When Did Urdu Originate?
Zafar
> language during mughal times abou 250 years ago
Janaab Sarwar Sb, aadaab:
I concur with all your points that you wrote in response to Dan's
question, but beg to differ at the above statment. The reason is that
if we assume that Urdu developed around 1750, we'll be forced to
delete Mir's "deewaan e awaal" from the annals of Urdu poetry (because
most of it was compiled before the "deadline"). Although this loss
alone would suffice to make one sad, there is much more to it: We
would be forced to live without much of Sauda, Mir Dard and entirely
without Wali Dakani -- who had died well before 1750, i.e., in 1707.
I'm writing the following lines in an attempt to keep the record
straight:
According to modern research, Khaaja Mas'ood Sa'ad Salmaan -- whose
era spans the 12th century AD -- is the first Urdu poet. Amir Khusro
-- who died in 1325 -- is also an important Urdu poet (although the
language was certainly not known as Urdu, but as our beloved Bard has
already made the point, what's in a name?)
Now the big question: when did Urdu originate? One must say it isn't
an easy question to answer but many people think Urdu took roots long
before Muslims started coming to India. Just consider that such common
Urdu words as jhoNpaRee, naanaa, saalaa, aaNchal, gehnaa, kos,
dhatooraa, karailaa, phaaTak, DanDaa, daalaan, DheeT, aRos paRos,
dhoom dhaam -- to name just a few -- were in vogue long before the
arrival of Arians in Indopak! In fact, these words belong to the
ManDaa language that was spoken in parts of what is now Pakistan some
six thousand years ago!!!
I wish I had more time ... but I'd conclude my post on one last note:
The interaction between Indian native languages and "Muslim" languages
(Arabic and Persian) dates back to the era before the advent of Islam:
there are three "Sanskrit" words in the Qura'an!
Sincerely,
Zafar
munyas
> The interaction between Indian native languages and "Muslim" languages
> (Arabic and Persian) dates back to the era before the advent of Islam:
> there are three "Sanskrit" words in the Qura'an!
>
Zube
Sarwar Alam Raz
> > language during mughal times abou 250 years ago
Zafar saaheb aadaab
I stand corrected for the historical error. Thanks! Please tell me
either here or by e-mail the three Sanskrit words in The Quran. I am
intensely interested in The Quran and have been studying it all my
life. This is very intriguing.
Sarwar
UVR
Which are these words? Which chapter/verse are they from?
-UVR.
Tejjit Singh Kalsi
> The interaction between Indian native languages and "Muslim" languages
> (Arabic and Persian) dates back to the era before the advent of Islam:
> there are three "Sanskrit" words in the Qura'an!
>
Dear Zafar Saahib,
I do hope that you are able to take some more time to delve into this
very interesting subject.
The origins of Urdu is a much-debated but elusive subject. As I am an
ardent student of languages and linguistics, it is of utmost
importance and interest to me. You have brought out some very exciting
aspects of the issue.
I have always found it difficult to believe the theory that Urdu
evolved in the military camps of emperor Shahjahan (1628-1658). In my
experience, the basic Persian-Arabic vocabulary is very deeply
ingrained in Indian languages. Let me just mention two points here:
1. Basic Persian-Arabic words are part and parcel of several 'dehaati
bolis' (rural dialects) of Northern India, i.e. dialects spoken even
by illiterate persons who have never read a single line of written
language.
2. This basic Persian-Arabic vocabulary is also very much present in
the compositions of the Sikh gurus including those of our first guru,
Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, who lived 1469-1539. That is to say, he was
born in the reign of sultan Bahlool Lodi and died in the reign of
emperor Humayun.
So, long before emperor Shahjahan, these basic words of Persian-Arabic
origin had naturalized in the languages of Northern India.
The interesting question is: when did this process begin ? If that is
first established, it might be easier to determine when the language
we call Urdu to-day started to emerge. You seem to have access to the
results of some latest research on the topic. I would be infinitely
grateful if you could share those with us.
And I too would like to know where these 3 Sanskrit words are to be
found in the holy Quran.
Regards,
T. S. Kalsi
Zafar
Boy, I guess my hastily scrawled lines have created quite a noise!
(Now that the "audience" is mostly Urdu-daan tabqa, I guess we can
safely switch back to "Urdu mode.")
sab se pehle wo teen alfaaz jin kaa Ghaaliban ka'ee logoN ko intizaar
hai:
Syed Salmaan Nadwee saahib ne 1903 meN aik kitaab tasneef kee thee,
"Arab o Hind ke Ta'aluqaat". us kitaab meN unhoN ne teen Qur'aanee
alfaaz ko Hindi ul asl bataayaa hai, "mushk" (mask, perfume derived
from dear), "zanjabeel" (adrak, ginger) aur "kaafoor" (camphor). is ke
ilaawa ba'az logoN "sundus" aur "hind" (ba ma'anee "talwaar" yaa 100
oonToN kaa giroh) bhee Sanskrit ke alfaaz haiN jo Hadith meN to haiN.
ye alfaaz Hindustaan se Arab malaah apne saath Arabia le gaye aur
rafta rafta ye Arabi meN musta'amal ho gaye.
bar sabeel e tazkira, yahaaN is baat kaa zikr bhee dilchaspee se
Khaalee na hogaa k aise 2 sahaaba bhee guzre haiN jin kaa ta'aluq
Hindustan se thaa, ya'anee Hazrat Sarmaanak aur Hazrat Ratan. Hazrat
Ratan ne ka'ee hadeeseN bhee naql kee haiN jo "Al Rataniyaat" ke naam
se mash-hoor haiN.
> I have always found it difficult to believe the theory that Urdu
> evolved in the military camps of emperor Shahjahan (1628-1658).
ko'ee ta'ajub naheeN k ye baat itnee mash-hoor hai kyoNke is
"nazariye" ke paish karne waaloN meN Mir Aman Dehlvi (saahib e "BaaGh
o Bahaar"), Maulana Azad (saahib e "Aab e Hayaat") aur janaab Sir Syed
jaisee hasteeyaaN shaamil theeN, jinhoN ne baGhair soche samjhe Urdu
ko Shahjahan se nathee kar diyaa. sawaal ye hai k agar Urdu Shahjahan
ke daur meN 17weeN sadee meN tashkeel paayee to phir ye konsee zubaan
hai jo Amir Khusro 3 sadiyaaN pehle teheer farmaa ga'e the?
anaar kyoN na chakhaa?
wazeer kyoN na rakhaa?
.......daanaa na thaa!
gosht kyoN na khaayaa?
Doom kyoN na gaayaa?
.......galaa na thaa!
> The interesting question is: when did this process begin ? If that is
> first established, it might be easier to determine when the language
> we call Urdu to-day started to emerge. You seem to have access to the
> results of some latest research on the topic. I would be infinitely
> grateful if you could share those with us.
>
jaisaa k maiN arz kar chukaa, is sawaal kaa jawaab aasaan naheeN. ye
aise hee hai jaise kisee dariyaa kaa maNba' (origin) talaash karnaa!
aap muKhtalif "threads" par chaleN to muKhtalif jawaabaat milte haiN.
Khair, jo kuchh maiN ne paRhaa hai, us kee raushnee meN koshish karooN
gaa k is daqeeq mas'ale par kuchh raushnee Daal sakooN:
pehle ye baat ho chukee k Urdu kee daaGh bail zamaana e qadeem meN
paRnaa shuroo ho gayee thee. Muhammad bin Qasim ne 712 meN Sindh par
hamla kar ke wahaaN apnee hukoomat qaaim kar lee thee. us kee fauj meN
Arabs ke ilaawaa kaafee ta'adaad meN Farsi bolne waale sipaahee bhee
maujood the. zaahir hai k in donoN zubaanoN kaa muqaamee zabaanoN ke
saath iKhtilaat huwaa ho gaa. MBQ kee maqbooliyat kaa andaaza is baat
se lagaaee'e k Sindh meN muqaamee aabaadee ne us ko autaar maan kar
poojnaa shuroo kar diyaa thaa!
is ke taqreeban 3 sau saal ba'ad Mahmood of Ghazna ne Hindustan par
hamle shuru kar diye. Mahmood kee fauj meN taqreeban sabhee Farsi
bolne waale the. Mahmood kaa mustaqil darul Khilaafa Lahore thaa aur
aise shawaahid maujood haiN ko wo bhee yahaaN kee maqaamee zubaaneN
jaantaa thaa kyoN ke Kalanjar ke raaja ne Mahmood ko aik qaseeda Hindi
meN likh kar bhejaa thaa aur Mahmood ne us ko in'aam se nawaazaa thaa.
Mahmood kee shaahee muhr par bhee Sanskrit ke alfaaz raqm the.
Mahmood ke jan-nasheenoN ne 170 saal tak Lahore par hukoomat kee. is
ke ilaawaa Punjab waise bhee shumaaalee (Afghanistan aur wastee Asia,
jahaaN kee zubaan Farsi thee) se aane waaloN kee aamaaj-gaah banaa
huwaa thaa. is liye Farsi aur Arabi ke alfaaz muqaamee zubaanoN meN
aur yahaaN ke alfaaz Arabi aur Farsi meN shaamil hone lage. aap ne
Farsi ke azeem shaa'ir Hakeem Sinaa'ee (died 1147 AD) ke baare meN
sunaa hogaa. un kaa aik misra' hai:
na dar aaN deeda qatra e "paanee"!
Urdu ke aik zabardast muhaqqiq janaab Hafiz Mahmood Shirani (Akhtar
Shirani ke waalid) apnee shaah-kaar kitaab "Punjab MeN Urdu" meN ye
likhte haiN k Urdu kaa aaGhaaz Punjab meN Punjabi zubaan ke zair e
asar huwaa. ba'ad meN jab Qutub ud Din Aibak ne Lahore kee bajaa'e
apnaa daarul Khilaafa Delhi ko banaa liyaa (1189 AD) to us ke saath
saath laakhoN sipaahee, mazdoor, sarkaaree mulaazmeen, taajir aur 'aam
log hijrat kar ke Delhi chale gaye. Delhi aur us ke mulhiqa ilaaqoN
meN us waqt KhaRee Bolee bolee jaatee thee. musalmaan jab yahaaN
puhnche to un kee isee Khaam zubaan kaa KhaRee Bolee se iKhtilaat o
irtibaat huwaa. Urdu ne apnaa buniyaadee Dhaanchaa KhaRee Bolee se
lete huwe, aur saath saath Punjabi aur doosree "Pakistani" zubaanoN
kee grammar aur vocabulary se istifaada karte huwe aahista aahista
jadeed Urdu kee shakl iKhtiyaar kar lee.
ba'az log (jaise In'aamul Haq Kausar apnee kitaab "Baluchistan MeN
Urdu" meN) ye bhee kehte haiN k Urdu kaa asl gehwaaraa Pakistan kaa
sooba Baluchistan hai (jis kee sarhad Iran se miltee hai). Baluchi
zubaan meN Farsi aur Sanskrit-origin alfaaz saath saath milte haiN.
aaKhir meN is tamaam behes kaa maa-haasil:
1.
Urdu kaa aaGhaaz un ilaaqoN meN huwaa jo aaj Pakistan meN shaamil haiN
(ya'anee Sindh, Punjab aur Baluchistan).
2.
yahaaN Farsi, Arabi, Punjabi, Pashtu, Sindhi, waGhera ke aapasee
milaap se aik "Khaam" (raw) zubaan ma'araz e wujood meN aa'ee.
3.
jab 12weeN sadee meN musalmaan Delhi gaye to apne saath yahee Khaam
zubaan le gaye.
4.
musalmaanoN ne Delhi meN apnee Khaam zubaan ko KhaRee Bolee se milaa
kar aik aisee zubaan bolnaa shuroo kar dee jo aaj Urdu kehlaatee hai.
kitaabiyaat (bibliography):
1. Punjab MeN Urdu; Hafiz Mahmood Shirani
2. Urdu Zubaan Kyaa Hai?; Dr. Saleem AKhtar
3. Urdu Adab Kee Tanqeedee TaareeKh; Prof. Ehtisham Hussain
4. Urdu Adab Kee Mu'aashiratee aur Ilmee TaareeKh, A. Farooqi
etc.
Sincerely,
Zafar
Irfan 'Abid'
>
> Boy, I guess my hastily scrawled lines have created quite a noise!
>
> (Now that the "audience" is mostly Urdu-daan tabqa, I guess we can
> safely switch back to "Urdu mode.")
>
> sab se pehle wo teen alfaaz jin kaa Ghaaliban ka'ee logoN ko intizaar
> hai:
>
> Syed Salmaan Nadwee saahib ne 1903 meN aik kitaab tasneef kee thee,
> "Arab o Hind ke Ta'aluqaat". us kitaab meN unhoN ne teen Qur'aanee
> alfaaz ko Hindi ul asl bataayaa hai, "mushk" (mask, perfume derived
> from dear), "zanjabeel" (adrak, ginger) aur "kaafoor" (camphor). is ke
> ilaawa ba'az logoN "sundus" aur "hind" (ba ma'anee "talwaar" yaa 100
> oonToN kaa giroh) bhee Sanskrit ke alfaaz haiN jo Hadith meN to haiN.
> ye alfaaz Hindustaan se Arab malaah apne saath Arabia le gaye aur
> rafta rafta ye Arabi meN musta'amal ho gaye.
>
>
>
> 1. Punjab MeN Urdu; Hafiz Mahmood Shirani
> 2. Urdu Zubaan Kyaa Hai?; Dr. Saleem AKhtar
> 3. Urdu Adab Kee Tanqeedee TaareeKh; Prof. Ehtisham Hussain
> 4. Urdu Adab Kee Mu'aashiratee aur Ilmee TaareeKh, A. Farooqi
> etc.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Zafar
Zafar Sb, aadaab!
aap hairat-angez kaarnaame itnii kasrat se anjaam de rahe haiN haiN ki
ab hairat kaa element bhii halkaa paRtaa jaa rahaa hai! aap ne ek baar
phir apnii tahqiiqii salaahiyaat kaa lohaa manvaa liyaa!
niyaazmand,
Irfan 'Abid'
UVR
>
> sab se pehle wo teen alfaaz jin kaa Ghaaliban ka'ee logoN ko intizaar
> hai:
>
> Syed Salmaan Nadwee saahib ne 1903 meN aik kitaab tasneef kee thee,
> "Arab o Hind ke Ta'aluqaat". us kitaab meN unhoN ne teen Qur'aanee
> alfaaz ko Hindi ul asl bataayaa hai, "mushk" (mask, perfume derived
> from dear), "zanjabeel" (adrak, ginger) aur "kaafoor" (camphor). is ke
> ilaawa ba'az logoN "sundus" aur "hind" (ba ma'anee "talwaar" yaa 100
> oonToN kaa giroh) bhee Sanskrit ke alfaaz haiN jo Hadith meN to haiN.
> ye alfaaz Hindustaan se Arab malaah apne saath Arabia le gaye aur
> rafta rafta ye Arabi meN musta'amal ho gaye.
Zafar sahib, aadaab.
Qur`aan ke alfaaz to aap ne post kar diye, lekin yeh to bataayaa hi
nahiiN keh inke original Sanskrit versions kyaa haiN. maiN yeh
isliye pooch rahaa hooN, keh jahaaN tak mujhe ma'aloom hai, in teenoN
meiN se sirf AIK hi aisaa lafz hai jo apne ham-ma'ani Sanskrit lafz se
miltaa-jultaa hai.
"karpoora[ka]m" is the Sanskrit word for camphor. Clearly, it could
be the source of 'kafoor'. albattah, maiN aise kisi bhi aise Sanskrit
lafz se aashnaa nahiiN hooN jiske talaffuz (even in a highly corrupted
form) 'mushk' yaa 'zanjabeel' se milte haiN. "kastuuri" is the Sanskrit
word for musk (sometimes aka mR.gakastuuri) and "aardraka[m]" is adrak
(ginger) [see what I mean by 'corrupted form'?].
duniyaa kii aur zubaanoN kii hii tarah Sanskrit meiN bhi ek hi shae
ke ek se zyaadah naam ho sakte haiN. For example, giroh/jhunD ko
"samuuha[m]" bhii kahte haiN, aur "yuutha[m]" bhii. "vyuuha[m]"
bhii istimaal hotaa hai. lekin "sundus" yaa "hind" jaisa koi lafz
talwaar (khaDga[H/m]) ke liye maiN ne nahiN sunaa.
I will be very grateful to you if you could post the Sanskrit words
from which these words are said to have been derived. aap ki hii
tarah is topic meiN meri bhi dilchaspi hai! Thank you.
aap ne Qur`aan ke 3 alfaaz kaa zikr kiyaa hai to lijiye ek dilchasp
"fact" yeh bhi suniye keh Goswani Tulsidas rachit ShriRaamCharitMaanas
ke "baal kaaND" (chapter 1) meiN (at least) 3 Arabi ke alfaaz haiN!
kahiye, hai na maze ki baat!
-UVR
Zafar
> nahiiN keh inke original Sanskrit versions kyaa haiN. maiN yeh
> isliye pooch rahaa hooN, keh jahaaN tak mujhe ma'aloom hai, in teenoN
> meiN se sirf AIK hi aisaa lafz hai jo apne ham-ma'ani Sanskrit lafz se
> miltaa-jultaa hai.
>
> "karpoora[ka]m" is the Sanskrit word for camphor. Clearly, it could
> be the source of 'kafoor'. albattah, maiN aise kisi bhi aise Sanskrit
> lafz se aashnaa nahiiN hooN jiske talaffuz (even in a highly corrupted
> form) 'mushk' yaa 'zanjabeel' se milte haiN. "kastuuri" is the Sanskrit
> word for musk (sometimes aka mR.gakastuuri) and "aardraka[m]" is adrak
> (ginger) [see what I mean by 'corrupted form'?].
muhtarim UVR saahib:
sab se pehle to ba sad ma'azarat arz karooN gaa k ye UVR kyaa huwaa?
aisee bhee kyaa parda daaree? lagtaa hai aap ne ALUP meN kisee saahib
yaa saahiba se udhaar liyaa huwaa hai :)) az raah e karam apnaa naam
to bataa deejiye taake muKhaatib karne meN aasaanee ho!
aap kee inaa'yat kaa shukriya. maiN aap ke sawaaloN ke jawaabaat dene
kee koshish kartaa hooN:
1.
mushk: ye lafz Sanskrit kaa hee hai, maiN Marriam Webster Dictionary
(www.m-w.com) se musk kee etymology "copy/paste" kar rahaa hooN:
"Middle English muske, from Middle French musc, from Late Latin
muscus, from Late Greek moschos, from (assumed) Middle Persian musk-,
from Sanskrit muska testicle, from diminutive of mus mouse; akin to
Old English mus mouse."
(maiN ne jab ye pehlee baar paRhaa to baRaa hairaan huwaa thaa k
English "mouse" kaa maaKhiz Sanskrit "moos" hai. ba'ad meN chand
qadeem Urdu taraakeeb nazar aa'eeN jin meN "moos" iste'maal huwaa
thaa.)
2.
zanjabeel:
"...Middle English, from Old English gingifer, from Medieval Latin
gingiber, alteration of Latin zingiber, from Greek zingiberi,
ultimately from Pali singivEra."
ye lafz yahaaN Pali kaa bataayaa gayaa hai. aap se darKhaast hai k is
par raushanee DaaleN k ye Sanskrit meN kis shakl meN iste'maal hotaa
hai. ye to zaahir hai "singiveer" se Arabi meN "zanjabeel" ban gayaa
he.
2.
kaafoor kaa aap ne Khud hee bataa diyaa hai, shukriya!
>
> duniyaa kii aur zubaanoN kii hii tarah Sanskrit meiN bhi ek hi shae
> ke ek se zyaadah naam ho sakte haiN. For example, giroh/jhunD ko
> "samuuha[m]" bhii kahte haiN, aur "yuutha[m]" bhii. "vyuuha[m]"
> bhii istimaal hotaa hai. lekin "sundus" yaa "hind" jaisa koi lafz
> talwaar (khaDga[H/m]) ke liye maiN ne nahiN sunaa.
>
"hind" ba-ma'anee "talwaar" kee kahaanee ye hai k Hindustan meN
banaa'ee jaane waalee talwaareN apnee kaaT aur paa'idaaree kee wajah
se Arabia meN baRee maqbool theeN. is liye Hind se aane waalee
talwaaroN kaa naam hee "Hind" paR gayaa, jo k linguistics meN ziyaada
ta'ajub kee baat naheeN. is kee aik dilchasp misaal (jis kaa ALUP meN
kaafee charchaa rahaa thaa) "turkey" hai. jab Europeans America ga'e
to wahaaN unhoN ne aik parinda dekhaa (which is indigenous to North
America) to wo ise "ginea fowl" samjh baiThe, jo Euorope meN Turkey se
aataa thaa. chunaanche parinde kaa naam turkey paR gayaa!)
> aap ne Qur`aan ke 3 alfaaz kaa zikr kiyaa hai to lijiye ek dilchasp
> "fact" yeh bhi suniye keh Goswani Tulsidas rachit ShriRaamCharitMaanas
> ke "baal kaaND" (chapter 1) meiN (at least) 3 Arabi ke alfaaz haiN!
> kahiye, hai na maze ki baat!
>
is piece of information ke liye bhee bahut shukriya. waise mujhe
ma'aloom naheeN k kitaab e mazkoora kis daur se ta'aluq rakhtee hai.
is ke ilaawaa "Prithvi Raaj Raasaa" meN bhee 10% alfaaz Arabi aur
Farsi ke haiN (lekin Raj Raasaa ko ka'ee log Prithvi Raj ke ehd kaa
naheeN maante)
aap ne aik inkishaaf kiyaa hai to aik mere taraf se bhee sun lijiye:
aik tehqeeq ke mutaabiq Mahaa Bhaarat meN Yudushtr jee (please correct
the transliteration) ne Arabi meN taqreer kee thee!!!
Sincerely,
Zafar
Zafar
> to wahaaN unhoN ne aik parinda dekhaa (which is indigenous to North
> America) to wo ise "ginea fowl" samjh baiThe, jo Euorope meN Turkey se
> aataa thaa. chunaanche parinde kaa naam turkey paR gayaa!)
>
"Guinea Fowl" ke spellings Ghalat likhaa baiThaa hooN. tas-heeh kar
leeji'e gaa. is ke ilaawa Hind ba-ma'anee 100 oonT waalee baat bhee
bhool gayaa thaa. jaisaa k aap sabhee jaante haiN, arithmatic ko
Hindustan meN us qadeem daur meN baRee taraqqee milee thee. AraboN ne
shaayad Hindustanee gintee se mutaasir ho kar aik "quantity" kaa naam
hee "Hind" rakh diyaa. meraa Khayaal hai k linguistis meN is qism kee
misaaleN bhee mil jaayeN gee, lekin un kee talaash kaa kaam maiN aap
par chhoRtaa hooN :)
Regards,
Zafar
Tejjit Singh Kalsi
> zanjabeel:
>
> "...Middle English, from Old English gingifer, from Medieval Latin
> gingiber, alteration of Latin zingiber, from Greek zingiberi,
> ultimately from Pali singivEra."
>
> ye lafz yahaaN Pali kaa bataayaa gayaa hai. aap se darKhaast hai k is
> par raushanee DaaleN k ye Sanskrit meN kis shakl meN iste'maal hotaa
> hai. ye to zaahir hai "singiveer" se Arabi meN "zanjabeel" ban gayaa
> he.
>
yeh mu'amala to bahut hi dilchasp ho gayaa hai! dekhiye ham bhi
inkishaaf karne gaye to kyaa milaa:
The etymology of 'ginger' from the Chambers 20th Century Dictionary-
[M.E. gingivere - O.Fr. gengibre - L.L. gingiber - L. zingiber - Gr.
zingiberis - Prakrit - Sans. srnga,horn, vera,body; Malayalam
inchiver.]
As Pali is one of the Prakrits, this confirms the findings of Zafar
Saahib.
At the risk of being trivial, let me just mention it anyway that
"Hind/Hindu" are the Persian forms of the Sanskrit words
"Sindh/Sindhu".
Regards,
T. S. Kalsi
Tejjit Singh Kalsi
CONTINUED.....
This is the etymology of 'ginger' from Dictionary.com:
[Middle English gingivere, from Old English gingifer, and from Old
French gingivre both from Medieval Latin gingiber, from Latin
zingiberi, from Greek zingiberis, of Middle Indic origin(akin to Pali
singiveram), from Dravidian : akin to Tamil ińci, ginger (of
southeast Asian origin) + Tamil vr, root.]
This confirms the Chambers etymology but explains it better. There is
no conflict regarding the 'Malayalam' of Chambers. Malayalam (BTW a
palindrome!) being the youngest Dravidian language seperated from
Tamil only in the ninth century.
Regards,
T. S. Kalsi
UVR
>
> > "karpoora[ka]m" is the Sanskrit word for camphor. Clearly, it could
> > be the source of 'kafoor'. albattah, maiN aise kisi bhi aise Sanskrit
> > lafz se aashnaa nahiiN hooN jiske talaffuz (even in a highly corrupted
> > form) 'mushk' yaa 'zanjabeel' se milte haiN. "kastuuri" is the Sanskrit
> > word for musk (sometimes aka mR.gakastuuri) and "aardraka[m]" is adrak
> > (ginger) [see what I mean by 'corrupted form'?].
>
> muhtarim UVR saahib:
>
> sab se pehle to ba sad ma'azarat arz karooN gaa k ye UVR kyaa huwaa?
> aisee bhee kyaa parda daaree? lagtaa hai aap ne ALUP meN kisee saahib
> yaa saahiba se udhaar liyaa huwaa hai :)) az raah e karam apnaa naam
> to bataa deejiye taake muKhaatib karne meN aasaanee ho!
Zafar sahib, "yeh UVR" kuchh aur nahiN meraa apnaa, waaldain kaa diyaa
huaa, naam hai. is abbreviation ke expansion meiN 22 Roman harf lagte
haiN, aur maiN Thaihraa nihaayat hi lethargic qism kaa aadmi :-) waise
agar aap chaaheN to woh naam bhi ist'emaal kar sakte haiN jo Raj Kumar
sahib, Sarwar sahib aur deegar ALUPers karte haiN -- "Ravindra". lekin
yeh bhi yaad rahe keh is "UVR" ko pehle 'Qais' sahib aur phir 'Abid'
sahib apne apne naGhmaat-e-ALUP meiN shaamil kar chuke haiN, so you're
kind-of stuck with it :-))
> aap kee inaa'yat kaa shukriya. maiN aap ke sawaaloN ke jawaabaat dene
> kee koshish kartaa hooN:
>
> 1.
> mushk: ye lafz Sanskrit kaa hee hai, maiN Marriam Webster Dictionary
> (www.m-w.com) se musk kee etymology "copy/paste" kar rahaa hooN:
>
> "Middle English muske, from Middle French musc, from Late Latin
> muscus, from Late Greek moschos, from (assumed) Middle Persian musk-,
> from Sanskrit muska testicle, from diminutive of mus mouse; akin to
> Old English mus mouse."
aji huzoor, maiN 'musk' ke peeche bhaag rahaa tha, aur yeh kahaaN aap
ne physiology ki baat chheR di :-)) Khair, ab is lafz ki etymology
saaf ho gayi hai, to sunte chaliye keh us Sanskrit lafz ke sahiih
talaffuz "muShka" haiN, aur Ghaur kareN keh yeh "Sh" hai, "sh" nahiN.
yeh sound sirf Sanskrit-jaati ki zubaanoN meiN hai, Arabi/Farsi/Urdu
yaa English/French, Chinese/Japanese waGhairah meiN nahiN miltaa. ise
hamaare `haaN "baRaa Sha" yaa "peT phaTaa (kaTaa) Sha" bhi kahte haiN.
> 2.
> zanjabeel:
>
> "...Middle English, from Old English gingifer, from Medieval Latin
> gingiber, alteration of Latin zingiber, from Greek zingiberi,
> ultimately from Pali singivEra."
>
> ye lafz yahaaN Pali kaa bataayaa gayaa hai. aap se darKhaast hai k is
> par raushanee DaaleN k ye Sanskrit meN kis shakl meN iste'maal hotaa
> hai. ye to zaahir hai "singiveer" se Arabi meN "zanjabeel" ban gayaa
> he.
janaab-e-Kalsi ki post se saaf zaahir hai keh yeh lafz Sanskrit kaa
nahiN hai, balkeh Pali meiN Sanskrit+Tamil (sRNga + vEr) se aayaa hai.
I only know a bit of Sanskrit and Tamil, but "vEr" Sanskrit kaa lafz
nahiN hai; it is found only in the South Indian languages. mujhe Pali
ke baare meiN sirf itnaa hi 'ilm hai keh yeh bauddhik (Buddhis)
inscriptions meiN milti hai aur is meiN Sanskrit ke bahut se lafz
"corrupted (simplified?) form" meiN shaamil haiN. mas`lan dhamma
(dharma), kamma (karma), kodha (krodha - anger), wG.
> > aap ne Qur`aan ke 3 alfaaz kaa zikr kiyaa hai to lijiye ek dilchasp
> > "fact" yeh bhi suniye keh Goswani Tulsidas rachit ShriRaamCharitMaanas
> > ke "baal kaaND" (chapter 1) meiN (at least) 3 Arabi ke alfaaz haiN!
> > kahiye, hai na maze ki baat!
> >
> is piece of information ke liye bhee bahut shukriya. waise mujhe
> ma'aloom naheeN k kitaab e mazkoora kis daur se ta'aluq rakhtee hai.
Goswami Tulsidas is said to have lived from the end of the 15th century
to the beginning of the 17th century (1492?-1603?). yeh Hindi meiN
nahiN, Awadhi meiN hai (spoken in and around Awadh [=Ayodhya], Uttar
Pradesh, India). aap ne poochhaa to nahiN, lekin maiN bataaye deta
hooN keh woh 3 lafz kaun se haiN: Ghanii, Ghareeb, moHtaaj :-) Of
course, by this time, the Mughal were already in Delhi.
> aap ne aik inkishaaf kiyaa hai to aik mere taraf se bhee sun lijiye:
> aik tehqeeq ke mutaabiq Mahaa Bhaarat meN Yudushtr jee (please correct
> the transliteration) ne Arabi meN taqreer kee thee!!!
"yudhiShThira". yeh lafz bhi usi "baRe Sha" se hai, aur is ke ma'ani
haiN, "jo yuddh (jang) meiN sthir (na Talne waalaa) ho".
aap ne is lafz kaa zikr kiyaa to Allama ka darj-e-zail band yaad aa
gayaa ... dekhiye dimaaGh Khar bhi hai aur "Arabi ghoRaa" bhi :-) LOL ...
Tal na sakte the agar jang meiN aR jaate the
paaoN sheroN ke bhi maidaaN se ukhaR jaate the
tujh se sarkash huaa koi to bigaR jaate the
teGh kyaa cheez hai, ham tOp se laR jaate the
ek aur dilchasp baat bataaoN? Sanskrit meiN gadhe ko "khar" bhi
kahte haiN ... :))
-UVR.
Zafar
ye huwee naa baat! naam bataane kaa shukriya. waise is Khaak-saar ke
naam meN bhee aap se aik hee harf kam hai (21 Roman letters). lekin
maiN ne kabhee ZISB naheeN likhaa, balke faqat pehle hisse par hee
iktifaa kiyaa.
> yeh bhi yaad rahe keh is "UVR" ko pehle 'Qais' sahib aur phir 'Abid'
> sahib apne apne naGhmaat-e-ALUP meiN shaamil kar chuke haiN, so you're
> kind-of stuck with it :-))>
Khair ham to ise koee "burhaan e qaat'e" maan-ne ke liye tayyaar
naheeN haiN kyoN k yaad rahe k "...aar" duniyaa kaa aasaan tareen
qaafiya hai (remember the great Lata/Rafi duet, "duniyaa meN naheeN
ko'ee yaar, wafaa-daar"?)
> Goswami Tulsidas is said to have lived from the end of the 15th century
> to the beginning of the 17th century (1492?-1603?).
are saahib, ham to samajhe the k aap kisee qabl maseeh kee kitaab kaa
zikr kar rahe haiN. agar 16weeN sadee kee kisee kitaab meN Arabi ke
teen lafz aaye haiN to wo ko'ee hairat kee baat naheeN hai. maiN pehle
hee arz kar chukaa hooN k "Raaj Raasaa" meN 10% alfaaz Arabi/Farsi ke
haiN jo 12weeN sadee meN likhee ga'ee thee. aap jis daur kaa zikr kar
rahe haiN us waqt to Urdu poore Hindustaan meN bolee aur samajhee
jaane lagee thee. Tulsidaas se Kabir Daas pehle guzre haiN aur un ke
haaN alfaaz to kyaa poore ke poore Farsi muhaaware tarjuma ki'e huwe
milte haiN.
Sincerely,
Zafar