaliq ka nahiiN tha, bal-k us taHreer ko ichchii-bichchii naql karne vaale ka tha. samjheeN naa? :-)

aur chuuN-k aap ne yeh "Haseen Harakat" mujhe phaNsaane ke liye kii hai, isi liye to yeh muhaavara banaa hai:

(Regardless of gender) "billii sheeNh paRhaayaa, muR billii khaan aayaa"! :-)

yaa yeh bhi kah sakte haiN:

"kuRiyaaN hamaare des ki chaalaak ho ga'iiN"! :-)

aek baat aur:

apne aap ko "star pupil" kahna "apne muNh miyaaN miTThuu" ban_ne vaali baat hai --- and the same goes with flaunting one's "double-major" degree --- especially since it was obtained from the "Trump University"! ROTFL

baaqii baateN aglii baar
merii jeet, tumhaarii haar

B/W, it is "tu mhaa rii", not "tum haarii". LOL

R.K.***

[Raj Kumar]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:02:17 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:

> pyar ki gehri fufkaroN se, saara badan akaash hua hai,
> doodh pilana tan daswana, hai dastoor purana baba - Bashir Badr

On this, RK asked:

***Mohit sahib, is she'r ke ma'ani kyaa haiN?

Especially, what is "fufkaroN" and what is "daswana"? ***,

to which Zoya responded:

RK sahib,

I am sure Mohit sahib will get back to you, meantime here is my non-dictionary understanding of these words:

fufkaar: kind of hissing sound a snake makes?
Dasvaanaa: getting (intentionally) bitten by a snake

And now my take on it:

I took 'badan aakaash hua hai' as the body turning blue after being poisoned.
Then I kind of put all this together, the tradition of feeding 'pyaar' like a snake, then getting poisoned by it and suffering, the body turning blue. Not fun!!

---------------

RK now asks:

***
(i) Zoya sahiba, what do you mean by “non-dictionary understanding”? Does it mean the same as “aTkal-pachchuu”, which also means “chall gayaa te teer, na'iiN te tukka”? :-)

meri raaye ke mutaabiq, “fufkaar” Hindi ka shabd to ho nahiiN sakta kyuuN-k Hindi bhaashaa meN ‘fe’ ki aavaaz hi nahiiN hai. haaN, Faarsi ka ho sakta hai magar hameN to kahiiN nahiiN milaa. ain mumkin hai k saHeeH lafz “phunkaar” ho, jis ka matlab vuhi hai jo aap ne liyaa hai --- ya’ani, saaNp ke phuuNk maarne ka amal.

In any case, your paraphrase of the she’r is quite sound!

(ii) Mohit sahib, please double-check this term; it could very well be “gahri phunkaareN”!

aur, mu’aaf keejiye, agar aap ne “daswana” ki bajaaye “Daswaanaa” likkha hota to hameN itni koft na hoti. Please note the difference between “D” and “d” --- also between “aa” and “a”.

R.K.***

[Mohit]

> To be absolutely fair, I don't believe on this occasion you can blame the Devanagri script in any way. I shall leave it to Raj Kumar SaaHib to inform the audience of the true wording of the shi3r. One thing is for certain though. In Devanagri, a meek and humble shi3r/shi'r شعر (couplet) becomes a roaring, vicious sher شیر (lion). So, please give credit where it's due:-) Not only does the shi3r take a new life of its own, its creator the shaa3ir/shaa'ir also goes through a mega-transformation..shaayar!:-)

sir thoda sa blame kar sakta hoon... maslan bashir badr ka sher Rajpal Sons ki book mein aise chhapa hai

kaagazi zuesheer laaye hain,
apna tesha yahi qalam baba

mera andaza hai ki sher yuN hona chahiye



kagazi 'zuu-e-sheer' laaye hain,
apna tesha yahi qalam baba

> The word in Urdu is "qamiis" and that is how it is shown on the Rekhta site. In Devanagri it is shown as क़मीस. There is no doubt that it is routinely pronounced as qamiiz/kamiiz (or even kamiij by some) but be that as it may, the poet has written the word as qamiis.
>

again the Sahitya Academy winner book Safar mein dhoop to hogi in devnagri had the word Kameez I believe, since the book was borrowed by someone and was never returned so I can't cross check from the book, the Rekhta also writes qamiis but again Rekhta also carries errors for example Nida Fazli's ghazal

Duniya jise kehte haiN, bachche ka khilauna hai
mil jaaye to mitti hai, kho jaaye to sona hai

is written as

dunia jise kehte hain 'jaadu' ka khilauna hai,
mil jaaye to mitti hai, kho jaaye to sona hai

since Jagjit ji also sung the 'Jaadu ' sher, the book carried Bachche ka Khilauna

> PS Do you intentionally not show the nasals (mein/main) and retroflexes (phati) or are these typos?
>
> Naseer

sir these must be typos...

[Naseer]

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab

On Saturday, 5 September 2020 06:25:56 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> meri raaye ke mutaabiq, “fufkaar” Hindi ka shabd to ho nahiiN sakta kyuuN-k Hindi bhaashaa meN ‘fe’ ki aavaaz hi nahiiN hai. haaN, Faarsi ka ho sakta hai magar hameN to kahiiN nahiiN milaa. ain mumkin hai k saHeeH lafz “phunkaar” ho, jis ka matlab vuhi hai jo aap ne liyaa hai --- ya’ani, saaNp ke phuuNk maarne ka amal.
>
> In any case, your paraphrase of the she’r is quite sound!

Yes, you are absolutely right that there is no "f" sound in Hindi but for some strange reason, some if not many Hindi speakers convert the "ph" words to "f" ones. For example, all these words would be pronounced by "f".

phaaNsii, pheNknaa, phaaTak, phal, phuul, phaaNk, phaaNsnaa, phaphuuNdii, phiikaa, phaa'oRaa (shovel), phaTnaa, phurtii, phaRaknaa, phaRphaRaanaa, phisalnaa, phuslaanaa, phalii, phulvaaRii, pherii-vaalaa, phere, phaagun, phephRaa, phan (of a snake)etc.

I only found about this phenomenon when I was interacting with Hindi speakers in another forum. I don't know whether this is "over correction" or English influence. One of my Sikh friends pronounces "phalii" as "falii"! I know Punjabis pronounce "phir" as "fer" but I was somewhat surprised at hearing his pronunciation.

> (ii) Mohit sahib, please double-check this term; it could very well be “gahri phunkaareN”!

The shi3r in question is:

pyaar kii gahrii phunkaaroN sesaaraa badan aakaash hu'aa hai
duudh pilaanaa, tan Dasvaanaa, hai dastuur puraanaa, baabaa

Naseer

[Naseer]

Mohit SaaHib, aadaab.

Thank you for your reply. I do accept "Rekhta" site does contain many errors and one must not always think of it as gospel! You are also correct in saying that Rekhta site has given an incorrect citation of Nida Faazli's shi3r having "jaaduu" instead of "bachche".

The shi3r you have quoted in fact is..

kaaGhazii juu-i-shiir laate haiN
apnaa teshah yahii qalam baabaa


You will probably know of ShiiriiN-Farhaad love story and this shi3r hearkens back to that episode.

juu-i-shiir = a stream of milk

teshah = adze

Naseer

[Mohit]

> Mohit SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> Thank you for your reply. I do accept "Rekhta" site does contain many errors and one must not always think of it as gospel! You are also correct in saying that Rekhta site has given an incorrect citation of Nida Faazli's shi3r having "jaaduu" instead of "bachche".
>
> The shi3r you have quoted in fact is..
>
> kaaGhazii juu-i-shiir laate haiN
> apnaa teshah yahii qalam baabaa
>
>
> You will probably know of ShiiriiN-Farhaad love story and this shi3r hearkens back to that episode.
>
> juu-i-shiir = a stream of milk
>
> teshah = adze
>
> Naseer

yes sir, also was reading another version of Bashir Badr's book Ujaale Apni YaadoN ke, which writes this sher as ( in devnagrii )


kaagHazi juuyesheer laaye haiN

apna tesha yahi qalam baba

https://www.bashirbadr.com/ebooks/ujaale-apani-yaadon-ke
( Page no. 17 )

[Naseer]

On Saturday, 5 September 2020 08:53:41 UTC+1, Mohit wrote:

> yes sir, also was reading another version of Bashir Badr's book Ujaale Apni YaadoN ke, which writes this sher as ( in devnagrii )
>
>
> kaagHazi juuyesheer laaye haiN
> apna tesha yahi qalam baba
>
> https://www.bashirbadr.com/ebooks/ujaale-apani-yaadon-ke
> ( Page no. 17 )

No need for Sir please. I would appreciate it very much.

Well, a number of Persian words which end in long vowels "aa" and "uu" tend to have the extra "y" sometimes and "juu" is one such word. That's the reason when the suffix "baar" is added to it, we see the final result as "juuybaar" (one meaning ... a place abounding in streams), written as جوئبار in the subcontinent and جویبار in Iran.

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 5:48:11 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***ise kahte haiN --- "makkhii par makhhii maarnaa" yaa
> "gaRay murday ukhaaRnaa"! LOL
>
> aek 20 baras puraani taHreer, jab-k transliteration abhi duudh-peeti bachchii thi. tab se le kar ab tak kitne puloN ke neeche se kitna paani bah chukaa hai --
>

> aur chuuN-k aap ne yeh "Haseen Harakat" mujhe phaNsaane ke liye kii hai, isi liye to yeh muhaavara banaa hai:
>
> (Regardless of gender) "billii sheeNh paRhaayaa, muR billii khaan aayaa"! :-)
>
> yaa yeh bhi kah sakte haiN:
>
> "kuRiyaaN hamaare des ki chaalaak ho ga'iiN"! :-)

RK sahib,

How about this muhaavara:

"ulTe baaNs Bareli ko" :-)

I just couldn't resist posting your she'r in its 'original' form, it was too tempting! And it was fun to visit the old thread. I miss those old friends, in particular the ladies, especially their generally 'gentler' 'more lively' style of communication. I am sure you miss them too. Oh well, life is fluid.

>
> aek baat aur:
>
> apne aap ko "star pupil" kahna "apne muNh miyaaN miTThuu" ban_ne vaali baat hai --- and the same goes with flaunting one's "double-major" degree --- especially since it was obtained from the "Trump University"! ROTFL

Raj uncle, pleeeeeeeease NOOOOOO. I don't want any association with 45, I am in the "Never T" group. How many days till Nov 3? :-))

Oh, and the rate at which our Alup courses are progressing, before you know I will be a "triple major"! :-)))

And for the record, I know I have many virtues, but have I ever claimed modesty being one of them? :) voh kya hai naa RK sahib, mera mizaaj hii kuChh shaahanaa hai. Runs in the family, from the only-daughter-of-a-titled-landlord father "my mom", to my drop-dead-gorgeous-sister whom we actually call "Rani"! That reminds me, aap dhyaan hii nahiiN de rahe, maiN do tiin baar ishaaraa kar chukii huuN k aap kaa diyaa hua title "malikaa" zaraa puraanaa ho gaya hai, I am ready to be a "maha-malikaa!" :--))))

>
> baaqii baateN aglii baar
> merii jeet, tumhaarii haar
>
> B/W, it is "tu mhaa rii", not "tum haarii". LOL

Of course, no confusion at all. aap mujh se muKhaatib haiN Prof sahib, "tum haarii" just won't sound right! :)
>
> R.K.***

Your all-time -favorite-brightest-of-all-** 5 star** pupil,
_________Zoya

[Zoya]

Back to "aaj ka she'r":

I have always loved this particular she'r, every time I think of it, I can feel a certain glow around me, positive vibes:

yeh mere chaaroN taraf kis liye ujaalaa hai?
tira Khayaal hai yaa din nikalne vaalaa hai? :)

[Raj Kumar]

***
yeh kyaa hu'aa k mahakne lagii hai tanhaa'ii
tire Khayaal ki shaayad chalii hai pur'vaa'ii
[Qais]
***

[Zoya]

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 12:05:43 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> yeh kyaa hu'aa k mahakne lagii hai tanhaa'ii
> tire Khayaal ki shaayad chalii hai pur'vaa'ii
> [Qais]
> ***

bahut Khuub!

Nasir Kazmi yaad aa gaye:

tire Khayaal se lau de uThhii hai tanhaaii
shab-e-firaaq hai yaa teri jalvaa_ aaraai??

[B.G. M.]

“yehii bahut hai kih naqsh-e-qadam se bach jaayeN
suKhan meN rastaa kis ne nayaa nikaalaa hai?”
~Mohsin Bhopali
==========================
[KuChh isii taraH kaa eik she’r Saifuddin “Saif” sahab ne bhi kahaa hai...kehte haiN,
“woh to andaaz-e-bayaaN rang badal detaa hai
vernah duniya meN ko’ii baat nayii baat nahiiN!”]
======================================

[Mohit]

qasid payam-e-shauq ko dena bahut na tuul,
kahna faqat ye un se ki aankheN taras gayiN - Jaleel Manikpuri

[B.G. M.]

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:01:37 AM UTC-4, Mohit wrote:
> qasid payam-e-shauq ko dena bahut na tuul,
> kahna faqat ye un se ki aankheN taras gayiN - Jaleel Manikpuri

“Khat paRh ke kahiiN aur bigaR baiThe nah, yaa Rab!
yaad aa’ii hai abruu dam-e-tahreer kisii ki!”

~Jitendra Mohan Sinha “Rahbar”
===================================

[Zoya]

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 11:01:37 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> qasid payam-e-shauq ko dena bahut na tuul,
> kahna faqat ye un se ki aankheN taras gayiN - Jaleel Manikpuri

shaam bhii ho gayi dhundlaa gayiiN aakheN bhii mirii
bhuulne vaale maiN kab tak tiraa rastaa dekhuuN? :(

Parveen Shakir

[Raj Kumar]

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 11:32:30 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab
>
> On Saturday, 5 September 2020 06:25:56 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> >
> > meri raaye ke mutaabiq, “fufkaar” Hindi ka shabd to ho nahiiN sakta kyuuN-k Hindi bhaashaa meN ‘fe’ ki aavaaz hi nahiiN hai. haaN, Faarsi ka ho sakta hai magar hameN to kahiiN nahiiN milaa. ain mumkin hai k saHeeH lafz “phunkaar” ho, jis ka matlab vuhi hai jo aap ne liyaa hai --- ya’ani, saaNp ke phuuNk maarne ka amal.
> >
> > In any case, your paraphrase of the she’r is quite sound!
>
> Yes, you are absolutely right that there is no "f" sound in Hindi but for some strange reason, some if not many Hindi speakers convert the "ph" words to "f" ones. For example, all these words would be pronounced by "f".
>
> phaaNsii, pheNknaa, phaaTak, phal, phuul, phaaNk, phaaNsnaa, phaphuuNdii, phiikaa, phaa'oRaa (shovel), phaTnaa, phurtii, phaRaknaa, phaRphaRaanaa, phisalnaa, phuslaanaa, phalii, phulvaaRii, pherii-vaalaa, phere, phaagun, phephRaa, phan (of a snake)etc.

_______________

***janaab Naseer sahib:

First of all, I apologize for not having responded to many of your latest posts which "memorialize" my deeds of the past. You know, these days I am overwhelmed by the task of proof-reading, which tires my eyes so much that I don't feel like looking at my computer screen more than what is absolutely necessary.

I also owe my response to several other ALUPers, especially to Zoya sahiba, for their very interesting posts; I hope they can continue to have patience till I am in a position to do so.

I am surprised to hear that some Hindi speakers pronounce "ph" as "f" as often as you have indicated. Even so, I would dare say that many more of such speakers pronounce "f" as "ph". The former group doesn't amuse me as much as the latter group annoys me.

The same about z vs j ---- again, by my experience, more Hindi speaking people
pronounce z as j than the ones who pronounce j as z. Here again, the minority group amuses me while the majority group annoys me.

Right here at ALUP, we have had a recent amusing example provided by Mohit sahib who wrote zoo-e-sheer in place of juu-e-sheer. This definitely put a smile on my lips and reminded me of a radio recitation by Amrita Pritam in which she said zaabir instead of jaabir. I heard it with my own ears when I was a student in Hoshiarpur.

This threw me in a funny mood and I told my friends what could have been the reason for this (mis)pronunciation. I surmised that may be her lover, that well known poet who came from the same industrial town as ZS did, might have told her that she shouldn't pronounce zindagii as jindagii or zabaan as jabaan or zukaam as jukaam. But the poor girl took this advise so seriously that she started saying zaaHil instad of jaahil, zurm istead of jurm and hence zaabir instead of jaabir!*** LOL

> > (ii) Mohit sahib, please double-check this term; it could very well be “gahri phunkaareN”!
>
> The shi3r in question is:
>
> pyaar kii gahrii phunkaaroN sesaaraa badan aakaash hu'aa hai
> duudh pilaanaa, tan Dasvaanaa, hai dastuur puraanaa, baabaa
>

***Well, here you go, Naseer sahib ---- our "impeccable source-master"!

I can't say if Mohit sahib double-checked this or not, but at least we now know that the correct word was indeed "phunkaareN", as your humble friend had suggested.

Looking back and trusting your earlier observation, I wouldn't be surprised if the word had become "funkaareN" --- but "fufkaareN"?

In any case, ZS is sure to include "fufkaar" in the next edition of her "Dictionary of Distorted Words"!

baaqii baateN aglii baar
yaar tumhaaraa Raaj Kumaar***

[Naseer]

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

Yes I am aware of your committment for proof reading your book. This doubles and trebles our appreciation for your troubles with people like us in the forum.

Regarding various mispronunciations/wrong transliterations I think the reasons are quite straight forward.

1. If you have not been reading literature in Urdu script and have only familiarity with Devanagri and/or Gurmukhi (or another Indian script), the chances are you are not going to be familiar with the knowledge whether the word is with a j or a z sound or whether it is ph or f, g or Gh, x or kh etc.

Allow me please to quote the well known and respected Indian intellectual, Professor Alok Rai, author of a landmark book "Hindi Nationalism" from an interview that he gave to a fellow colleague from the University of Delhi, Professor Shahid Amin. He was bemoaning the omission of "bindis" by Hindi printers and publishers which he termed as "vandalism" and gave an example of the way the seventh President of India 's name, Zail Singh with a "ja" instead of "ja" with a bindi underneath it.(ذیل سنگھ , ज़ैल सिंह not जेल सिंह !)

The link below with the title "A Debate between Alok Rai and Shahid Amin Regarding Hindi" has the whole interview for interested parties.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...LuUedNJeeLM0RaE-A&sig2=ZcgrgCc_JEEFLLk5v_mg6Q

Here is the quote from page 189.

"The ultimate irony is that till the day he died, Zail Singh, the President of India could never get his name written properly in Hindi. They would never put a bindi under "ja", it would always be "Jail Singh"..


2. I think a bit of background knowledge is also important. It would be unfair for us to expect Mohit SaaHib to be aware of "juu-i-shiir" just as I was unfamiliar with "Dashrath". We have to give this ri3aayat to our friends who are not au fait with some cultural/religious linkage with the shi3r.


Naseer

[Raj Kumar]

_______________

***udhar Hindi vaale bindi nahiiN Daalte, idhar Urdu vaale zer/zabar/pesh nahiiN Daalte --- aur museebat meN haiN ham sabhii!

Angrezi vaale likhte haiN "know" aur paRhte haiN "no", likhte haiN "psalm" aur paRhte haiN "saam" --- aisi likhaa'ii ko duur se salaaam!

R.K.***

[nagesh]

On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 11:01:19 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:

Naseer Sahib:
Salaam! I am preoccupied these days, but I cannot stay away from ALUP, though I can only browse for a few minutes. This post got my attention. I was a student at St. Stephen's College when Shahid Amin was there. His father was a history professor and was always referred to as Amin Sahib. I have vivid memories of both father and son. So I clicked on the link you sent. It did not work. I have no idea why it did not work, but if you fix it, I would be very grateful. I am sure I will want to take a break from the drudgery that consumes my time now, and I would love to see what is at the link you found.
Warm regards,
Nagesh

[Naseer]

Nagesh SaaHib, please try this link again.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFAQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fminds.wisconsin.edu%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F1793%2F18542%2F12AminRai.pdf&ei=7Jl0ULC_JMaH0AWymoDwDw&usg=AFQjCNGWJKUIyi_rfLuUedNJeeLM0RaE-A&sig2=ZcgrgCc_JEEFLLk5v_mg6Q

Naseer

[nagesh]

Many thanks, Naseer Sahib. The link works and I have downloaded the article.
Gratefully,
Nagesh

[Zoya]

mujhe ek she'r bahut pyaaraa lagtaa hai, is meiN ishq-e-majaazi aur ishq-e-haqiiqi kaa sangam hai. If I close my eyes, I can visualize this, pure, peaceful and serene.

aaj ka she'r:

maiN ne dekhaa hai muhabbat ko badan pehnaa kar
haath joRe hue baiThhii ho pujaaran jaise

[B.G. M.]

Waa..h! Kis kaa she’r hai yeh! Waaqeyii baRaa pyaasaa she’r hai, Zoya Saahibah 👍

ab, Pujaaran par yeh suniye...



“aaj alhaR pujaaran woh aa’ii nahiiN, dil ke mandir meN ghanTii bajaa’ii nahiiN
aas ke sab diye TimTimaane lagay, mere jazbaat kii ghanTiyaaN so ga’iiN

ghaaT dil kaa mire aaj sunsaan hai, ko’ii gopii nahaane ab aatii nahiiN
meri murlee ki dhun ab larazne lagii, mere madhuban ki sab gopiyaaN so ga’iiN!”

~Ateeq Anzar (Qatar)
=======================================

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 12:33:28 PM UTC-5, B.G. M. wrote:
>
> Waa..h! Kis kaa she’r hai yeh! Waaqeyii baRaa pyaaraa she’r hai, Zoya Saahibah 👍
>

BGM sahib,

is baar mujhe sach meiN nahiiN ma'aluum k yeh kis kaa she'r hai. aaj subah maiN bhii yahii yaad karne kii koshish kar rahii thii. ise maiN ne ek baar kahiiN paRhaa thaa, aur tab se yeh mere zehn-o-dil par naqsh hai, aur mujhe aksar yaad aataa rehtaa hai. In a way, I live it.

> ab, Pujaaran par yeh suniye...
>
> “aaj alhaR pujaaran woh aa’ii nahiiN, dil ke mandir meN ghanTii bajaa’ii nahiiN
> aas ke sab diye TimTimaane lagay, mere jazbaat kii ghanTiyaaN so ga’iiN
>
> ghaaT dil kaa mire aaj sunsaan hai, ko’ii gopii nahaane ab aatii nahiiN
> meri murlee ki dhun ab larazne lagii, mere madhuban ki sab gopiyaaN so ga’iiN!”
>
> ~Ateeq Anzar (Qatar)
> =======================================

Nice. Different. Thanks.

[Mohit]

kuchh isi tarah ka sher hai

uski aankhoN ko gHaur se dekho,
mandiroN mein charaagH jalte haiN - Bashir Badr

[Raj Kumar]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 7:43:05 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:
> kuchh isi tarah ka sher hai
>
> uski aankhoN ko gHaur se dekho,
> mandiroN mein charaagH jalte haiN - Bashir Badr
>

***is zimn meN yeh she'r bhi qaabil-e-Ghaur hai:

diloN ko tere tabassum ki yaad yuuN aa'ii
k jagmagaa uTheN jis tar'H maNdiroN meN charaaGh
[Firaaq G.]

Please note the significant difference between the two ash'aar.

R.K.***

[Mohit]

beautiful sir... and this Bashir Badr's gem is absolute stunning

geele geele maNdiroN meiN baal khole deviyaN,
sochti haiN unke suuraj devtaa kab aayeNge...

[Raj Kumar]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 9:34:14 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:
> beautiful sir... and this Bashir Badr's gem is absolute stunning
>
> geele geele maNdiroN meiN baal khole deviyaN,
> sochti haiN unke suuraj devtaa kab aayeNge...
>

***Very nice, Mohit sahib. Now, what about this one?

saarii sakhiyaaN puuchh rahii haiN aaj "hamaarii Raadhaa" se
tere man ke briNdaa-ban meN kis ne raas rachaa'ii hai?
[Qais]***

[Zoya]

Continuing in the same vein, I have always liked this one by JaaN Nisaar Akhtar:

dekhuuN tire haathoN ko to lagtaa hai tire haath
mandir meiN faqat diip jalaane ke liye haiN

[Mohit]

Nida Fazli's doha is somewhat related

poojaghar mein muurti, meera ke sang shyam,
jiski jitni chaakari, utne uske daam

[Zoya]

Thought of the day, simply amazing:

voh baat kar jise phailaa ke maiN ghazal keh luuN
sunaa voh she'r jo maiN ne abhii kahaa hi nahiiN!

[nagesh]

sukhan dard ka ab kahaa jaaye na
kahaa jaaye bhi to sunaa jaaye na. (Faraaz)

[Zoya]

On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 11:14:58 AM UTC-5, nagesh wrote:

> sukhan dard ka ab kahaa jaaye na
> kahaa jaaye bhi to sunaa jaaye na. (Faraaz)

kuChh bhii na kahaa aur keh bhii gaye
kuChh kehte kehte reh bhii gaye! :)

[Mohit]

subah hi sun raha tha

jo aa ke ruke daaman pe 'Saba', wo ashq nahi hai paani hai
jo ashq na chhalke aaNkhoN se, us ashq ki qeemat hoti hai - Saba Afghani

[Naseer]

The word is "ashk", Mohit SaaHib. You have converted "kaaf" to "qaaf" where there is a distinct difference in sound just as there is a difference between the letter "saad/swaad" and the letter "zaad/zwaad".

bikhar chalaa hai meraa tan magar nahiiN TuuTe
*qamiis* par jo baTan the tere lagaa'e hu'e

Ahmad Mushtaq

It is quite fashionable these days to say and write qamiiz for the correct qamiis. But we must pay due respect to the word the poet has written and not add what we fancy.

Naseer

[Mohit]

Sir this is getting more embarrassing for me, apologies will take even more care... I will tell you one interesting insight from the newsroom I work in. These days the Hindi News Channels are emphasising more on purity of written text on the screen, thus extra caution is given for 'Nuqtas', now whenever any news drops in, the first question asked in the newsroom is not What is the news... the question is... 'Nuqta kahan kahan aayega'... apologies... will be more careful next time

[Zoya]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:04:51 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> Sir this is getting more embarrassing for me, apologies will take even more care... I will tell you one interesting insight from the newsroom I work in. These days the Hindi News Channels are emphasising more on purity of written text on the screen, thus extra caution is given for 'Nuqtas', now whenever any news drops in, the first question asked in the newsroom is not What is the news... the question is... 'Nuqta kahan kahan aayega'... apologies... will be more careful next time
>

Mohit,

aaj kaa she'r yeh hai, aap ke pasaNdiidah Bashir Badr sahib kaa:

miyaaN diivaan kaa mat r'ob Daalo
paRho koii ghazal jo vaaq'aii ho! :-)

Merry posting,

____Zoya

[nagesh]

Mohit Sahib:

Welcome to the Embarrassment Club. I am a long time member. I find that if you pay close attention to those who know a lot more - like Raj Kumar Sahib, Naseer Sahib, and Zoya Sahiba, you will start making fewer mistakes.
Regards,
Nagesh

[Zoya]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 11:55:15 AM UTC-5, nagesh wrote:

> Mohit Sahib:
>
> Welcome to the Embarrassment Club. I am a long time member. I find that if you pay close attention to those who know a lot more - like Raj Kumar Sahib, Naseer Sahib, and Zoya Sahiba, you will start making fewer mistakes.
> Regards,
> Nagesh

Nagesh sahib,

meri taubah, yeh aap mujhe kis saf meiN khaRaa kar rahe haiN? :)

Mohit, I really enjoy the asha'ar you post, and my focus is mostly on the content. Keep them coming.

_______Zoya

[Raj Kumar]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 6:12:40 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:

> aaj kaa she'r yeh hai, aap ke pasaNdiidah Bashir Badr sahib kaa:
>
> miyaaN diivaan kaa mat r'ob Daalo
> paRho koii ghazal jo vaaq'aii ho! :-)
>

Zoya saaHiba, lafz "diivaan" se yaad aayaa k maiN aap ki taaza Ghazal par yeh kahnaa to bhuul hi gayaa:

yeh Ghazal to shaa'irii ki jaan hai
qaid is meN Miir kaa diivaan hai! :-)

R.K.***

[Zoya]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 2:00:52 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> Zoya saaHiba, lafz "diivaan" se yaad aayaa k maiN aap ki taaza Ghazal par yeh kahnaa to bhuul hi gayaa:
>
> yeh Ghazal to shaa'irii ki jaan hai
> qaid is meN Miir kaa diivaan hai! :-)
>
> R.K.***

RK sahib :-)

ab is par maiN kyaa kahuuN?!

aap ko to pataa hai k Firaaq Gorakhpuri Khud farmaa gaye haiN:

tuu ek thaa mire asha'ar meiN hazaar hua
is ik chiraagh se kitne chiraagh jal uThhe! :)

[Zoya]

RK sahib,

After some pondering, I was able to answer my own taqtii'a questions posted earlier today. :)

Anyways, here is the she'r of the day again:

uThhtaa hai dil-o-jaaN se dhuaaN donoN taraf hii
yeh Meer ka diivaan yahaaN bhii hai vahaaN bhii

[Zoya]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 12:55:34 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> subah hi sun raha tha
>

> jo aa ke ruke daaman pe 'Saba', wo ashk nahi hai paani hai
> jo ashk na chhalke aaNkhoN se, us ashk ki qeemat hoti hai
- Saba Afghani
>

chup ho gaye tere rone vaale
dunyaa ka Khayaal aa gayaa hai

Firaaq Gorakhpuri

[Raj Kumar]

***I myself was wondering why you got confused over this word, which is always "diivaan (221)" and never "divaan (121)". May be, you were misled by diivaana/divaana.

In any case, here is a remarkable she'r on the word "diivaan"

zamaana daastaan-e-qalb sun_ne ko tarastaa hai
isii Khaatir sar-aaNkhoN par miraa diivaan lete haiN!
[Firaaq G.]

R.K.***

[Raj Kumar]

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:18:17 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 12:55:34 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> > subah hi sun raha tha
> >
> > jo aa ke ruke daaman pe 'Saba', wo ashk nahi hai paani hai
> > jo ashk na chhalke aaNkhoN se, us ashk ki qeemat hoti hai
> - Saba Afghani

***betaabi-e-dil, beshak palkoN pe chalii aanaa
lekin yeh tirii Had hai, is Had se na baRh jaanaa!
[Jagan Nath Azad]

R.K.***

[Zoya]

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:27:44 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> ***I myself was wondering why you got confused over this word, which is always "diivaan (221)" and never "divaan (121)". May be, you were misled by diivaana/divaana.

RK sahib,

You are absolutely right, divaanaa/diivaanaa was the root cause of the confusion. Coming from songs like "zamaanaa kya kahegaa... divaanaa kyaa kahegaa" I have always wondered if both versions are legit, depending on the meter? I figured out that 'diivaan' it is, always. But still not sure if 'divaanaa' is acceptable, outside of filmi songs of course. Is it?

>
> In any case, here is a remarkable she'r on the word "diivaan"
>
> zamaana daastaan-e-qalb sun_ne ko tarastaa hai
> isii Khaatir sar-aaNkhoN par miraa diivaan lete haiN!
> [Firaaq G.]

bahut Khuub!

aur yeh bhii Firaaq hii haiN:

jo daastaan-e-zubaan-e-ghazal bhi keh na sakii
nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se! :-)

He can be absolutely breathtaking. There really is no one else like Firaaq.

>
> R.K.***
________Zoya

[Raj Kumar]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:54:00 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:27:44 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> >
> > ***I myself was wondering why you got confused over this word, which is always "diivaan (221)" and never "divaan (121)". May be, you were misled by diivaana/divaana.
> RK sahib,
>
> You are absolutely right, divaanaa/diivaanaa was the root cause of the confusion. Coming from songs like "zamaanaa kya kahegaa... divaanaa kyaa kahegaa" I have always wondered if both versions are legit, depending on the meter? I figured out that 'diivaan' it is, always. But still not sure if 'divaanaa' is acceptable, outside of filmi songs of course. Is it?

***Once for all, Zoya sahiba, "diivaan" is right, "divaan" is wrong, whereas both "diivaana" and "divaana" are right! As for the last one, the following she'r by Miir is often quoted:

dhuum hai phir bahaar aane kii
kuchh karo fikr mujh divaane kii***

> aur yeh bhii Firaaq hii haiN:
>
> jo daastaan-e-zubaan-e-ghazal bhi keh na sakii
> nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se! :-)
>
> He can be absolutely breathtaking. There really is no one else like Firaaq.
>

***mere Khayaal meN, is she'r ki saHiiH shakl kuchh yuuN hai:

jo daastaaneN zabaan-e-Ghazal bhi kah na sakii

nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se

Now, it is even more breathtaking! :-)

R.K.***

[Zoya]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Once for all, Zoya sahiba, "diivaan" is right, "divaan" is wrong, whereas both "diivaana" and "divaana" are right! As for the last one, the following she'r by Miir is often quoted:
>
> dhuum hai phir bahaar aane kii
> kuchh karo fikr mujh divaane kii***

Thank you so much RK sahib, this is something that had been nagging me for a long while, I am so glad to get a definitive answer, with a seal by none other than the mighty Meer himself! And now for the nth time: What would I do without you? :)

>
> > aur yeh bhii Firaaq hii haiN:
> >
> > jo daastaan-e-zubaan-e-ghazal bhi keh na sakii
> > nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se! :-)
> >
> > He can be absolutely breathtaking. There really is no one else like Firaaq.
> >
> ***mere Khayaal meN, is she'r ki saHiiH shakl kuchh yuuN hai:
>
> jo daastaaneN zabaan-e-Ghazal bhi kah na sakii
> nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se
>
> Now, it is even more breathtaking! :-)

When posting, I actually did pause over it and wondered. I had quoted it right out of hard copy "gul-e-naghma", and just double checked. It has 'dastaan' with a 'zer' underneath, no nuun ghunna or ye. Of course, I'll take your word over the printed copy any day. And yes, it is even more breathtaking now. :)

>
> R.K.***

[Raj Kumar]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:32:04 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> Thank you so much RK sahib, this is something that had been nagging me for a long while, I am so glad to get a definitive answer, with a seal by none other than the mighty Meer himself!

And now for the nth time: What would I do without you? :)

***javaaban arz hai:

maanaa k ham pe jaur-o-jafaa keejiye ga aap
lekin hameeN na hoN ge to kyaa keejiye ga aap?
[Firaaq G.]***

> > > aur yeh bhii Firaaq hii haiN:
> > >
> > > jo daastaan-e-zubaan-e-ghazal bhi keh na sakii
> > > nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se! :-)
> > >
> > > He can be absolutely breathtaking. There really is no one else like Firaaq.
> > >
> > ***mere Khayaal meN, is she'r ki saHiiH shakl kuchh yuuN hai:
> >
> > jo daastaaneN zabaan-e-Ghazal bhi kah na sakii
> > nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se
> >

> > Now, it is even more breathtaking!*** :-)

> When posting, I actually did pause over it and wondered. I had quoted it right out of hard copy "gul-e-naghma", and just double checked. It has 'dastaan' with a 'zer' underneath, no nuun Ghunna or ye. Of course, I'll take your word over the printed copy any day. And yes, it is even more breathtaking now. :)
>
***I said "mere Khayaal meN" --- because the first izaafat here did not make much sense to me. So I suggested what seemed good at that time. However, with the new information you have provided now, I still feel that the first izaafat is an "error", and the correct misr'a is:

jo daastaan zabaan-e-Ghazal bhi kah na sakii.

Please note that both daastaan and daastaaneN fit equally well in this baHr, and the paraphrase of the she'r without the first izaafat is far more meaningful.

R.K.***

[Zoya]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 9:57:25 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> ***javaaban arz hai:
>
> maanaa k ham pe jaur-o-jafaa keejiye ga aap
> lekin hameeN na hoN ge to kyaa keejiye ga aap?
> [Firaaq G.]***

phir to ham ghaleban kuChh yuuN kaheN ge, baqaul JE:

kis se izhaar-e-mudda'a kiije?
aap milte nahiiN haiN kyaa kiije??

> > > >
> > > > jo daastaan-e-zubaan-e-ghazal bhi keh na sakii
> > > > nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se! :-)
> > > >

> > > ***mere Khayaal meN, is she'r ki saHiiH shakl kuchh yuuN hai:
> > >
> > > jo daastaaneN zabaan-e-Ghazal bhi kah na sakii
> > > nigaah-e-naaz sunaatii hai kis fasaaHat se
> > >

> > When posting, I actually did pause over it and wondered. I had quoted it right out of hard copy "gul-e-naghma", and just double checked. It has 'dastaan' with a 'zer' underneath, no nuun Ghunna or ye. Of course, I'll take your word over the printed copy any day.

> >

> ***I said "mere Khayaal meN" --- because the first izaafat here did not make much sense to me. So I suggested what seemed good at that time. However, with the new information you have provided now, I still feel that the first izaafat is an "error", and the correct misr'a is:
>
> jo daastaan zabaan-e-Ghazal bhi kah na sakii.
>
> Please note that both daastaan and daastaaneN fit equally well in this baHr, and the paraphrase of the she'r without the first izaafat is far more meaningful.

I agree RK sahib. I do that a lot, when reading a she'r containing izaafat, if it doesn't add up at first glance, I always paraphrase it, and did it on this one too. It read "ghazal kii zubaan kii dastaan", didn't sound very good, but made some sense so I let the 'zer' stay, albeit hesitantly.

I think the issue is the 'zer zabar' is missing so often in the printed Urdu texts that if it is actually printed, I try to justify it. Lesson here: not always justified.

Thanks, for everything.
>
> R.K.***

____Zoya

[Zoya]

aaj kaa she'r:

Very high on my favorite poet list is Irfan Siddiqui.

un kii ek ghazal zara alag sii hai, aur mujhe baRii pasand hai. us kaa matlaa:

koii chiThhii likho rang bharii koii muThhii kholo bhaag bharii
kabhii din biiteN bairaag bhare kabhii rut aaye anuraag bharii

[Mohit]

a hindi sher... I was going to post a hindi sher on 14th when it is Hindi Diwas here in India... read these in a book called hindi ghazal, when I was in college, (mid 90s)

chhodiye bhi zid na kariye us fasane ke liye,
har koi kissa nahi hota sunane ke liye

sirf thode se tajurbe hi bahut kaafi hue,
waqt se pehle humein boodha banane ke liye

uske sar pe tamtamaati dhoop hi dikhlai di,
hum gaye jis oar chhaoN paane ke liye...

Hindi Ghazal probably because the poet originally wrote this in devnagari, and like always I didn't note the name of the poet but she was good as far as I remember

[Naseer]

For Hindi Mohit SaaHib, I would have expected at least "sir" for "sar" if I was n't asking for Hindi equivalents for zid, fasaane, vaqt, sirf, kissa, tajrube and kaafii. "kariye" certainly gives it a Hindi flavour although in older Urdu poetry, this format was used.

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 10:18:41 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> a hindi sher... I was going to post a hindi sher on 14th when it is Hindi Diwas here in India... read these in a book called hindi ghazal, when I was in college, (mid 90s)
>
> chhodiye bhi zid na kariye us fasane ke liye,
> har koi kissa nahi hota sunane ke liye
>
> sirf thode se tajurbe hi bahut kaafi hue,
> waqt se pehle humein boodha banane ke liye
>
> uske sar pe tamtamaati dhoop hi dikhlai di,
> hum gaye jis oar chhaoN paane ke liye...
>
> Hindi Ghazal probably because the poet originally wrote this in devnagari, and like always I didn't note the name of the poet but she was good as far as I remember
>

Nice. There are several issues with vazn and some words too, but I agree, the general thoughts are pretty good. Thanks.

[Zoya]

Irfan Siddiqui again:

suno apnaa apnaa kaam kareN, sur-taal pe kyuN ilzaam dhareN
miyaaN apnii apnii bansuriyaa, koii raag bharii koii aag bharii

[Mohit]

Gopal Das Neeraj's 'hindi' sher

mujhko us vaidya ki vidya pe taras aata hai,
bhookhe-nangoN ko jo sehat ki dawa deta hai...


in some versions the sher is written as

mujhe us vaid ki vidya pe taras aata hai,
bhookhe logoN ko jo sehat ki dawa deta hai

[Zoya]

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 10:03:22 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> Gopal Das Neeraj's 'hindi' sher
>

> in some versions the sher is written as
>
> mujhe us vaid ki vidya pe taras aata hai,
> bhookhe logoN ko jo sehat ki dawa deta hai
>

Nice, Mohit sahib.

It has to be a combination of the two versions, individually they do not add up.

Probably something like:

> mujh ko us vaid ki vidya pe taras aata hai,

[Zoya]

aaj kaa she'r:

sab ho chukaa hai saabit
ab laam qaaf mat kar!

[Zoya]

Just when you think 2020 can't get any worse..... Today I am mourning the passing of one of my most favorite women, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg. A justice of historic stature, a tireless pioneer of equal rights for all, a mentor to many younger women including myself. Her legacy is lasting, and irreplaceable.

baiThe baiThe kaisaa dil ghabraa jaataa hai
jaane vaaloN kaa jaanaa yaad aa jaataa hai :(

[Mohit]

jaane wale gaye bhi kahaaN,
chaand suuraj ghata ho gaye...

[Zoya]

On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 10:04:11 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> jaane wale gaye bhi kahaaN,
> chaand suuraj ghata ho gaye...
>

Beautiful.

This one is for the politicians everywhere:

dekho voh bhii haiN jo sab keh sakte the
dekho un ke muNh par taale ab bhii haiN

[Zoya]

aaj kaa she'r:

voh uThh bhii chuke kab ke, voh jaa bhii chuke kab ke
dil hai k 'Firaaq' ab tak daaman ko ChhuRaaye hai

[Zoya]

thii muntazir sii duniyaa, Khaamosh thiiN fazaayeN
aayii jo yaad terii, chalne lagiiN havaayeN!

[nagesh]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 8:26:23 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> thii muntazir sii duniyaa, Khaamosh thiiN fazaayeN
> aayii jo yaad terii, chalne lagiiN havaayeN!

Vah! Zoya Sahiba: Who is the poet?

Nagesh

[Zoya]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:53:47 AM UTC-5, nagesh wrote:

> > thii muntazir sii duniyaa, Khaamosh thiiN fazaayeN
> > aayii jo yaad terii, chalne lagiiN havaayeN!

> Vah! Zoya Sahiba: Who is the poet?
>
> Nagesh

RK sahib probably knew right away! :)

It is Firaaq Goarakhpuri, Nagesh sahib. I have been rediscovering him lately, and just can't seem to get enough. I go through similar phases with Nasir Kazmi too every so often.

Here is one more that I think of often, by Firaaq again:

yeh zindagi ke kaRe kos, yaad aataa hai
tirii nigaah-e-karam kaa ghanaa ghanaa saaya!

[Raj Kumar]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 9:17:07 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
>
> It is Firaaq Goarakhpuri, Nagesh sahib. I have been rediscovering him lately, and just can't seem to get enough. I go through similar phases with Nasir Kazmi too every so often.
>

****ZS, aap ke is tajribe ki vajah yeh hai k Nasir Kazmi ke kalaam par Firaaq sahib ka asar jagah jagah dikhaa'ii deta hai ---- Khaas kar un ke pahle kalaam par. ba'ad meN, NK ne usi tarz-e-suKhan ko aur jilaa di aur Khud apna nayaa raNg paida kiyaa. is zimn meN, chaNd misaaleN dekhiye:

FG (1943) and NK (1947):

FG says --- ruukhe suukhe Husn se bhaag in phuuloN meN ras na paraag

NK says --- yeh nagrii aNdhyaarii hai is nagrii se jaldii bhaag

FG says --- sonay ko to umr paRii hai is dunyaa meN aaj to jaag

NK says --- Khatm hu'aa taaroN ka raag jaag musaafir, ab to jaag

FG says --- ablaq-e-dahr ke asvaaroN ke haath se chhuuT ga'ii hai baag

NK says --- din ka sunahraa naGhma sun kar ablaq-e-shab ne moRii baag

and many more! goyaa, mujhe yeh sun kar qat'an Hairat nahiiN hu'ii k aap ko in dono sho'araa ke saath aek jaisa tajriba hu'aa hai.

R.K.***