Original poet? (aa ke sajjada.nisheeN Qais huaa mere ba'ad)

[Rajiv Chakravarti]

Hello all -

I wonder if anyone here can shed light on the author of the Ghazal:

"aa ke sajjada.nisheeN Qais huaa mere ba'ad"

This has been popularized by the late Mehdi Hassan sahab (and attributed to Meer) -- but the Ghazal is not found in Meer's kulliyaat.

Thanks,
RC

[vij...@gmail.com]

aadaab Rajiv sahib. I post a cut and paste from part of an earlier post of mine. This is by no means exhaustive, but one point of view, that of Ali Sardar Jaafrii:

"Nagesh Sahib, aadaab.

This turned out to be a very interesting can of worms. I did find the
ghazal but in the foreword to 'Diiwaan-e-Mir' by Sardar Jaafrii.
Apparently the ghazal is not by Mir. I post below the ghazal and
commentary by Ali Sardar Jaafrii.

aa kE sajjadah nashiiN Qais hUaa mErE baad
na rahii dashat meN Khaalii koii jaa mErE baad

tEz rakhyiO sar-e-har Khaar ko ai dasht-e-junUN
shayad aa jaaE koii aablaa paa mErE baad

mUnh pE rakh daaman-e-gul roENgE murghaan-e-chaman
har ravish Khak uRaaEgii sabaa mErE baad

veh havaa Khvaah-e-chaman hUN ki chaman meN har sub'h
pEhle mEn jaataa thaa aur baad-e-sabaa mere baad

"pehlaa she'r Dr. Yusuf Hussain KhaaN neN apnii kitaab 'Urdu Ghazal'
meN aik jagah Mir aur doosrii jagah Ghafil Lakhnavi ke naam se naqal
kiiya hai. Naasir Kaazimii neN pehle do she'r apne aik mazmoon matbooaa
Savera (Lahore), no. 19-20-21 meN Mir ke naam se naqal kiye hEN.
AaKhirii do she'r Haidrabad ke mash'hoor adeeb Fazal-Ul-Hussain (?Fazal-
Ul-Rehmaan)nen sunaae the. Haniif Naqvii neN 'Naya Daur' (LuKhnaoo)kii
ishaa'at AktUbar 1959 meN likhaa hai ki pehla she'r Ghafil LaKhnavii ka
hia aur doosra Muhammad Taqii Havas ka. Haniif Naqvii ke Khayaal meN
Mir se intisaab kii bunyaad mundarzaa-e-zail she'r hai jo Maulaanaa
Shiblii neN 'She'r-Ul-ajam' meN naqal kiia hai:

baad marne ke mirii qabar p' aaya voh Mir
yaad aaii mire iissa ko davaa mere baad.

Lekin yeh she'r bhi Mir ka nahiiN hai. Is zamiin meN Mir ki koii ghazal
nahiiN hai."



Respectfully

Vijay Kumar"

[Naseer]

On Mar 5, 2:59 pm, Rajiv Chakravarti <rajiv.chakrava...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Rajiv SaaHib, not forgetting "alqaab-o-aadaab", aadaab 3arz hai!

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.urdu.poetry/browse_thread/thread/52e2ae19b320af9d/16c72fd1f52ca971?lnk=gst&q=alqaab#16c72fd1f52ca971
(alqaab-o-aadaab)

I've been making concerted efforts during the last couple of days to
find the real poet for this Ghazal. Within this Newsgroup, there was
one thread for which I intended to provide the URL but Vijay SaaHib
has beaten me to it. Needless to say, everywhere one finds Miir being
assigned to this Ghazal. I have looked through the "Kulliyaat-i-Miir"
that I have access to and like you, I have not found the Ghazal there.
If I am successful in finding its poet, I shall most certainly post it
here.

Couple of more shi3rs..

ab to haNs haNs ke lagaataa hai vuh miNhdii lekin
xuuN rulaa’e gaa use rang-i-Hinaa mere ba3d

chaak kartaa huuN isii Gham se girebaan-i-kafan
kaun khole gaa tire band-i-qabaa mere ba3d

iraadat-mand,

Naseer

[vij...@gmail.com]

aadaab Naseer sahib:


As Ali Sardar Jaafri avers, this Gazal seems to be an amalgamation of asha'ar by different poets. One can say with considerable certainty, that the first one of the two you posted, is NOT by miir taqii miir! It seems this zamiin is fair game for all and sundry, but not miir himself!

Regards,

Vijay

[Rajiv Chakravarti]

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 2:38:43 PM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:

> I've been making concerted efforts during the last couple of days to
>
> find the real poet for this Ghazal. Within this Newsgroup, there was
>
> one thread for which I intended to provide the URL but Vijay SaaHib
>
> has beaten me to it. Needless to say, everywhere one finds Miir being
>
> assigned to this Ghazal. I have looked through the "Kulliyaat-i-Miir"
>
> that I have access to and like you, I have not found the Ghazal there.
>
> If I am successful in finding its poet, I shall most certainly post it
>
> here.
>
>
>
> Couple of more shi3rs..
>
>
>
> ab to haNs haNs ke lagaataa hai vuh miNhdii lekin
>
> xuuN rulaa’e gaa use rang-i-Hinaa mere ba3d
>
>
>
> chaak kartaa huuN isii Gham se girebaan-i-kafan
>
> kaun khole gaa tire band-i-qabaa mere ba3d
>
>
>
> iraadat-mand,
>
>
>
> Naseer

aadaab Naseer saahab aur Vijay saaheb:

Thank you so much for your kind responses and effort. One person who wrote back to me in a different forum said that he had copied this Ghazal in his notebook as a child, with the attribution to a "Munawwar Khan 'Ghafil'" -- the same name that Vijay sahab also mentions in his reply.

It is interesting to note that there is a possibility that the verses of this Ghazal are from more than one poet -- or perhaps two Ghazals mixed in (as sometimes happens when singers select verses, consciously or subconsciously).

If any more information is found in the future, please do pen in a line here.

Once again, many thanks to QP saahib and Vijay sahab.

RC

[Afzal A. Khan]

This composition cannot be attributed to Meer. The language and
diction are so different. I do not know the exact life-span of
GHaafil Lucknawi. But the diction employed in the ghazal seems
to suggest that it might have been written in comparatively
recent times.

Also, a few amendments. The amended ghazal, including a couple
of additional verses posted by Naseer Saheb, is reproduced here.



Aa ke sajjaada(h)~nasheeN Qais huwa mere b'ad
Na rahi dasht men KHaali koi ja, mere b'ad

Tez rakhiyo sar-e-har-KHaar ko ai dasht-e-junooN
Shaayad aa jaaye koi aabla~pa mere b'ad

MooNh pe rakh daaman-e-gul royeNge murGHaan-e-chaman
Har ravish KHaak uRaayegi saba mere b'ad

Woh hawa~KH(w)aah-e-chaman hooN k(e)chaman men har subh'
Pehle maiN jaata tha aur baad-e-saba mere b'ad

Ab to haNs haNs ke lagaata hai woh mehndi lekin
KHooN rulaayega use raNg-e-hina mere b'ad

Chaak karta hooN isi GHam se girebaan-e-kafan
Kaun khole ga tire baNd-e-qaba mere b'ad


It is really surprising that a very decent ghazal like this has no
known author. I particularly like the second sher. Reminds me of
a wonderful verse by the late Ahmed Faraaz :

Tu ne dekhi hi naheeN dasht-e-wafa ki tasweer
Nok-e-har'KHaar pe ik qatra-e-KHooN hai, yooN hai




Afzal

[vij...@gmail.com]

Not more information about the author, Rajiv sahib, but yet one more ?'influential' voice calling it a creation of miir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUCZ1g5TEwg

It is in the first minute of the video.

Regards,

Vijay

[Rajiv Chakravarti]

aadaab Afzal sahab :

Thank you for the response. I agree with you whole-heartedly. The style is definitely contemporary -- and not one I (with my admittedly limited reading of Meer) would associate with the Khudaa-e suKhan

As I mentioned before, another gentleman (in a different forum) had a few verses copied in his notebook with the attribution of "Munawar Khan Ghafil" to them.

I wonder whether that "maqt'a" :

ba'ad marne ke miri qabr pah aayaa voh ‘Meer’
yaad aayee mire Eesaa ko davaa mere ba'ad

is by Meer then? Again, here the style is not readily indicative of that.

Thanks for your participation in this thread.
Regards,
RC

[Naseer]

On Mar 9, 12:16 am, Rajiv Chakravarti <rajiv.chakrava...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Could "miir" mean here "prince"?

Naseer

[vij...@gmail.com]

Nasser sahib,

The Gazal starts off from the point of view of a male protagonist, (comparing himself with Qais) and continues in that vein. Your interpretation of the last she'r would require the protagonist to be a woman, don't you think? I therefore feel that the word 'Meer' here is used as a taKhallus rather than in the meaning you mention.

It will be interesting to hear others' opinion on this.



Regards,

Vijay

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 3/10/2013 3:21 PM, Naseer wrote:


> On Mar 9, 12:16 am, Rajiv Chakravarti <rajiv.chakrava...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> aadaab Afzal sahab :
>>
>> Thank you for the response. I agree with you whole-heartedly. The style is definitely contemporary -- and not one I (with my admittedly limited reading of Meer) would associate with the Khudaa-e suKhan
>>
>> As I mentioned before, another gentleman (in a different forum) had a few verses copied in his notebook with the attribution of "Munawar Khan Ghafil" to them.
>>
>> I wonder whether that "maqt'a" :
>>
>> ba'ad marne ke miri qabr pah aayaa voh ‘Meer’
>> yaad aayee mire Eesaa ko davaa mere ba'ad
>>
>> is by Meer then? Again, here the style is not readily indicative of that.

>> RC

>
> Could "miir" mean here "prince"?
>
> Naseer

Naseer Saheb,


I don't think so. Vijay Saheb has already pointed out that the
ghazal has been composed from a 'male' point of view. With very
very few exceptions, most ghazals (i.e. Urdu love poetry) are
composed from this perspective only. {A few years back, I had
posted a composition by a lady poet, who was the daughter of a
certain Mr. Khan who was the Vice-Chancellor of Bombay University,
and its time-frame was the 1930's. That would be one such excep-
tion. And in such exceptional cases, the (lady) poets did (and
still do) observe due decorum.}

Also, we do come across expressions like "Meer-e-KaarvaN" etc.
But 'Meer' (in the sense of a Leader or Prince) occurring in Urdu
love poetry is rather uncommon. Possibly, Faarsi poetry may
throw up examples of such usage.


Afzal

[Balvinder]

aa ke sajjadah nashiiN qais huaa mere baad
na rahii dasht meN khaalii merii jaa mere baad

dostii ka bhii tujhe paas na aaya haay haay
tuu ne dushman se kiyaa meraa gilah mere baad

garm_baazaarii-e-ulfat hai mujh hii se varnaa
koii lene kaa nahiiN naam-e-vafaa mere baad

muNh pe le daaman-e-gul roaeNge murGhaan-e-chaman
baaGh meN khaak uRaayegii sabaa mere baad

tez rakhna sar-e-har_Khaar ko ai dasht-e-junuuN
shaayad aa jaaye koii aablaa-paa mere baad

Munawar Khan "Ghafil"

[B.G. M.]

dostii ka bhii tujhe paas na aaya haay haay
tuu ne dushman se kiyaa meraa gilah mere baad

------------------------------
YahaaN pehla misra' Shaayad Khaarij-e-behr hai

YuuN bhi ho sakta hai,
"dosti kaa bhi tujhe pass nah thaa, Hairat hai!
tutu ne dushman se kiyaa mera gilah mere b'aad.

=====================================

[vij...@gmail.com]

Balwinder sahib, bohat shukriia is Ghazal ko yahaaN pesh karne ka. is laRii ke shuruu meN maiN ne Ali Sardar Jaafri ke ta'assuraat ke saath is Ghazal ke chaNd asha'ar chaspaaN kiie the. un ke Khyaal meN is Ghazal ke asha'ar muKhtalif sho'ra ke haiN. un meN se Munawar Khan Ghafil ka naam bhii hai. aap ne, Ghaliban, jo asha'ar Ghafil ke haiN unheN darj kii hai. kehne ka matlab ki is muqammal Ghazal meN aur asha'ar bhii haiN jo aur sho'ra ke haiN.

doosri baat yih ko kucch jagah pe aap ne kucch muKhtalif alfaaz istemaal kiie haiN, jin kii nishaan-dihii maiN zail meN kar raha huuN. agar ho sake to tasdiiq kar deN ki yih GhaltiiaN aap se sarjad nahiiN huuiN. ya'ani ki she'r vaise hii haiN jiase aap ne unheN likha hai.

1. pehel she'r ke doosre misre meN, 'merii jaa' ki jagah 'koii jaa' ziaadah maqbuul hai. Jaafri ne bhii 'koii jaa' hii llikha hai, aur Mehdi Hasan ne ise gaaya bhii vaise hi hai.

2. aik she'r meN kucch ma'muuli sa iKhtelaaf hai. masla'n:

muNh pe le daaman-e-gul---->muNh pe *rakh* daaman-e-gul
baaGh meN--->har ravish.

jis misre pe waz'n ka sawaal BGM saahib ne uThaaya hai, us meN bhii kucch gaRbaR lagtii hai. Raj sahib ise zaruur suljhaa deN ge. agar 'aayaa' aur 'haaye' ko zara khaiNch ke paRha jaae, to mujhe lagta hai aik hii 'haaye' se baat ban jaati hai. nahiiN to 'hai hai' ko bohat siNkoR kar paRhna paR raha hai jis se woh baat nahiiN banatii.

peshagii ma'azrat BGM sahib, lekin aap ke pesh-kardah sujhaao se waz'n to Thiik ho jaata hai, lekin misra utna pur-asar nahiiN rehtaa jitna 'haaye' se.

Regards,

Vijay

[Raj Kumar]

Balvinder saaHib wrote:

aa ke sajjadah nashiiN qais huaa mere baad
na rahii dasht meN khaalii merii jaa mere baad

dostii ka bhii tujhe paas na aaya haay haay
tuu ne dushman se kiyaa meraa gilah mere baad

garm_baazaarii-e-ulfat hai mujh hii se varnaa
koii lene kaa nahiiN naam-e-vafaa mere baad

muNh pe le daaman-e-gul roaeNge murGhaan-e-chaman
baaGh meN khaak uRaayegii sabaa mere baad

tez rakhna sar-e-har_Khaar ko ai dasht-e-junuuN
shaayad aa jaaye koii aablaa-paa mere baad

Munawar Khan "Ghafil"

----------

BG saaHib wrote:

“dostii ka bhii tujhe paas na aaya haay haay
tuu ne dushman se kiyaa meraa gilah mere baad”

YahaaN pehla misra' Shaayad Khaarij-e-behr hai

YuuN bhi ho sakta hai,

"dosti kaa bhi tujhe pass nah thaa, Hairat hai!
tutu ne dushman se kiyaa mera gilah mere b'aad.

----------

Vijay saaHib wrote:

Balwinder sahib, bohat shukriia is Ghazal ko yahaaN pesh karne ka. is laRii ke shuruu meN maiN ne Ali Sardar Jaafri ke ta'assuraat ke saath is Ghazal ke chaNd asha'ar chaspaaN kiie the. un ke Khayaal meN is Ghazal ke asha'ar muKhtalif sho'ra ke haiN. un meN se Munawar Khan Ghafil ka naam bhii hai. aap ne, Ghaliban, jo asha'ar Ghafil ke haiN unheN darj kiye haiN. kehne ka matlab ki is muqammal Ghazal meN aur asha'ar bhii haiN jo aur sho'ra ke haiN.

doosri baat yih ko kucch jagah pe aap ne kucch muKhtalif alfaaz istemaal kiie haiN, jin kii nishaan-dihii maiN zail meN kar raha huuN. agar ho sake to tasdiiq kar deN ki yih GhaltiiaN aap se sarjad nahiiN huuiN. ya'ani ki she'r vaise hii haiN jiase aap ne unheN likha hai.

1. pehle she'r ke doosre misre meN, 'merii jaa' ki jagah 'koii jaa' ziaadah maqbuul hai. Jaafri ne bhii 'koii jaa' hii llikha hai, aur Mehdi Hasan ne ise gaaya bhii vaise hi hai.

***Sorry, Vijay saaHib, kisii tarkeeb ka ziyaada maqbuul honaa us tarkeeb ke saHeeH hone ki daleel naheeN hotaa. aap agar is she’r ko ‘paraphrase’ kareN to aap par vaazeH ho jaaye gaa k yahaan saHeeH tarkeeb “miri jaa” hai, na k “ko’i jaa”!

goyaa, dasht meN jo jagah maiN ne apne liye banaa'ii thi, ab vuhi jagah Qais ne apnaa li hai --- in other words, mere marne ke ba’ad voh jagah Khaali naheeN rahii, Qais ki ba-daulat pur ho gayee hai!

So, in my view, the version of this she’r (as quoted by Balvinder saaHib) seems to be the correct one!***

jis misre pe waz'n ka sawaal BGM saahib ne uThaaya hai, us meN bhii kucch gaRbaR lagtii hai. Raj sahib ise zaruur suljhaa deN ge. agar 'aayaa' aur 'haaye' ko zara khaiNch ke paRha jaae, to mujhe lagta hai aik hii 'haaye' se baat ban jaati hai. nahiiN to 'hai hai' ko bohat siNkoR kar paRhna paR raha hai jis se woh baat nahiiN banatii.

***leejiye, saaHib, agar aap ki yihii aarzuu hai to maiN is gutthii ko abhi suljhaaye deta huuN! ☺

Huzoor, yahaaN kisii bhi lafz yaa alfaaz ko sukeRne ki zaruurat nahiiN hai, zaruurat hai to un ki tasHeeH karne ki!

meri raaye meN, yahaaN saHeeH misr’a Ghaaliban yuuN hai:

dostii kaa bhi tujhe paas na aayaa --- hey hey (NOT haaye haaye).

“hey hey” is a Hindi phrase, meaning “look hither, watch this, take a note, etc.” aap dekheN ge k ab is misr’e ka vazn bhi durust ho gayaa hai aur kuchh dostoN ne aek nayee phrase bhi seekh li hai! ☺

albatta, agar kisi dost ko is phrase ke javaaz par Hairat ho rahi ho to voh janaab-e-Firaaq Gorakhpuri ki yeh rubaa’iyaaN dekh leN; farmaate haiN k

1. voh nikhre badan ka muskuraanaa, hey hey
ras ke joban ka gungunaanaa, hey hey
kaanoN ki lau’oN ka thartharaanaa kam kam
voh chehre ke til ka jagmagaanaa, hey hey

2. zulfoN se fazaaoN ki udaahaT, hey hey
jism-e-raNgeeN ki achpalaahaT, hey hey
shokhii hai k gudgudaaye jaatii hai tujhe
har uzv-e-badan ki muskuraahaT, hey hey!

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar

In passing, a few friendly corrections ---

sajjaadah-nasheeN → sajjaadah-nisheeN, mere baad → mere ba’ad, mujh hii → mujhii, Munawar → Munawwar, Khaarij-e-behr → Khaarij-az-baHr, Jaafri → Ja’afarii, sarjad → sarzad, muqammal → mukammal.***

[vij...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44:48 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
Many thanks Raj sahib for your detailed response.

>
> ***Sorry, Vijay saaHib, kisii tarkeeb ka ziyaada maqbuul honaa us tarkeeb ke saHeeH hone ki daleel naheeN hotaa. aap agar is she’r ko ‘paraphrase’ kareN to aap par vaazeH ho jaaye gaa k yahaan saHeeH tarkeeb “miri jaa” hai, na k “ko’i jaa”!

This makes perfect sense Raj sahib. You will remember that about 15 years ago, you had once before commented on this she'r (at my request). At that time the she'r was quoted as '....koii jaa mere ba'ad'. You had done a great job then of explaining it and I had ever since, thought of that as the definitive version. But now, with the new (and likely the more authentic) version, the meaning is instantly clear and I dare say, more impressive. This was your response back in 1999:

"sab se pehle to yaad-aavari ka shukriya! aur jahaaN tak is she'r ke
matlab ka ta'alluq hai, baat kuchh TeRhi si hai. meri raaye meiN to is
she'r ko samajhne ke liye, is ke doosre misre' ko pehle paRhna chaahiye
aur pehle misre' ko ba'ad meiN.

goya, Meer keh rahe haiN ke meri saihraa-navardi aur aavaargi ke ba'ad
dasht ka voh haal hua ke vahaaN kisi aur deevaane ke liye koi jagah na
reh paayee......ya'ani ke, maiN ne jis dhang se aur jis josh-e-vaishat
se khaak uRaai, us ki badaulat dasht ka chappa-chappa uR gaya. us ke
ba'ad, kisi aur deevaane ke liye is dasht ko basaana koi aasaan kaam
naheeN tha......
albatta aek deevaana, jis ka naam Qais tha, aaya aur is qaabil nikla ke
is dasht meiN sajjaada-nisheeN ho sakaa; goya, mere ba'ad vuhi aek
shakhs aisa nikla jo ke "deevaanoN ka imaam" ban sakaa.

I hope this makes sense."

>
>
> ***leejiye, saaHib, agar aap ki yihii aarzuu hai to maiN is gutthii ko abhi suljhaaye deta huuN! ☺
>
>
>
> Huzoor, yahaaN kisii bhi lafz yaa alfaaz ko sukeRne ki zaruurat nahiiN hai, zaruurat hai to un ki tasHeeH karne ki!
>
>
>
> meri raaye meN, yahaaN saHeeH misr’a Ghaaliban yuuN hai:
>
>
>
> dostii kaa bhi tujhe paas na aayaa --- hey hey (NOT haaye haaye).
>
>
>
> “hey hey” is a Hindi phrase, meaning “look hither, watch this, take a note, etc.” aap dekheN ge k ab is misr’e ka vazn bhi durust ho gayaa hai aur kuchh dostoN ne aek nayee phrase bhi seekh li hai! ☺
>
>
>
> albatta, agar kisi dost ko is phrase ke javaaz par Hairat ho rahi ho to voh janaab-e-Firaaq Gorakhpuri ki yeh rubaa’iyaaN dekh leN; farmaate haiN k
>
>
>
> 1. voh nikhre badan ka muskuraanaa, hey hey
>
> ras ke joban ka gungunaanaa, hey hey
>
> kaanoN ki lau’oN ka thartharaanaa kam kam
>
> voh chehre ke til ka jagmagaanaa, hey hey
>
>
>
> 2. zulfoN se fazaaoN ki udaahaT, hey hey
>
> jism-e-raNgeeN ki achpalaahaT, hey hey
>
> shokhii hai k gudgudaaye jaatii hai tujhe
>
> har uzv-e-badan ki muskuraahaT, hey hey!

bohat Khuub Raj shaib. Thanks for the explanation and the examples of Firaaq. I have a couple of questions if you would kindly find time to respond:

1. 'dostii kaa bhii tujhe paas na aaya haaye'

kya yih misra is suurat meN waz'n meN hai?

2. Elsewhere, you have used the word 'phrase' in the feminine gender. Now, this being an English/French word, I always imagine it as a masculine word. Any particular reason why you have used it as feminine?

3. Yet elsewhere, you have spelt 'janam' as 'janm'. First I thought it was an error, but you have written it like that twice. I know I am the one likely to be wrong here, but would appreciate an explanation.

> In passing, a few friendly corrections ---
>
> sajjaadah-nasheeN → sajjaadah-nisheeN, mere baad → mere ba’ad, mujh hii → mujhii, Munawar → Munawwar, Khaarij-e-behr → Khaarij-az-baHr, Jaafri → Ja’afarii, sarjad → sarzad, muqammal → mukammal.***

Many thanks Raj sahib for the corrections. I keep slipping. Miir said for the likes of me:

yihii jaana ki kucch na jaana hai
so bhii ik um'r meN huua ma'aluum:-)

Best regards,

Vijay

[Raj Kumar]

On Friday, May 30, 2014 3:26:17 AM UTC-7, vij...@gmail.com wrote:

Many thanks, Raj sahib, for your detailed response.

> ***Sorry, Vijay saaHib, kisii tarkeeb ka ziyaada maqbuul honaa us tarkeeb ke saHeeH hone ki daleel naheeN hotaa. aap agar is she’r ko ‘paraphrase’ kareN to aap par vaazeH ho jaaye gaa k yahaan saHeeH tarkeeb “miri jaa” hai, na k “ko’i jaa”***!

This makes perfect sense, Raj sahib.

***Thanks, Sir!***

You will remember that, about 15 years ago, you had once before commented on this she'r (at my request). At that time the she'r was quoted as '....koii jaa mere ba'ad'. You had done a great job then of explaining it and I had ever since, thought of that as the definitive version. But now, with the new (and likely the more authentic) version, the meaning is instantly clear and I dare say, more impressive. This was your response back in 1999:

"sab se pehle to yaad-aavari ka shukriya! aur jahaaN tak is she'r ke
matlab ka ta'alluq hai, baat kuchh TeRhi si hai. meri raaye meiN to is
she'r ko samajhne ke liye, is ke doosre misre' ko pehle paRhna chaahiye
aur pehle misre' ko ba'ad meiN.

goya, Meer keh rahe haiN ke meri saihraa-navardi aur aavaargi ke ba'ad
dasht ka voh haal hua ke vahaaN kisi aur deevaane ke liye koi jagah na
reh paayee......ya'ani ke, maiN ne jis dhang se aur jis josh-e-vaishat
se khaak uRaai, us ki badaulat dasht ka chappa-chappa uR gaya. us ke
ba'ad, kisi aur deevaane ke liye is dasht ko basaana koi aasaan kaam
naheeN tha......
albatta aek deevaana, jis ka naam Qais tha, aaya aur is qaabil nikla ke
is dasht meiN sajjaada-nisheeN ho sakaa; goya, mere ba'ad vuhi aek
shakhs aisa nikla jo ke "deevaanoN ka imaam" ban sakaa.

I hope this makes sense."

***Fifteen years ago, I tried to make “the best of a bad business”, which you had clearly appreciated ---- albatta, ab jab-k is she’r ka saHeeH misr’a sar-e-baam aayaa hai to maiN ne jo baat Hasb-e-Haal munaasib samjhii, voh kah dii hai!

ab yeh to aap par nirbhar hai k, is an-honii Khataa par, mujh Ghareeb ko --- “chhoR diyaa jaaye k maar diyaa jaaye”!*** ☺

. I have a couple of questions if you would kindly find time to respond:

1. 'dostii kaa bhii tujhe paas na aaya haaye'

kya yih misra is suurat meN waz'n meN hai?

***Frankly, No!

is liye k lafz “haaye” ka saHeeH vazn 21 hai, as in
“haaye, us zuud-pashemaaN ka pashemaaN honaa” or in
“seene pe tuu ne teer voh maaraa k haaye haaye”!

albatta, aap is lafz ko yahaaN bar-vazn 22 baaNdh rahe haiN --- which isn’t right!

zer-e-baHs misr’e meN, jahaaN maqaam faqat 22 ka thaa, vahaaN diye gaye misr’e meN 21 21 ka vazn bharaa paRaa thaa --- jise BG saaHib ne fauran taaR liyaa! Khaaksaar ki tajveez (hey hey) ne us maqaam par vazn 22 ka, puuran ruup se, paalan kiyaa. vaise, koshish to aap ne bhi saHeeH vazn 22 ki kii hai, magar yeh koshish lafz “haaye” ke zarii’ye puurii naheeN hotii!*** ☹

2. Elsewhere, you have used the word 'phrase' in the feminine gender. Now, this being an English/French word, I always imagine it as a masculine word. Any particular reason why you have used it as feminine?

***As you know very well, Vijay saaHib, we have no clear-cut gender assignment for English/French words --- while “school” is masculine, “university” is feminine – while “department” is masculine, “ministry” is feminine, while “church” is masculine, “mosque” is feminine ------ ad infinitum!

rahii baat lafz ‘phrase’ ki to kyaa kahuuN? maiN is lafz ko ‘feminine’ ke ruup meN barat_ta huuN, is liye k hamaare school teachers is lafz ko isii ruup meN barat_te the!

vajah is ki Ghaaliban yeh thi k voh saaHibaan lafz ‘phrase’ ko alfaaz ki aek ‘baNdish’ maante the aur, nateejatan, ise ‘feminine’ gardaante the***!

3. Yet elsewhere, you have spelt 'janam' as 'janm'. First I thought it was an error, but you have written it like that twice. I know I am the one likely to be wrong here, but would appreciate an explanation.

***zamaana hu’aa k maiN ne aek maqt’a kahaa thaa:

“fazaa-e-bayaabaaN ne dii hai Khabar liyaa Qais ne phir ‘janam’, dosto!”

apni is baNdish ke javaaz meN, maiN ne kayee luGhaat ko khaNgaalaa to vaazeH hu’aa k saHeeH lafz ‘janm’ hai (jo k Sanskrit ka hai), albatta Hindi meN ise ‘janam’ kehnaa bhi ravaa hai ----

During that exercise I also learnt that, to be on the safe side, one should say --- janm-asthaaan, janm-ashTamii, janm-divas, janm-maran, etc., but may as well say --- janam-bhuumii, janam-daataa, janam-din, janam-kuNDlii, etc.

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

[Balvinder]

isii Ghazal ka maqtaa bhii haazir hai

baad marne ke mirii qabr pe aayaa "Gaafil"
yaad aaii mire qaatil ko vafaa mere baad

[rvka...@gmail.com]

meer

[rvka...@gmail.com]

Can someone please interpret the gazal Aake Sajjada Nashin for me. I am a beginer in Urdu.

Regards
Raghu

[rvka...@gmail.com]

Hi Vijay

I am Raghu... I am falling in love with Urdu Ghazals and the process is on. It obviously begun with listening to gazals and then trying to understand them. I was lucky to stumble upon Mehdi Hassan and then i have begun my journey.

Meer is the lord of Urdu Ghazals though I know that at his time urdu would have different than what we know and may not be even called urdu. i stunned to read your post while i was searching on Aake sajjada nasin. ... i was intrigued and therefore thought of writing to you.

Why do you say that "is zamiin mein mir ki koii ghazal nahiin hain"... is it because he dint have the option of printing or publishing it. Is all Meer just a collection of hear say by people. If that is the case it is sad.

Pleas throw some light also you can guide me to your blogs or any other reading material I am good student... will read and come back with more questions.

Regards
Raghu

[vij...@hotmail.co.uk]

Raghu sahib,

The phrase 'is zamiin meN Miir kii koii Ghazal nahiiN hai' is not by me but by Janaab Ali Sardaar Jaafri. He has written it in the foreword to his collection of Ghazlas from Deewan-e-Miir (various Deewans of Miir).

I appreciated your compliment but I am no expert on Miir. I am someone a bit like you, who got interested in Urdu Ghazals by listening to Mehdi Hassan and Ghulam Ali. You will find a wealth of information on Urdu poetry on this very newsgroup,i.e. ALUP.

I have no blog. I did however engage in a long discussion with someone from Kerala, someone who knew no Urdu, about the meaning and interpretation of popular Ghazals, in a sister newsgroup RMIM. Following is the link to that thread, which you may or may not find helpful:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.indian.misc/dZhm1Ih0Ilw%5B1-25%5D

Best regards,

Vijay

[ch.ta...@gmail.com]

yes it is not found in meer's divaan because its not meer,it is tribute,from lucknow of similar andaaz e bayaañ,original author is munawwar khan "ghafil" you can find him on rekhta.org

[ch.ta...@gmail.com]

aap ne sahi farmaya,,ho sakta hai jab meer lakhnao aye ho,tab ek misra chedha ho,uspe sab shayr ne apna apna kalam sunaya ho,usi radeef pe ,"koi lene ka ka nahi nam e wafa mere bad"ye jo ""lene ka"" lafz hai,ye dakkhani andaz e sukhan,hyderabad k ho skte hai,or zada tar sher andaz e lakhnao me hai,or kuch andaz e dilli,meer lukhnao dilli dono andaz bakhoob jante the,,thanks for your explaination
--Chaudhary Tafheem Ahmad

[pune...@gmail.com]

citing "https://rekhta.org/ghazals/aa-ke-sajjaada-nashiin-qais-huaa-mere-baad-munawar-khan-ghafil-ghazals" written by Munawar Khan Ghafil.

apparently, Meer has been quoted in maqta for the convenience of Singer.

thanks..

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 at 8:29:08 PM UTC+5:30, RC wrote:

[Vijay Kumar]

Thanks for this. Clears up the confusion once and for all. Also, it is an entirely different maqta altogether.

Vijay

[Vijay Kumar]

Also, couldn't help notice that the phrase as posted on Rekhta is 'koii jaa' and not 'merii jaa'. We seem to be back to square one Raj sahib and Balwinder sahib.

[RC]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 at 8:59:08 AM UTC-6, RC wrote:
> Hello all -
>
> I wonder if anyone here can shed light on the author of the Ghazal:
>
> "aa ke sajjada.nisheeN Qais huaa mere ba'ad"
>
> This has been popularized by the late Mehdi Hassan sahab (and attributed to Meer) -- but the Ghazal is not found in Meer's kulliyaat.
>
> Thanks,
> RC

Following on my own post from 2013, the full Ghazal from Ghaafil's deevaan published by Naval Kishor:

دیوان غافل مطبع نول کشور سے یہ غزل دیکھ کر نقل کی گئی۔

آ کے سجّادہ نشیں قیس ہوا میرے بعد
نہ رہی دشت میں خالی مری جا میرے بعد

میان میں اس نے جو کی تیغِ جفا میرے بعد
خوں گرفتہ کوئی کیا اور نہ تھا میرے بعد

دوستی کا بھی تجھے پاس نہ آیا ہے ہے
تُو نے دشمن سے کیا میرا گلا میرے بعد

گرم بازار ہی الفت ہے مجھی سے ورنہ
کوئی لینے کا نہیں نامِ وفا میرے بعد

منہ پہ لے دامنِ گُل روئیں گے مرغانِ چمن
باغ میں خاک اڑائے گی صبا میرے بعد

چاک اسی غم سے گریبان کیا ہے میں نے
کون کھولے گا ترے بندِ قبا میرے بعد

اب تو ہنس ہنس کے لگاتا ہے وہ مہندی لیکن
خوں رُلائے گا اسے رنگِ حنا میرے بعد

میں تو گلزار سے دل تنگ چلا غنچہ روش
مجھ کو کیا پھر جو کوئی پھول کھِلا میرے بعد

وہ ہوا خواہِ چمن ہوں کہ چمن میں ہر صبح
پہلے میں آتا ہوں اور بادِ صبا میرے بعد

سن کے مرنے کی خبر یار مرے گھر آیا
یعنی مقبول ہوئی میری دعا میرے بعد

ذبح کر کے مجھے نادم یہ ہوا وہ قاتل
ہاتھ میں پھر کبھی خنجر نہ لیا میرے بعد

میری ہی زمزمہ سنجی سے چمن تھا آباد
کیا صیاد نے اک اک کو رہا میرے بعد

آ گیا بیچ میں اس زلف کی اک میں نادان
نہ ہوا کوئی گرفتارِ بلا میرے بعد

قتل تو کرتے ہو پر خوب ہی پچھتاؤ گے
مجھ سا ملنے کا نہیں اہلِ وفا میرے بعد

برگِ گُل لائی صبا قبر پہ میرے نہ نسیم
پھِر گئی ایسی زمانے کی ہوا میرے بعد

گر پڑے آنکھ سے اس کی بھی یکایک آنسو
ذکر محفل میں جو کچھ میرا ہوا میرے بعد

تہِ شمشیر یہی سوچ ہے مقتل میں مجھے
دیکھیے اب کسے لاتی ہے قضا میرے بعد

شرط یاری یہی ہوتی ہے کہ تُو نے غافلؔ
بھول کر بھی نہ مجھے یاد کیا میرے بعد

۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔

منور خان غافلؔ

-----------------

[Naseer]

Rajiv SaaHib aadaab 3arz hai.

lagtaa hai kih aap kii justujuu aur jaaNfishaanii aaxir-i-kaar rang laa'ii hai.

After you had solved the mystery once and for all, I thought I will search for this poet and see what's there. Strangely enough, in Urdu Mehfil this Ghazal was presented in 2007! The diivaan was apparently published in 1872

Just one or two minor corrections

4) گرم بازاریء الفت ہے مجھی سے ورنہ

کوئی لینے کا نہیں نامِ وفا میرے بعد

5) منہ پہ لے دامنِ گُل روئیں گے مرغانِ چمن
باغ میں خاک اُڑاوے گی صبا میرے بعد

7) اب تو ہنس ہنس کے لگاتا ہے وہ منہندی لیکن
خوں رُلاوے گا اسے رنگِ حنا میرے بعد

10) سن کے مرنے کی خبر یار مرے گھر آیا
یعنی مقبول ہوئی میری وفا میرے بعد

15) برگِ گُل لائی صبا قبر پہ میری نہ نسیم

پھِر گئی ایسی زمانے کی ہوا میرے بعد

Naseer

[vk72...@gmail.com]

Rajiv sahib, pahle to aap ka shukriya ki aap ne yeh puuri Ghazal ham tak
pohaNchaii. Aur Naseer sahib, aap yaqiin kareN ki maiN ne 'qalam' uThaaii
hii thii ik mud'aa uThaane ke liye ki aap ka Khat dekha aur mujhe merii baat ka jawaab mil gaya. mujhe 'garm bazaar hii ulfat hai mujhii se warna' tarkiib samjhne meN mushkil aa rahii thii. wazn ke lihaaz se bazaarii-e-ulfat sahii lagta thaa lekin mujhe yeh nahiiN maluum tha ki 'bazaar-e-ulfat' ko 'bazaarii-e-ulfat' likha jaa sakta hai ki nahiiN. aap ka shukriya ki aap ne puuchne se pahle hii merii uljhan suljhaa dii.

Best regards,

Vijay

[RC]

aadaab 'arz Naseer sahib aur deegar ahbaab:

Ghazal par nishaandihi karne ka aap ka tah-e-dil se shukriya. I will mark the corrections locally. Most appreciated.

Now, I have a request for you -- if Meer has at least one or more couplets in this zameen, would anyone here have all those couplets? Meer's corpus of work is huge, so going through it page by page, Ghazal by Ghazal would be a huge task, but hopefully, someone has already compiled or seen a reference to all of the undisputed verses of "Meer" in this zameen, and can share here.


Best wishes as always.
RC

[RC]

aadaab Vijay sahib:

Naseer sahib was kind enough to fix all my typographical errors, and I am as grateful as you are in the matter. I was simply in a hurry to close out the long standing query here.

Wish you all well.
RC

[vijay...@gmail.com]

Rajiv sahib,

is laRi ke shuru meN agar aap mera jawaab dekheN to main ne Ali Sardar Jaafri ko quote kiya thaa ki "Is zamiin meN Mir ki koii ghazal
nahiiN hai."

I have questions about another couple verses from the Gazal if you and/or Naseer sahib can confirm if I have a point.

zib'h kar ke mujhe naadim yih huua voh qaatil
haath meN phir kabhii Khanjar na liya mere baad

is she'r ke pahle misre meN, mujhe lag raha hai ki lafz 'yih' ki jagah 'yuuN' hona chaahie.

aa gaya biich meN us zulf kii ik main naadaan
na huua koii gariftaar-e-balaa mere baad

is she'r ke pahle misre meN 'kii' ki jagah 'ke' honaan chaahie, naihiiN?

Best regards,

Vijay

[RC]

I believe you are right on both counts here.

RC

[Naseer]

Vijay SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

For the first shi3r, the wording is with "yih" although I can understand your reasoning for "yuuN". "yih" here means "is qadar" and this is attested in reputable dictionaries.

For your second query, you have a point and it should be "ke" (کے). Perhaps, Rajiv SaaHib should also make an amendment for this misra3 too.

Naseer

[B.G. M.]

Bahot hi dilkash guftguu ho rahii hai, is topic ki har post se kuChh nah kuChh seekhne ko mil rahaa hai.
Ik she’r ke m’aani ab bhi kuChh mubham saa hai woh she’r yeh hai

میں تو گلزار سے دل تنگ چلا غنچہ روش
مجھ کو کیا پھر جو کوئی پھول کھِلا میرے بعد

duusraa misra’ to saaf hai, pehlaa Theek we samajh nahiiN aa rahaa. Kyaa aap meN se ko’ii is par kuChh roshnii Daal kar is ke m’aani samjhaa sakegaa? BaRii navaazish hogii

=========================🙏

[Naseer]

BGM SaaHib, aadaab.

I think it means something like:

maiN to bin khili kalii kii tarH gulzaar se taNg aa kar chalaa gayaa
ab mujhe kyaa agar ko'ii kalii phuul banii mere chale jaane ke ba3d

Naseer

[B.G. M.]

Waa..h, Naseer saahab! Ab she’r bilkul saaf ho gayaa. It makes perfect sense.
Shukriya yuuN “promptly” samjhaane kaa.

( maiN yeh Khuubsurat Ghazal ko is ki puuri shakil meN Roman meN likh kar Post karnaa chaahtaa huuN, magar is se pehle kyaa aap ko eMail se bhej saktaa huuN taa kih aGhlaat ki nishaandihi Theek se ho jaaye?
Mujhe aap kaa eMail chaahiyegaa.)

[Afzal A. Khan]

Naseer Saheb,

Comparisons with the "nonpareil" Ghalib ghazal in
the same zameen are inevitable :

Kaun hota hai hareef-e-ma'e~mard~afgan-e-'ishq
Hai mukarrar lab-e-saaqi pe sala mere b'ad

Also, IMHO, "Koi lene ka naheeN naam-e-wafaa" doesn't seem
all that faseeh. Perhaps "Koi bhi lega naheeN naam-e-wafaa"
would have been a better choice of words.....


Afzal

[Naseer]

Indeed Afzal SaaHib. Is n't there an izaafat after "mai"?

kaun hotaa hai Hariif-i-mai-i-mard~afghan-i-3ishq
hai mukarrar lab-i-saaqii pih salaa mere ba3d

I too wrote a Ghazal once upon a time although I have no idea in whose zamiin
I was standing in at the time!:-) I hope you and other ALUP friends will like
it.


کوئی اس دشتِ وفا میں نہ چلا میرے بعد
ذرے ذرے پہ مرا نقش رہا میرے بعد

یوں نہ پهر ہوگا کوئی نغمہ سرا میرے بعد
اور ہی ہو گی گلستاں کی ہوا میرے بعد

اس طرح کون اسیرِ خمِ کاکل ہو گا
کس کو راس آئے گی زنداں کی فضا میرے بعد

پھر نہ پابندِ وفا ہو گا کوئی مجھ جیسا
رکھے رہ جائیں گے آدابِ وفا میرے بعد

میں نے تو زہر بهرے جام محبت میں پئے
دیکهئے کس کو شرف ہو یہ عطا میرے بعد

دستِ رنگیں پہ بهلا کس کا لہو چمکے گا
رنگ لانے سے رہا رنگِ حنا میرے بعد

چشم و ابرو کے اشارے تهے نظر میں میری
کون سمجھے گا یہ غمزہ، یہ ادا میرے بعد

راہ سنسان، مکاں خستہ، مکیں افسردہ
کیسا ویران ہوا شہرِ وفا میرے بعد

مجھ سا کوئی بهی نہیں تیرے وفاداروں میں
دیکھ! اڑ جائے گا یہ رنگِ وفا میرے بعد

میں ہی اک واقفِ آدابِ محبت ہوں نصیرؔ
مل کے ڈھونڈیں گے مجھے اہلِ وفا میرے بعد
.....................................

Naseer

[Naseer]

On Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:47:26 UTC+1, Afzal A. Khan wrote:

muHtaram Afzal SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

In my haste to present "my" Ghazal, I overlooked your comment about "Koi lene ka naheeN naam-e-wafaa" not being fasiiH. In my humble understanding of Urdu, this negative verbal form expresses a stronger and more emphatic future than "Koi lega naheeN naam-e-wafaa..".

Koi lene ka naheeN naam-e-wafaa" = No one is (ever) likely to mention the name of fidelity...

"Koi lega naheeN naam-e-wafaa.." = No one will mention the name of fidelity

Naseer

[Naseer]

BJM SaaHib aadaab.

I have sent you a personal reply. I hope you have received my message.

Naseer

[Vijay Kumar]

aadaab Naseer sahib. aap ki Gazal dekhi, bahut pasaN aaii. Aap to janaab chhupe rustam nikale. Anyone who can say a Gazal within the strict rules of prosody of Gazal writing, has a higher place in my eyes. Your status has instantly doubled for me. (As far as my limited understanding of such matters stretches, you Gazal is in proper meter).

Hopefully you will continue to post more of your poetry.

Now a couple of points about one of the she’rs of Gafil:

First of all, personally, I too prefer the ‘koii lene ka nahiiN naam-wafa’ construct. Other than your explanation, it also sounds to my ears from an other era and more endearing.

Which brings me to me second point. Rather a question:

muNh pe le daaman-e-gul roeNge murGaan-e-chaman
baaG meN Khaak uRaavegii sabaa mere baad.

In this above she’r, ‘uRaavegii’ similarly sounds from a different time than ‘uRaaegii’, and has its own charm. My first question is if there is any subtle differences of meaning in these two expressions?

And secondly, to reconcile better the two lines, can we use ‘roveNge’ in place of ‘roeNge’ in the first line? Perhaps Gafil did use roveNge? If you could please double check?

Best regards,

Vijay

[Naseer]

Vijay SaaHib, tasliimaat.

is se pahle kih mujh par Ghazal kaa Haqiiqii shaa3ir muqaddimah daa'ir kar de, is Ghazal ke asl Haq-daar kaa naam bataanaa zaruurii hai. un kaa naam hai, "Piir Sayyid Naseerud_diin Naseer Giilaanii" (Sajjaadah-nashiin GolRaa Shareef, Pakistan). yih to maiN ne Afzal SaaHib se az raah-i-mazaaq kah diyaa kih maiN ne yih Ghazal likhii hai. lihaazaa aap merii qadr-o-faziilat ko usii jagah pih le aa'eN jahaaN aap ne mujhe pahle rakhaa hu'aa thaa!:-)

Here is a link to 20 poets who composed Ghazals in this "zamiin".

https://www.facebook.com/eikauranaik/posts/%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%A9-%D8%B2%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%88%D8%B1-20-%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%B1-1%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D9%82%DB%8C-%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%88%DB%92-%DA%AF%DB%8C-%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B1%DB%8C-%D9%82%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D8%B3%DB%92-%D8%A2%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B1%DB%92-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D8%A8%DA%BE%D8%B1%DB%8C%DA%BA-%DA%AF%DB%92-%D8%B9%D8%B4%D9%82-/1962977663983004/

To answer your question, the entry in the book itself is "ro'eN ge" and not "roveN ge". I don't believe there is any difference in meaning. One is simply older form of the language.

Turning to Afzal SaaHib's comment, there is another shi3r in the Ghazal with the same structure..

qatl to karte ho par xuub hii pachhtaa'o ge
mujh saa milne kaa nahiiN ahl-i-vafaa mere ba3d

Now, here is a shi3r you will no doubt remember...

is jaal meN makhkhii kabhii aane kii nahiiN hai
jo aap kii siiRhii pih chaRhaa phir nahiiN utraa

Iqbal

ya3nii maiN vuh makkhhii nahiiN jo jaal meN aane vaalii hai. I think, as I have said before, this construction has an additional emphasis of time...I won't enter the web now or in a few minutes time or ever! Do what you will!

Naseer

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 4/13/2019 5:23 PM, Naseer wrote:

> On Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:47:26 UTC+1, Afzal A. Khan wrote:

>
>>> Naseer
>>
>>
>>
>> Naseer Saheb,
>>
>> Comparisons with the "nonpareil" Ghalib ghazal in
>> the same zameen are inevitable :
>>
>> Kaun hota hai hareef-e-ma'e~mard~afgan-e-'ishq
>> Hai mukarrar lab-e-saaqi pe sala mere b'ad
>>
>> Also, IMHO, "Koi lene ka naheeN naam-e-wafaa" doesn't seem
>> all that faseeh. Perhaps "Koi bhi lega naheeN naam-e-wafaa"
>> would have been a better choice of words.....
>>
>>
>> Afzal
>
> Indeed Afzal SaaHib. Is n't there an izaafat after "mai"?
>
> kaun hotaa hai Hariif-i-mai-i-mard~afghan-i-3ishq
> hai mukarrar lab-i-saaqii pih salaa mere ba3d

> Naseer





Naseer Saheb,

You are right. As it is, I find it difficult to inscribe
Urdu words in Roman script. In any case, you and all others
can no doubt figure out which sher I was trying to quote.

As regards the ghazal written by Munawwar Khan Ghaafil, it
seems his deewaan was published in or around 1872. Right now,
I am unable to search the citation in Rekhta. So, one doesn't
really know the time-frame when Ghaafil lived and wrote his
poetry. Looking at the language employed by him, he could have
been a contemporary of Meer Taqi Meer.

It has been suggested that "koi lene ka naheeN" signifies a sort
of eternity till when people would not talk about "wafaa".
I don't really know, though somehow I can't buy this argument.

On the other hand, the argument also serves the purpose of
an admonition or warning : "Dekho, KHabardaar, jo kabhi kisi ne
wafaa ka naam lene ki jur~at bhi ki...." (!!)


Afzal

[Naseer]

On Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:47:26 UTC+1, Afzal A. Khan wrote:

> Also, IMHO, "Koi lene ka naheeN naam-e-wafaa" doesn't seem
> all that faseeh. Perhaps "Koi bhi lega naheeN naam-e-wafaa"
> would have been a better choice of words.....
>
>
> Afzal

muHtaram Afzal SaaHib, aadaab.

Platts explains this kind of construction in the following words...

"The genitive of the infinitive is commonly used in connection with the verbal negative "نہیں" to express a strong negative Future: e.g.

وہ نہیں کرنے کا "he'll not do it or he is not likely to do it."

میں نہیں رہنے کا "I shall not (am not likely to) remain."

Apart from imparting emphasis, I also perceive the meaning in these terms.

He is not one for doing it/ He is not going to do it.

I am not one for staying (here)/ I am not going to stay (here)

Here is a Ghazal by Ghulam Hamadani MusHafi with radiif "nahiiN jaane kaa".





جان سے تا وہ مجھے مار نہیں جانے کا
جان جاوے گی ولے یار نہیں جانے کا

بعد مُردن جو رہیں گے یونہیں وَادِیدہء شوق
المِ حسرت دیدار نہیں جانے کا

مرضِ عشق کی شاید ہو پسِ مرگ، شفا
زندگی میں تو یہ آزار نہیں جانے کا

رحم کر ضعف پر اُس کے کہ چمن تک صیاد
نالہء مرغِ گرفتار نہیں جانے کا

دستِ چالاک کی یہ خو ہے تو مرتے مرتے
ہاتھ سے دامنِ دلدار نہیں جانے کا

گر یہی چشم کی مستی ہے تری اے ساقی
میکدہ سے کوئی ہُشیار نہیں جانے کا

اے طبیبو! نہ اذیت دو مجھے بہر خُدا
آپ دردِ دلِ بیمار نہیں جانے کا

گر شبِ وصل بھی ہم لوگ کریں گے نالہ
یہ یقیں ہے کہ وہ بیکار نہیں جانے کا

کوچہء عشق میں سخت اس نے اذیت کھینچی
اب اُدھر مصحفیء زار نہیں جانے کا

[B.G. M.]

Waa..h, Naseer Saahab!
You are so resourceful! Amazing!

[Naseer]

On Monday, 15 April 2019 14:33:22 UTC+1, B.G. M. wrote:
> Waa..h, Naseer Saahab!
>

qasad kartaa huuN jo us dar se kahiiN jaane kaa
dil yih kahtaa hai kih tuu jaa maiN nahiiN jaane kaa

raat aNdherii hai sataane kaa mire qasad nah kar
yih ko'ii vaqt hai ao zuhrah-jabiiN jaane kaa

Mushafi

[Raj Kumar]

***janaab Naseer saaHib, mus_Hafi ke jo ash'aar aap ne aaj chaspaaN kiye haiN nihaayat dilchasp haiN, albatta maiN yahaaN aek chhoTi si baat arz karnaa chaahuuN ga.

voh yeh k in ash'aar meN jo lafz "qasad" aap ne likkhaa hai, voh saHeeH nahiiN lag rahaa. is talaffuz se dono misr'e (jahaaN yeh lafz likkhaa gayaa hai) Khaarij-az-baHr ho rahe haiN. meri raaye meN, in dono ash'aar meN lafz "qasd" ka maqaam hai aur Ghaaliban "qasd" hi is lafz ka saHeeH talaffuz hai.

aur agar yeh dono talaffuz ravaa haiN, to bhi (baHr ke liHaaz se) in ash'aar meN "qasd" hi hona chaahiye.

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

[Naseer]

On Friday, 14 June 2019 22:53:49 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
>
> ***janaab Naseer saaHib, mus_Hafi ke jo ash'aar aap ne aaj chaspaaN kiye haiN nihaayat dilchasp haiN, albatta maiN yahaaN aek chhoTi si baat arz karnaa chaahuuN ga.
>
> voh yeh k in ash'aar meN jo lafz "qasad" aap ne likkhaa hai, voh saHeeH nahiiN lag rahaa. is talaffuz se dono misr'e (jahaaN yeh lafz likkhaa gayaa hai) Khaarij-az-baHr ho rahe haiN. meri raaye meN, in dono ash'aar meN lafz "qasd" ka maqaam hai aur Ghaaliban "qasd" hi is lafz ka saHeeH talaffuz hai.
>
> aur agar yeh dono talaffuz ravaa haiN, to bhi (baHr ke liHaaz se) in ash'aar meN "qasd" hi hona chaahiye.
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

tashiih ke liye shukriyah Raj Saahib. aap kaa kahnaa ba-jaa hai kih sahiih talaffuz "qasd" hii hai.

niyaaz-mand.

Naseer