Fariduddin “Attaar” ki eik nazm kaa Urdu tarjumaa

[B.G. M.]


Dosto

, an maiN eik Ghair-ma’amuuli nazm kaa toHfaa aap ke Huzuur pesh kar rahaa huuN. 

 

Fariduddin “Attaar” was a 12th century Persian poet from Nishapur, in present day Iran.

He was an elder contemporary of Maulaana Rumi (RA). 
He had an immense and lasting influence on Persian poetry.


un ki eik nazm kaa angrezi tarjumaa kuChh haftay qabl meri nazar se guzraa aur mujhe be-Had pasand aayaa.
woh tarjumaa yeh thaa:
_________________________


Young and old are alike in love
 Loss and profit are the same in love
 All the colors of the world are the same in love
 Spring and autumn are the same in love
 The high and the low are the same in love
 Earth and heaven are one in love
 The place of love is a circle
 Every point on it is the same
Lover’s endearment and anguish are the same
 In the tradition of love, death and eternity are the same

 ~Fariduddin Attaar
_____________________
 
 jab maiN ne hamaare apne “resident expert” shaa’ir moHtaram Raj Kumar saahab se is nazm ka zikr kiyaa to unhoN ne fauran mujhe Ahmad Faraz ka yeh she’r sunaaya:

   
  
    "Miir-o-Ghaalib kyaa kih ban paaye nahiiN Faiz-o-Firaaq
       
  zo'am yeh thaa, Ruumii-o-Attaar ban jaayeN ge ham"!
 

  
yeh she’r sun kar mujhe samajh meN aaaya kih Fariduddin “Attaar” ka shaa’irii martaba kyaa hai.
.

baatoN baatoN meN maiN ne jab kahaa kih kaash is nazm ka manzuum Urdu tarjumaa ho jaaye to kyaa baat hai! 
thoRa soch kar, Raj Kumar Saahab ne yeh challenge qubuul kar hi liyaa.



maiN aaj R K “Qais” saahab ka manzuum tarjumaa, jo eik shaahkaar nazm ki shakl meN mausuul hu’aa hai, aap ke saamne rakhte hu’e faKhr maHsuus kar rahaa huuN.

mujhe aap sab ki raaye ka intezaar rahe ga.
 
B.G.M.


===============================
 
 
Urdu translation by Raj Kumar ‘Qais’
 
javaanii ho, buRhaapaa ho
ziyaaN ho, suud ho, yaa phir
shafaq ke raNg hoN, qaus-e-qazaH ke hoN kih phuuloN ke 
moHabbat ke liye yeh sab manaazir eik jaise haiN!
 
bahaareN hoN, Khizaa’eN hoN
zameeN ho yaa falak ho 
samaNdar par nisheb aaye, faraaz aaye
ta’alluq meN bigaaR aaye, nikhaar aaye
moHabbat ke liye yeh sab maraaHil eik jaise haiN!
 
moHabbat ghuumtii hai to faqat ik daa’ire hi meN
kih jis ke ain markaz par kisii “maKhsuus hastii” kaa baseraa hai
nah un dono meN duurii hai, nah nazdeekii
hamesha eik saa hai faasila un meN
tabhii to lutf bhi un kaa sitam ke ain yaksaaN hai
moHabbat ke liye yeh sab maraatib eik jaise haiN!
 
tabhii to eik daanish-war ka kahnaa hai
“moHabbat meN nahiiN hai farq jeene aur marne kaa”
nah dunyaa kaa, nah ‘uqbaa kaa
nah baaqii kaa, nah faanii kaa
kih jab insaan par jazb-e-moHabbat kaa tasallut ho 
to us ki aaNkh meN saare manaazir eik jaise haiN!
maraaHil eik jaisee haiN!!
maraatib eik jaise haiN!!!

==================================
 p.s.
maiN sochtaa thaa kih mazkurah nazm ki asl Persian shakl jo mil jaaye to usay bhi yahaaN saath saath chaspaan kar duuN, magar...kuChh koshish ke baavajuud, maiN yeh nahiiN kar paayaa kyuuN kih meri rasaa’ii Persian literature tak nahiiN hai.
( kyaa ko’ii aur ALUPer is meN meri madad kar sakegaa ? )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Afzal A. Khan]

B.G.M. Saheb,

First, please tell us whee you have been all these days.
As they say, long time, no see.

Right now, I can only answer your last question........

You seem to have forgotten our worthy friend --- who else, but
Naseer Saheb !!


Afzal

[Naseer]

BGM SaaHib, aadaab.

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 02:42:09 UTC+1, B.G. M. wrote:
> 
Dosto

, an maiN eik Ghair-ma’amuuli nazm kaa toHfaa aap ke Huzuur pesh kar rahaa huuN.
>
> 

Fariduddin “Attaar” was a 12th century Persian poet from Nishapur, in present day Iran.

> He was an elder contemporary of Maulaana Rumi (RA).
> He had an immense and lasting influence on Persian poetry.


> un ki eik nazm kaa angrezi tarjumaa kuChh haftay qabl meri nazar se guzraa aur mujhe be-Had pasand aayaa.
> woh tarjumaa yeh thaa:
> _________________________
>
> 
Young and old are alike in love
> Loss and profit are the same in love
> All the colors of the world are the same in love
> Spring and autumn are the same in love
> The high and the low are the same in love
> Earth and heaven are one in love
> The place of love is a circle
> Every point on it is the same
> Lover’s endearment and anguish are the same
> In the tradition of love, death and eternity are the same
>
> ~Fariduddin Attaar
> _____________________

What's the source of your English translation please? Does the author mention the name of 'Attaar's Persian work from which s/he has taken this piece?

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 9:23:00 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

BGM sahib,

Thanks a lot for this post.

RK sahib,

This time I am truly at a loss for words. Touched to the point of speechlessness!

waah waah waah!

Of Course Attaar is Attar, lekin hamaare 'Qais' sahib bhii kuChh kam nahhiiN.

Honestly, I want to say that this may be your best nazm ever, absolutely brilliant. I wouldn't call it a translation, may be the original is an inspiration, but you have created a classic in its own right.

ek baat aur, aap kii is nazm ko paRhte paRhte mujhe Amjad Islam Amjab sahib kii besaaKhtaa yaad aa rahii thii. aap jaante haiN k hamaare dost Amjad sahib ko muhabbat kii nazmoN ke betaaj baadshah maanaa jaata hai, lekin aap kii yeh nazm bhii usii 'league' meiN hai. kya Khayaalaat haiN, kya ravaani hai! kya baat hai RK sahib. Simply breathtaking.

Thanks for writing this nazm, I will cherish it forever.

Khuda aap ko salaamat rakhe,

____Zoya

[Irfan Abid]

BGM sb, aadaab arz hai!

Attaar kii nazm kaa jo English tarjuma aap ne inaayat farmaayaa hai, vuh to Khuub hai hii, lekin RK sb kaa Urdu tarjuma to Khuub se bhii Khuub-tar hai. waah, bahut umdah! yih nagiina hameN faraaham karne kaa bahut bahut shukriya!

niyaazmand,
Irfan :Abid:

[B.G. M.]

MoHtaran Janaab Naseer Saahab!
Aadaab va Salaam-e-muHabbat!

Mujhe yaqeenan m’aaluum hai kih yeh aap ke hi bas ki baat hai, magar kyaa karuuN, Angrezi tarjumaa jahaaN pehle pehal dekhaa thaa woh “source” to ab mujhe bhi Theek we yaad nahiiN.
Shaayad eik vernacular news paper ki eik column thii.. jo Gujarati zabaaN meN thii, aur jahaaN tak mujhe yaad paRtaa hai, writer ne is Angrezii tarjumaa kaa Gujarati meN translate bhi kiyaa thaa. Puurii koshish ke baa-vajuud abhii tak to mujhe woh “source” mil nahiiN rahaa😔😔😔

I will keep looking, but ab ummeed kam hai.😔

~Khair-andesh .....

==================B G ===================

[Naseer]

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 02:42:09 UTC+1, B.G. M. wrote:

B.G.M SaaHib, aadaab.

buzurg aur javaaN, 3ishq meN baraabar
naf3 aur nuqsaaN, 3ishq meN yak-saaN

rang-haa-i-jahaaN, 3ishq meN baraabar
bahaar aur xizaaN, 3ishq meN yak-saaN

zer-o-zabar-dastaaN, 3ishq meN baraabar
zamiin-o-aasmaaN, 3ishq meN yak-saaN

jaa-i-3ishq, dauraaN; har nuqtah baraabar
uns-o-ranj-i-3aashiqaaN 3ishq meN yak-saaN

faanii-o-laa-faanii, rasm-i-3ishq meN baraabar
[anaaRii* aur peshavaraaN**, 3ishq meN yaksaaN!]

* Naseer

** Raj Kumar SaaHib and Irfan Abid SaaHib

Naseer

[nageshsahib]

Naseer Sahib:

I enjoyed reading this.

Nagesh

[Raj Kumar]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 8:33:33 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
>
> RK sahib,
>
> This time I am truly at a loss for words. Touched to the point of speechlessness!

***Zoya aur speechless? yeh maiN kyaa sun rahaa huuN? If this is really true, then I should be flying on the 9th cloud!***

> waah waah waah!

***shukriya, shukriya, shukriya.***

> Of Course Attaar is Attaar, lekin hamaare 'Qais' sahib bhii kuChh kam nahiiN.

***yeh to vuhi baat hu'ii k

Ghaalib-o-Miir-o-MusHafii
tum bhi Firaaq kam nahiiN!

No please, I am nowhere near the big ones!***

> Honestly, I want to say that this may be your best nazm ever, absolutely brilliant. I wouldn't call it a translation, may be the original is an inspiration, but you have created a classic in its own right.

***Thanks for the appreciation, Zoya sahiba. You may regard this nam as my best ever but I'll like to draw your attention to another nazm which I wrote, again as a translation suggested by BG sahib in 2011, entitled "eik aarzuu". You can easily locate it on ALUP and you may find it comparable to this one.***

> ek baat aur, aap kii is nazm ko paRhte paRhte mujhe Amjad Islam Amjab sahib kii besaaKhtaa yaad aa rahii thii. aap jaante haiN k hamaare dost Amjad sahib ko muhabbat kii nazmoN ke betaaj baadshah maanaa jaata hai, lekin aap kii yeh nazm bhii usii 'league' meiN hai. kya Khayaalaat haiN, kya ravaani hai! kya baat hai RK sahib. Simply breathtaking.

***Once again, kahaaN AIA sahib aur kahaaN maiN? However, if my composition has reminded you of that level of stuff, then I am left speechless. Now, don't say --- RK sahib aur speechless?***

>
> Thanks for writing this nazm, I will cherish it forever.

***navaazish, karam, shukriya, mehrbaanii***

> Khuda aap ko salaamat rakhe,
>

***mujhe ziNdagii kii du'aa dene vaale
haNsii aa rahii hai tirii saadagii par!

R.K.***

[Raj Kumar]

______________

***janaab Irfan sahib:

maiN aap ki jaanib se is nazm ki paziiraa'ii ke liye be-Hadd mamnuun huuN. aap chuuN-k Khud aek bartareen daraje ke shaa'ir haiN, is liye aap ki qadr-daani mere liye bahut baRii qeemat rakhti hai!

dilii shukriye ke saath,
Raj Kumar***

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 1:02:13 AM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Thanks for the appreciation, Zoya sahiba. You may regard this nam as my best ever but I'll like to draw your attention to another nazm which I wrote, again as a translation suggested by BG sahib in 2011, entitled "eik aarzuu". You can easily locate it on ALUP and you may find it comparable to this one.***

RK sahib,

I did check out 'eik aarzuu', you must have posted it during one of my extended absences from Alup. Excellent nazm, but I still like this one better.

And now I am really jealous, BGM sahib is inspiring these 'shahkaars'?! Really?!! I am almost tempted to find out what you may come up with if a "different Aluper" requested a nazm?! :-))

>
> > Khuda aap ko salaamat rakhe,
> >
> ***mujhe ziNdagii kii du'aa dene vaale
> haNsii aa rahii hai tirii saadagii par!
>
> R.K.

maiN to aisii dua'eN kartii rahuuNgii, Raj uncle. I am being selfish here, as I get older, I am really starting to realize how precious you are. Stay well and live loooooong.

_______Zoya

[Raj Kumar]

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 4:32:48 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:

______________

***janaab Naseer sahib:

agarche aap ne mere tarjame par apni raaye nahiiN bataa'ii, magar aap ki is kaavish se saaf vazeH hai k aap ne to "nahle pe dahla" maar Daala hai! :-)

samajh meN nahiiN aa rahaa k maiN aap ki is taKhleeq par kisi aek raNg ke phuul barsaa'uuN yaa k puuri ki puuri qaus-e-qazaH hi nichhaavar kar duuN. I think the latter will suit better here. :-)

aur yeh jo "maqt'e meN aa paRii hai *ajab dilbaraana* baat", voh zaraa mashkuuk si hai --- is liye k ishq ke maidaan meN anaaRii log aur peshavaraaN asHaab yaksaaN nahiiN hote, bal-k umuuman anaaRii log jiit jaate haiN aur peshavaraaN asHaab maat khaa jaate haiN. kam-az-kam Firaaq Gorakhpuri ka to yihii Khayaal hai; farmaate haiN

ishq ke khel meN maiN to, yaaro, jeetne vaalaa thaa --- lekin
aan paRii ik sha'e pyaade kii, h'uii yeh baazii maat kahaaN :-(

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

[Afzal A. Khan]

Maybe, the word is "Shaih" or "Sheh", instead of "sha'e".
In D. script, it would be written with a double maatra.

[Raj Kumar]

***This word is indeed written with a double maatra but there is no 'he' sound in it. In Urdu, it is written with 'sheen' and 'ye' only.

According to Platts, it is pronounced either shai or sha'e. I prefer sha'e because shai would be confused with the Arabic word which means a thing or an object, as in

agarche merii rasaa'ii se duur hai har shai
mirii nigaah ki zad meN zaruur hai ko'ii
[Qais]

R.K.***

[Naseer]

Raj Kumar aur Afzal SaaHibaan aadaab.

It seems that شَے शै is a corrupted form of شَہ.

H شي शै śai, śaʼe, vulg. saʼe (prob. a corr. of shai, or of shah) , s.f. (colloq.), Increase; incentive, incitement, instigation: — śaʼe denā (-ko), To incite, to instigate; — to loosen, relax; to give, yield.

Urdu LuGhat has this entry.

http://udb.gov.pk/result_details.php?word=129351

Its derivation is given as "shah kaa ek imlaa" and for usage, it provides an example from "tilism-i-hosh-rubaa" 1890

مفتی طلسم نے کہا آپ نے ایک نالائق کو ایسی شے کیوں دی۔

Raj Kumar SaaHib, isn't it "piyaadah" for a foot soldier?

Naseer

[Afzal A. Khan]

Mukarramee,

Actually, the discussion here involves the game of Chess ---
ShatraNj.

And the point at issue is the word "Shaih" or maybe "sheh"
which is the Urdu word for "Check" --- a term in chess.

The word "maat" is, f course, "Checkmate".

************

You have always "accused" me of having so many (or perhaps
'too' many !!) attributes.

So, please permit me to add one more........

In my time, I have also played Chess, of both types, i.e.
"be~zori" and "zori".

"Zori" here refers to 'support'. Or, to be more precise,
support of one chess piece to another.

It is a bit difficult to explain it for the uninitiated (which,
I think does not include ANY ALUPer). But, maybe, a few of the
lurkers may benefit........

When, for example, the Queen (Farzeen) is supported by a Rook
(Feel) or a Bishop (RuKH), an opponent cannot capture it ---
this is the "Zori" system. Let me add that it is rarely played
these days, if at all.

The much more popular system, that is played all over the world,
is the "Be~zori" system, where you can capture any piece of the
opponent, as per your game's requirement,

************

In my young(er) days, I used to closely follow the World Chess
Championship matches where Mikhail Botvinnik of Russia would
always end up the winner, right from the late forties to the
early sixties. And, most of the time, it would be another
Russian, Vassily Smyslov, who would end up as the loser.

************

To suffer a "checkmate" through a (lowly) pawn has always
been considered as something to be ashamed of.

************

The sher of Firaq Gorakhpuri, cited in a previous post,
refers to this Chess move ---> "Sheh" (i.e. "Check").
The sher also includes the word "maat", which is Checkmate.

************

A view has been expressed that, in Urdu, the word is written only
with a "sheen" and "ye", without an "h" at the end. I can only
say that I beg to differ.

************

In Urdu books that include scenes involving a game of chess, the
word is written as "Sheh". For instance, in "Fasaana-e-Azad",
serialized from 1878 to 1883, there are anecdotes describing
games of Chess being played by the Nawabs of Lucknow. The book
even included diagrams of these games. And the word in question
is always written with an "h" at the end; i.e. "Sheh".

************

So, as I said, let us agree to disagree.



Afzal

[Raj Kumar]

***janaab Naseer sahib:

Thanks for the elucidation on the word under discussion. As the above sentence from the famed work "tilism-e-hosh-rubaa" shows, there is nothing wrong in writing this word without the letter 'he' at the end.

As for the tone of its recitation, I do find a noticeable difference from the common word "shai" --- just as we find between the words ba'ad and baad. So, I may prefer to write it as sha'i rather than shai or sha'e, so that the zabar on sheen (which is equivalent to using a double maatra in the Devanaagari script) is duly taken care of.

Now, the important question you have kindly raised, namely: Isn't it "piyaadah" for a foot soldier?

The answer is: yes. However, the problem here lies with the vazn of this word, which may lead me to giving a short tutorial on this matter. I hope, Zoya sahiba and Nagesh sahib will take a note!

The correct vazn of the word "piyaada(h)" is 122, as is evident from the following she'r by Josh Malsiaani:

mujh se jaaN-baaz ko Ghurbat hai bisaat-e-shatraNj
jo na vaapas kabhi palTay, voh piyaada(h) huuN maiN

albatta, Firaaq ne apne she'r meN is lafz ko bar-vazn 22 baaNdhaa hai --- jaise ko'ii shaa'ir lafz "piyaaraa" ko "pyaaraa" ke vazn par baaNdhe!

That is why I wrote it the way I did, so that an enthusiast of the topic baHr/vazn may be able to appreciate as to what is happening here. I hope, Zoya sahiba and Nagesh sahib will like to scan both these ash'aar and verify my take on them. aur agar "your excellency" bhi is mashq meN Hissa lena chaaheN to mujh Haqeer faqeer ki jaanib se aashiirvaad Haazir hai! :-)

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 7/4/2020 6:56 AM, Naseer wrote:

Mukarramee,


As already explained, Firaq Gorakhpuri's sher does not relate to
"shai" (meaning 'item' or 'thing') but to two terms used in
Chess.

Interestingly, Josh Malihabadai's sher also relates to the game
of Chess.

************

Another point to be noted --->

A pawn can move only in the forward direction........

But there can be a situation where the pawn can be converted
into a Queen too !


Afzal

[Zoya]

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 7:51:40 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Firaaq Gorakhpuri ka to yihii Khayaal hai; farmaate haiN
> > > > >
> > > > > ishq ke khel meN maiN to, yaaro, jeetne vaalaa thaa --- lekin
> > > > > aan paRii ik sha'e pyaade kii, h'uii yeh baazii maat kahaaN :-(
> > > > >
>

> Now, the important question you have kindly raised, namely: Isn't it "piyaadah" for a foot soldier?
>
> The answer is: yes. However, the problem here lies with the vazn of this word, which may lead me to giving a short tutorial on this matter. I hope, Zoya sahiba and Nagesh sahib will take a note!
>
> The correct vazn of the word "piyaada(h)" is 122, as is evident from the following she'r by Josh Malsiaani:
>
> mujh se jaaN-baaz ko Ghurbat hai bisaat-e-shatraNj
> jo na vaapas kabhi palTay, voh piyaada(h) huuN maiN
>
> albatta, Firaaq ne apne she'r meN is lafz ko bar-vazn 22 baaNdhaa hai --- jaise ko'ii shaa'ir lafz "piyaaraa" ko "pyaaraa" ke vazn par baaNdhe!
>
> That is why I wrote it the way I did, so that an enthusiast of the topic baHr/vazn may be able to appreciate as to what is happening here. I hope, Zoya sahiba and Nagesh sahib will like to scan both these ash'aar and verify my take on them. aur agar "your excellency" bhi is mashq meN Hissa lena chaaheN to mujh Haqeer faqeer ki jaanib se aashiirvaad Haazir hai! :-)
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

RK sahib,

Between Irfan sahib and you, I'm swamped with HW assignments this weekend! I left Irfan sahib's HW half cooked, stopped watching the July 4th fireworks on TV, and started working on yours! :)

I am so proud of myself!! :-) Guided by the hint that you provided, I was able to quickly figure out the bahr and taqtii' of the Firaaq sh'er, it was fun! However, I am not going to give it away right now, let us first see what Nagesh sahib thinks.

I will be working on Josh Malsiaani sh'er next.

Thank you,

Your (all time?!) favorite pupil,

_______Zoya

[Zoya]

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 10:29:54 PM UTC-5, Zoya wrote:
> >
> > The correct vazn of the word "piyaada(h)" is 122, as is evident from the following she'r by Josh Malsiaani:
> >
> > mujh se jaaN-baaz ko Ghurbat hai bisaat-e-shatraNj
> > jo na vaapas kabhi palTay, voh piyaada(h) huuN maiN
> >

> > That is why I wrote it the way I did, so that an enthusiast of the topic baHr/vazn may be able to appreciate as to what is happening here. I hope, Zoya sahiba and Nagesh sahib will like to scan both these ash'aar and verify my take on them. aur agar "your excellency" bhi is mashq meN Hissa lena chaaheN to mujh Haqeer faqeer ki jaanib se aashiirvaad Haazir hai! :-)
> >
> > Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***
>
> RK sahib,
>

Follow up to my own post:

Raj uncle,

I am done! :-)

Once I took a fresh look at my taqtii' attempt for the 'Josh Malsiaani' sh'er, I was able to answer some of my own questions. I have now taken into account the flexibility of some of the syllables used and have been able to fit the sh'er perfectly in "Bahr-e-Ramal-Musamman-Makhbuun Mahfuuz Maqtuu"!

Now that's a mouthful!! :-)

Thanks for the challenge, it was really fun and contributed to my understanding of the finer details of checking 'vazn' of the syllables involved.

I am now going to resume Irfan sahib's assignment!

________Zoya

[Naseer]

muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

"nahle pe dahla" yih to kabhii ho nahiiN saktaa. aap jaise tajribah-kaar ustaadoN se kaun kisii qism ke muqaabile kaa soch bhii saktaa hai?

I have never been good at offering worth while critique of a person's creative work because I feel that in order to do complete justice to this task, one ought to know a thing or two about the subject matter itself. In this regard, I feel I am lacking and therefore hesitant in saying something for fear of making a fool of my self. Furthermore, my brain is getting slower and slower and sometimes I feel I need more time to respond. I still have n't said anything about Irfan SaaHib's taviil Ghazal!

B.G.M SaaHib has described your work as an "Urdu Translation" of 'Attar's work. I believe your "translation" is not in the mould of Fitzgerald where he knew Persian and there is some perhaps slight resemblance of his work to the original Khayyam quatrains. Nor is it in the mould of Coleman Barks (linked to Rumi) who does not know Persian and produces his translations from other people's English translations that can only be described as "recreations". In his case, there does not appear to be any connection with the originals.

I do not believe I have read any of your translations before. I often wondered if you had translated anything into Urdu. Now I have the answer and we should offer thanks to B.G.M SaaHib for having the right persuasive and "coercive" skills in enabling us this opportunity to read your work. Unlike Barks, you are a person who is equally at home in English (the source language) and the target language, Urdu. I would describe your translation as a mixture of translation, an explanation and an interpretation all rolled into one. Now, this is no mean feat! You have taken one central theme at a time and then expanded and expounded it but still remaining faithful to the original and have managed to link your stretched out and elucided creation with the "manaazir", "maraaHil" and "maraatib"! Thank you for a wonderful "trexpetation"!:-)

> samajh meN nahiiN aa rahaa k maiN aap ki is taKhleeq par kisi aek raNg ke phuul barsaa'uuN yaa k puuri ki puuri qaus-e-qazaH hi nichhaavar kar duuN. I think the latter will suit better here. :-)

In British English, in colloquial speech I can just say, "You are having a laugh, aren't ya"?

Now a couple of questions:

1. What has made you change from "MaHabbat" to "MoHabbat"?

2. Would you believe it? I have forgotten what I wanted to ask! I had two things in my mind to ask you and the second one's gone! I sometimes wonder if I am in my very early stages of Alzheimer's! God forbid!

This reminds me of an Urdu play on Pakistan TV where a father (Qazi Wajid) was speaking to his two grown up daughters and painting a very rosy picture of his sophisticated heritage. He then, with a lot of pride, said..

"mujhe viraasat meN do hii chiizeN milii haiN. ek achchhii yaad-daasht aur duusrii............................................................" There was a long pause and we never found out what the second thing was!

Ah, just remembered the second question!

2. What is this "maxsuus hastii" in your scheme of things?

Naseer

[B.G. M.]

Translation + interpretation = transpretation!

Waa..h! Naseer saahab.. kyaa hi Khuub neologistical idea!

Waise mire dimaaGh meN bhi yeh savaal ghuum rahaa thaa kih RKSaahab ki is shaahkaar taKhleeq ko sirf “tarjumaa” kehnaa Theek nahiiN.. unhoN ne nah sirf “original” English translation ke saath puuraa puuraa insaaf kiyaa hai balkih apni maKhsuus adaa se is taKhleeq meN alfaaz aur Khayaalat ke javaahir jaD diye haiN, to isay ko’ii achChhaa saa naam diyaa jaaye!

As par “ maKhsuus Hasti” kaa aap kaa savaal mire bhi dimaaGh meN thaa magar, kuChh sochne par mujhe Khud kuChh kuChh samajh meN aa hi gayaa thaa magar ab... maiN RK Saahab ke javaab kaa hi intezaar karuuNgaa.

Waise mujhe bhi viraasat meN do cheezeN Khaas milee haiN,
eik to achChhii yaad-daast aur duusarii........

?... I am drawing blank now!

==========================

[nageshsahib]

RK Sahib:

My learning is proceeding slowly. I missed some of the posts on this thread. I apologize for not replying earlier, and I did appreciate your very fine rendition of Attaar.

I am almost done with my efforts to scan the examples given by Irfan Sahib. Perhaps today I will send my efforts to Zoya Sahiba to compare with her efforts.

You were right that meter is not innate to all humans. I hope hard work makes up for lack of talent, as it does in so many other areas of human endeavor.

Regards,

Nagesh

[Naseer]

On Monday, 6 July 2020 16:18:07 UTC+1, B.G. M. wrote:
> Translation + interpretation = transpretation!
>
> Waa..h! Naseer saahab.. kyaa hi Khuub neologistical idea!
>

B.G.M SaaHib, translation + explanation + interpretation = trexpretation!:-) I have misspelt this word in my post.

>
>
> Waise mujhe bhi viraasat meN do cheezeN Khaas milee haiN,
> eik to achChhii yaad-daast aur duusarii........
>
> ?... I am drawing blank now!
>
> ==========================

This makes two of us or should I say, three of us! Qazi Wajid, you and I!

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:19:43 AM UTC-5, nageshsahib wrote:

> RK Sahib:
>
> My learning is proceeding slowly. I missed some of the posts on this thread. I apologize for not replying earlier, and I did appreciate your very fine rendition of Attaar.
>
> I am almost done with my efforts to scan the examples given by Irfan Sahib. Perhaps today I will send my efforts to Zoya Sahiba to compare with her efforts.
>
> You were right that meter is not innate to all humans. I hope hard work makes up for lack of talent, as it does in so many other areas of human endeavor.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nagesh

Hi buddy, I am on a roll these days and cruising through Irfan sahib's assignments, should be done today. :)

Now that I have give away the 'bahr' for Josh Malsiaani's sh'er, hurry up and finish RK sahib's assignment. We can then move on to Chapter 2 in the official 'bahr' thread!!. :-)

________Zoya

[Raj Kumar]

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 3:56:19 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:

muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

I do not believe I have read any of your translations before. I often wondered if you had translated anything into Urdu.

***Yes, Naseer sahib, I have previously translated a poem from English into Urdu and you have not only read it but have also made some heart-warming comments on it. The English original was a single paragraph and, to begin with, so was my translation. Later on, I added four more paragraphs in the hope that this would lead to something worthy of note.

The relevant link is given below:***

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.language.urdu.poetry/64mu_lu-3_Y/BUbJZkGno_4J;context-place=forum/alt.language.urdu.poetry

I would describe your translation as a mixture of translation, an explanation and an interpretation all rolled into one. Now, this is no mean feat! You have taken one central theme at a time and then expanded and expounded it but still remaining faithful to the original and have managed to link your stretched out and elucided creation with the "manaazir", "maraaHil" and "maraatib"! Thank you for a wonderful "trexpetation"! :-)

***Huzuur, aap ne daad to kuchh aise aNdaaz meN dii hai jaise pahaaR ki choTi par se ko’ii aabshaar phuuT paRaa ho yaa phir ruu-e-zameen se ko’ii aatish-baazi chhuuT paRii ho. aap ki is daryaa-dilii par aap ka baar baar shukriya!***

Now a couple of questions:

1. What has made you change from "MaHabbat" to "MoHabbat"?

***hu’aa yeh k jab maiN ne “maHabbat” likhna shuruu’a kiyaa to Anil sahib ne farmaaya k yeh talaffuz agarch Afzal hai magar is meN voh jaan nahiiN jo “moHabbat” yaa “muHabbat” meN hai. maiN ne un ki is baat ki tasdeeq kii kyuuN-k Khud maiN ne bhi maHsuus kiyaa thaa k jab kisi adabii maHfil meN “maHabbat” kahta huuN to yeh lafz kuchh pheeka sa lagta hai aur agar “moHabbat” kahta huuN to muqaabiltan laziiz maHsuus hota hai.

That is all there is to it ----- nothing more, nothing less!***

2. What is this "maxsuus hastii" in your scheme of things?

***janaab, chuuN-k baat yahaaN moHabbat ki ho rahii hai, is liye meri nazar meN aek aashiq apni maHbuuba ke ird-gird aek daa’ire meN ghuum rahaa hai aur us ki maHbuuba ain markaz par biraajmaan hai. usi maHbuuba ko maiN ne aek “maKhsuus hastii” kahaa hai!

Note keejiye k agar aashiq ka madaar baizavii shakl ka hota to maHbuuba (do meN se) kisi aek focus par maujuud ho sakti thi. ab chuuN-k us ka madaar daai’re ki shakl ka hai, is liye us ka focus sirf aek hi hai --- aur voh hai daa’ire ka markaz!

ab, jaaate jaate, aap ko aek she’r sunaata chaluuN jo kisi Hadd tak isi manzar ki akkaasi karta hai; arz hai

voh to haiN Khwaab-e-naaz meN aur maiN tavaaf meN
yeh kyaa tamaam raat kiye jaa rahaa huuN maiN?

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

[Naseer]

On Thursday, 9 July 2020 23:12:08 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 3:56:19 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> I do not believe I have read any of your translations before. I often wondered if you had translated anything into Urdu.
>
> ***Yes, Naseer sahib, I have previously translated a poem from English into Urdu and you have not only read it but have also made some heart-warming comments on it. The English original was a single paragraph and, to begin with, so was my translation. Later on, I added four more paragraphs in the hope that this would lead to something worthy of note.
>
> The relevant link is given below:***
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.language.urdu.poetry/64mu_lu-3_Y/BUbJZkGno_4J;context-place=forum/alt.language.urdu.poetry
>

Ah, it seems my fears for dementia/alzheimer's disease or such like may be true! Would you believe it if I said I had totally forgotten about this translation of yours. When I went back to this thread, it appeared to me if I had never visited this thread! Perhaps the added factor was that the translation was presented by B.G.M SaaHib to ALUP in (your) absentia. Now that you are very much present in the forum, I would like to clarify something.

Firstly...

agar meri faqat ik aarzuu manzuur ho jaaye
to maiN chaahuuNga meri har saHar kuChh is taraH aaye
kih, tere saaNs ki Khushbuu miri gardan ko mehkaaye
tire honToN ki garmee mere ruKhsaaroN pe Chhaa jaaye
tiri yeh ungliyaaaN mere badan par aise raqsaaN ho
kih, tere dil ki har dhaRkan mire dil meN samaa jaaye

In the fifth line, should it not be, "tiri yeh ungliyaaN mere badan par aise raqsaaN *hoN*?

Secondly if B.G.M SaaHib won't mind my saying so, it seems that you have a "soft spot" for B.G.M SaaHib as you have complied with his translation request not once but twice now! On the other hand there is "poor" Vijay SaaHib who implored you for a translation but there has been no response from you!:-) Do you remember his request/

Talking about translations, you assigned Shoaib Tanvir SaaHib a "mashq" which he declined but I took up. You have n't "marked" my effort. It may have escaped your attention as you probably have a large pile of such "mashqs" to attend to!:-)

> Now a couple of questions:
>
> 1. What has made you change from "MaHabbat" to "MoHabbat"?
>
> ***hu’aa yeh k jab maiN ne “maHabbat” likhna shuruu’a kiyaa to Anil sahib ne farmaaya k yeh talaffuz agarch Afzal hai magar is meN voh jaan nahiiN jo “moHabbat” yaa “muHabbat” meN hai. maiN ne un ki is baat ki tasdeeq kii kyuuN-k Khud maiN ne bhi maHsuus kiyaa thaa k jab kisi adabii maHfil meN “maHabbat” kahta huuN to yeh lafz kuchh pheeka sa lagta hai aur agar “moHabbat” kahta huuN to muqaabiltan laziiz maHsuus hota hai.
>
> That is all there is to it ----- nothing more, nothing less!***

This seems fair enough. I would say that perhaps you feel the "odd one out" writing and reciting this word as "maHabbat" when the rest of Urdu speaking peoples are pronouncing it as "muHabbat". In a mushaa3irah, as a matter of interest, have you ever heard a poet pronounce it as "maHabbat"?

> 2. What is this "maxsuus hastii" in your scheme of things?
>
> ***janaab, chuuN-k baat yahaaN moHabbat ki ho rahii hai, is liye meri nazar meN aek aashiq apni maHbuuba ke ird-gird aek daa’ire meN ghuum rahaa hai aur us ki maHbuuba ain markaz par biraajmaan hai. usi maHbuuba ko maiN ne aek “maKhsuus hastii” kahaa hai!
>
> Note keejiye k agar aashiq ka madaar baizavii shakl ka hota to maHbuuba (do meN se) kisi aek focus par maujuud ho sakti thi. ab chuuN-k us ka madaar daai’re ki shakl ka hai, is liye us ka focus sirf aek hi hai --- aur voh hai daa’ire ka markaz!

Thank you for this explanation. So the focus of the lover, naturally, is the beloved who is positioned right in the centre of the circle. When the lover is "doing his rounds" so to speak and simulataneously looking at his beloved, is the beloved also looking at the lover all the time or are there times when the beloved has her back to him?:-)

> ab, jaaate jaate, aap ko aek she’r sunaata chaluuN jo kisi Hadd tak isi manzar ki akkaasi karta hai; arz hai
>
> voh to haiN Khwaab-e-naaz meN aur maiN tavaaf meN
> yeh kyaa tamaam raat kiye jaa rahaa huuN maiN?
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

bahut xuub Raj Kumar SaaHib. Now something related to this but it could be construed as "blasphemous" but I am sure you and other ALUPers will be kind to me:-) While at university, an Iranian friend of mine asked me why Satan had been thrown out of Heavan by God. I gave him the usual explanation of not bowing to Adam when he had been commanded to do so. My friend replied, "No, this is not the reason. God was sitting on his throne and Iblis (later to become Shaitaan) was going round and round the throne performing his act of worship. After a while he got a bit tired of this and said to God, "Please God, can I now sit on your throne!"

Naseer

[Raj Kumar]

On Friday, July 10, 2020 at 12:29:57 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 July 2020 23:12:08 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 3:56:19 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:

Ah, it seems my fears for dementia/Alzheimer's disease or such like may be true! Would you believe it if I said I had totally forgotten about this translation of yours. When I went back to this thread, it appeared to me if I had never visited this thread! Perhaps the added factor was that the translation was presented by B.G.M SaaHib to ALUP in (your) absentia. Now that you are very much present in the forum, I would like to clarify something.

Firstly...

agar meri faqat ik aarzuu manzuur ho jaaye
to maiN chaahuuNga meri har saHar kuChh is taraH aaye
kih, tere saaNs ki Khushbuu miri gardan ko mehkaaye
tire honToN ki garmee mere ruKhsaaroN pe Chhaa jaaye
tiri yeh ungliyaaaN mere badan par aise raqsaaN ho
kih, tere dil ki har dhaRkan mire dil meN samaa jaaye

In the fifth line, should it not be, "tiri yeh ungliyaaN mere badan par aise raqsaaN *hoN*?

***ji haaN, Naseer sahib, it should be “hoN” here --- which you can easily regard as a typo! ***

Secondly if B.G.M SaaHib won't mind my saying so, it seems that you have a "soft spot" for B.G.M SaaHib as you have complied with his translation request not once but twice now! On the other hand there is "poor" Vijay SaaHib who implored you for a translation but there has been no response from you!:-) Do you remember his request?

***Yes, I do remember that request but since Firaaq G. had already tried his hand at that translation and couldn’t do a job to Vijay sahib’s satisfaction, I inferred that it would be too difficult a task for me.***

Talking about translations, you assigned Shoaib Tanvir SaaHib a "mashq" which he declined but I took up. You haven't "marked" my effort. It may have escaped your attention as you probably have a large pile of such "mashqs" to attend to! :-)

***I remember that too. I myself didn’t undertake that task because I thought it was too easy for me! :-)

I did, however, see your output but didn’t comment on it because I expected the translation of the third paragraph of that poem to be in the same baHr as the first two paragraphs were. But, alas, your translation did not meet that criterion. Sorry! *** :-(

> Now a couple of questions:
>
> 1. What has made you change from "MaHabbat" to "MoHabbat"?
>
> ***hu’aa yeh k jab maiN ne “maHabbat” likhna shuruu’a kiyaa to Anil sahib ne farmaaya k yeh talaffuz agarch Afzal hai magar is meN voh jaan nahiiN jo “moHabbat” yaa “muHabbat” meN hai. maiN ne un ki is baat ki tasdeeq kii kyuuN-k Khud maiN ne bhi maHsuus kiyaa thaa k jab kisi adabii maHfil meN “maHabbat” kahta huuN to yeh lafz kuchh pheeka sa lagta hai aur agar “moHabbat” kahta huuN to muqaabiltan laziiz maHsuus hota hai.
>
> That is all there is to it ----- nothing more, nothing less!***

This seems fair enough. I would say that perhaps you feel the "odd one out" writing and reciting this word as "maHabbat" when the rest of Urdu speaking peoples are pronouncing it as "muHabbat". In a mushaa3irah, as a matter of interest, have you ever heard a poet pronounce it as "maHabbat"?

***No, I have never heard any poet saying “maHabbat”. I started saying so only after you pointed this out and I double-checked it in Platts. I think from now on I’ll write this word as “muHabbat” -------- neither with ‘a’ nor with ‘o’! ***

> 2. What is this "maxsuus hastii" in your scheme of things?
>
> ***janaab, chuuN-k baat yahaaN moHabbat ki ho rahii hai, is liye meri nazar meN aek aashiq apni maHbuuba ke ird-gird aek daa’ire meN ghuum rahaa hai aur us ki maHbuuba ain markaz par biraajmaan hai. usi maHbuuba ko maiN ne aek “maKhsuus hastii” kahaa hai!
>

> Note keejiye k agar aashiq ka madaar baizavii shakl ka hota to maHbuuba (do meN se) kisi aek focus par maujuud ho sakti thi. ab chuuN-k us ka madaar daai’re ki shakl ka hai, is liye us ka focus sirf aek hi hai --- aur voh hai daa’ire ka markaz!***

Thank you for this explanation. So the focus of the lover, naturally, is the beloved who is positioned right in the centre of the circle. When the lover is "doing his rounds" so to speak and simulataneously looking at his beloved, is the beloved also looking at the lover all the time or are there times when the beloved has her back to him? :-)

***jii haaN, ishq meN aise taGhaiyur-o-tabaddul zaruur hote haiN magar --- in the spirit of this poem ---

muHabbat meN nahiiN hai farq ‘aage’ aur ‘peechhe’ kaa
usii ko dekh kar jeete haiN, daa’eN ho k baa’eN ho! :-)

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

[B.G. M.]

“...... muHabbat meN nahiiN hai farq ‘aage’ aur ‘peechhe’ kaa
usii ko dekh kar jeete haiN, daa’eN ho kih baa’eN ho! :-) ”

Unbelievable! What a quick presence of mind! Hats off to you, Sir!
Aur HaaN, baizavi madaar waali aap ki explanation bhi Khuub rahii.
Keep it on!
We have to get, err... wish to get much more of such masterpieces from you yet!
Allah kare zaur-e-suKhan aur ziyaadah!📿📿📿

===================================