Punjabi Poetry
Umang Bali
This nazm is one in a class of its own...and I have seen it referred to
as Punjabi Blues, by Dr. Guri Bakshi, who used to be a regular
contributor to RMIM(rec.music.indian.misc) newsgroup....
Not many poets can evoke the kind of feelings that Shiv Kumar sahib
could... there are a few corrections in the lines that you've posted,
which should read as:
Raj Thapar wrote:
> Shiv Kumar Batalvi ki nazm arz hae.
>
> Mai ni mai, me ik shikra yaar banaya
maaN.aye ni maaN.aye mein ik shikra yaar banaaya
>
> Odhe sir the kalvi, the odhe paire chanjar
odae sir te kalgi, te odae pari jhanjhar
>
> Oh jog-joginda aaya
O chog chuginda aaya
>
> Ik odhi roop dhi dhoop dhi kheri
ik odae roop di dhoop tikhaeri
>
> Duja maikha da tirhaya
O duja mehkaN da tirhaaya
>
> Thija odha rang gulabi
teeja odaa rang gulabi
>
> Oh kisi gori maa da jaya
>
> ShukriYA
Regards,
Umang
vijay...@my-deja.com
Umang Bali <uma...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
> Thapar sahib,
>
there are a few corrections in the lines that you've posted,
Thapar and Umang Bali Sahebaan;
The definintive lines are as follows:
Maae nii maae
meN ik shikra yaar b'naya
Uhde* sir te kalgii
te uhde periiN jhaNjar
te uh chog chugiiNda ayaa
nii meN vaari jaaN
Ik uhde roop dii dhupp tikherii
dooja mehkaaN da tirhaayia
teeja uhda rang gulaabii
kise gorii maaN da jaayaa
ni meN vaari jaaN.
*Uhde could also be pronounced ohdhe or uhdhe
The poem goes on for another couple of pages. We perhaps should not
take up space in an Urdu Poetry page but Shiv Bataalvi happens to be my
favorite poet and I put him right at the top with Ghalib and
Shakespeare.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
vijay...@my-deja.com
Respectfully,
Vijay Kumar
Ali Minai
>
>The definintive lines are as follows:
>
>Maae nii maae
My sincere thanks to everyone who has posted this poem. I love
the Punjabi language, and am always glad to read nice poetry.
In the interest of readers who do not understand Punjabi, however,
may I request one of the posters to post a translation in Urdu or
English? Thanks.
Ali Minai
-----------------------------------------------------------------
sunAya rAt ko qissA jo hIr rANjhE kA
to ehl-e dard ko panjAbiyON ne lUT liyA. nAsiKH
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--
Ali Minai
Umang Bali
Thank you for the corrections...I have never heard the lines
nii mein vaari jaaN...with this particular nazm before....Which makes
me think that there might be parts of this nazm that I am missing...
If you could be so kind enough to post it in full...bahut mehrbaani
hogi....
Regards,
Umang
vijay...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> there are a few corrections in the lines that you've posted,
>
> Thapar and Umang Bali Sahebaan;
>
> The definintive lines are as follows:
>
> Maae nii maae
Umang Bali
As I had mentioned in my earlier post that there was a post on RMIM on this by
Dr. Guri Buxi, and a very good one at that....way better than any puny
translation I
could achieve..So I'm posting that article here, I hope if Dr. Buxi is reading
this he
might give a few more comments on this...Nevertheless, here is post:
Regards,
Umang
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Buxis post:
Perhaps the most well known Batalvi poem...made famous by a powerful
composition from Jagjit Singh in the album 'Birhaa Da Sultan'. No
percussion! Very sensitively strummed acoustic guitar, and sparse,
heart-rending connectiludes on a bass flute. This is Punjabi blues :)
maaye ni maaye
maiN ik shikraa yaar banaayaa
[maaye=(a folk address for) maaN]
[ni=(same as) ri]
[shikraa=a hunting bird found in Punjab, named 'ghulaab-chashm', usually
employed to hunt smaller birds]
maaN, I made a (new) friend: a shikraa!
ohday sir tay kalghee
te ohday paireeN jhaaNjar
oh chog chugeNdaa aayaa
[ohday=uskay]
[tay=par]
[kalghee=the bird's vortex-appendage, also a gems-studded ornament
attached to the top of the turban of Kings etc, a sign of royalty]
[paireeN=pairoN meiN]
[chog=birdfeed]
[chugeNdaa=chugtaa huaa]
The poet is describing the beauty of the beloved, how regal the beloved
looks, how the sound of the beloved's feet bring notes of jhaanjar to
the poet's ears. "maaN, vo chog chugtaa idhar aa niklaa (meree taraf)"
This last line may have the other layer of 'the shikraa bird flew over
this nest on his hunting rounds'.
ik ohday roop dee dhupp dhikheree
ho doojaa mehkaaN daa dhirhaayaa
teejaa ohdaa rang ghulaabee
oh kisay goree maaN daa jaayaa
[ik=ek]
[dee=kee]
[dhupp=dhoop]
[dhikheree=kaRakdaar, strong (chakaachauNdh kar dene waali)]
[mehkaaN=fragrances]
[daa=kaa]
[dhirhaayaa=bheegaa huaa, drenched]
[kisay=kisi]
[jaayaa=janmaa huaa]
More physical attributes...
Ek to uskay roop kee dhoop chakaachauNdh kar dene waalee tHee, doosray
uskaa badan mehekoN meiN bheegaa huaa tHaa, teesray uskaa rang aisaa
gHulaabee tHaa jaisay kisee goree maaN kaa janmaa ho.
ishkay daa ik palang nawaaree
ve asaaN chaananiyaaN vich dahyaa
tan dee chaadar ho gayee maiRee
ho us pair jaaN palangay paayaa
[ishkay daa=mohabbat kaa]
[palang nawaaree=niwaar se bunaa huaa palangh]
[asaaN=hamne]
[chaananiyaaN vich=chaaNdani (raatoN) meiN]
[dahyaa=bichhaayaa]
[maiRee=mailee, gandee]
[us=usne]
[jaaN=jo]
[palangay=palangh par]
obvious meanings...quite sensuous if you're familiar with this idiom.
dukhan mere nainaaN de kohye
te vich haR haNjuaaN daa aayaa
saaree raat gayee vich sochaaN
ho us eh kee zulm kamaayaa
[dukhan=dukhne lage]
[nainaaN de=naynoN ke, aaNkhoN ke]
[kohye=inner canthii, the parts of the eyes where the tear ducts open]
[haR=baaR, flood]
[haNjuaaN daa=aaNsuoN kaa]
[vich sochaaN=sochoN meiN]
[eh kee=yeh kyaa]
The remorse of the first morning-after.
subah-savayray lai ni vaTanaa
ve asaaN mal-mal os nahvaahyaa
dehee de vichoN nikalan chinagaaN
ni saahDaa hatth gayaa kuhmalaayaa
[subah-savayaray=in the early morn]
[lai=lekar]
[vaTana=nahaane kaa patthar, the scrub-stone]
[os=usko]
[nahvaahyaa=nehlaayaa]
[dehee=badan]
[chinagaaN=the sensation of 'pins-'n-needles' felt when dry skin (of the
one who's helping bathe another) is exposed to the heat (of the sun)]
[saahDaa=hamaaraa]
[hatth=haath]
[kuhmalaayaa=(isn't this a Hindi word, too?) sprained]
Again, a very sensuous stanza... the beloved being bathed after
consummation... a lot of 'giving'.
chooree kuTTaaN taaN oh khaaoNdaa naaheeN
ve asaaN dil daa maas khawaayaa
ik uDaaree aisee maaree
ik uDaaree aisee maaree
[chooree=pakaayee huyi roTee ko maakhan meiN masal-masal kar
chooTe-chhoTe TukroN meiN kar dene se jo bantaa hai]
[kuTaan=chooree banaayi nahiN jaatee, kooTee jatee hai]
[taaN=to, tab]
[oh=vo]
[khaaoNdaa naaheeN=khaataa nahiN]
[khawaayaa=khilaayaa]
[uDaaree=(also a Hindi word?) uRaan, flight]
This thought, of feeding one's 'dil ka maas' to the beloved has been
expressed by someone else also, I think... nevertheless touching,
especially in this composition.
oh muR wataneeN naa aayaa, o maaye nee!
maiN ik shikraa yaar banaayaa
[muR=muR kar]
[wataneeN=watan (desh) kee taraf]
That cry of 'o maaye nee!' has hardly ever failed to bring tears to my
eyes :) Very effective. But, y'know... that's what they say it's all
about... give!
A must-listen.
guri
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ali Minai wrote:
> In article <7lri4p$vm2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <vijay...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >The definintive lines are as follows:
> >
> >Maae nii maae
vijay...@my-deja.com
Umang Bali <uma...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
> Vijay Kumar sahib,
>
> Thank you for the corrections...I have never heard the lines
> nii mein vaari jaaN...with this particular nazm before....Which makes
> me think that there might be parts of this nazm that I am missing...
> If you could be so kind enough to post it in full...bahut mehrbaani
> hogi....
>
> Regards,
>
> Umang
>
First of all, many thanks for posting Dr. Guri Baxi's excellent
dissertation on this geet. He confines himself to the words sung by
Jagjit Singh. I post below the complete (minus the first two stanzas I
have posted in my previous post) geet from complete works of Shiv
Kumar. You will note that Jagjit Singh has taken some liberties here
and there with the words.
Ali Minai Sahib, thanks for your endorsement but unfortunately it is
beyond my capabilities to translate Shiv Kumar's poetry into another
language and do it justice. Hopefully, someone more qualified will take
up the challenge:
NainiiN ohde, chet the aathan
ate zulfiiN saavan chhaya
hothaaN de vicch katte daa koyi
diuhN chhaRhan te aya
nii meN vaari jaaN
saahvaaN de vicch, phul soyaN de
kise bagh chanan da laya
dehii de vicch khede chetar
itraaN naal nuhaya
nii meN vaari jaaN
bolaaN de vicch, paun pure dii
nii oh koyilaaN da hamsaya
chhitte dand jiyoN dhaanoN baglaa
taRiiaaN maar uDaayaa
nii meN vaari jaaN
ish'ke da ik palangh nuaarii
asaaN chaananiaN vicch dahya
tan di chaadar ho gayi mailii
us paer ja palanghey paya
nii meN vaari jaaN
dukkhan mere nainaaN de koey
vicch haRh hanjhooaN da aya
saari raat gayi vicch sochaaN
us ih kii zulam kamayia
nii meN vaari jaaN
subha-savere, lai nii vatnaa
asaaN mal mal Os nahaaya
dehii vicchoN nikalan chingaaN
te saada hath gaya kumlaya
nii meN vaari jaaN
choori kuttaN te uh khaaNdaa naahiN
uhnooN dil daa maas khwaaya
ik udaari aisii maarii
oh muR vatniiN naN aya
nii meN vaari jaaN
maae! nii maae!
meN ik shikraa yaar b'naaya
ohde sir te kalghi
te ohde periiN jhanjar
te oh chOg chugiiNda aya
nii meN vaari jaaN.
With respect,
Umang Bali
aap ka bahut bahut shukriya huzoor...mera khayaal Theek hi tha, aap ke post
kiye stanzas mein se teen maine pehlae kabi nahin paDe....Batalvi sahib ke
andaaz-e-bayaaN mein jo taRapti si miThaas hai...vo hi unki waheed pehchaan
hai...
on a side note. hindi/urdu ko roman script mein likhna kahaN aasaan tha, aur
Punjabi....ye to us se bhi mushkil kaam lagta hai..khair, aik baar phir aap
ka bhaut bahut shkukriya...
Sincerely,
Umang
Ali Minai Sahib, agar aap ki tawajjoh ab bhi is series par bar-qaraar hai,
to main in teen naye stanzas ka tarjumah karne ki koshish kar sakta huN,
agar Vijay Kumar sahib na karna chahaiN to....magar, Raj sahib, kahaN hain
aap?
aap ki tashreeh sun kar to maza aa jaa.ye ga....
Ali Minai
Umang Bali <uma...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
>
>Ali Minai Sahib, agar aap ki tawajjoh ab bhi is series par bar-qaraar hai,
>to main in teen naye stanzas ka tarjumah karne ki koshish kar sakta huN,
>agar Vijay Kumar sahib na karna chahaiN to....magar, Raj sahib, kahaN hain
>aap?
>aap ki tashreeh sun kar to maza aa jaa.ye ga....
That would be great, and may help move Raj Kumar Sahib into tashreeh mode:-).
Thanks much,
Ali
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHarh-e GHam tO muKHtasar hOtI gayI us kE huzUr;
harf jO lab tak na AyA dAstAN bantA gayA. Majrooh Sultanpuri
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Ali Minai
vijay...@my-deja.com
>
> aap ka bahut bahut shukriya huzoor...mera khayaal Theek hi tha, aap
ke post
> kiye stanzas mein se teen maine pehlae kabi nahin paDe....Batalvi
sahib ke
> andaaz-e-bayaaN mein jo taRapti si miThaas hai...vo hi unki waheed
pehchaan
> hai...
>
> on a side note. hindi/urdu ko roman script mein likhna kahaN aasaan
tha, aur
> Punjabi....ye to us se bhi mushkil kaam lagta hai..khair, aik baar
phir aap
> ka bhaut bahut shkukriya...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Umang
>
hai,
> to main in teen naye stanzas ka tarjumah karne ki koshish kar sakta
huN,
> agar Vijay Kumar sahib na karna chahaiN to....magar, Raj sahib, kahaN
hain
> aap?
> aap ki tashreeh sun kar to maza aa jaa.ye ga....
>
> >
> >
> > ate zulfiiN saavan chhaya
> > hothaaN de vicch katte daa koyi
> > diuhN chhaRhan te aya
> > nii meN vaari jaaN
> >
> > saahvaaN de vicch, phul soyaN de
> > kise bagh chanan da laya
> > dehii de vicch khede chetar
> > itraaN naal nuhaya
> > nii meN vaari jaaN
> >
> > bolaaN de vicch, paun pure dii
> > nii oh koyilaaN da hamsaya
> > chhitte dand jiyoN dhaanoN baglaa
> > taRiiaaN maar uDaayaa
> > nii meN vaari jaaN
> >
Umang Bali Sahib,
I think it will bw wonderful if you or Raj Kumar Sahib were to attempt
a translation of this geet in English or Urdu. I agree that
transcribing Punjabi in English is quite difficult. The first line in
the first stanza above should read:
NainiiN ohde chet 'di' aathan
rpat...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca
Umang Bali wrote:
> Ali Minai Sahib, agar aap ki tawajjoh ab bhi is series par bar-qaraar hai,
> to main in teen naye stanzas ka tarjumah karne ki koshish kar sakta huN,
> agar Vijay Kumar sahib na karna chahaiN to....magar, Raj sahib, kahaN hain
> aap?
> aap ki tashreeh sun kar to maza aa jaa.ye ga....
>
Umang Sahib:
mere khayaal meiN to yeh kaam agar aap hi kar deN to achhchha rahe ga, kiyoon-ke
mere zehn mein is vaqt kuchh aur hi tasavuraat raqs-farmaa haiN. vaise bhi,
meri specialization to Urdu ka tarjuma Urdu hi meiN karne ki hai; aek zabaan ki
shaa'iri ko doosri zabaan meiN dhaalna mujhe to be-had mushkil lagta hai.
albatta aap ki kaavish par tanqeed karne ka lutf zaroor uthaaooN ga!
:-))
khair-andesh, Raj Kumar
Umang Bali
in iqtibas ka tarjuma karna to bahut hi mushkil kaam hai...main samajhta
huN ki agar in stanzas ka matlab samjhane ki koshish ki jaaye to behtar
hoga...khair, meri kaavish haazir hai, aap sab ki tanqeed ke liye....
vijay...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > NainiiN ohde, chet di aathan
> > > ate zulfiiN saavan chhaya
> > > hothaaN de vicch katte daa koyi
> > > diuhN chaRhan te aya
> > > nii meN vaari jaaN
aaNkheN uski, shaam chet ki [chet ke mahinae ki shaam.aiN, aur mahinoN
ke muqabilae, sab se khoobsurat hoti
hain. Aur chet ka
mahina fagun aur vaisaakh ke beech ka vaqt hai]
zulfoN peh saavan chhaaya
laboN pe jaise kattak ka koi [kattak ka mahina deepavali ke aas-paas
ka sa vaqt hai, jis mahinae ka chaDta suraj
bahut hi man-mohak maana
jaata hai]
shams chaRne ko aaya
pehle do misroN mein jo tashbeeh pesh hain, unka zikr mukhtalif andaaz
mein, bahut si zabanoN ki shaayri mein maujood hai...magar, akhiri do
misroN ki dilkashi kuchh alag si hai....
>
> > >
> > > saahvaaN de vicch, phul soyaN de
> > > kise bagh chanan da laya
> > > dehii de vicch khede chetar
> > > itraaN naal nuhaya
> > > nii meN vaari jaaN
> > >
saaNsoN mein kuchh phool soyaN ke [soyaN, aik tarh ka phool, jis ke
mehak pur-kashish hoti hai]
baagh chaandni ka sa lagaaya
badan ka har hansta zarae ho
itroN mein nahaaya
>
> > > bolaaN de vicch, paun pure dii
> > > nii oh koyilaaN da hamsaya
> > > chhitte dand jiyoN dhaanoN baglaa
> > > taRiiaaN maar uDaayaa
> > > nii meN vaari jaaN
> > >
>
hai taqreer hawaa purab ki
vo koyaloN ka hamsaaya
safed daaNt, jaise dhaan se baglaa
taaliyaN bajaa uRaaya
in misroN ko paDte vaqt ye dhyaan rahe ki jis mahaul ka bayaan in misroN
mein maujood hai, us mein zikr hai:
purab ki hawa ka jo bahut ki chanchal hoti hai, aur masti se labrez...
koyal, jo parindoN mein sab se surili chiRiya mani jaati hai. koyal ke
bolne ka vaqt tab aata hai jab aam ke peRoN par baur chhaaya hota hai
baglaa: (I suppose in english would be crane, or stork) Dhaan ke khaet
pani se bhare hote hain, jin mein choTi-choTi machhliyaN bhi hua karti
hain, aur isi liye in mein bagulae bhi hote hain. aakhri do misroN mein jo
tasveer khiNchi gai hai, us ka mukammal ehsaas tabhi ho sakta hai jab kisi
ne achaanak kisi bagulae ko uRa kar dekha ho...basically, it takes off in a
flash of white...and hence the imagery
>
> Umang Bali Sahib,
> I think it will bw wonderful if you or Raj Kumar Sahib were to attempt
> a translation of this geet in English or Urdu. I agree that
> transcribing Punjabi in English is quite difficult. The first line in
> the first stanza above should read:
> NainiiN ohde chet 'di' aathan
>
> Vijay Kumar
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
umeed hai ki ye koshish aap ko pasand aayegi....ab bari hai ustadoN ke
tanqid karne ki....Once again, i've just try to convey the meanings, rather
than translate the stanzas...
Regards,
Umang
Ali Minai
Umang Bali <uma...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
>Vijay Kumar Sahib,
>
>in iqtibas ka tarjuma karna to bahut hi mushkil kaam hai...main samajhta
>huN ki agar in stanzas ka matlab samjhane ki koshish ki jaaye to behtar
>hoga...khair, meri kaavish haazir hai, aap sab ki tanqeed ke liye....
Thank you very much for the great translation! It enhanced my enjoyment
of the poem significantly, especially by clarifying the allusions to
months which are not used in Urdu (or seldom used).
I think this is a wonderful poem. My familiarity with the Punjabi poetic
idiom is very superficial, but would I be correct in assuming that this
poem should (also) be read in a symbolic way, with the SHikrA serving
as a metaphor for the love (or lover) that has come and gone?
Ali
------------------------------------------------------------------------
laO SHam'-e haqIqat kI apnI hi jageh par haE;
fAnUs ki gardiSH sE kyA kyA nazar AtA haE! Asghar
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Ali Minai
vijay...@my-deja.com
Umang Bali <uma...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
> Vijay Kumar Sahib,
>
> in iqtibas ka tarjuma karna to bahut hi mushkil kaam hai...main
samajhta
> huN ki agar in stanzas ka matlab samjhane ki koshish ki jaaye to
behtar
> hoga...khair, meri kaavish haazir hai, aap sab ki tanqeed ke liye....
Umang Bali Sahib,
Congratulations and Bravo! You took a task I had called undoable and
made it look simple. The excellent template that you have provided
gives me the courage to give an interpretation to a couple of the lines
at variance to yours:
> NainiiN ohde, chet di aathan
"aaNkheN uski, shaam chet ki"
I think the word 'nainiiN' means 'in her eyes' so that 'chet kii shaam
uski aankhoN meN' would seem more appropriate.
>diuhN chaRhan te aya
"shams chaRne ko aaya" I think should should be 'din chaRne ko aaya'.
> kise bagh chanan da laya
"baagh chaandni ka sa lagaaya" I think the word chanan (or channan) is
the rustic way to say 'chandan', the fragrant tree, so the line
becomes "jaise chandan ka bagh lagaaya ho"
> dehii de vicch khede chetar
> itraaN naal nuhaya
"badan ka har hansta zarae ho
itroN mein nahaaya"
I am not sure here but would venture to guess that cheatar is again the
month of chet (between end of Winter and beginning of Spring) so that
the lines may mean:
'In her body is the playfulness of it'r perfumed chet'.
Umang Bali Sahib, you have captured the essence of the poem so well
that one is tempted to see more of this happen with other SK poems.
Remember, I happen to have complete works of SK:-)
With respect,
rpat...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca
Umang Bali wrote:
>
> umeed hai ki ye koshish aap ko pasand aayegi....ab baari hai ustadoN ke
> tanqid karne ki....Once again, i've just tried to convey the meanings, rather
>
> than translate the stanzas...
>
Umang Sahib:
Thank you very much for a task well done! We all know that a task of this sort
is, by no means, an easy one. So, our hats off to any one who ventures into
this arena and comes out alive and well! :-))
main ne jo "aap ki kaavish par tanqeed" karne ki baat kahi thi, voh koi va'ada
naheeN tha, sirf dhamki thi! mera maqsad, dar-asl, yeh tha ke (is dhamki ke dar
se) aap yeh kaam poori mehnat aur tan-dihi se kareN --- as you indeed have
done. So, my purpose is served and my tanqeed is done! :-))
magar, is zimn mein mujhe do-aek baateN kehni haiN:
1. Ali Minai Sahib has asked whether this poem should be read in symbolic terms
and, in particular, if the term 'shikra' is to be looked upon as a metaphor.
The answer to both these questions is: yes. The fact is that Shiv Kumar was a
'master of the metaphor' and this poem bears that fact out in ample measure.
For those who don't know this word, 'shikra' is a Hindi word (commonly used in
rural Punjabi) and it means precisely the same as the Persian word 'shikra(h)',
namely, a hawk, a falcon, etc. And the root of this word is 'shikaar', which
tells everything about the life-style of this bird. The metaphor is so perfect
here, for it refers to a lover who comes around in search of 'prey', finds
one, meddles with it, and then disappears!
One thing that has remained obscure in Guri's account as well as in Umang's is
the fact that in this composition, it is a love-struck daughter ( not a son)
that is confiding her thoughts in her mother; then, 'shikra' symbolizes a male
lover, and the whole poem is a beautiful rendering of the feelings of a female
that has been loved and left behind! The description of all the ornamentation
of the 'shikra' (including --- ohde sir di kalghi, ohde gal di gaani, even ohde
pairaaN di jhaaNjar) is quite typical of a male lover, as described elsewhere
by both Bulle Shah and Vaaris Shah.
I have mentioned this point for the reason that when a group of us heard Nusrat
Fateh Ali Khan sing "ni maiN jaana jogi de naal", everyone in the group was
mesmerized --- but about half of us didn't realize that it was a composition on
behalf of a female (in this case, Heer); they were wondering as to "why would
this guy like to go with a jogi"?
2. Vijay Sahib, in one of his posts, has praised Shiv Kumar quite rightly, but
has gone on to say that 'he will put him right at the top with Ghalib and
Shakespeare'. In my opinion, this is being too generous!
While S.K. was a poet of a very high calibre, his poetry does not possess that
muti-dimensional character and that unfathomable depth as Ghalib's did. In
general, if you happen to know the meanings of the difficult words in his poems
(which are many), his message comes out loud and clear. That mystique of
Ghalib's poetry is not there.
S.K's main themes are 'gham-e-aashiqi' and 'gham-e-zindagi', so his
subject-matter is closer to Meer and Firaq. His writings do possess the
'gudaaz' of Meer but they lack the 'aafaaqiyat' of Firaq. Moreover, S.K. deals
with emotions 'in the raw' and expresses them with great
intensity...........this deprives him of the 'nikhaar' that you find in Hasrat;
he does come closer to Faani though!
S.K. has certainly raised the level of the Punjabi ghazal by a considerable
amount; still it comes nowhere near the level attained by the (numerous)
masters of the Urdu ghazal.
Considering all these points, I would rank him very close to Mir Babar Ali
Anees Lakhnavi --- which, I think, is quite a fair compliment!
As regards English poetry, a straight comparison with Shakespeare seems out of
place to me. Although both S.K. and Sh. are writers of tragedy, I find it hard
to compare a lyricist with a dramatist! Perhaps a comparison with Keats would
be more appropriae, but how well S.K. would come out in that comparison is hard
for me to say.
Before closing, I would like to make it clear that I am not really criticizing
the categorisation given by Vijay Sahib; I am simply trying to be a bit more
rational here than some over-enthusiastic fans of S.K. have been. If some truly
serious reviewers of poetry have indeed suggested that S.K. deserves a place
right there where Ghalib and Shakespeare are, I would very much like to know
the basis of their reasoning.
khair-andesh, Raj Kumar
Ali Minai
<rpat...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>....
>1. Ali Minai Sahib has asked whether this poem should be read in symbolic terms
>and, in particular, if the term 'shikra' is to be looked upon as a metaphor.
>The answer to both these questions is: yes. The fact is that Shiv Kumar was a
>'master of the metaphor' and this poem bears that fact out in ample measure.
Raj Kumar Sahib, many thanks for your great response to me query.
>2. Vijay Sahib, in one of his posts, has praised Shiv Kumar quite rightly, but
>has gone on to say that 'he will put him right at the top with Ghalib and
>Shakespeare'. In my opinion, this is being too generous!
>....
Though all such statements are inherently subjective, and, therefore,
inherently impervious to logic, I cannot resist my own very subjective
comment.
First, I have not read Shiv Kumar, and cannot say anything about his calibre.
As Raj Kumar Sahib points out, Ghalib and Shakespeare cannot be fairly
compared, since each showed their genius in a different field. Still, they
share one crucial trait: Each saw into the human psyche with miraculous
depth. Many poets --- most poets, perhaps --- explore the human condition,
but very, very few hit the notes just right in their expression. Ghalib,
IMO, is incomparable in Urdu because he combined psychological perceptiveness,
depth of thought, and universality. Mir matches him in psychological
intuition, Fani and Iqbal approach him in depth of thought, and Iqbal
(perhaps Firaq too) has great universality, but Ghalib had them all in
the best combination.
As for Shakespeare, I know I will receive flames for saying this, but
Shakespeare is beyond comparison. Instead of using my words, I'll just
repeat what Iqbal said about Shakespeare:
hifz-e asrAr ka fitrat ko hae saOdA aEsA,
rAzdAN phir na karE gI koyi paEdA aEsA!
Ali Minai
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
fikr-e insAN par terI hastI se yE raOSHan huA:
haE par-E murGH-E taKHayyul kI rasAyI tA-kujA! Iqbal (on Ghalib)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Ali Minai
vijay...@my-deja.com
>
> >
> > umeed hai ki ye koshish aap ko pasand aayegi....ab baari hai
ustadoN ke
> > tanqid karne ki....Once again, i've just tried to convey the
meanings, rather
> >
> > than translate the stanzas...
> >
>
> Umang Sahib:
>
> Thank you very much for a task well done! We all know that a task of
this sort
> is, by no means, an easy one. So, our hats off to any one who
ventures into
> this arena and comes out alive and well! :-))
>
> main ne jo "aap ki kaavish par tanqeed" karne ki baat kahi thi, voh
koi va'ada
> naheeN tha, sirf dhamki thi! mera maqsad, dar-asl, yeh tha ke (is
dhamki ke dar
> se) aap yeh kaam poori mehnat aur tan-dihi se kareN --- as you indeed
have
> done. So, my purpose is served and my tanqeed is done! :-))
>
> magar, is zimn mein mujhe do-aek baateN kehni haiN:
>
symbolic terms
> and, in particular, if the term 'shikra' is to be looked upon as a
metaphor.
> The answer to both these questions is: yes. The fact is that Shiv
Kumar was a
> 'master of the metaphor' and this poem bears that fact out in ample
measure.
>
rightly, but
> has gone on to say that 'he will put him right at the top with Ghalib
and
> Shakespeare'. In my opinion, this is being too generous!
>
Raj Kumar Sahib,
Thanks for your, as always, erudite comments. I compared SK to Ghalib
and Shakespeare more in the degree to which he has contributed to the
language of Panjabi (rather than a, meningless, literal comparison). I
can't think of anyother Panjabi writer who has enriched the language,
its idiom and the use of metaphor more. SK is also unique in frequently
incorporating words from Urdu and Hindi and giving them an unmistakable
Panjabi tinge i.e. they, more or less, become 'of' Panjabi.
Having said this, comparison to Shakesperean use of metaphor may not be
all that inapt. I feel (and only personally) that SK will compare
favorably to, say, :
"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day" or
"Yon Cassius, lean and hungry looking, he thinks too much, such men are
dangerous" or
".. the greeen eyed monster, that doth mock the meat it feeds on" or
".. that who filches from me my good name, takes away that enriches him
not; And leaves me poorer than a bondsman".
Take, as an example, the follwoing few lines from 'aatey diaan
chiRyaaN':
'too sun te sahii
tund havaavaN di aavaaz,
kinnii mitthi ate nyaari hai
jiiknaN ziddi kisy nyaaney neN
aa ke gussey de vicch sane choorii
keNh di kauli vagaah ke maarii hai'
"Come and listen to sound of the swifts winds ( of the hills) how sweet
and unique; As if (and marvel at the metaphor) a stubborn little one,
in a fit of explosive anger, has thrown his choori vaalii kauli (a
meatallic, usually copper, small bowl) with force aginst the brick
wall." (Umang Bali Sahib, please provide a more apt interpretation)
And here is an example of his use of an Urdu word (made Panjabiesque):
meN daanishvaraaN suniiNdiaaN sang, kai vaari ucchi bol pya
kujh maan sii menuN ishaqe da, kujh daava bhi sii piiRaaN da.
I think 'daanishvaraaN' is exquisite. But how about 'suniiNdiaN sang'?
With them and listening to them. Totally unique for Panjabi. And now
the meaning:
"Many a time, while with them and listening to the intellectuals, I
raised my voice. I could dare do so because I was proud of my
experiences (?unfruitful) with ishaq and in part because I had
considerable calim to anguish and suffering."
He is stating that his emotional experiences are no less worthy than
the cognitive abilities of the intellectuals.
The content of most of his poetry is likely closer to, as Raj KUmar
Sahib has suggested, Keats, Or as I feel, Shelley. The ethos and
soulfullness of his work is akin to:
O! lift me as a wave, a leaf, a cloud,
I fall on the thorns of life, I bleed.
I could go on, but feel that this being an URDU forum, further
discussion should occur by PM.
Umang Bali
ye kaavish aap sab ko pasand aayi...dhan bhaag....
Ali Minai sahib, aap ke sawalaat ke jawaab Raj Sahib ne ba-khubhi de diye
hain...aur is mein aik baat aur joDta chaluN, vo ye ki Shiv Kumar Batalvi
sahib ki khaasiyat unka tashbeeh karne ka makhsoos andaaz hai....main Raj
sahib ke afkaar se sehmat huN, khaas kar is khayaal se ki Batalvi sahib ki
shayri mein "raw emotion" maujood hai...After all this is grass roots
poetry, where the comparisons/metaphors/similies are governed more by the
experiences obtained in a natural environment, which then manifests itself
in the poetry. For example look at the comparisons to the stork in a rice
field....Brilliant! but to someone who is not familiar with it. It might
sound rural, in a way...but then again most of the punjabi poetry that I've
come across packs a good punch because of the fact that it is so natural,
and earthy....Not to say that these poets didn't let go of mental barriers
either....What I mean is that for example the starting verse of Waris
Shah's epic, Heer goes along the lines of:
mel roohaN de azal de roz hoye
te sach'chae ishq di kiyuN taameer hoi
phul khid gaye paak mohob'bataN de
te ik Ranjha hoya, ik Heer hoi
The thoughts of pre-determined destiny, are conveyed in such an earthy(for
lack of a better word) manner...
Vijay Kumar sahib,
aap ke sare comments jaiz hain janaab...I think they convey the meaning
even better....thank you.....
One thing is for sure, it is a bonus that you have the complete works of
Shiv Kumar shaib...Is this his book entitled "loona" that won him the
Sahitya Academy Award?
But as far as further translations go, i'm going to have to respectfully
decline....I gave quite a good thought to Raj sahib's comments about this
whole translation business, and sad to say, I might have gotten lucky this
time, but I would not want to compromise the beauty of any of Shiv Sahib's
verses...They really are gems to be treasured....But I'd really like to get
my hands on the full works of Shiv sahib....Would you happen to know if his
books have been published in any other script, than Punjabi, I mean either
in Urdu, or Hindi?
Sincerely,
Umang
Umang Bali
vijay...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Raj Kumar Sahib,
>
> Take, as an example, the follwoing few lines from 'aatey diaan
> chiRyaaN':
>
> 'too sun te sahii
> tund havaavaN di aavaaz,
> kinnii mitthi ate nyaari hai
> jiiknaN ziddi kisy nyaaney neN
> aa ke gussey de vicch sane choorii
> keNh di kauli vagaah ke maarii hai'
>
> "Come and listen to sound of the swifts winds ( of the hills) how sweet
> and unique; As if (and marvel at the metaphor) a stubborn little one,
> in a fit of explosive anger, has thrown his choori vaalii kauli (a
> meatallic, usually copper, small bowl) with force aginst the brick
> wall." (Umang Bali Sahib, please provide a more apt interpretation)
Once again this is another one of the many instances in which Shiv Sahib
amazes the reader with his metaphors...I have often heard/read Shiv Kumar
Sahib, referred to as Birha da Sultan, but from the writing point of view I
think its more appropriate to call him, alankaar da baadshah....Vijay Kumar
Shaib, I think you've explained this very well, I can't think of any other
way of putting it, short of explaing it in Punjabi :)) But what an
imagery!!! Brilliant!! again just so earthy, and natural in it's feel that
one has to take it to heart....
>
>
> And here is an example of his use of an Urdu word (made Panjabiesque):
>
> meN daanishvaraaN suniiNdiaaN sang, kai vaari ucchi bol pya
> kujh maan sii menuN ishaqe da, kujh daava bhi sii piiRaaN da.
>
So true. These lines pretty much explain his personality, and his
life...especially the second line,
ishqe da maan, te piiRaN da daava....
>
>
> With respect,
>
> Vijay Kumar
>
Regards,
Umang
U.V. Ravindra
vijay...@my-deja.com writes:
<deletia>
> The content of most of his poetry is likely closer to, as Raj KUmar
> Sahib has suggested, Keats, Or as I feel, Shelley. The ethos and
> soulfullness of his work is akin to:
>
> O! lift me as a wave, a leaf, a cloud,
> I fall on the thorns of life, I bleed.
>
> I could go on, but feel that this being an URDU forum, further
> discussion should occur by PM.
Au contraire, Vijay Kumar sahib, I would like to formally register
my request for keeping this discussion on ALUP.
What a fascinating discussion this has been! I can claim only
a passing familiarity with the Punjabi language, and none whatsoever
with its poetry, but I have nonetheless learnt a lot from this
thread. Taking it off ALUP will leave interested but passive
bystanders like me completely in the lurch.
I *do* understand that this is AL*Urdu*P, and your recommendation
to continue this thread on private mail is completely justified.
So, if the discussion is indeed taken off of ALUP, please do
include me in the Cc: list of all e-mails on this topic.
--
Ravindra.
> With respect,
>
> Vijay Kumar
vijay...@my-deja.com
Would you happen to know if his
> books have been published in any other script, than Punjabi, I mean
either
> in Urdu, or Hindi?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Umang
Umang Bali Sahib,
The book I have is titled simply "Shiv Kumar" and is published in
Gurmakhi script by Lahore Book Shop, Ludhiana. It has a poem as a
foreword by the then Education Secreatary for Panjab, S. Manmohan
Singh. His foreword is titled "Ik geet di maut".
Loona is part of the compilation, rest is all what he ever wrote;
ghazals, nazams, geets and folk songs. I am not aware of its existance
in anyother script.
Respectfully,
karac...@my-deja.com
>
I do understand that this is AL*Urdu*P, and your
recommendation to continue this thread on private mail is
completely justified. So, if the discussion is indeed taken off of
ALUP, please do include me in the Cc: list of all e-mails on this
topic.
Dear Alupers please be kind include me too !!
Shukriya
In article <9l74sjd...@usa.net>,
u...@usa.net (U.V. Ravindra) wrote:
>
> vijay...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> <deletia>
>
> > The content of most of his poetry is likely closer to, as Raj KUmar
> > Sahib has suggested, Keats, Or as I feel, Shelley. The ethos and
> > soulfullness of his work is akin to:
> >
> > O! lift me as a wave, a leaf, a cloud,
> > I fall on the thorns of life, I bleed.
> >
> > I could go on, but feel that this being an URDU forum, further
> > discussion should occur by PM.
>
> Au contraire, Vijay Kumar sahib, I would like to formally register
> my request for keeping this discussion on ALUP.
>
> What a fascinating discussion this has been! I can claim only
> a passing familiarity with the Punjabi language, and none whatsoever
> with its poetry, but I have nonetheless learnt a lot from this
> thread. Taking it off ALUP will leave interested but passive
> bystanders like me completely in the lurch.
>
> I *do* understand that this is AL*Urdu*P, and your recommendation
> to continue this thread on private mail is completely justified.
> So, if the discussion is indeed taken off of ALUP, please do
> include me in the Cc: list of all e-mails on this topic.
>
> --
> Ravindra.
>
Jay Shergill
>
> Au contraire, Vijay Kumar sahib, I would like to formally register
> my request for keeping this discussion on ALUP.
>
> What a fascinating discussion this has been! I can claim only
> a passing familiarity with the Punjabi language, and none whatsoever
> with its poetry, but I have nonetheless learnt a lot from this
> thread. Taking it off ALUP will leave interested but passive
> bystanders like me completely in the lurch.
>
> I *do* understand that this is AL*Urdu*P, and your recommendation
> to continue this thread on private mail is completely justified.
> So, if the discussion is indeed taken off of ALUP, please do
> include me in the Cc: list of all e-mails on this topic.
>
> --
> Ravindra.
I respectfully request to be included in the list of recipients of e-
mail regarding this thread, if infact this discussion goes off ALUP.
Thank you,
with regards,
Jay Shergill
Vijay S. Bajwa
>
>
> I have mentioned this point for the reason that when a group of us heard Nusrat
> Fateh Ali Khan sing "ni maiN jaana jogi de naal", everyone in the group was
> mesmerized --- but about half of us didn't realize that it was a composition on
> behalf of a female (in this case, Heer); they were wondering as to "why would
> this guy like to go with a jogi"?
Seems odd why this interpretation should be missed, being that Heer
used to meet Ranjha, who used to come to her house in the guise of
a Jogi, aided and abetted by Saida's sister. The theme of Jogi is as
familiar in Punjabi folklore as, maybe bulbul/gul is in classical
Urdu poetry.
Also unique to Punjabi poetry is it female personification of a
lover's pain. Which is why I find Parveen Shakir's poetry to be
so emotive.
--
Vijay S. Bajwa
vijay...@my-deja.com
> Also unique to Punjabi poetry is it female personification of a
> lover's pain. Which is why I find Parveen Shakir's poetry to be
> so emotive.
>
> --
> Vijay S. Bajwa
I would like to add that the other give away is the use of the word 'nii' or
'niiN' which is ,if not invariably, very often used to address a
female/females by a female. viz. Maaey nii maey Phooko niiN hun liir patole
nii meN jaana jogi de naal dekh layyiaN mawaN nii meN dhalanhaar chhavaN aao
saiio ral deo nii vadhaii nii meN kamli haaN etc.
Vijay Kumar
Raj Kumar Pathria
>
> rpat...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > I have mentioned this point for the reason that when a group of us heard Nusrat
> > Fateh Ali Khan sing "ni maiN jaana jogi de naal", everyone in the group was
> > mesmerized --- but about half of us didn't realize that it was a composition on
> > behalf of a female (in this case, Heer); they were wondering as to "why would
> > this guy like to go with a jogi"?
>
> Seems odd why this interpretation should be missed, being that Heer
> used to meet Ranjha, who used to come to her house in the guise of
> a Jogi, aided and abetted by Saida's sister. The theme of Jogi is as
> Urdu poetry.
Yes, indeed, it seems odd --- especially when I tell you that the people
I was referring to are all Punjabis!
The difference, though, is that these people have been raised in large
cities; they aren't 'dehaatis' (or, shall I say, 'peindoos') like me
who, on the whole, happen to be far more aware of the native folklore
than the so-called 'shaihris' are! And, in this particular case, the
cities where they have been raised are all outside Punjab --- Simla,
Karnal and Delhi, to be definite. Moreover, while their mother tongue is
Punjabi and their whole social structure revolves around the Punjabi
language, their households have no idea whatsoever as to what the
literary heritage of their language is. You referred to Saida's sister;
I bet they have never heard of those folks. Would they know who Choochak
was, I wonder?
IMO, it is a pity!
The other day Umang Bali Sahib referred to Shiv Batalvi's book "Loona",
which, we were told, was cited as THE work for which SK received the
Sahitya Academy award. I wonder how many of my friends (a majority of
whom are Punjabis) would know who Loona was. I am going to survey my
circle of friends to find this out and will let you know of the results.
I'll be glad if this query could at least evoke a reference to 'Pooran
Bhagat' in any form whatsoever. Those who know that much will face the
next question, "who, do you think, wrote that episode in verse and made
it a legend"?
> Also unique to Punjabi poetry is its female personification of a
> lover's pain. Which is why I find Parveen Shakir's poetry to be
> so emotive.
While this feature is quite prevalent in Punjabi poetry, it is not
unique to this language. Hindi folklore is brimming with it ---
especially because of that charming 'nat-khat' from Mathura. You know
how much and how well Mira has written in this vein. Hats off to her!
This style of narration is quite prevalent in Sindhi too; may be, that
has had some influence on the writings of Parveen Shakir. You must be
remembering that captivating song 'mast qalandar', made memorable by an
equally captivating singer Roona Laila. That composition is again
female-based --- but, in that case, most people had no difficulty
realizing this fact (especially because the singer herself was a
female). However, in the case that started the present discussion, the
singer was a larger-than-life male --- which might have contributed to
the confusion. :-))
Well, let me end with a thoughtful note:
maiN yeh naghme gaata gaata kitni door nikal aaya
ab kaa'inaat ki har sar'had nazroN se chhupti jaati hai (Firaq)
khair-andesh, Raj Kumar