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A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content
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Irfan Abid
Nov 12, 2016, 3:08:59 PM11/12/16
to
aadaab, dosto!
maiN ne RMIM group par ek mazmoon ba-unvaan "A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content" chaspaaN kiyaa hai jo shaayad aap ko pasand aaye. agar vaqt mile to mulaahiza farmaaiye aur apnii raae se navaaziye. mazmoon kaa link haazir hai:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.indian.misc/bGnyPdfqAZc
niyaazmand,
Irfan :Abid:
maiN ne RMIM group par ek mazmoon ba-unvaan "A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content" chaspaaN kiyaa hai jo shaayad aap ko pasand aaye. agar vaqt mile to mulaahiza farmaaiye aur apnii raae se navaaziye. mazmoon kaa link haazir hai:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.indian.misc/bGnyPdfqAZc
niyaazmand,
Irfan :Abid:
Naseer
Nov 12, 2016, 5:06:25 PM11/12/16
to
Irfan SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.
Thank you for your detailed and well-researched article on the subject of "A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content" and it was indeed fascinating reading. You have no doubt put a lot of time and effort in writing this article for which you deserve gratitude from every lover of Bollywood songs. Connoisseurs of Urdu poetry and Bollywood films, like Afzal SaaHib, no doubt would have much more considered opinion about your article but nevertheless, I would like to make a few points.
"In fact, during this time the lyricists began using a mixture of Urdu and literary Hindi that had an almost equal proportion of the two constituents – something that would blur the line between the two languages over time. This development was not limited to Bollywood. Even outside of Bollywood, these two languages, which originated from different sources (Urdu from Persian and Arabic, and Hindi from Sanskrit), were borrowing heavily from each other and coming closer and closer."
I believe it is an accepted fact that both Urdu and literary Hindi (jab ko'ii tumhaaraa hradaya toR de*) have their foundation in KhaRi-Boli. It is Persian/Arabic vocabulary along with their idioms that made KhaRi-Boli into Urdu and direct borrowing from Sanskrit which made the same Khari-Boli into what is often termed as Modern Hindi.
"Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
The myth that this kind of sentence has its basis in the Punjabi speaking world is just a myth. Please see post dated 26th February 2016 of the following thread which should convince you that this construction has its origins amongst the Urdu speakers of Delhi. So, Anand Bakshi is just following the Delhi School of Urdu.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
"Kasme Vaade Karz Kudrat Kareeb...". I am assuming you have spelt the names of these films with a "K" because that is how Hindi speakers might spell them(?). I believe you meant to write "KasmeN" and not "kasme". Also perhaps you meant to write "maujaaN hi maujaaN".
"In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
"And the worst part is that their work is not being critiqued even by those who should. Songs like “hum tere bin” (Aashiqui 2) and “suno na” (Youngistaan) are being nominated for “best lyrics” award despite having flaws. In the “hum tere bin” song the writer uses “hum” and “mera” for the same person in the same line whereas “hum” could have easily been replaced by “main.” This mismatch of pronouns is present elsewhere in the lyrics. In the same song, in the first two lines of the first stanza the writer seems to be rhyming the word “nahin” with “kabhi.”
I am sure you would already be well aware of the concept of "shutur-gurbah" in Urdu poetry where pronouns are mixed up. These writers are perhaps keeping alight one aspect of Urdu poetry!:-) With regard to "kabhii" being rhymed with "nahiiN", is n't there a precedence of this in Shauq Lakhnavii's poetry?
ko'ii martaa hai kyoN? balaa jaane
ham bahuu betiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
.......
* "ko'ii jab tumhaaraa..." song has dar, sar, daaman, javaanii, shart and nazar. So, I don't believe this song is a good example of the Hindi song. In the "yih dunyaa yih maHfil" song, I think the only word which one could say is not regular Urdu is "parbat". Apart from that I could n't think of any other word that would put this song in the category where the Urdu/Hindi line is difficult to draw.
Best Wishes,
Naseer
Thank you for your detailed and well-researched article on the subject of "A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content" and it was indeed fascinating reading. You have no doubt put a lot of time and effort in writing this article for which you deserve gratitude from every lover of Bollywood songs. Connoisseurs of Urdu poetry and Bollywood films, like Afzal SaaHib, no doubt would have much more considered opinion about your article but nevertheless, I would like to make a few points.
"In fact, during this time the lyricists began using a mixture of Urdu and literary Hindi that had an almost equal proportion of the two constituents – something that would blur the line between the two languages over time. This development was not limited to Bollywood. Even outside of Bollywood, these two languages, which originated from different sources (Urdu from Persian and Arabic, and Hindi from Sanskrit), were borrowing heavily from each other and coming closer and closer."
I believe it is an accepted fact that both Urdu and literary Hindi (jab ko'ii tumhaaraa hradaya toR de*) have their foundation in KhaRi-Boli. It is Persian/Arabic vocabulary along with their idioms that made KhaRi-Boli into Urdu and direct borrowing from Sanskrit which made the same Khari-Boli into what is often termed as Modern Hindi.
"Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
The myth that this kind of sentence has its basis in the Punjabi speaking world is just a myth. Please see post dated 26th February 2016 of the following thread which should convince you that this construction has its origins amongst the Urdu speakers of Delhi. So, Anand Bakshi is just following the Delhi School of Urdu.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
"Kasme Vaade Karz Kudrat Kareeb...". I am assuming you have spelt the names of these films with a "K" because that is how Hindi speakers might spell them(?). I believe you meant to write "KasmeN" and not "kasme". Also perhaps you meant to write "maujaaN hi maujaaN".
"In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
"And the worst part is that their work is not being critiqued even by those who should. Songs like “hum tere bin” (Aashiqui 2) and “suno na” (Youngistaan) are being nominated for “best lyrics” award despite having flaws. In the “hum tere bin” song the writer uses “hum” and “mera” for the same person in the same line whereas “hum” could have easily been replaced by “main.” This mismatch of pronouns is present elsewhere in the lyrics. In the same song, in the first two lines of the first stanza the writer seems to be rhyming the word “nahin” with “kabhi.”
I am sure you would already be well aware of the concept of "shutur-gurbah" in Urdu poetry where pronouns are mixed up. These writers are perhaps keeping alight one aspect of Urdu poetry!:-) With regard to "kabhii" being rhymed with "nahiiN", is n't there a precedence of this in Shauq Lakhnavii's poetry?
ko'ii martaa hai kyoN? balaa jaane
ham bahuu betiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
.......
* "ko'ii jab tumhaaraa..." song has dar, sar, daaman, javaanii, shart and nazar. So, I don't believe this song is a good example of the Hindi song. In the "yih dunyaa yih maHfil" song, I think the only word which one could say is not regular Urdu is "parbat". Apart from that I could n't think of any other word that would put this song in the category where the Urdu/Hindi line is difficult to draw.
Best Wishes,
Naseer
Irfan Abid
Nov 17, 2016, 7:13:55 PM11/17/16
to
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 5:40:45 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Irfan SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.
>
> Thank you for your detailed and well-researched article on the subject of "A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content" and it was indeed fascinating reading. You have no doubt put a lot of time and effort in writing this article for which you deserve gratitude from every lover of Bollywood songs. Connoisseurs of Urdu poetry and Bollywood films, like Afzal SaaHib, no doubt would have much more considered opinion about your article but nevertheless, I would like to make a few points.
>
Naseer sb, aadaab!
> Irfan SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.
>
> Thank you for your detailed and well-researched article on the subject of "A Brief History of Bollywood Lyrics: Writers, Language and Content" and it was indeed fascinating reading. You have no doubt put a lot of time and effort in writing this article for which you deserve gratitude from every lover of Bollywood songs. Connoisseurs of Urdu poetry and Bollywood films, like Afzal SaaHib, no doubt would have much more considered opinion about your article but nevertheless, I would like to make a few points.
>
It is so nice to hear from you after a long time. Hope all is well at your end. Thank you so much for your kind words of appreciation and your esteemed comments.
> "In fact, during this time the lyricists began using a mixture of Urdu and literary Hindi that had an almost equal proportion of the two constituents – something that would blur the line between the two languages over time. This development was not limited to Bollywood. Even outside of Bollywood, these two languages, which originated from different sources (Urdu from Persian and Arabic, and Hindi from Sanskrit), were borrowing heavily from each other and coming closer and closer."
>
>
You are absolutely right about the foundation of both Urdu and literary Hindi being khadi boli as far as the syntax is concerned. However, when I say “language” in my article, I am generally referring to vocabulary. I think I should have been more specific about this in the article.
> "Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
>
I reviewed some information at the link you provided, but not all (I will, when time permits.) Assuming that your research is correct (and I know you are very dependable in this regard) and that such a dialect was born in Delhi out of people not originally from Punjab, I am wondering how it reached and was adopted by the Punjabis of today and why no other community other than Punjabis uses this dialect. Any thoughts? In any case, since this dialect is now primarily practiced by Punjabis, I think the statement in the article is still valid. :)
> "Kasme Vaade Karz Kudrat Kareeb...". I am assuming you have spelt the names of these films with a "K" because that is how Hindi speakers might spell them(?). I believe you meant to write "KasmeN" and not "kasme". Also perhaps you meant to write "maujaaN hi maujaaN".
>
> "In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
>
> Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
>
> "And the worst part is that their work is not being critiqued even by those who should. Songs like “hum tere bin” (Aashiqui 2) and “suno na” (Youngistaan) are being nominated for “best lyrics” award despite having flaws. In the “hum tere bin” song the writer uses “hum” and “mera” for the same person in the same line whereas “hum” could have easily been replaced by “main.” This mismatch of pronouns is present elsewhere in the lyrics. In the same song, in the first two lines of the first stanza the writer seems to be rhyming the word “nahin” with “kabhi.”
>
> I am sure you would already be well aware of the concept of "shutur-gurbah" in Urdu poetry where pronouns are mixed up. These writers are perhaps keeping alight one aspect of Urdu poetry!:-) With regard to "kabhii" being rhymed with "nahiiN", is n't there a precedence of this in Shauq Lakhnavii's poetry?
>
> ko'ii martaa hai kyoN? balaa jaane
> ham bahuu betiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
>
> .......
Regarding the use of “jaaneN” and “jaane” in place of each other, I must say that although I wouldn’t do so in my poetry, I can digest it because of the structure of these words. The ending sound in both the words is primarily determined by “noon” and “baRi ye” and “noon-e-Ghunnah” hardly has a role in the phonetics of these words. That is why both sound almost alike. That is not the case with “kabhii” and “nahiiN.”
>
> * "ko'ii jab tumhaaraa..." song has dar, sar, daaman, javaanii, shart and nazar. So, I don't believe this song is a good example of the Hindi song. In the "yih dunyaa yih maHfil" song, I think the only word which one could say is not regular Urdu is "parbat". Apart from that I could n't think of any other word that would put this song in the category where the Urdu/Hindi line is difficult to draw.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Naseer
Thanks a lot once again for your appreciation and comments. Hope you will keep blessing me like this in the future.
Sincerely,
Irfan
Naseer
Nov 18, 2016, 5:06:06 PM11/18/16
to
Irfan SaaHib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat
On Friday, 18 November 2016 00:13:55 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> > "Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
> >
> > The myth that this kind of sentence has its basis in the Punjabi speaking world is just a myth. Please see post dated 26th February 2016 of the following thread which should convince you that this construction has its origins amongst the Urdu speakers of Delhi. So, Anand Bakhshi is just following the Delhi School of Urdu.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
> >
>
> I reviewed some information at the link you provided, but not all (I will, when time permits.) Assuming that your research is correct (and I know you are very dependable in this regard) and that such a dialect was born in Delhi out of people not originally from Punjab, I am wondering how it reached and was adopted by the Punjabis of today and why no other community other than Punjabis uses this dialect. Any thoughts? In any case, since this dialect is now primarily practiced by Punjabis, I think the statement in the article is still valid. :)
Firstly Irfan SaaHib I would n't describe those who use "maiN ne jaanaa hai" as people speaking a another "dialect". How this usage went to Punjab from Delhi is quite simple to explain. Punjab's proximity to Delhi is one factor. Urdu speakers travelling to the Punjab, especially its main urban centres like Lahore (especially literary figures such as Altaf Hussain Hali and Maulana Muhammad Hussain Azad) is another factor. Thirdly, in post partition Punjab of Pakistan, Urdu is the language taught from primary school onwards. So, relatively speaking, a very large population is speaking and writing Urdu. This could explain its widespread usage among the Punjabi speaking peoples.
I am afraid I don't subscribe to your logic that as a large number of Punjabis employ this construction, one can place this construction squarely on this community alone. Truth of the matter is that people like Iftikhar Arif (Lucknow), Ubaidullah Baig (Rampur) and Hasina Mo'een (Kanpur) have been heard uttering this construction. If you go on YouTube and listen to people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds from both Pakistan and India, you will hear this construction. I do not wish to say much more on this topic as this is likely to deflect readers' attention from your central theme. For sources (including page numbers oof books and times on YouTube), you may wish to read, at your leisure, my previously provided link.
>
> > "In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
> >
> > Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
> >
>
> The first part of the text you quoted from the article (Hindi being more dominant in the language) is actually about “the rest of the newcomers” of 70’s except Gulzar (i.e. Yogesh, Amit Khanna, Maya Govind and Santosh Anand.) But the examples of songs cover ALL writers who were active in the 70’s. You are right about “yeh duniya” being primarily an Urdu song. “kya hua” can also be treated the same way. But I don’t know if “chalte chalte” is a Urdu song or Hindi.
>
Irfan SaaHib, I have only listened to these three songs. Perhaps if I listened to the rest of them on your list, I might have the same view about a vast majority of them. In my humble view, a very very few songs can be placed in the same category of Hindi as, for example, the language employed by Premchand in the article below.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/shacklesnell/315premchand.pdf
As for the "chalte chalete" song, frankly I am at a loss as to why you would not categorise it as Urdu. There is n't one "hrdaya" type word in the song. I can't imagine, although I could be wrong, there are too many Hindi speakers who would use "sar-i-raah", "shab-i-intizaar", muxtasar", "aaxir" and "charaaGh"
in their vocabulary let alone pronounce the "z", "x" and "Gh" sounds correctly. I believe Pakeeza was one of the very few "Hindi" films that the censor board chose to categorise it as Urdu. Is this true?
Best wishes,
Naseer
On Friday, 18 November 2016 00:13:55 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> > "Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
> >
> > The myth that this kind of sentence has its basis in the Punjabi speaking world is just a myth. Please see post dated 26th February 2016 of the following thread which should convince you that this construction has its origins amongst the Urdu speakers of Delhi. So, Anand Bakhshi is just following the Delhi School of Urdu.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
> >
>
> I reviewed some information at the link you provided, but not all (I will, when time permits.) Assuming that your research is correct (and I know you are very dependable in this regard) and that such a dialect was born in Delhi out of people not originally from Punjab, I am wondering how it reached and was adopted by the Punjabis of today and why no other community other than Punjabis uses this dialect. Any thoughts? In any case, since this dialect is now primarily practiced by Punjabis, I think the statement in the article is still valid. :)
I am afraid I don't subscribe to your logic that as a large number of Punjabis employ this construction, one can place this construction squarely on this community alone. Truth of the matter is that people like Iftikhar Arif (Lucknow), Ubaidullah Baig (Rampur) and Hasina Mo'een (Kanpur) have been heard uttering this construction. If you go on YouTube and listen to people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds from both Pakistan and India, you will hear this construction. I do not wish to say much more on this topic as this is likely to deflect readers' attention from your central theme. For sources (including page numbers oof books and times on YouTube), you may wish to read, at your leisure, my previously provided link.
>
> > "In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
> >
> > Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
> >
>
> The first part of the text you quoted from the article (Hindi being more dominant in the language) is actually about “the rest of the newcomers” of 70’s except Gulzar (i.e. Yogesh, Amit Khanna, Maya Govind and Santosh Anand.) But the examples of songs cover ALL writers who were active in the 70’s. You are right about “yeh duniya” being primarily an Urdu song. “kya hua” can also be treated the same way. But I don’t know if “chalte chalte” is a Urdu song or Hindi.
>
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/shacklesnell/315premchand.pdf
As for the "chalte chalete" song, frankly I am at a loss as to why you would not categorise it as Urdu. There is n't one "hrdaya" type word in the song. I can't imagine, although I could be wrong, there are too many Hindi speakers who would use "sar-i-raah", "shab-i-intizaar", muxtasar", "aaxir" and "charaaGh"
in their vocabulary let alone pronounce the "z", "x" and "Gh" sounds correctly. I believe Pakeeza was one of the very few "Hindi" films that the censor board chose to categorise it as Urdu. Is this true?
Best wishes,
Naseer
Message has been deleted
Irfan Abid
Nov 19, 2016, 11:09:16 AM11/19/16
to
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 5:17:21 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Irfan SaaHib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat
>
Naseer sb, aadaab!
Thanks for the reply.
>
> On Friday, 18 November 2016 00:13:55 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> > > "Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
> > >
> > > The myth that this kind of sentence has its basis in the Punjabi speaking world is just a myth. Please see post dated 26th February 2016 of the following thread which should convince you that this construction has its origins amongst the Urdu speakers of Delhi. So, Anand Bakhshi is just following the Delhi School of Urdu.
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
> > >
> >
> > I reviewed some information at the link you provided, but not all (I will, when time permits.) Assuming that your research is correct (and I know you are very dependable in this regard) and that such a dialect was born in Delhi out of people not originally from Punjab, I am wondering how it reached and was adopted by the Punjabis of today and why no other community other than Punjabis uses this dialect. Any thoughts? In any case, since this dialect is now primarily practiced by Punjabis, I think the statement in the article is still valid. :)
>
> Firstly Irfan SaaHib I would n't describe those who use "maiN ne jaanaa hai" as people speaking another "dialect". How this usage went to Punjab from Delhi is quite simple to explain. Punjab's proximity to Delhi is one factor. Urdu speakers travelling to the Punjab, especially its main urban centres like Lahore (especially literary figures such as Altaf Hussain Hali and Maulana Muhammad Hussain Azad) is another factor. Thirdly, in post partition Punjab of Pakistan, Urdu is the language taught from primary school onwards. So, relatively speaking, a very large population is speaking and writing Urdu. This could explain its widespread usage among the Punjabi speaking peoples.
>
> I am afraid I don't subscribe to your logic that as a large number of Punjabis employ this construction, one can place this construction squarely on this community's shoulders alone. Truth of the matter is that people like Iftikhar Arif (Lucknow), Ubaidullah Baig (Rampur) and Hasina Mo'een (Kanpur) have been heard uttering this construction. If you go on YouTube and listen to people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds from both Pakistan and India, you will hear this construction. I do not wish to say much more on this topic as this is likely to deflect readers' attention from your central theme. For sources (including page numbers of books and times on YouTube), you may wish to read, at your leisure, my previously provided link.
>
Naseer sb, I was born and raised in UP. I moved to US when I was around thirty. I have traveled all over UP and continue to visit there even after migration. I have friends and relatives from all three cities you have mentioned. I assure you that the people in these areas do not use the literal construct under focus here. The examples you have cited are exceptions, not the rule. On the other hand, almost all of my friends from Punjab (both Indian and Pakistani sides) use it. But as you said, this is not the main topic of my article so let us leave it at that.
> >
> > > "In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
> > >
> > > Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
> > >
> >
> > The first part of the text you quoted from the article (Hindi being more dominant in the language) is actually about “the rest of the newcomers” of 70’s except Gulzar (i.e. Yogesh, Amit Khanna, Maya Govind and Santosh Anand.) But the examples of songs cover ALL writers who were active in the 70’s. You are right about “yeh duniya” being primarily an Urdu song. “kya hua” can also be treated the same way. But I don’t know if “chalte chalte” is a Urdu song or Hindi.
> >
>
> Irfan SaaHib, I have only listened to these three songs. Perhaps if I listened to the rest of them on your list, I might have the same view about a vast majority of them. In my humble view, a very very few songs can be placed in the same category of Hindi as, for example, the language employed by Premchand in the article below.
>
> http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/shacklesnell/315premchand.pdf
>
> As for the "chalte chalte" song, frankly I am at a loss as to why you would not categorise it as Urdu. There is n't one "hrdaya" type word in the song. I can't imagine, although I could be wrong, there are too many Hindi speakers who would use "sar-i-raah", "shab-i-intizaar", muxtasar", "aaxir" and "charaaGh"
You are right. The Censor Board of Film Certification (CBFC) certified Pakeezah as an Urdu language movie. See the certification details on their website here: http://cbfcindia.gov.in/html/uniquepage.aspx?unique_page_id=20
> Best wishes,
>
> Naseer
Regards,
Irfan
> Irfan SaaHib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat
>
Naseer sb, aadaab!
Thanks for the reply.
>
> On Friday, 18 November 2016 00:13:55 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
> > > "Anand Bakhshi injected the Punjabi dialect of Urdu-Hindi mix in songs like “tumse o Hasina kabhi muhabbat na maine karni thi.”
> > >
> > > The myth that this kind of sentence has its basis in the Punjabi speaking world is just a myth. Please see post dated 26th February 2016 of the following thread which should convince you that this construction has its origins amongst the Urdu speakers of Delhi. So, Anand Bakhshi is just following the Delhi School of Urdu.
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/maiN$20ne$20jaanaa$20hai%7Csort:relevance/alt.language.urdu.poetry/LHsukHBuYxM/gOVJOnL_CgAJ
> > >
> >
> > I reviewed some information at the link you provided, but not all (I will, when time permits.) Assuming that your research is correct (and I know you are very dependable in this regard) and that such a dialect was born in Delhi out of people not originally from Punjab, I am wondering how it reached and was adopted by the Punjabis of today and why no other community other than Punjabis uses this dialect. Any thoughts? In any case, since this dialect is now primarily practiced by Punjabis, I think the statement in the article is still valid. :)
>
>
> I am afraid I don't subscribe to your logic that as a large number of Punjabis employ this construction, one can place this construction squarely on this community's shoulders alone. Truth of the matter is that people like Iftikhar Arif (Lucknow), Ubaidullah Baig (Rampur) and Hasina Mo'een (Kanpur) have been heard uttering this construction. If you go on YouTube and listen to people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds from both Pakistan and India, you will hear this construction. I do not wish to say much more on this topic as this is likely to deflect readers' attention from your central theme. For sources (including page numbers of books and times on YouTube), you may wish to read, at your leisure, my previously provided link.
>
Naseer sb, I was born and raised in UP. I moved to US when I was around thirty. I have traveled all over UP and continue to visit there even after migration. I have friends and relatives from all three cities you have mentioned. I assure you that the people in these areas do not use the literal construct under focus here. The examples you have cited are exceptions, not the rule. On the other hand, almost all of my friends from Punjab (both Indian and Pakistani sides) use it. But as you said, this is not the main topic of my article so let us leave it at that.
> >
> > > "In the case of these lyricists, although it would be safe to say that Hindi was slightly more dominant in their language than Urdu, the fact is that it was difficult to tell as to which constituent was dominant because, as mentioned earlier in this article, the line between Urdu and Hindi was getting more and more obscure now. Examples of songs from the 1970’s include “kya hua tera wada” (Hum Kisise Kum Nahin), “hum tum ek kamre mein” (Bobby), “mere dil mein” (Daag), “pal pal dil ke paas” (Blackmail), “zindagi ek safar” (Andaz), “ye duniya ye mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), “zindagi ka safar” (Safar), “jai bolo” (Be-Imaan), “koi hota” (Mere Apne), “zindagi kaisi hai paheli” (Anand), “chalte chalte” (Chalte Chalte), “naino mein darpan” (Aarop) and “main na bhoolunga” (Roti Kapda Aur Makan.)"
> > >
> > > Of the songs you have listed in this paragraph, I listened to "kyaa hu'aa teraa va3dah","yih dunyaa yih maHfil"* and "chalte chalte". I would put all these songs in the Urdu category without any hesitation.
> > >
> >
> > The first part of the text you quoted from the article (Hindi being more dominant in the language) is actually about “the rest of the newcomers” of 70’s except Gulzar (i.e. Yogesh, Amit Khanna, Maya Govind and Santosh Anand.) But the examples of songs cover ALL writers who were active in the 70’s. You are right about “yeh duniya” being primarily an Urdu song. “kya hua” can also be treated the same way. But I don’t know if “chalte chalte” is a Urdu song or Hindi.
> >
>
> Irfan SaaHib, I have only listened to these three songs. Perhaps if I listened to the rest of them on your list, I might have the same view about a vast majority of them. In my humble view, a very very few songs can be placed in the same category of Hindi as, for example, the language employed by Premchand in the article below.
>
> http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/shacklesnell/315premchand.pdf
>
> in their vocabulary let alone pronounce the "z", "x" and "Gh" sounds correctly. I believe Pakeeza was one of the very few "Hindi" films that the censor board chose to categorise it as Urdu. Is this true?
>
Ah, this explains it. You are talking about the song “chalte chalte yuun hi koi” from Pakeezah whereas I had quoted the song “chalte chalte mere ye geet” from the movie Chalte Chalte (1976.)
>
You are right. The Censor Board of Film Certification (CBFC) certified Pakeezah as an Urdu language movie. See the certification details on their website here: http://cbfcindia.gov.in/html/uniquepage.aspx?unique_page_id=20
> Best wishes,
>
> Naseer
Regards,
Irfan
Naseer
Nov 19, 2016, 12:35:10 PM11/19/16
to
On Saturday, 19 November 2016 16:09:16 UTC, Irfan Abid wrote:
>
> Naseer sb, I was born and raised in UP. I moved to US when I was around thirty. I have traveled all over UP and continue to visit there even after migration. I have friends and relatives from all three cities you have mentioned. I assure you that the people in these areas do not use the literal construct under focus here. The examples you have cited are exceptions, not the rule. On the other hand, almost all of my friends from Punjab (both Indian and Pakistani sides) use it. But as you said, this is not the main topic of my article so let us leave it at that.
>
> > >
Irfan SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> Naseer sb, I was born and raised in UP. I moved to US when I was around thirty. I have traveled all over UP and continue to visit there even after migration. I have friends and relatives from all three cities you have mentioned. I assure you that the people in these areas do not use the literal construct under focus here. The examples you have cited are exceptions, not the rule. On the other hand, almost all of my friends from Punjab (both Indian and Pakistani sides) use it. But as you said, this is not the main topic of my article so let us leave it at that.
>
> > >
I hope that at the very least, when you do get the chance to read fully the link I posted, I have been able to convince you (and other readers) that this construction is born from within the Urdu speaking community. I shall listen out for people using this construction and note down their ethnic origin if possible. The problem is, as you will appreciate, that it is not always possible (for me at least) to identify the speaker's ethnic or geographical origins.
> Ah, this explains it. You are talking about the song “chalte chalte yuun hi koi” from Pakeezah whereas I had quoted the song “chalte chalte mere ye geet” from the movie Chalte Chalte (1976.)
>
I hope other friends from both ALUP and RMIM participate in your thread and comment on your impressive scholarly article.
Best Wishes,
Naseer
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