A sher by Iqbal
Naheed Rana
rajkp...@my-deja.com
In article <4SB04.3011$t12.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
"Naheed Rana" <nahe...@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
------------
hairat hai ke abhi tak kisi ALUPer ne aap ki is farmaa'ish ki taraf
dhyaan naheeN diya. maiN to jaan-boojh kar peechhe haT gayaa tha taake
Irfaan Sahib, jinheN Urdu shaa'iri ki hifaazat ki shadeed fikr rehti
hai, aage aate aur aap ke bheje huye she'r par kuchh raushni Daalte.
magar lagta hai ke un ki masroofiyat ne unheN aisa karne naheeN diya.
aur yeh bhi mumkin hai ke voh, guzashta tajrube ki binaa par, ab Iqbal
ke ash'aar ko haath lagaane se Darte hoN! :-))
to, chaliye, maiN hi apni samajh ke mutaabiq is she'r ke baare meiN aap
ko apni raaye se muttelaa' karta hooN. First of all, let me re-write it
my way:
vaa'e naakaami! mataa'-e-kaarvaaN jaata rahaa
kaarvaaN ke dil se ehsaas-e-ziyaaN jaata rahaa
ehsaas-e-ziyaaN = realization of a loss
mataa' = precious things, valuables, daulat, jaa'e-daad, sarmaayah, ----
First of all, I am baffled to see Iqbal use mataa' as masculine. Yes,
maal-o-mataa' IS a masculine phrase --- but mataa', standing alone, is a
feminine noun. I have got it checked at four different places!
Note that the subject in the first line is mataa', not kaarvaaN; so,
regardless of the gender of kaarvaaN, the verb here must conform to the
gender of mataa', which Iqbal has chosen to use as masculine. I wonder,
why?
Nevertheless, the message of this she'r is vital. You know, kaarvaaN
refers to a 'group of people on the move'. Depending on the context, it
could mean a nation, a community, a tribe, or whatever. In the course of
time, because of causes both internal and external, things happen which
make the kaarvaaN suffer some important losses --- which may be of a
social, cultural or political nature. Now, so long as the people
constituting the kaarvaaN REALIZE what they are losing, there is some
hope that they will do something to change the situation for the better.
This REALIZATION (of loss) is what Iqbal refers to as mataa'-e-kaarvaaN.
And he is saying that aihl-e-kaarvaaN, agarche nuqsaanaat uThaa rahe
haiN magar phir bhi --- agar un ke dil-o-dimaagh meiN in nuqsaanaat ka
ehsaas qaa'im rehta to --- un ki haalat sudharne ki kuchh ummeed ki jaa
sakti thi. magar ab to voh is ehsaas ko hi, jo ke (aek tarah se) un ka
sarmaayah tha, kho baiThe haiN; to, is soorat meiN, voh ba-dastoor
nuqsaanaat uThaate chale jaayeN ge magar apni behtari ke liye koi qadam
naheeN uThaa paayeN ge. What a pity! vaa'e, naakaami!
This is how I understand this she'r. I hope it makes sense.
khair-andesh, Raj Kumar
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Naheed Rana
>hairat hai ke abhi tak kisi ALUPer ne aap ki is farmaa'ish ki taraf
>dhyaan naheeN diya.
Well..dair aayad, durust aayad :-)) Bohat shukria sher par apni raa'e
dainay ka, aur usay behter taur par likhna ka bhi.
Yeah, the message of the sher IS vital, du lino main itni bari haqiqat bayan
ki hai Iqbal nain (though, hamin sumjhnay kay liay pora page parnah para
:-)).
Naheed
rajkp...@my-deja.com
"Naheed Rana" <nahe...@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>
> >hairat hai ke abhi tak kisi ALUPer ne aap ki is farmaa'ish ki taraf
> >dhyaan naheeN diya.
>
> Well..dair aayad, durust aayad :-)) Bohat shukria sher par apni raa'e
> dainay ka, aur usay behter taur par likhna ka bhi.
>
> Yeah, the message of the sher IS vital, do linoN main itni bari
haqiqat bayan
> ki hai Iqbal ne (though, hamen sumjhnay kay liay poora page parnah
para
> :-)).
>
> Naheed
-------
mujhe be-had afsos hai, Naaheed ji, ke aap ko is she'r ko samajhne ke
liye 'POORA' page paRhna paRaa hai. sirf afsos hi naheeN, balke aap se
be-panaah ham-dardi bhi hai ke aap ko is ghair-zaroori aziyyat ka
saamna karna paRaa! :-))
magar kya kiyaa jaaye; Iqbal jaise shaa'ir baateN hi kuchh aisi karte
haiN ke do-chaar jumloN meiN vaazeh naheeN hoteeN. aap ko to shukr
karna chaahiye ke maiN ne is she'r par tanqeed aap ke roo-ba-roo naheeN
ki --- varna aap ka to buraa haal ho jaata! :-))
dar-asl, chand roz qabl maiN aap hi ke 'gaaoN' meiN tha. agar aap ka
kuchh ataa-pataa hota to maiN aap se mulaaqaat ka sharf zaroor haasil
karta. aur us mulaaqaat meiN isi she'r par aap ke saath tafseeli baat-
cheet bhi karta. na jaane, tab aap kaise bardaasht karteeN is koft ko!
shukr keejiye ke aap faqat aek page paRhne se hi surkh-roo ho
gayeeN!!! :-))
vaise, aap ke naam ki riyaayat se Ustaad Momin ka voh she'r yaad aa
rahaa hai jahaaN unhoN ne farmaayaa hai ke
us ghairat-e-naaheed ki har taan hai deepak!
sho'laa sa lapak jaaye hai, aavaaz to dekho!!!
what a she'r! jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, ALUP par is she'r ka zikr ho
chukaa hai. maiN ne jab is she'r par ghaur-o-khauz kiya to jee chaaha
ke aek gahzal isi zameen meiN keh DaalooN, magar qudrat ko aisa manzoor
naheeN tha. atibba ne mujhe gher-ghaar kar haspataal meiN Daal diya.
peshtar is ke, sirf aek she'r ho paaya jo mujhe be-had pasand hai; ho
sakta hai deegar ALUPers ko bhi pasand aaye. arz hai ke
har dekhne vaale ko kiyaa sharm se paani!
us aaNkh ke sharmaane ka andaaz to dekho!!!
I hope that one day I'll get back to that mood and ----- write a full
ghazal in this zameen!
achhchha, to ab ijaazat deejiye.
Naheed Rana
<rajkp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:82sf40$tsh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>In article <XDY34.2126$uj2....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
>-------
>
>mujhe be-had afsos hai, Naaheed ji, ke aap ko is she'r ko samajhne ke
>liye 'POORA' page paRhna paRaa hai. sirf afsos hi naheeN, balke aap se
>be-panaah ham-dardi bhi hai ke aap ko is ghair-zaroori aziyyat ka
>saamna karna paRaa! :-))
No, no...I didn't mean that! All I wanted to say was that this sher might
be very simple for some people, but it took me a while to appreciate it :-)
Oh Well!!
>magar kya kiyaa jaaye; Iqbal jaise shaa'ir baateN hi kuchh aisi karte
>haiN ke do-chaar jumloN meiN vaazeh naheeN hoteeN. aap ko to shukr
>karna chaahiye ke maiN ne is she'r par tanqeed aap ke roo-ba-roo naheeN
>ki --- varna aap ka to buraa haal ho jaata! :-))
>
>dar-asl, chand roz qabl maiN aap hi ke 'gaaoN' meiN tha. agar aap ka
>kuchh ataa-pataa hota to maiN aap se mulaaqaat ka sharf zaroor haasil
>karta. aur us mulaaqaat meiN isi she'r par aap ke saath tafseeli baat-
>cheet bhi karta. na jaane, tab aap kaise bardaasht karteeN is koft ko!
khair!! ta'asraat tu aap ke bhi qabl-e-deed hotay jab aapko khabar hoti ke
kitnay pani main hain hum!! :-) Raj Kumar saheb ap bhi "achay khasay baray
shehar" ko gaaon kehtay hain, hamaray bhai ki tarah :-) jab ghar jati
hoon tu bhai se isi bat par behas hoti hai. Anyways, agar phir kabhi idhar
se guzar ho tu zaroor tashreef la'ain.
>shukr keejiye ke aap faqat aek page paRhne se hi surkh-roo ho
>gayeeN!!! :-))
>vaise, aap ke naam ki riyaayat se Ustaad Momin ka voh she'r yaad aa
>rahaa hai jahaaN unhoN ne farmaayaa hai ke
>
>us ghairat-e-naaheed ki har taan hai deepak!
>sho'laa sa lapak jaaye hai, aavaaz to dekho!!!
acha sher hai, especially I like that "jaaye hai" in the sher, usually you
don't see these two words together.
>what a she'r! jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, ALUP par is she'r ka zikr ho
>chukaa hai. maiN ne jab is she'r par ghaur-o-khauz kiya to jee chaaha
>ke aek gahzal isi zameen meiN keh DaalooN, magar qudrat ko aisa manzoor
>naheeN tha. atibba ne mujhe gher-ghaar kar haspataal meiN Daal diya.
>peshtar is ke, sirf aek she'r ho paaya jo mujhe be-had pasand hai; ho
>sakta hai deegar ALUPers ko bhi pasand aaye. arz hai ke
>
>har dekhne vaale ko kiyaa sharm se paani!
>us aaNkh ke sharmaane ka andaaz to dekho!!!
>
>I hope that one day I'll get back to that mood and ----- write a full
>ghazal in this zameen!
bohat khoobsorat sher hai, zaror proi karain ghazal aap .
Naheed
rajkp...@my-deja.com
In article <KlF44.4657$uj2.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
"Naheed Rana" <nahe...@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
> ----------------------- Raj Kumar saheb, ap bhi "achhay khasay baray
> shehar" ko gaaon kehtay hain, hamaray bhai ki tarah :-) jab ghar
jati
> hoon to bhai se isi bat par behas hoti hai. Anyways, agar phir kabhi
idhar
> se guzar ho tu zaroor tashreef la'ain.
is ka matlab to yeh hua ke aap ke bhai sahib meiN aur ham meiN kam-az-
kam aek baat to mushtarik hai, voh yeh ke "we both enjoy teasing you!".
Isn't that wonderful?
to, chaliye, ab aap se va'ada rahaa ke ham aa'inda kabhi bhi aap ke
gaaoN ko 'gaaoN' naheeN kaheN ge!!! :-))
aur jab bhi mauqa' milaa to aap ke 'shaihr' meiN aa kar aap se
mulaaqaat kareN ge. phir aap ko bhi pataa chal jaaye ga ke khud ham
kitne paani meiN haiN! :-))
> us ghairat-e-naaheed ki har taan hai deepak!
> sho'la sa lapak jaaye hai, aavaaz to dekho!!!
> achha sher hai, especially I like that "jaaye hai" in the sher,
usually you
> don't see these two words together.
Usually not, but occasionally you do! aap ne ghaaliban meri ghazal
ba-rang-e-Meer, jo pichhle saal ALUP par nashr hui thi, naheeN dekhi.
us ghazal ke to radeef aur qaafiye hi aise the. maslan, doosra she'r us
ghazal ka yooN tha:
jab bhi tiri talaash ko nikle, bhaTak gaye
hai koi raasta jo tire ghar ko jaaye hai?
ab aap andaaza lagaa sakti haiN ke 'zabaan ki yeh lataafat', jo aap ko
Ustaad Momin ke she'r meiN bhaaii hai, us ghazal ke har she'r meiN
maujood thi!
> >har dekhne vaale ko kiyaa sharm se paani!
> >us aaNkh ke sharmaane ka andaaz to dekho!!!
> >
> >I hope that one day I'll get back to that mood and ----- write a full
> >ghazal in this zameen!
>
> bohat khoobsorat sher hai, zaroor poori karain ghazal aap .
she'r pasand farmaane ka shukriya! vaise, yeh ghazal kab poori hoti
hai, kehna bahut mushkil hai --- kiyooNke raaste meiN kayee
aur 'dilchaspiyaaN' haa'il hoti rehti haiN! :-))
tunioath...@gmail.com
tunioath...@gmail.com
Raj Kumar
> NICE EXPLAINED DEAR
***shukriya, Athar sahib! aap ne to hameN "bhuule bisre" dinoN ki yaad dilaa di!
du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***
minhaj...@gmail.com
Naseer
> In article <4SB04.3011$t12.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
>
> > Could someone explain this sher...
> >
> > wa'ay nakami mata-e-karwan jata raha
> > karwan kay dil say ehsas-e-zian jata raha (Iqbal)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Naheed
>
> ------------
>
> hai, aage aate aur aap ke bheje huye she'r par kuchh raushni Daalte.
> magar lagta hai ke un ki masroofiyat ne unheN aisa karne naheeN diya.
> aur yeh bhi mumkin hai ke voh, guzashta tajrube ki binaa par, ab Iqbal
> ke ash'aar ko haath lagaane se Darte hoN! :-))
>
> to, chaliye, maiN hi apni samajh ke mutaabiq is she'r ke baare meiN aap
> ko apni raaye se muttelaa' karta hooN. First of all, let me re-write it
> my way:
>
> vaa'e naakaami! mataa'-e-kaarvaaN jaata rahaa
> kaarvaaN ke dil se ehsaas-e-ziyaaN jaata rahaa
>
> ehsaas-e-ziyaaN = realization of a loss
> mataa' = precious things, valuables, daulat, jaa'e-daad, sarmaayah, ----
>
> First of all, I am baffled to see Iqbal use mataa' as masculine. Yes,
> maal-o-mataa' IS a masculine phrase --- but mataa', standing alone, is a
> feminine noun. I have got it checked at four different places!
> Note that the subject in the first line is mataa', not kaarvaaN; so,
> regardless of the gender of kaarvaaN, the verb here must conform to the
> gender of mataa', which Iqbal has chosen to use as masculine. I wonder,
> why?
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/mataa3%7Csort:date/alt.language.urdu.poetry/hQKBFx3jL3w/LudSQ2XbAwAJ
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
I can hazard a guess (or two) as to why 'Allama Iqbal
used the masculine gender for the word "mataa'"......
First : 'Allama Iqbal wa a Punjabi (do excuse me for
this ethnic reference). And people from that region are
deemed to be quite "masculine" in their upbringing, thinking
and outlook etc.
Second : "Mataa'": The word's pronunciation itself lends it a
a masculine halo.
All this, of course, is "tongue-in-cheek".
************
You had set out to explain the meaning of this sher. But I did
not get to see it. Did I miss something ?
Afzal
Naseer
'Allamah Iqbal was a Punjabi speaking Kashmiri just as Yusuf Khan is a Hindko speaking Pathan and Josh MaleeHabadi an Urdu speaking Pathan.
I believe Raj Kumar SaaHib explained the meaning of this shi3r nearly 21 years ago (second post). The question about the shi3r's meaning was posed by Naheed Rana SaaHibah. My part in all this was merely to provide some information for the gender of the word متاع mataa3 in the thread entitled "In Defence of Iqbal".
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/In$20Defence$20of$20Iqbal%7Csort:date/alt.language.urdu.poetry/hQKBFx3jL3w/Z7pTF_NoCQAJ
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
> On Thursday, 23 July 2020 18:22:49 UTC+1, Afzal A. Khan wrote:
>> On 7/23/2020 6:22 AM, Naseer wrote:
>> Mukarramee,
>>
>> I can hazard a guess (or two) as to why 'Allama Iqbal
>> used the masculine gender for the word "mataa'"......
>>
>> First : 'Allama Iqbal wa a Punjabi (do excuse me for
>> this ethnic reference). And people from that region are
>> deemed to be quite "masculine" in their upbringing, thinking
>> and outlook etc.
>>
>> Second : "Mataa'": The word's pronunciation itself lends it a
>> a masculine halo.
>>
>> All this, of course, is "tongue-in-cheek".
>>
>> ************
>>
>> You had set out to explain the meaning of this sher. But I did
>> not get to see it. Did I miss something ?
>>
>>
>> Afzal
>
> Afzal SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> 'Allamah Iqbal was a Punjabi speaking Kashmiri just as Yusuf Khan is a Hindko speaking Pathan and Josh MaleeHabadi an Urdu speaking Pathan.
Mukarramee,
"Pathan" may be an ethnic specification, like "Slav" in
a European context.
But I think "Punjabi" is a "regional" specification, as
somebody belonging to or from the region known as the Punjab.
************
And, pray, why should a Kashmiri speak Punjabi in the first
place ?
************
For various reasons, an Indian film "New Delhi", released in
late 1956 is one of my favourite films. Its hero (Kishore Kumar)
is supposed to be from Jullunder or Jaalandhar. When he seeks
a temporary stay in a Delhi "saraaye" owned by a Bhojpuri -
speaking "Bhaiyya", the latter asks KK : "Babu, kahaaN se aat
ho ?". And when KK answers : "Ji, Jalandhar se", the saraaye
owner remarks : "O to Punjabi ho". KK answers : "HaaN, hooN to
Punjabi, magar maiN kiraawa de dooNga".
************
I just wanted to point out that "Punjabi" is a regional
specification.
************
Having said that, I have always maintained that these
"differences", on the basis of region, caste or creed etc.
do not matter one bit, as far as our love of Urdu and Urdu
Literature is concerned.
************
By "Yusuf Khan", do you mean the thespian Dilip Kumar ?
If so, I don't know if he speaks Hindko at home or whether
he has used that language (or perhaps dialect) while
speaking in public or in his films.
************
As somebody once said in ALUP : "Google is your friend".
A Google search reveals that "Hindko" is (and I quote) :
"....a cover term for a diverse group of Lahnda (Western
Punjabi) dialects spoken by people of various ethnic
backgrounds in several discontinuous areas in North -
Western Pakistan, primarily in the provinces of
Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Punjab".
************
From times immemorial, people have migrated from one geographical
area to another.
Emperor Babar came (or migrated) to India from
Farghana early in the sixteenth century. I think Farghana is
located in Eastern Uzbekistan. But, today, do people in India
remember him as an Uzbekistani ?
************
Mirza Ghalib was born in Agra. But his family descended from
Aibak Turks who moved to Samarqand (in modern-day Uzbekistan
(much like Babar), after the downfall of the Seljuk kings. His
grandfather was a Saljuq Turk.
But, for us, he is as much an Indian as, say, Pandit Daya Shankar
Naseem or Brij Narayan Chakbast.
************
Wali is commonly regarded as the doyen of Urdu poets. He
hailed from the Deccan (which explains his appellation as
Wali Dakkani). After he had left the Deccan, he lived in
the North. He passed away in Ahmedabad, Gujarat. His mausoleum
was razed by bigots in riots that took place in 2002.
************
In recent times, Urdu poet 'Andaleeb Shaadaani was from Bengal.
But does it make any difference, as far as his Urdu credentials
are concerned ?
************
Ahmed Siddiq Majnoon Gorakhpuri was a renowned Urdu writer
and University Professor, who hailed from Gorakhpur. He migrated
to Pakistan in 1967 and died there in 1988. But we still call him
Majnoon Gorakhpuri.
************
'Allama Iqbal's family was Kashmiri Pandit ( from the Sapru clan).
But do we consider him to be a (hindu) Pandit ? And do
people consider him to be a Kashmiri in the same sense as
the Dogra Maharajas of Kashmir, like Gulab Singh, Ranbir
Singh, Pratap Singh and Hari Singh ?
The fact remains that he was born in Sialkot and died in
Lahore. As far as I know, both cities were (and continue to
be) located in the Punjab.
************
As is generally known, Kashmiri is a separate and distinct
language (duly recognized in the Indian Constitution, as amongst
22 Indian languages).
Did the 'Allama write any poetry in the Kashmiri language > Are
any such poems extant and available ?
************
Opinions may vary, but I do believe that the 'Allama was as
much a Punjabi as, say, Pandit Mela Ram Wafa or Munshi Tilok
Chand Mehroom.
************
Iqbal's diction in his Urdu and Faarsi poetry is impeccable.
But can we say the same about his speech ? I don't think
so. I believe he was wont to say "Hak ki tableeg", rather
than "Haq ki tableeGH".
But that doesn't take away anything from his greatness as a
poet extraordinaire. Quite justifiably, he is known as the
"Shaa'ir-e-Mashriq", "Hakeem-ul-Ummat" and "Mufakkir-e-
Pakistan".
Afzal
Naseer
>
> ************
>
> Iqbal's diction in his Urdu and Faarsi poetry is impeccable.
> But can we say the same about his speech ? I don't think
> so. I believe he was wont to say "Hak ki tableeg", rather
> than "Haq ki tableeGH".
janaab-i-Afzal SaaHib, aadaab.
I won't address your other comments for my own reasons but he most certainly would not have said "tableeg" instead of "tabliiGh" and I am prepared to put my head on the block! Why? Because, even the 100% illiterate Muslim Punjabis in Pakistani Punjab pronounce the letter غ Ghain with utmost ease as this sound is part of everyday Punjabi. The name "Ghulaam" for example is a common name in the Punjab (as in Ghulam Fareed) and no one, I repeat no one pronounces it as "gulaam". "Ghair" in the sense of "parayaa" is another common word in Punjabi and you will not hear it pronounced as "gair".
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
So, maybe, I gave a wrong example......
It is possible that things may have improved since the
'Allama's time !!
Again, "tongue-in-cheek" !!
************
The story goes that 'Allama Iqbal visited Hyderabad Deccan
sometime in the twenties. Amongst others, he also had an
occasion to meet Maulvi Ali Haidar Nazm Tabatabaai. A few
other local bigwigs were also present. After Iqbal left, a
few of those present spoke to Janaab Nazm in critical terms
about Iqbal's "lab-o-lehja". Nazm Saheb smiled politely and
just remarked : "Yeh baateN jaane deejiye."
I recall having written about this particular incident in ALUP
in the past, or perhaps in a personal e-mail to some ALUPer
(most probably UVR Saheb).
************
But the 'Allama's "lab-o-lehja" need not concern us here.
The main point under discussion here was whether the 'Allama
could be deemed as a Punjabi (i.e. someone from the Punjab).
So, what is your take on this issue ?
************
As I said earlier, he is known as "Mufakkir-e-Pakistan" and
Pakistan's national poet.
But was he a Pakistani in the first place ? Since he passed
away about a decade earlier to the creation of Pakistani, he may
not be considered as a Pakistani.
He was an Indian or (at best) a British Indian !!
Afzal
shoaib...@gmail.com
> As I said earlier, he is known as "Mufakkir-e-Pakistan" and
> Pakistan's national poet.
>
> But was he a Pakistani in the first place ? Since he passed
> away about a decade earlier to the creation of Pakistani, he may
> not be considered as a Pakistani.
>
> He was an Indian or (at best) a British Indian !!
in taaza khudaaoN meiN BaRa sab se vatan hai
jo perahan hai iss ka voh millat ka kafan hai
ان تازہ خداوں میں بڑا سب سے وطن ہے
جو پیرہن ہے اس کا وہ ملت کا کفن ہے