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kyaa maujuudah Urdu meN lafz "sar" hai yaa "sir" bhii hai
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Naseer
Aug 10, 2021, 7:42:40 AM8/10/21
to
dostaan-i-giraamii,
In a recent post, muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib had this to say about the word سرھانے which I transcribed as "sa-rhaane". Please see below.
On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 9:24:10 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> In his compilation "baaGh-o-bahaar" ( by Mir Amman), the scholar Rasheed Hasan Khan quotes this shi'r with "ko'ii nah bolo" when he is commenting on the word "sarhaane". What I found interesting is, and no doubt you will already know this, that the word is سرھانے ......
>
> "Urdu shu3araa ne bi_l3umuum is lafz ko ma3 haa-i-maxluutu_ttalaffuz naz kiyaa hai..
>
> ek misaal
>
> aage kisii kisii ke kyaa kareN dast-i-tam3 daraaz
> vuh haath so gayaa hai sa-rhaane dhare dhare
***janaab Naseer sahib, aap jis lafz ki baat kar rahe haiN maiN us ke hijje aur talaffuz donoN se vaaqif huuN magar mujhe lagta hai k aap is lafz ke talaffuz ke saath insaaf nahiiN kar rahe. Huzuur, is lafz ka ta'alluq Hindi lafz "sir" se hai, na k Faarsi lafz "sar" se. nateejatan, ise "sirhaane" likhna chaahiye, na k "sarhaane"! The same holds for the word "sir-khapaa'ii", which shouldn't be spoken/written as "sar-khapaa'ii".
In the Punjabi that I speak, we pronounse this word as "sarhaaNRe" or more accurately "srhaaNRe" where there is an a but perhaps only half or a third as long as the normal a (zabar). When I was typing this word it did occur to me whether the word is "sa-rhaane" or "si-rhaane". I checked Urdu LuGhat and it gave both versions. I opted for "sa-rhaane".
In language forum, there have been discussions on this topic where a number of Urdu speakers' reactions are recorded (and this includes "sar-khapaanaa vs sir khapaanaa) . In addition to this, I too have carried out a little "(re)search" on this topic which I presented there. Not that a Punjabi speaker's views matter that much:-) I am saying this jokingly but my experience is based on personal interactions with mother-tongue Urdu speakers as well as discussions in online forums.
I would like to hear your views on this topic. When do we have "sir" and when is it "sar"? As usual, I shall come up with my views once we have had a few responses.
Naseer
In a recent post, muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib had this to say about the word سرھانے which I transcribed as "sa-rhaane". Please see below.
On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 9:24:10 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> In his compilation "baaGh-o-bahaar" ( by Mir Amman), the scholar Rasheed Hasan Khan quotes this shi'r with "ko'ii nah bolo" when he is commenting on the word "sarhaane". What I found interesting is, and no doubt you will already know this, that the word is سرھانے ......
>
> "Urdu shu3araa ne bi_l3umuum is lafz ko ma3 haa-i-maxluutu_ttalaffuz naz kiyaa hai..
>
> ek misaal
>
> aage kisii kisii ke kyaa kareN dast-i-tam3 daraaz
> vuh haath so gayaa hai sa-rhaane dhare dhare
***janaab Naseer sahib, aap jis lafz ki baat kar rahe haiN maiN us ke hijje aur talaffuz donoN se vaaqif huuN magar mujhe lagta hai k aap is lafz ke talaffuz ke saath insaaf nahiiN kar rahe. Huzuur, is lafz ka ta'alluq Hindi lafz "sir" se hai, na k Faarsi lafz "sar" se. nateejatan, ise "sirhaane" likhna chaahiye, na k "sarhaane"! The same holds for the word "sir-khapaa'ii", which shouldn't be spoken/written as "sar-khapaa'ii".
In the Punjabi that I speak, we pronounse this word as "sarhaaNRe" or more accurately "srhaaNRe" where there is an a but perhaps only half or a third as long as the normal a (zabar). When I was typing this word it did occur to me whether the word is "sa-rhaane" or "si-rhaane". I checked Urdu LuGhat and it gave both versions. I opted for "sa-rhaane".
In language forum, there have been discussions on this topic where a number of Urdu speakers' reactions are recorded (and this includes "sar-khapaanaa vs sir khapaanaa) . In addition to this, I too have carried out a little "(re)search" on this topic which I presented there. Not that a Punjabi speaker's views matter that much:-) I am saying this jokingly but my experience is based on personal interactions with mother-tongue Urdu speakers as well as discussions in online forums.
I would like to hear your views on this topic. When do we have "sir" and when is it "sar"? As usual, I shall come up with my views once we have had a few responses.
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Aug 10, 2021, 10:45:26 AM8/10/21
to
On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:42:40 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> dostaan-i-giraamii,
>
> In a recent post, muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib had this to say about the word سرھانے which I transcribed as "sa-rhaane". Please see below.
>
>
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 9:24:10 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
> >
> > In his compilation "baaGh-o-bahaar" ( by Mir Amman), the scholar Rasheed Hasan Khan quotes this shi'r with "ko'ii nah bolo" when he is commenting on the word "sarhaane". What I found interesting is, and no doubt you will already know this, that the word is سرھانے ......
> >
> > "Urdu shu3araa ne bi_l3umuum is lafz ko ma3 haa-i-maxluutu_ttalaffuz naz kiyaa hai..
> >
> > ek misaal
> >
> > aage kisii kisii ke kyaa kareN dast-i-tam3 daraaz
> > vuh haath so gayaa hai sa-rhaane dhare dhare
>
> ***janaab Naseer sahib, aap jis lafz ki baat kar rahe haiN maiN us ke hijje aur talaffuz donoN se vaaqif huuN magar mujhe lagta hai k aap is lafz ke talaffuz ke saath insaaf nahiiN kar rahe. Huzuur, is lafz ka ta'alluq Hindi lafz "sir" se hai, na k Faarsi lafz "sar" se. nateejatan, ise "sirhaane" likhna chaahiye, na k "sarhaane"! The same holds for the word "sir-khapaa'ii", which shouldn't be spoken/written as "sar-khapaa'ii".***
> dostaan-i-giraamii,
>
> In a recent post, muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib had this to say about the word سرھانے which I transcribed as "sa-rhaane". Please see below.
>
>
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 9:24:10 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
> >
> > In his compilation "baaGh-o-bahaar" ( by Mir Amman), the scholar Rasheed Hasan Khan quotes this shi'r with "ko'ii nah bolo" when he is commenting on the word "sarhaane". What I found interesting is, and no doubt you will already know this, that the word is سرھانے ......
> >
> > "Urdu shu3araa ne bi_l3umuum is lafz ko ma3 haa-i-maxluutu_ttalaffuz naz kiyaa hai..
> >
> > ek misaal
> >
> > aage kisii kisii ke kyaa kareN dast-i-tam3 daraaz
> > vuh haath so gayaa hai sa-rhaane dhare dhare
>
>
> In the Punjabi that I speak, we pronounce this word as "sarhaaNRe" or more accurately "srhaaNRe" where there is an a but perhaps only half or a third as long as the normal a (zabar). When I was typing this word it did occur to me whether the word is "sa-rhaane" or "si-rhaane". I checked Urdu LuGhat and it gave both versions. I opted for "sa-rhaane".
>
> In language forum, there have been discussions on this topic where a number of Urdu speakers' reactions are recorded (and this includes "sar-khapaanaa vs sir khapaanaa) . In addition to this, I too have carried out a little "(re)search" on this topic which I presented there. Not that a Punjabi speaker's views matter that much:-) I am saying this jokingly but my experience is based on personal interactions with mother-tongue Urdu speakers as well as discussions in online forums.
>
> I would like to hear your views on this topic. When do we have "sir" and when is it "sar"? As usual, I shall come up with my views once we have had a few responses.
>
> Naseer
***janaab Naseer sahib:
> In language forum, there have been discussions on this topic where a number of Urdu speakers' reactions are recorded (and this includes "sar-khapaanaa vs sir khapaanaa) . In addition to this, I too have carried out a little "(re)search" on this topic which I presented there. Not that a Punjabi speaker's views matter that much:-) I am saying this jokingly but my experience is based on personal interactions with mother-tongue Urdu speakers as well as discussions in online forums.
>
> I would like to hear your views on this topic. When do we have "sir" and when is it "sar"? As usual, I shall come up with my views once we have had a few responses.
>
> Naseer
sab se pahle aap yeh bataaiye k Urdu LuGhat meN in donoN suuratoN meN se kaun si pahle darj kii ga'ii hai aur kaun si ba'ad meN. baaqi baateN ba'ad meN hoN gi! :-)
Raj Kumar***
Naseer
Aug 10, 2021, 11:15:47 AM8/10/21
to
http://udb.gov.pk/result.php?pn=202&search=%D8%B3%D8%B1 (please scroll to the bottom)
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Aug 10, 2021, 11:49:58 AM8/10/21
to
>
> http://udb.gov.pk/result.php?pn=202&search=%D8%B3%D8%B1 (please scroll to the bottom)
>
> Naseer
***Thanks for the prompt reply, Naseer sahib.
> http://udb.gov.pk/result.php?pn=202&search=%D8%B3%D8%B1 (please scroll to the bottom)
>
> Naseer
Please note that while the written word shows both versions, you should listen to the pronunciation as well. You'll find that the learned lady pronounces this word as "sihaanaa" and only "sihaanaa". You may listen to her as many times as you wish, you'll never hear her say "sarhaanaa".
Case Closed! LOL
Raj Kumar***
Naseer
Aug 10, 2021, 12:28:07 PM8/10/21
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQGgtS1agYc&ab_channel=foorpsid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=173svqgspoU&ab_channel=LataMangeshkar-Topic
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Aug 10, 2021, 12:30:53 PM8/10/21
to
R.K.***
Raj Kumar
Aug 10, 2021, 3:16:28 PM8/10/21
to
R.K.***
Naseer
Aug 13, 2021, 10:04:25 AM8/13/21
to
I started this thread based on your comment below, in which you have "complained" that I have not done justice to the "talaffuz" of the word سرھانے.
"***janaab Naseer sahib, aap jis lafz ki baat kar rahe haiN maiN us ke hijje aur talaffuz donoN se vaaqif huuN magar mujhe lagta hai k aap is lafz ke talaffuz ke saath insaaf nahiiN kar rahe...."
Clearly you not accept the "sarhaane" pronunciation. I requested ALUP friends to provide their views on this word. Is it "sarhaane" or "sirhaane"? Apart from your responses there has not been any other response from any other friends. Well, there are not too many people participating at the moment (be they friends or foes:-)) and the lack of responses is not therefore surprising. What is surprising is the fact that you believe (at least this is my perception) that I am adament on the "sarhaane" pronunciation and this thread, sadly, has become a "contest" of a kind between the two of us, as is apparent from your latest post.
***Please present a witness more authoritative than "Urdu LuGhat".
At a very young age (12-13), I became the proud owner of a dictionary entitled, "Kitabistan's 20th Century Urdu-English Dictionary" compiled by a certain Bashir Ahmad Quraishi about whom I know next to nothing. However, I will tell you that this dictionary has been one of my favourite dictionaries even upto the age of maturity and beyond, that is senility!:-) I possessed this dictionary, which was in nasx format, up untill recently when I gifted it to a friend of mine. This dictionary had separate entries for "sar" and "sir" from which I became aware that with Persian constructions, one has "sar" and with KhaRi-Boli constructions, the word is "sir". The compiler of Nurul LuGhaat (1917 I believe) agrees with this division and considers the use of "sir" with Indic idioms to be "fasiiH".
Nearly a decade ago, in a language forum this topic came under discussion in which both Hindi and Urdu speakers (and a Punjabi, that is me) took part. I can exclude the Hindi speakers from this discussion because almost invariably, they were never able to quote anything from Hindi literature. At least this has been my experience of the participants in the said language forum. Amongst the Urdu speakers who then took part, one was from Lucknow, India; two from Karachi, Pakistan and another also from Pakistan but I do not know/remember his family's origins. If I remember correctly, these three mother-tongue Urdu speakers' families originated from areas in India. One of the Pakistanis quoted the following shi3r which as a matter of interest has "sar" in Professor Frances W Pritchett's Ghalib site, "A Desertful of Roses".
fikr-i-dunyaa meN sar khapaataa huuN
maiN kahaaN aur yeh vabaal kahaaN
As I was the instigator of the thread, I asked him if he had any problem with "sir" in this shi3r. He replied he did n't but had always heard "sar". One individual (who has not divulged his linguistic background) mentioned "siryoN kii yaxnii" and the quoter of the shi3r responded by mention "sirii-paa'e". As a response to this comment, another Urdu speaker from Pakistan mentioned that the only thing surviving of "sir" is "sirii paa'e" but you and I of course know that this is not true. At least one common word comes to mind is "siraa", "sire". He also mentioned "sar muNDvaate" which I thought was "sir muNDvaate". I then quoted the following shi3r by Mir Anees..
baalaa-i-zamiin teGh se kaT kaT ke gire sir
ik chashm-zadan meN saff-i-avval hu'ii aaxir
At least one thing is clear from this shi3r that even the Lakhnavii poets used "sir" and "sar" was not a universal choice in Urdu. To my utter surprise (and shock), the Lakhnavi gentleman was reading this shi3r as..
baalaa-i-zamiin teGh se kaT kaT ke gire sar
ik chashm-zadan meN saff-i-avval hu'ii aaxar
Well, "aaxar" means "another" and in the context of this shi3r, it is totally meaningless! But he would not budge whatever reasoning I offered. A bit like our friend who was participating in my "PunjabiyoN kaa Urdu" series! (:- His reasoning was that "aaxar" was a poetic licence for rhyming with "sar"! This gentleman is a highly educated man who is well versed in Urdu, Hindi, Persian, Arabic and one or two other languages too (Greek I believe but I might be wrong.) I then quoted the following shi3r and asked him if poetic license would allow "maahir" changing to "maahar".
dekhte hii shakl raaz-i-dil se maahir ho ga'e
phir vuh nah Taale Tale jis baat ke sir ho ga'e
DaaGh
He replied by saying that he could only repeat what he had said earlier. He suggested that Lakhnavii poets had use "sir" possibly because of Braj influence. If this is the case then DaaGh would have used "sir" because of Punjabi influence!:-)
najmu_lamsaal" compiled by Maulavii Muhammad Najamuddin SaaHib and published in 1882 has numerous examples of "sir". Likewise, in Maulavii Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii's luGhaatu_nnisaa' published in 1917 about which he says, "dehlii kii begamoN, qil3ah-i-mu3allah kii shahzaadiyoN, shariif musalmaan aur hinduu xaatuunoN, zanaanah darsii kitaaboN ?? 4071 luGhaat, muHaavaraat, istilaaHaat aur zarbu_lamsaal kaa be-naziir majmuu3ah".
Now coming to your request, "***Please present a witness more authoritative than "Urdu LuGhat". "
Languages change with the passage of time and dictionary compilers must take into account these changes, be they in meaning or pronunciation. Platts dictionary was compiled in 1884, a hundred and thirty seven years ago. Farhang-i-Asifiyyah came out in 1908 and Nurul Lughaat in 1917. Bashir Ahmed Qureshi's dictionary came out in the 1960s.
Work on Urdu LuGhat began in 1958 and its 22nd volume was completed in 2010. I quote the below from the following link.
https://www.interface.edu.pk/students/May/Urdu-Lughat
"At least seven scholars of the Urdu language worked at the Urdu Lughat Board as chief editor(s). They were the late Dr. Maulavi Abdul Haq (from 1957 to 1961), the late Dr. Abul Lais Siddiqui (from 1962-1984), Dr. Farman Fatehpuri (from 1985-1995), Dr. Hanif Qureishi Fauq (from 1995 to 1997), Professor Sahar Ansari (from 1998-2000), Mirza Nasim beg (from 2000-2001) and Dr. Younis Hasni (from 2001-2003). Currently Dr. Rauf Parekh is working as chief editor of the Urdu Lughat Board."
So, there is no better witness than the Urdu Lughat!!! What I produced was a link to the online Urdu Lughat. Here is a link to the hard copy.
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/urdu-lughat-tareekhi-usool-par-volume-011-ebooks (p793-794)
As a matter of interest, please take a look at the following dictionary (Farhang-i-Lalita Prashad Shafaq). On page 397 we have the word " سرھانا - bi_lkasr va fatH......". This was originally published in 1919.
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/farhang-e-shafaq-munshi-lalta-prashad-ebooks
So, at least as early as 1919, this word was pronounced with both a zer and a zabar. The Youtube link I posted earlier of a 1936 Indian film has the word "sarhaane". It is difficult to find voice recordings of a word by persons whose Urdu would be considered acceptable by most. Well, for you, I've taken the extra trouble and found an Urdu poet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPQp6iNe3XQ&ab_channel=Jashn-e-Adab (9:48)
sarhaane Mir ke aahistah bolo (Farhat Ehsas- born Bahraich- UP)
Going by what Urdu speakers have said in ther language forum "sir" is practically dead in Urdu if not definitely dead. If you and I want to stick with "sir", that is fair enough but our word will not make any differernce!
Over to you, Raj Kumar SaaHib.
Naseer
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