What essential qualities should one look for in a literary translation?
Naseer
These days janaab-i-Afzal Sahib has been posting on the subject of
translations of poetry from English to Urdu and Urdu to English. In
the latest post, there is an interesting discussion in progress
concerning the meaning behind Faiz's nazm, "Raqeeb se". It appears
that there are divergent views held by Urdu knowing ALUPers. It
therefore stands to reason that if the 3-4 participants taking part
were to translate the poem into another language, each one would most
probably come out with a version that does not wholly convey the same
meaning. This should not surprise any of us. Whatt this does show is
that the reader is receiving a version of events but not necessarily
the "correct" version or the "complete" version.
A translation can not be expected to match the original in terms of
meaning, rhythm, the musicality of the language and all the other
nuinaces of the "parent" language. But this does not mean that one
should not venture into the field of translation. After all, how else
could one know about the literature of other languages if one does not
know that language? Through translation of course.
Literary translation is not as easy as non-literary disciplines. It
has been said that a translation of literature can be compared to the
"wrong side" of the carpet; the original being the top of the carpet.
This may sound rather harsh for one does come across some fine
examples of literary translation. But I wonder, whether it is fair to
call such works as translations or are they "transformations" or
"transcreations" or some such word? As an aside, if Faiz or Iqbal
(both English knowing poets) were to translate a piece of their own
work into English, one would expect it to be of the highest quality.
But, no, this is definitely not the case! I don't have actual examples
at hand, but I do believe both these poets have ventured into little
bit of translation of their own poetry. Translation, therefore is an
art in itself.
A while back ( nine years to be exact), Zafar Sahib started thread
called "Ghalib Punjabi MeN". Here is a link to that thread.
A gentleman named Aseer has translated a selection of Ghalib's Urdu
poetry and to my mind he has done a grand job. Of course non-Punjabis
can not be expected to appreciate his attempt at conveying quite
accurately and beautifully Ghalib's verse. There are no doubt others
who have been quite successful in translation Urdu poetry. One name
that comes to mind immediately is Victor.G. Kiernan who has translated
both Faiz and Iqbal.
While on the subject of translations, one can not and must not
overlook Edward Fitzgerald. His "translation" of Khayyam's Ruba'iyaat
is world renowned. But the problem is that most of the time one can
not easily match his translation with the original quatrain; sometimes
not at all.
Here is one where we can trace to the original.
ziiN pesh nishaan-i-buudanii-haa buudast
paivastah qalam zi nek-o-bad naasuudast
dar roz-i-azal haraaNchih baayist bi-daad
Gham Khurdan-o-Koshiidan-i-maa behuudst
Literal translation
Before (all) this, all that was to be was put in place
The pen has not rested at all from (writing) good and bad
On the first day He gave whatever that was necessary
Our grieving and endeavors are of no use (at all)
Fitzgerald's translation
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line
Nor all your Tears wash out a word of it
Most of you will be familiar with Hafiz Shirazi's famous Ghazal whose
matla' is..
agar aaN Turk-i-Shiiraazii ba-dast aarad dil-i-maaraa
ba-Khaal-i-Hinduash baKhsham Samarqand-o-BuKhaaraa raa
Literal translation.
If that Shiraazii Turk were to take my heart in his* hand
For his* black mole (on his cheek) I will give away Samarqand and
BuKhaaraa
* There is no gender differentiation in Persian.
**Sir William Jones' translation
Sweet maid, if thou would'st charm my sight,
And bid these arms thy neck enfold;
That rosy cheek, that lily hand
Would give thy poet more delight
Than all Bocara's vaunted gold,
Than all the gems of Samarcand
** Renowned Sanskrit and Persian Scholar and Philologist and founder
of the Asiatic Society of Bengal at Calcutta.
Now, I would go for this creative translation any time, but, as a
person who has an interest in language matters, I always tend to look
out for tenses etc and how accurately the translation is
linguistically. What should we look out for in a good translation?
What would you consider as good examples of Urdu to another language
and another language to Urdu translations?
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
I think all of us are aware of the difficulties and pitfalls
involved in poetic translations. I am using the word "poetic"
on purpose. Because translations of prose into prose do not
represent the same level of difficulty.
I think the essential features of a good translation can be summed
up as follows :
(a) It should adequately convey the broad sense and (if possible)
the subtle nuances of the original piece.
(b) It should be sufficiently "poetic".
(c) It should conform to the correct idiom and phraseology of the
language in which the original is translated.
As has been said, this is indeed a tall order. You have already
cited the example of Fitzgerald. Over the years, many have said
that "what is being read is in fact Fitzgerald himself, and not
Omar Khaiyyaam".
Here are some more examples (selected at random) from Ralph
Russell's attempts at "translating" Ghalib {the original
verse is also quoted after each such attempt }:
1. I will not cry for more if I may only look at you
But there among the houris let me look upon your face
TaskeeN ko hum na royeN jo zauq-e-nazar mile
Hooraan-e-KHuld men tiri soorat magar mile
2. I am not bound to take the path that Khizar indicates
I'll think an old man comes to bear me company on my way
Laazim naheeN k(e) KHizr ki hum pairavi kareN
Jaana k(e) ik buzurg hameN hum'safar mile
3. At least you have the thorns of grief and yearning to behold her
Love cannot pluck the flowers of heart's desire? Then be it so
KHaar KHaar-e-alam-e-hasrat-e-deedar to hai
Shauq gul'cheen-e-gulistaan-e-tasalli na sahi
4. Its desolation matches this, but where this vast expanse ?
The desert brings me ease that banishes all thought of home
Kam naheeN woh bhi KHaraabi men pe wus'at m'aloom
Dasht men hai mujhe woh 'aish k(e) ghar yaad naheeN
5. In prison, your distracted lover still thinks of your tresses
True, he has also felt the burden of his heavy chains
Qaid men hai tire waiyhshi ko wuhi zulf ki yaad
HaaN, kuchh ik raNj-e-giraaN~baariye~zaNjeer bhi tha
You and other ALUPers can well decide whether the above examples
comply with even one of the three criteria that I had stipulated
above.
Still I would venture to suggest that, comparatively speaking,
the least difficult are translations from Faarsi to Urdu and
(perhaps) vice versa.
Many people these days seek to connect Urdu with Pakistan. And
yet someone once derided the National Anthem of that country since
"it contained just one Urdu word -- 'ka'" ! The point I am
making here is in the context of this issue of translation. Even
though the entire Anthem may consist of Faarsi (and even Arabic)
words, yet literate people in both countries do readily understand
what the Anthem means.
Some years back, on a visit to India, I had come across a book
which contained poetic translations of some ghazals of Haafiz.
I had jotted down a few ghazals at the time. And here is one of
them. The Faarsi original's matla' is as under :
Har k(e) oo yak sar-e-moo paNd-e-m'ra gosh kunad
Hum'choo man halqa-e-gesoo-e-tu dar~gosh kunad
{Transcription errors to be excused}
Urdu Translation :
Gar naseehat pe miree apna koi gosh kare
Halqa-e-gesoo-e-mushkeen ko dar~gosh kare
Ja ke maiKHaane men dekhe dehane-saaqi ko
Mai piye aur lab-e-sheereeN ki shakar nosh kare
Tu gul-o-nargis-o-sosan ki taraf jaaye agar
Husn tera har ik aawaaz ko KHaamosh kare
Is sabab pech-o-KHam-o-taab mile kaakul ko
Taa'k(e) woh qaid dil-e-'aashiq-e-mad'hosh kare
Shikwe Haafiz ko haiN furqat ke bahut, par dekhe
Jab tiri ek jhalak, sab woh faraamosh kare
It can be seen how convenient it is, relatively speaking, to
render Faarsi into Urdu.
Afzal
Baad-e-Siyaah
I think the reason why South Asians don't become good poets in English
is their inability to translate their native language into English.
Prose is a different matter. Poetry is a lot more creative and
inspiration thing than prose.
Naseer
The delay in my response has been to provide sufficient time to other
friends (and foes!:-) ) to offer their views. One friend has been long
missing but his sudden appearance has brought renewed life to my
aching bones after going through a few days of flu! Welcome back UVR
Sahib! You might have forgotton us but we have always had you in our
minds.
On Jan 15, 2:02 am, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:
> I think all of us are aware of the difficulties and pitfalls
> involved in poetic translations. I am using the word "poetic"
> on purpose. Because translations of prose into prose do not
> represent the same level of difficulty.
>
> I think the essential features of a good translation can be summed
> up as follows :
>
> (a) It should adequately convey the broad sense and (if possible)
> the subtle nuances of the original piece.
>
> (b) It should be sufficiently "poetic".
>
> (c) It should conform to the correct idiom and phraseology of the
> language in which the original is translated.
>
> As has been said, this is indeed a tall order. You have already
> cited the example of Fitzgerald. Over the years, many have said
> that "what is being read is in fact Fitzgerald himself, and not
> Omar Khaiyyaam".
I am essentially in agreement with the points you have tabulated.
However, I do not believe it is correct to say that Fitzgerald and
Jones' (as shown in examples cited) have translated Khayyam and
Hafiz. What they have done is created "tazmiins" and how wonderful
these new creations are. I say "tazmiins" because, the essential idea
of the poets is there in their handiwork but the rest is of their own
imagination. In short they have added material to their "translations"
which is no where to be found in the original. I believe a certain
amount of honesty and integrity is required for this process. The
translator ought to declare, quite openly, in the preface of his book
that he/she has taken certain liberties. I know translating a piece of
poetry is not the same as religious texts but let me provide you with
an example of the translation of the Qur'aan which makes me very
angry.From Surah FaatiHa ( I have transcribed the verses as best as I
can with the keyboard at my disposal, along with the literal
translation). The verses form part of a Muslim's daily prayers.
ihdina_ssiraata_lmustaqiim.
Guide us to the straight path.
siraata_llaaziina 'an'amta 'alaihim Ghairi_lmaGhduubi 'alaihim wa
la_ddwaaliin.
The path of those you have bestowed your favours*; not of those who
have earned your wrath. Nor of those who have gone astray**.
One translation I came across has the following additions, in
brackets.
* ( such as the Jews)
** (such as the Christians)
Now, one normally reads something in translation because one does not
know the original language. Most people would believe that these
additional items are part of the Qur'aan itself when they are not.
This kind of translation is absolutely despicable.
Above is an exteme example of course. Jones talking about "Bocara's
vaunted gold " and "all the gems of Samarcand" is not causing anybody
any harm. In essence he is not wrong in conveying the poet's view.
Afterall, Samarqand and Bukhara were glorious in their heydays.
Nevertheless there is no mention of gold and gems and sweet maid and
the rest in Hafiz's couplet.
I think, if at all possible, the translator should provide a literal
translation along with the "poetic" or "literary" translation. But,
the latter still should not make unnnecessary additions to the
original.
You have provided a number of examples from Ralph Russel's
translations. I personally have never been keen on his translations.
As far as Farsi to Urdu translation is concerned, the reason why it
seems relatively straight forward is because the two language's tense
system essentially mirrors one another. There is a shared vocabulary
and a person who understands both languages and poetry does not have
too many problems translating the Farsi material. Even then, passing
your "kasauTii" would not be an easy matter!
Naseer
Vijay
Naseer sahib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat!
I have been meaning to respond to this thread (an important topic in
my opinion) but just haven't had the time till now. I have a long pre-
amble, so I ask for ALUPers indulgence:-)
Lydia Davis's 'definitive' translation of Madam Bovary has just come
out to much acclaim, but she has already been critiqued by Julian
Barnes (somewhat of an authority on Flaubert and the author of
Flaubert's Parrot). All previous translations have been deemed below
par by Flaubertians for either being too literal, too flowery or too
interpretive. Madam Bovary is written in what one may call rustic
French and it just doesn't translate that easily into English. Davis
has apparently gone to extraordinary lengths to create a suitable
English idiom to parallel the time and culture of Bovary. But it still
doesn't satisfy Barnes. (But he adds that people who are as picky as
he, will likely have read it in the original.)
I have just finished reading Thousand Autumns of Jaocb de Zoet, a
masterpiece by David Mitchell. He has a unique style of writing,
creating the idiom of the time or culture about which he writes. There
is many a passage in the book where the eponymous Dutch character
interacts with Japanese interpreters in English of late 19th century.
He then have English and Irish characters speaking in their idiom of
that era. He displays similar language 'tricks' in his other book
Could Atlas which spans 3-4 centuries and the language changes
depending upon which chapter one is reading. I wonder how anyone can
ever translate these subtleties of language into another language.
The earlier translations of War and Peace (by Maudes and Garnett etc.)
have all had their distractors, for either missing out some passages
completely, omitting French passages, or rather than reproducing them
verbatim, translating them. One earlier edition even had a translation
of War and Peace from a French translation!! The problem now seems to
have been solved by Peaver & Volokhonsky, a husband and wife team. He
a master of English language and a poet to boot, and she, a native of
USSR but quite fluent in English. Now they are receiving something
close to respectful reviews as she is able to convey all the cultural
and idiomatic nuances of the language and he then converts those into
similar English phrases.
There is still lack of satisfaction about the title of Camus's
L'tranger in English. Should it be The stranger, The Foreigner, or the
commonly used Outsider. Or how to translate the word 'maman' from the
opening line. In French it is something between 'mother' and 'mum'.
One surely wouldn't write it as 'mum died today', but 'mother died to-
day', the common translation, doesn't quite capture 'maman' of
'Aujourd'hui, maman est morte'.
(If Camus wanted 'mother', he would have said 'ma mere')
Pages have been written about whether Gregor Samsa of Kafka's
Metamorphosis finds himself transformed into 'a beetle', 'a huge
insect' 'a giant bug' or a 'cockroach'? There just isn't a word in
English to capture the German original. Or what to call his other book
'Der Prozess', literally the process, but more of a judicial process.
So most have settled on The Trial, not quite exact but 2nd best.
I have opened with quite a few examples and if you are still reading,
you know where I am going. These are difficulties of translating prose
from one language to another. Now multiply that 100 times and we are
getting somewhere closer to the difficulty of translating poetry. And
when we have something as beautiful and unique as Urdu poetry, with
its characteristic grammar, izaafaats and the structure of ghazal, I
will mostly be dissatisfied with English translations that endeavor to
capture it literally. How does one capture words like 'naseh'. 'vaiz',
'saaqi', 'bulbul' etc. with all that they mean to an Urdu reader?
Forget about 'rahiin-e-sitam-haae-rozgaar' or 'turrah-e-pur-pech-o-
Kham ka pech-o-Kham'. Ralph Russel's example proves my point quite
ably. Now having said this, those who take the essence of the meaning
of a couplet or the whole poem, and then render it into English, with
the sensibilities of English language, as Fitzgerald has done to Omar
Khayyam's Farsi poetry, it becomes a little more acceptable, as one
can enjoy it as English poetry. 'The moving finger writes....' is a
very good example; it works well as English poetry and the fact that
it is 'derived' from 'Khayyam', only adds to the charm!
The matter may be somewhat different when it comes to languages of
Indo-Pak because of the shared roots and origins of so many words. I
have mentioned this example before but Mustafa Tabassum's rendering of
Ghalib's persian ghazal into Punjabi is particularly endearing, even
though he had to lengthen the meter to accommodate the full meaning. I
don't know Farsi but I have a book that translate this ghazal into
English and Urdu, so I am fairly conversant with the meaning. Mustafa
Tabbasum has done a wonderful job in that the ghazal stands on its own
as much as a translation of Ghalib.
I think I have said enough for the time being.
Best regards,
Vijay
arahim
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.urdu.poetry/browse_frm/th...
Here is a Punjabi nazm by Faiz. Everything he is saying here is simple
enough but conveying the same tone of voice in Urdu may not be that
easy
rabba sachayaa
rabba sachayaa toon tay aakhayaa see
jaa oay bandayaa jug da shah ain toon
saDian nai'mtaan tairiaan doltaan nay
saDaa naib tay alijah ain toon
ais laaray tay toar kad puchaya ee
key ais namaNay tay beetian neeN
kadee saar we la'ee o rab saiyaan
tairay shah naal jug key keetiyaan neeN
kitay dhoNs police sarkar dee ai
kitay dhaandli maal patwar dee ai
eeNwain hudaan wich kalpay jaan mairee
jeewain phaahi ch koonj kurlaundee ai
changa shah banayaa ee rab saiyaan
polay khandiaan waar na aundee ai
mainoon shahee naeeN cha(h)idi rab mairay
main tay izzat da tukkar mungnaN aN
mainoon ta(h)Ng naeeN, mahlaan mahRayaN dee
main tay jeewain dee nukkaR mangnaN an
mairee munnay tay tairiyaan main munnaaN
tairee soNh jay ik we gal moRan
jay aih maang naeeN pujdee taiN rabba
phair main jaawaan tay rab koi hoar loRaaN
Naseer
I read your detailed post with a great amount of interest. Apologies
for a brief reply. I agree with you that satisfactory equivalents from
one language are not always easily found in another. I can think of
several Punjabi words for which I do not know straight forward Urdu
equivalents. But a translator has to employ all his skills and words
at his disposal.
Is it possible for you to post Ghalib's Persian Ghazal and Sufi Ghulam
Mustafa Tabassum's Punjabi translation. Let us see if he has been
"Fitzgeraldian" in his approach or if he has genuinely produced a
wonderful translation.
Naseer
Vijay
Naseer sahib, I still haven't hit home, but once I am back,
comfortably ensconced, I promise to post the Ghalib ghazal as well as
the Khushwant Singh's Iqbal translation that I promised a while back.
But now that I am here, I would like to share an interesting anecdote.
When I was young, around 10, my father used to recite a short Punjabi
poem to inspire us kids to study at night. It was penned by a close
acquaintance of his, I believe someone called Master Tara Singh*. The
poem goes thus:
jo ucchtaaiiaaN vaDDiaan purshaaN hain jagat te paaiiaaN
ikko chhaal achanak laaiaaN, oh naahiiN hatth aaiiaaN
oh, jad ki unhaaN de saathii maar ghuraaRe sauNde
vaDDii vaDDii raat tak sann karde rehan kamaaiian!!
Now it wasn't until my early twenties that I came across the HW
Longfellow 'version'. I remember getting a deja vu feeling when I
first saw it, and it took me a minute or two to realize that Master
Tara Singh had actually translated the Longfellow piece. Here is the
original (from memory, so may be a word wrong here or there):
Heights that great men reached and kept
Were not attained in a single flight
But they, when their companions slept
Were toiling upward into the night!!
Pretty good translation I thought. So to add to my post above and
state the obvious, poems with simpler text can be translated with
relative ease whereas those requiring deeper, philosophical or
psychologically complex thought or expressing ethno- or culture
sensitive ideas will prove that much more difficult. (it is relatively
easy to find a word for 'naseh' in English, say, preacher but
difficult to imbue it with the necessary condescension that Urdu
poetry requires).
Best,
Vijay
* Here is a bonus, another one of Master Tara Singh (which I believe
is an original and not a translation:-)).
ghain ghaaflii aaqilii lafz ikko
wazn nuqtiaaN vicch na farq koii
phir bhii nuqtiaaN de her pher kaaran
sauaaN kohaaN dii ma'aniaaN vitth hoii
aiveN tatt te iNdrii aNgg saare
sabbhe purshiaaN de ikko hain joii
aipar saNgat de thaaOn kuthaaOn sadqa
tara singh hoiaa uuch niich soii
Naseer
On Jan 21, 9:40 pm, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 1:13 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Vijay Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> > I read your detailed post with a great amount of interest. Apologies
> > for a brief reply. I agree with you that satisfactory equivalents from
> > one language are not always easily found in another. I can think of
> > several Punjabi words for which I do not know straight forward Urdu
> > equivalents. But a translator has to employ all his skills and words
> > at his disposal.
>
> > Is it possible for you to post Ghalib's Persian Ghazal and Sufi Ghulam
> > Mustafa Tabassum's Punjabi translation. Let us see if he has been
> > "Fitzgeraldian" in his approach or if he has genuinely produced a
> > wonderful translation.
>
> > Naseer
>
> Naseer sahib, I still haven't hit home, but once I am back,
> comfortably ensconced, I promise to post the Ghalib ghazal as well as
> the Khushwant Singh's Iqbal translation that I promised a while back.
> But now that I am here, I would like to share an interesting anecdote.
When you do "hit" home, could you please post Ghalib's original Farsi,
Khushwant Singh's English and Sufi Tabassum's Punjabi, if possible at
all. I think it would be a useful exercise to compare the original
with two translation efforts.
> When I was young, around 10, my father used to recite a short Punjabi
> poem to inspire us kids to study at night. It was penned by a close
> acquaintance of his, I believe someone called Master Tara Singh*. The
> poem goes thus:
>
> jo ucchtaaiiaaN vaDDiaan purshaaN hain jagat te paaiiaaN
> ikko chhaal achanak laaiaaN, oh naahiiN hatth aaiiaaN
> oh, jad ki unhaaN de saathii maar ghuraaRe sauNde
> vaDDii vaDDii raat tak sann karde rehan kamaaiian!!
And over half a century later, you can still remember this!! balle
balle :-)
Vijay Sahib, in the first line, for "hain" (I presume "han" equivalent
of Urdu "haiN"), should the word be "ne" ? And in the fourth line,
perhaps...
vaDDii vaDDii raat tak saNR karde *rahNde* kamaaiyaaN
It's just sann/saNR does n't seem to go with rehan/rehaNR. The way I
am understanding it:
lambii lambii raat tak the karte rahte kamaa'ii (aaN)
> Now it wasn't until my early twenties that I came across the HW
> Longfellow 'version'. I remember getting a deja vu feeling when I
> first saw it, and it took me a minute or two to realize that Master
> Tara Singh had actually translated the Longfellow piece. Here is the
> original (from memory, so may be a word wrong here or there):
>
> Heights that great men reached and kept
> Were not attained in a single flight
> But they, when their companions slept
> Were toiling upward into the night!!
>
> Pretty good translation I thought. So to add to my post above and
> state the obvious, poems with simpler text can be translated with
> relative ease whereas those requiring deeper, philosophical or
> psychologically complex thought or expressing ethno- or culture
> sensitive ideas will prove that much more difficult. (it is relatively
> easy to find a word for 'naseh' in English, say, preacher but
> difficult to imbue it with the necessary condescension that Urdu
> poetry requires).
Agreed.
> * Here is a bonus, another one of Master Tara Singh (which I believe
> is an original and not a translation:-)).
>
> ghain ghaaflii aaqilii lafz ikko
> wazn nuqtiaaN vicch na farq koii
> phir bhii nuqtiaaN de her pher kaaran
> sauaaN kohaaN dii ma'aniaaN vitth hoii
> aiveN tatt te iNdrii aNgg saare
> sabbhe purshiaaN de ikko hain joii
> aipar saNgat de thaaOn kuthaaOn sadqa
> tara singh hoiaa uuch niich soii
I like it. Very nice. In the fourth line...
sauaaN kohaaN *de* ma'niyaaN vitth hoiii ?
I am thinking on the lines of linking "de" with "ma'niyaaN" rather
than "dii" with "vitthii"
Naseer
Vijay
Adaab Naseer sahib.
> When you do "hit" home, could you please post Ghalib's original Farsi,
> Khushwant Singh's English and Sufi Tabassum's Punjabi, if possible at
> all. I think it would be a useful exercise to compare the original
> with two translation efforts.
I have finally arrived home. I will try to post the above two works in
the next day or two. Ghalib/Sufi Ghulam Mustafa Tabbasum ghazal has
been discussed on ALUP before and you may be able to search it out.
But I will try to post it in sequence.
>
> > jo ucchtaaiiaaN vaDDiaan purshaaN hain jagat te paaiiaaN
> > ikko chhaal achanak laaiaaN, oh naahiiN hatth aaiiaaN
> > oh, jad ki unhaaN de saathii maar ghuraaRe sauNde
> > vaDDii vaDDii raat tak sann karde rehan kamaaiian!!
>
>
> Vijay Sahib, in the first line, for "hain" (I presume "han" equivalent
> of Urdu "haiN"), should the word be "ne" ?
The word is indeed 'hain', which is related to the other Punjabi word
'hann', loosely for the English 'have'. 'hain paaiiaaN' or 'paaiiaaN
hann' for 'have obtained'.
> And in the fourth line,
> perhaps...
>
> vaDDii vaDDii raat tak saNR karde *rahNde* kamaaiyaaN
>
The word is 'sann' with a little bit of an 'h' sound, perhaps 'sannh',
for the English 'were'. And it is 'rehan'. karde rehan for 'would
continue'. 'rehNde' is correct too but takes the line out of meter.
> It's just sann/saNR does n't seem to go with rehan/rehaNR. The way I
> am understanding it:
>
> lambii lambii raat tak the karte rahte kamaa'ii (aaN)
Actually 'lambi lambi' isn't quite accurate either. 'lambi raat', say,
in 'ghamaN dii raat lambi ae' alludes to the metaphoric long duration
of the whole night, from dusk till dawn. vaDDi raat is late into the
night, but not right till the morn. For example 'uh vaDDi raatiiN
muRya' for 'he returned late at night'.
>
> > * Here is a bonus, another one of Master Tara Singh (which I believe
> > is an original and not a translation:-)).
> > ghain ghaaflii aaqilii lafz ikko
> > wazn nuqtiaaN vicch na farq koii
> > phir bhii nuqtiaaN de her pher kaaran
> > sauaaN kohaaN dii ma'aniaaN vitth hoii
> > aiveN tatt te iNdrii aNgg saare
> > sabbhe purshiaaN de ikko hain joii
> > aipar saNgat de thaaOn kuthaaOn sadqa
> > tara singh hoiaa uuch niich soii
>
> I like it. Very nice. In the fourth line...
>
> sauaaN kohaaN *de* ma'niyaaN vitth hoiii ?
>
> I am thinking on the lines of linking "de" with "ma'niyaaN" rather
> than "dii" with "vitthii"
>
The word 'vitth' (not 'vitthii') means duurii ('vitkaara' for
discrimination, may have the same root) is feminine. And the line
means ki donoN alfaaz ke ma'ani meN sau koh kii duurii ho gaii. So
'dii' is correct as is 'kii' in Urdu. So no, 'dii' is linked with
'vitth'.
Best regards,
Vijay
Naseer
Just a reminder. If you could please post the Ghalib Farsi Ghazal with
Sufi Tabassum's Punjabi translation, it would be much appreciated.
Naseer
Vijay
Nasser sahib, sar-e-tasliim Kham etc..:-)
As I mentioned elsewhere, this has been discussed on ALUP before so
thought, you being the resident 'digger of ALUP archives':-) shouldn't
have much difficulty retrieving it. But in any case, here is the link
to my archival post and the discussion that ensued:
Best regards,
Vijay
Naseer
> On Jan 28, 10:59 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Vijay Sahib, aadaab.
>
> > Just a reminder. If you could please post the Ghalib Farsi Ghazal with
> > Sufi Tabassum's Punjabi translation, it would be much appreciated.
>
> > Naseer
>
> Nasser sahib, sar-e-tasliim Kham etc..:-)
>
> As I mentioned elsewhere, this has been discussed on ALUP before so
> thought, you being the resident 'digger of ALUP archives':-) shouldn't
> have much difficulty retrieving it. But in any case, here is the link
> to my archival post and the discussion that ensued:
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vijay
Vijay Sahib, thank you. I was already aware of this thread. One can
hardly say that any meaningful discussion on Ghalib's Farsi Ghazal and
its Urdu/Punjabi/English translation has taken place here. What has
been discussed, in detail I might add, is the word "vidaa'/vadaa'".
But, in the words of Paul Hogan of Crocodile Dundee fame, "No
worries"!:-)
Naseer
Naseer
chunaaN bi-zii kih agar marg-i-tust marg-i-davaam
Khudaa zi kardah-i-Khud sharmsaar-tar gardad
Literal translation
is taraH jii kih agar terii maut, hameshah kii maut hai
(to) Khudaa apne kiye par aur bhii sharmsaar ho
Iqbal's translation:
Live so beautifully
That if death is the end of all,
God himself may be put to shame
For having ended thy career
............................................................................................................
Naseer
arahim
> Here is a translation by Iqbal of one of his Persian couplets.
>
> chunaaN bi-zii kih agar marg-i-tust marg-i-davaam
> Khudaa zi kardah-i-Khud sharmsaar-tar gardad
>
> Literal translation
>
> is taraH jii kih agar terii maut, hameshah kii maut hai
> (to) Khudaa apne kiye par aur bhii sharmsaar ho
>
> Iqbal's translation:
>
> Live so beautifully
> That if death is the end of all,
> God himself may be put to shame
> For having ended thy career
>
Were God to annihilate you,
Exist so
He stands disgraced
In his own eyes.
> ............................................................................................................
>
> Naseer
Mukhtalif G
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is said that a pitcure is worth a thousand words, sometimes a few
words a wroth a pitcture and more. In sixties a movie was made by
Ritwik Ghatak, I came to know about it in seventies but not knowing
Bangla never saw it. 'Meghe Dhaka Tara' is not only a clear picture
but a complete mystry novel. How would you translate it?
Naseer
> It is said that a pitcure is worth a thousand words, sometimes a few
> words a wroth a pitcture and more. In sixties a movie was made by
> Ritwik Ghatak, I came to know about it in seventies but not knowing
> Bangla never saw it. 'Meghe Dhaka Tara' is not only a clear picture
> but a complete mystry novel. How would you translate it?
Mukhtalif G, aadaab 'arz hai.
banaa ke faqiiroN kaa ham bhes Ghalib
tamaashaa-i-ahl-i-karam dekhte haiN
It is possible Rajiv Chakravarti Sahib might be able to translate the
Bangla title for you. But I might translate it as:
baadal-Dhakaa taaraa
badlii-chhupaa sitaarah
sharmiilaa sitaarah:-)
sitaarah-i-abr-posh (Cloud-wearing star)
sitaarah-i-abr-nahuftah (Cloud-hidden star)
sitaarah-i-abr-giriftah
Naseer
مختلف جی
how about
nihaaN-e-abr sitaarah!
Rajiv Chakravarti
> It is possible Rajiv Chakravarti Sahib might be able to translate the
> Bangla title for you. But I might translate it as:
I certainly would have offered my input, if my native tongue were,
in fact, Bengali, Naseer sahab. Since it isn't, I will have to ask to
be
excused.
Regards,
RC :)
Naseer
wrote:
Well Rajiv Sahib, the proviso was "might":-) If we do need your
assistance in the future, what languages can we expect any assistance
from your good self? This is of course leaving aside English, Urdu,
Hindi and Farsi.
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
I am sure Telugu would be one. It is in fact a very sweet language.
I have heard its native speakers call it as the "Italian of the
East".
Afzal
مختلف جی
>
> Mukhtalif G, aadaab 'arz hai.
Naseer Sahib
aadaab
yaa to aap tahzeeb bhuul gaye haiN yaa phir jaan buujh kar Mukhlif G
Sahib ko niichaa dikhaane par tul gaye haiN. aap ki information ki
liye bataa duuN ke 'G' se muraad 'ji' ki nahiiN hai bal-k G
abbreviation hai Garhwali ka. bhala sochiye Mukhtalif Sahib khud ke
liye ji kyuN istemaal kareNge?
aadaab arz hai
aap se saKHt naaraaaaaaz
Mukhtalif G
arahim
I don't know the language but I can get the basic meaning from the
responses to the thread. The next step would be to see what was
actually meant by the filmmaker or what he was trying to convey (I
have not seen the movie). Though what he seems to mean is as Naseer
sahib has said sitaarah-i-abr-giriftah though that probably does not
convey the gravity that the writer intends.
badal ki oat main taaraa?
مختلف جی
> responses to the thread. The next step would be to see what was
> actually meant by the filmmaker or what he was trying to convey (I
> have not seen the movie). Though what he seems to mean is as Naseer
> sahib has said sitaarah-i-abr-giriftah though that probably does not
> convey the gravity that the writer intends.
>
> badal ki oat main taaraa?
>
megh (S) -> cloud as in Kalidas' epic Megh-dutam ( Cloud as
Messenger)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meghe_Dhaka_Tara
It is meant to be a metaphor. The central character appears to be
exploited by one and all. A star under cloud. The words really have
foreboding impact on account of shear imagery it creates.
Naseer
Thank you Afzal Sahib. Perhaps the Telugu speakers ought to be saying
"Italian is the Telagu of the West" just as "Switzerland is the
Kashmir of the West"!:-)
Naseer
arahim
Shakespeare ka cloud-capp'd towers to hai sha'iad cloud-capped star
bhi ho magar iss istaaray kay saath muslaa hai keh sitaraa cloud-
capped nahin ho sakta. zameen say daikiyay to uss kay peechay chup
sakta hai.
مختلف جی
> > Naseer
>
> I am sure Telugu would be one. It is in fact a very sweet language.
> I have heard its native speakers call it as the "Italian of the
> East".
>
> Afzal
I remember Hema Malini is a Chakarvarti. Her mother was the first
bully mother, going around shooting places with her star daughter..
She is Tamil. Also Chakravarti Rajgopalachari another a Tamil
UVR
Curious minds want to know: what, in your opinion does Hema Malini's
or Rajaji's surname have to do with RC saahib's surname?
-UVR.
Baad-e-Siyaah
(Note: I have decided to use my taKhallus (Mukhtalif) for creative
work. I believe I have it in some measure even if Vijay Sahib and
Naseer Sahib don't think so. Baad e Siyaah will do for other inanities
until something else crops up)
UVR Sahib
aadaab
Healthy curiosity is fine but too much of it clouds mind. Like if you
look at a smudged wall for a long time you will begin to notice that
smudge morphing into faces and eventually beginning to tell fancy
stories. Simple inference is that RC Sahib is not Telagu but Tamil
therefore his mother-tongue is Tamil. Although seems less probable
because a Hydrabadi is more likely interested in Urdu than a Madarasi
but let us wait for inscrutable RC Sahib 'is raaz ka pardah faash
kareN'
aadaab arz hai
Baad e Siyaah
UVR
Indeed, let us allow RC saahib to unravel this mystery (if a mystery
worth unraveling it indeed be).
However, I am intrigued by your assertion about Telugu (spelling,
please!) and Hyderabadis. Every Telugu is not a "Hyderabadi", nor is
every "Hyderabadi" a Telugu (not even if we assume that by Hyderabad
you are referring to the area controlled by the erstwhile Nizam). As
it stands, Hyderabad is far from the only place, or even a 'major'
place, where Telugu-s come from.
Your use of "Hyderabadi" and "Madrasi" took me back to when I was
growing up, when, to the average man on the street, anyone who was
from a place south of Bombay was a "Madrasi". It used to drive me up
the wall. The arrival of nationwide TV and programming controlled by
the Central Government set some of this incorrectness right. But,
evidently, not nearly enough things.
-UVR.
UVR
"Italian of the East" is a phrase the Britishers coined, AFAIK, based
on the similarity of the *sounds* of Telugu (sp!) to Italian.
Telugu(sp!) speakers merely adopted the phrase and embraced it as
their own. Just as they have adopted and adapted many Farsi words
into their lexicon; so many that one might be tempted to call it the
"Urdu of the South"! :-)
-UVR.
Naseer
> (Note: I have decided to use my taKhallus (Mukhtalif) for creative
> work. I believe I have it in some measure even if Vijay Sahib and
> Naseer Sahib don't think so. Baad e Siyaah will do for other inanities
> until something else crops up)
Anil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
If by above the implication is that I have a problem with your use of
"muKhtalif", then nothing could be further from the truth. You are
free to call yourself whatever takes your fancy. But if as a friend,
you had asked me for some friendly advice, I would have suggested to
you that you adopt "Girgat" as your nom de plume. But, alas, a
gentleman from Ahmadabad has beaten you to it!:-)
Naseer
Vijay
>
> - Show quoted text -
I was delayed once at the Istanbul airport and got talking to a fellow
passanger at the airport Starbucks counter. She was white but with a
dark complexion and after a while I mentioned that although I had
difficulty placing her accent, I could discern a very 'sing song'
Italian lilt. She confirmed that she is in fact from an area around
Sorrento. She then added (with pride) that she had lived in India for
so long time and that people often say she has a Tamil accent:-). I
now wonder if she confused Tamil with Telugu?
Vijay
Baad-e-Siyaah
>
> If by above the implication is that I have a problem with your use of
> "muKhtalif", then nothing could be further from the truth. You are
> free to call yourself whatever takes your fancy. But if as a friend,
> you had asked me for some friendly advice, I would have suggested to
> you that you adopt "Girgat" as your nom de plume. But, alas, a
> gentleman from Ahmadabad has beaten you to it!:-)
>
> Naseer
Janaab e Naseer Sahib
khate haiN shaatir se shaatir qaatil be koi na koi suraaG ChoR jaataa
hai. Yaqeenan aap Tamilian nahiiN haiN nah hi Telugu, Kannadiga, ya
phir Malyaali. aap aur Vijay Sahib aik hi thaili ke chaTTe-baTTe
haiN. aap dono Punjabi haiN
varnah 'Girgit' ko 'Girgat' nah kahte.
aadaab arz hai
Baad e Siyaah
PS: UVR Sahib: Tamilian ko Madrasi kaha nah k everyone South of
Vindhyas. yeh to m'aamuli gunaah hai
Naseer
H گرگٿ गिरगिट girgiṭ, गिरगट girgaṭ, (dialec.) गिरगुट girguṭ [prob. S.
कृ+कृत्], s.m. The tree-lizard, a species of chameleon (commonly
called by Europeans 'the blood-sucker,' on account of the redness of
its throat):—girgaṭ-ke-se rang badalnā, To change colour as a
chameleon; (fig.) to turn red or pale (with rage, &c.).
Baad-e-Siyaah
> H گرگٿ गिरगिट girgiṭ, गिरगट girgaṭ, (dialec.) गिरगुट girguṭ [prob. S.
> कृ+कृत्], s.m. The tree-lizard, a species of chameleon (commonly
> called by Europeans 'the blood-sucker,' on account of the redness of
> its throat):—girgaṭ-ke-se rang badalnā, To change colour as a
> chameleon; (fig.) to turn red or pale (with rage, &c.).
ye aap Platts dikha kar kyuN dhamkaa rahe haiN?
UVR
I assume that "white" in your message refers to her race, Vijay
saahib?
There is not sufficient data to know whether your sultry Sorrentine
had confused Tamil with Telugu unless you knew where in India she had
lived. Otherwise, she might very well have lived in Coimbatore or
Chennai and might have a Tamil accent to her English. Or she might
have a Malayalam accent to it, having lived in Cochin or Trivandrum,
or a Telugu accent from Hyderabad, and so on. What we know is that
"people" tell her she has a Tamil accent, but not whether those people
are capable of distinguishing the finer differences between Telugu-
accented and Tamil-accented English or Italian! (And we should note
here that we are talking in very broad, highly general terms. In the
US, people just think of all Indian accents as "Indian"; they do not
(or are not able to) appreciate the finer points of Punjabi accent vs.
Bengali accent vs. Marathi accent vs. Tamil accent. Similarly,
someone less skilled than Naseer saahib might only identify a
particular accent as being "British", but our beloved ALUPer might be
able to tell you if the fellow speaking was from 'artford, 'ereford or
'ampshire!)
Vijay
Thanks UVR sahib for your response.
> I assume that "white" in your message refers to her race, Vijay
> saahib?
>
Indeed! She had a very nice cafe au lait complexion and dark hair that
could have been Mexican, Spanish, Latin American, Indian, or indeed,
as it turned out, Southern Italian. Now, most Italians, who have grown
up in Italy, don't lose their accent no matter how long they live away
in English speaking countries. (Sophia Loren; good example). This
lady's accent was certainly not typical Italian, just a very pleasing
mixture of English, Italian and this Tamil, Telugu or Malayalam,
whatever.
> There is not sufficient data to know whether your sultry Sorrentine
> had confused Tamil with Telugu unless you knew where in India she had
> lived.
One of my life principles is never to broach a conversation with a non-
sultry stranger:-) So I am really intrigued as to how you divined that
sultry bit:-)? Don't remember ever telling you my life principle(s):-)
>Otherwise, she might very well have lived in Coimbatore or
> Chennai and might have a Tamil accent to her English. Or she might
> have a Malayalam accent to it, having lived in Cochin or Trivandrum,
> or a Telugu accent from Hyderabad, and so on.
Thanks. I think I can recognize Malayalam accent quite well, for the
sheer accident of having a close friend who is from Kerala. It is a
very lovely accent indeed. But I will be hard pressed to tell Telugu
from Tamil (unless Mehmood in Padosan wasn't caricaturing, and that is
the true Tamil accent: in which case I am sure I can discern it. The
lady spoke nothing like that).
*Rest deleted, after reading and agreeing with everything.
Best regards,
Vijay
PS: That last part in my original post is all over the place. I
thought I wrote, '..lived in India for so long that people often
say...',
Vijay
> aap aur Vijay Sahib aik hi thaili ke chaTTe-baTTe
> haiN.
Thanks for the compliment Anil sahib, but you clearly haven't paid
much attention to the recent 'dialogue' between Naseer sahib and
me:-)
Best regards,
Vijay
Naseer
janaab-i-UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
I know that the original theme of the thread has taken a turn into
unrelated territory but what the heck!!
Thank you for the above piece of information. In the area of Punjab
that I originate from, some villages have the word "Khurd" and
"kalaaN" attached to them. Interestingly, the part of the world where
I am residing now (England), there are also villages with exactly
these attachments (in English of course). For example:
Little Staughton
Great Staughton
I am sure all ALUPers can now work out what Khurd and kalaaN mean in
Persian. To the best of my knowledge, these words are no longer in
vogue in Modern Persian. Are there places in Telugu speaking areas
which point to a Persian cultural past?
Naseer
UVR
Naseer saahib,
There do exist places with these types of names in Telugu-speaking
areas, as they do in Kannada-speaking areas, but the names always use
the native equivalents of Khurd/kalaaN, not the Persian words
themselves (Tel:chinna/pedda, Kan:chikka/doDDa). I also have my
doubts as to whether this type of name pairing points, per se, to any
overarching Persian cultural influence on Telugu or Kannada speakers
of old. When I previously spoke of the presence of Farsi-origin words
in Telugu, I was speaking solely of the etymological origins of the
words. I'm sorry if anything led you to think otherwise.
Now, I suppose one could always assert that it is impossible for one
language to have exerted that kind of influence over another without
having had a socio-political impact on the peoples that spoke the
latter. However, I don't know if *Persian* culture influenced that of
the Telugus to the same extent as the language did. It would be a
good research project for a student of linguistics or anthropology to
dig deeper into this particular matter. Perhaps this is one of the
things I will do in a few decades after I retire if I'm still around
and able :-)
-UVR.
Vijay
Adaab Naseer sahib:
Not to add anything particular, but just to wax nostalgic, I spent
about 5 years, from the age of about 3 to 8, in a place (in Indian
Punjab), called Vazidke Khurd. You can guess the name of the
neighbouring town. There was another nearby town called Mehal kallaN,
but strangely, no Mehal Khurd. Then there was a nearby village called
just, Khurd!
Vijay
Naseer
On Feb 10, 4:26 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There do exist places with these types of names in Telugu-speaking
> areas, as they do in Kannada-speaking areas, but the names always use
> the native equivalents of Khurd/kalaaN, not the Persian words
> themselves (Tel:chinna/pedda, Kan:chikka/doDDa). I also have my
> doubts as to whether this type of name pairing points, per se, to any
> overarching Persian cultural influence on Telugu or Kannada speakers
> of old. When I previously spoke of the presence of Farsi-origin words
> in Telugu, I was speaking solely of the etymological origins of the
> words. I'm sorry if anything led you to think otherwise.
No, I knew exactly what you meant. I was merely exploring one aspect
of this linguistic influence. Khurd and kalaaN (interestingly, NOT
kalaan) are just two words in place names. Almost a stone's throw away
from my village is "Aurangaabaad" and the nearest town is "Saraa-i-
Alamgiir". Another nearby town is "jaadah" which means "road" in
Persian. Twenty miles down the road, people use "baadiyah" for "bowl",
"qaashuk" for spoon, "goristaan" for graveyard.
> Now, I suppose one could always assert that it is impossible for one
> language to have exerted that kind of influence over another without
> having had a socio-political impact on the peoples that spoke the
> latter. However, I don't know if *Persian* culture influenced that of
> the Telugus to the same extent as the language did. It would be a
> good research project for a student of linguistics or anthropology to
> dig deeper into this particular matter. Perhaps this is one of the
> things I will do in a few decades after I retire if I'm still around
> and able :-)
What do you feel are the most commonly used Persian words in Telugu?
Naseer
Naseer
Thank you Vijay Sahib for this information. I am curious about
"Vazidke". Is this how it is pronounced? Can you shed some light on
this name?
Naseer
Vijay
Naseer sahib, I have often wondered about the name my-self. I was
hoping you will provide a clue. I lived there when my father was a
headmaster at the local school. The name is spelled as I have done,
and pronounced v(or W)aziidke (with ke, as kay). Vazidke kalaaN was
across the river. Can the name have a Persian root?
Regards,
Vijay
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
I think there is another alternate word (for "kalaaN") that is
used in India. And it is "Buzurg". It is fairly evident that
the two words "kalaaN" and "KHurd" are used to differentiate
between two similarly named small towns or villages, with refe-
rence to their size. "KHurd" is used with both "kalaaN" and
"Buzurg". There is no alternate for this word, AFAIK.
And while talking about Telugu and Tamil, we seem to be forget-
ting Marathi. In the Maharashtra region, there are several
small places where the word "Budruk" (as a Marathi variant of
"Buzurg") is added to the actual name of that place. And,
"Budruk" is not a typo. It really is spelt, in the D-script as
"Budruk".
Faarsi does seem to have left a deep impress on Marathi. This,
in all probability, is due to the fact that this vast region was
under Mughal or Muslim control for a long time. Shivaji himself
was part of Emperor Aurangzeb's court (as a seh~hazaari courtier)
for some time. Later, he used to carry on his correspondence
with the Emperor in Faarsi. And his letters would carry the
normal honorific titles for the Emperor, as was the custom at
the time. I am not saying that Shivaji himself knew Faarsi quite
well, though it could have been the case. Probably, his entour-
age or inner circle had people who were well-versed in Faarsi.
Even today, Marathi language contains words that seem to be
derived from Faarsi. But, I will not be able to give a list or
examples.
Afzal
Naseer
> Naseer sahib, I have often wondered about the name my-self. I was
> hoping you will provide a clue. I lived there when my father was a
> headmaster at the local school. The name is spelled as I have done,
> and pronounced v(or W)aziidke (with ke, as kay). Vazidke kalaaN was
> across the river. Can the name have a Persian root?
Vijay Sahib, Good Morning!
I was looking at a map of Punjab and beyond and it appears that Khurd
and kalaaN are much more widespread.
I do not know the meaning of the suffix -ke as in Vazid-ke but there
are other place names with the suffix -ke as in Muriid-ke north of
Lahore.
As for "Vazid" or "Wazid", I do think it stands for "Vajid" or "Wajid"
as in "Waajid Ali Shah". I say this because when I was searching for
"Vazid", I found this word along with Wazid and in places with "Wajid/
Vajid" in brackets. We Punjabis occasionally try to be "ultra correct"
and get it wrong sometimes. For example:-
phir>>>>>fir (Then)
jum'ah >>> zuma (Friday)
gunDah>>>>GhunDah ( I think, here it is not just the Punjabis)
akhaaNR ( I think, meaning "kahaavat")>>>> Khaan
What do you think?
Naseer
Vijay
> Vijay Sahib, Good Morning!
Aadaab Naseer sahib:
You can enter the name in Google earth and zoom right in to Vazidke
Khurd and kalaaN, but for some reason Google has spelt it Bazidke.
South of it and slightly to the West is Barnala, my ancestral city,
the name of which also has Persian roots. I was told it is from
'burn', which in Farsi means a 'cave'?. So seemingly the name came
from 'the cave of Baba "Ala" Singh'. You will also find another
village near by called Hamidi!
>
> I do not know the meaning of the suffix -ke as in Vazid-ke but there
> are other place names with the suffix -ke as in Muriid-ke north of
> Lahore.
You are likely right about Vazid connexion. I am also stumped by 'ke'.
It may just be the equivalent of Panjabi 'de', meaning 'of'. As in,
'chalo, vazid 'ke' (ghar) chaleN'! ?
>
> As for "Vazid" or "Wazid", I do think it stands for "Vajid" or "Wajid"
> as in "Waajid Ali Shah". I say this because when I was searching for
> "Vazid", I found this word along with Wazid and in places with "Wajid/
> Vajid" in brackets. We Punjabis occasionally try to be "ultra correct"
> and get it wrong sometimes.
>
Gurmukhi script for hundreds of years, only had 35 letters and is
still called 'paiNtii', the Panjabi word for 35. It was missing all
the z, sh, q, f, Kh sounds that were added much later by adding a
nuqta underneath the equivalent letters; J with a nuqta underneath,
for example, became 'z'. For hundreds of years, however, trade
between Persia and Panjab continued and Persian words and sounds were
simply converted to available Gurmukhi sounds. So Qismat was Kismat,
barfi, barphii etc. There were generations of Panjabis reared on
Gurmukhi script whose vocal chords just weren't equipped to pronounce
these sounds and they would always say saaki, jauk etc. After the
added letters, a slow change started to occur but to-date, people (me
included) often over correct and can still call kaaba, qaaba; darjah,
darzah, for instance. So, yes, I agree, that these 'enthusiastic'
overcorrections are still all to common.
Regards,
Vijay
Naseer
Thank you very much indeed for the additional insight into Persian
influence into Marathi. The obvious opposite for "buzurg" is
"kuuchak", but as you have indicated, it does not seem to be used for
place names. Other common Persian endings in place names are:
pur/por (son)
aabaad (settlement)
shahr 9as in Buland-shahr)
ganj (treasure) etc
Naseer
Naseer
On Feb 12, 11:49 am, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You can enter the name in Google earth and zoom right in to Vazidke
> Khurd and kalaaN, but for some reason Google has spelt it Bazidke.
> South of it and slightly to the West is Barnala, my ancestral city,
> the name of which also has Persian roots. I was told it is from
> 'burn', which in Farsi means a 'cave'?. So seemingly the name came
> from 'the cave of Baba "Ala" Singh'. You will also find another
> village near by called Hamidi!
Actually I had found the location last night although "Little Bazidke"
seems to be getting bigger than the square shaped "Great Bazidke"! It
is on the right hand side heading towards Burnala on the Burnala Road
(between Sangera and Burnala). There is a Burnala in Pakistan too, but
that place is very Khurd! Whilst carrying out a search on these names
I found a person called Rahmat Ali Wajidke!
I am not aware of "burn" to mean a cave in Persian. However there is a
word "barnaa" (or burnaa) which means a young man/youth.
tavaanaa buvad har kih daanaa buvad
zi daanish dil-i-piir burnaa buvad
Firdausi
tavaanaa hotaa hai jo daanaa hove
daanish se buuRhaa dil javaan hove
In my youth, we had a tree called "barnaa" in our siHn. I don't know
if this word has anything to do with Barnala.
> > I do not know the meaning of the suffix -ke as in Vazid-ke but there
> > are other place names with the suffix -ke as in Muriid-ke north of
> > Lahore.
>
> You are likely right about Vazid connexion. I am also stumped by 'ke'.
> It may just be the equivalent of Panjabi 'de', meaning 'of'. As in,
> 'chalo, vazid 'ke' (ghar) chaleN'! ?
You could be right about -ke. But, don't forget that there is a -kii
suffix too! As in KaamoN-kii, Patto-kii.
I think we should stop this conversation before we are subjected to
some serious rebuke!
Naseer
UVR
>
> What do you feel are the most commonly used Persian words in Telugu?
>
> Naseer
There are many, Naseer saahib. aadaab. Some have become such an
integral part of everyday spoken Telugu that they are used by
everyone, from the rickwhawpuller to the literateur without a second
thought as to their origin. Examples include words like "asalu (asl),
aakhari (aaKhiri), jebu (jeb), kaagitam (kaaGhaz), kaburu (Khabar),
kurchee (kursee), khareedu (Khareed) ...". My grandmother was fond of
using an "amaandasta" in her kitchen to pound black pepper seeds and
cardmom pod (I'll let you figure out the original word).
Now, you might point out that many of these words are not Farsi words,
per se, but I will assert that, to Telugu these are, for Farsi is
where they came to Telugu from. In recent decades, some of these
words may have may have been replaced in the everyday speech of youth
and children with their English words (jebu with paakeT or aakhari
with laasTu, etc), but I think that's no different from, say, what is
happening with Hindi or Urdu.
And as an "aakhari" word, since you like music, here's a 50 year-old
Telugu film song with no less than 4 Arabic/Persian-origin words in
its chorus (mukhda) -- let's see how many you can identify and guess
the originals of --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEPAtHowL7A
The video is a bit grainy, but the audio isn't too bad. And oh, I
know you'll get the first word quite easily!
-UVR.
Naseer
On Feb 14, 3:36 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And as an "aakhari" word, since you like music, here's a 50 year-old
> Telugu film song with no less than 4 Arabic/Persian-origin words in
> its chorus (mukhda) -- let's see how many you can identify and guess
> the originals of --
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEPAtHowL7A
>
> The video is a bit grainy, but the audio isn't too bad. And oh, I
> know you'll get the first word quite easily!
I am afraid I will have to admit defeat. I know the opening words were
"Khushii Khushii" and MajnuuN and Lailaa were mentioned in dispatches
but this is all that my ears could tune into. You will have to divulge
the full list and I shall then listen out for them.
Naseer
UVR
Naseer saahib, aadaab 'arz hai. I apologize for the extended delay
in responding to your last post.
MajnuuN and Lailaa! I must say I am impressed beyond words. I did
not expect you would last that long into the song. But did you happen
to notice how the word "majnuuN" was pronounced? "mazunoo". An
example of "over-corrected" talaffuz, wouldn't you say?
For the words in the mukhda, I would like to draw your attention to
the *first* words of the four lines sung by the male voice:
khushee-khushee gaa ... (from Khushi), here, meaning happily, gaily
chalaaki ... (from chaalaak), here, meaning something like
interesting, captivating
hushaaru gaa ... (hoshyaar), here, meaning playfully, joyfully active
nishaa ... (nasha), here, meaning intoxicating
I hope you will excuse the brevity of this message.
-UVR.