kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
Raj Kumar
yaaraan-e-mehfil:
abhi haal hi meiN janaab-e-Naseer saahib ne kuchh "yateem" huroof ka
zikr kiyaa hai, jin meiN harf "Re" Khusoosi imtiyaaz rakhtaa hai. aaN-
janaab ka yeh farmaan yaqeenan bar-haq hai k Urdu shaa'irii meiN aise
alfaaz kam kam hi barte jaate haiN jin meiN harf "Re" maujood ho ---
aur agar barte bhi jaate haiN to unheN kisi Ghazal yaa nazm meiN ko'ii
numaayaaN maqaam naheeN diyaa jaata. Naseer saahib ke is mushaahide ke
pesh-e-nazar, Khaaksaar apni aek muKhtasar si Ghazal pesh kar rahaa
hai jis meiN harf "Re" ko sirf bartaa hi naheeN gayaa bal-k ise
achchhi-Khaassi ahamiyat bhi di gayee hai.
to, leejiye, Ghazal haazir-e-Khidmat hai ------------- gar qubool
uftad!
--------------------
matl'a arz hai:
1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
2. yeh baad-e-bahaarii thii yaa baad-e-KhizaaN, jis ne
shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
4. aakaash pe hooreN haiN --- hoN gii, hameN kyaa lenaa?
ham ko to yeh dhartii hii "Indar ka akhaaRaa" hai!
5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
aur ab maqt'a arz hai:
7. yeh aihl-e-Khirad aaKhir kyooN Qais pe haNste haiN?
is shaKhs ne daaman ko --- kyaa "jaan ke" phaaRaa hai???
hasb-e-ma'amool, aap sabhii dostoN ke ta'assuraat ka intezaar rahe ga!
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
tanhaa
> yaaraan-e-mehfil:
>
> abhi haal hi meiN janaab-e-Naseer saahib ne kuchh "yateem" huroof ka
> zikr kiyaa hai, jin meiN harf "Re" Khusoosi imtiyaaz rakhtaa hai. aaN-
> janaab ka yeh farmaan yaqeenan bar-haq hai k Urdu shaa'irii meiN aise
> alfaaz kam kam hi barte jaate haiN jin meiN harf "Re" maujood ho ---
> aur agar barte bhi jaate haiN to unheN kisi Ghazal yaa nazm meiN ko'ii
> numaayaaN maqaam naheeN diyaa jaata. Naseer saahib ke is mushaahide ke
> pesh-e-nazar, Khaaksaar apni aek muKhtasar si Ghazal pesh kar rahaa
> hai jis meiN harf "Re" ko sirf bartaa hi naheeN gayaa bal-k ise
> achchhi-Khaassi ahamiyat bhi di gayee hai.
>
> to, leejiye, Ghazal haazir-e-Khidmat hai ------------- gar qubool
> uftad!
>
> --------------------
>
waah waah Raj sahib!! kya misaal di hai aapne harf-e-Re ke istemaal
ki. Ghazal har suurat se laajavaab hai, mujhe Khaas-taur se kuchh
ash'ar behad pasand aaye haiN. yuuN to maiN sirf daad dene ke liye
haazir hua tha, magar neeche ek do baateiN bhi ki haiN, zara ek nazar
un par bhi Daal lijiye.
> matl'a arz hai:
>
> 1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
> aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
>
waah waah! doosra misra bahut hi khoob hai!!
> 2. yeh baad-e-bahaarii thii yaa baad-e-KhizaaN, jis ne
> shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
>
bahut khoob. ab kaun sochega "lataaRaa" as a qaafiya! very nice
sh'er indeed.
> 3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
> us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
>
RK sahib I have no clue what "peNde" is. please explain... though I
would say based on the context it probably means "roots".
> 4. aakaash pe hooreN haiN --- hoN gii, hameN kyaa lenaa?
> ham ko to yeh dhartii hii "Indar ka akhaaRaa" hai!
>
beautiful!! "Indar ka akhaaRaa" --- amazing. waah !
> 5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
> ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
>
bahut khoob yet again! To note I guess is that most of these words
are all hindi words. Of course as the letter "Re" is not present in
Farsi... but you have done a great job using these words as qavaafi.
> 6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
> yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
wow!!!!!!!!! bahut hi khoob RK sahib, bahut hi khoob. this is
definitely the one couplet that stands out in this whole Ghazal. ise
kahte haiN haasil-e-Ghazal.
> aur ab maqt'a arz hai:
>
> 7. yeh aihl-e-Khirad aaKhir kyooN Qais pe haNste haiN?
> is shaKhs ne daaman ko --- kyaa "jaan ke" phaaRaa hai???
>
waah!! maqta hamesha ki tarah aap ki Ghazal ki shaan hai. though I
have already given the "haasil-e-Ghazal" title to another sh'er, this
is a beautiful sh'er.
> hasb-e-ma'amool, aap sabhii dostoN ke ta'assuraat ka intezaar rahe ga!
>
to ye the mere ta'assuraat, bahut shukriya is Ghazal ko yahaaN pesh
karne ka.
Regards,
Amit Malhotra
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
sat pal
dear brother
thanks gor good ghazal.
regards
satpal
Vijay
Raj sahib,
aap kii ghazal paRhi, hasb-e-ma'amuul boaht mazaa aaya. yeh 'R' ka
harf hai to yatiim sa hii lekin aap ne to jasie ise apna hii bana liia
hai. kyaa kyaa misaaleN pesh kii haiN, kyaa kehne.!!
'inder kaa aKhaaRa' aur 'murda mira gaaRa' kii trakiib to aap ne Khoob
ghaRii hai, vaah vaah. 'murda miraa gaaRa' ne to ghalib ke '....kaabe
meN gaaRo barahaman ko' kii yaad dila dii.
sabhii asha'ar yakta haiN lekin mujhe maqta sab se ziaadah acchha
laga.
Regards,
Vijay Kumar
Raj Kumar
> On Oct 6, 4:03 pm, Raj Kumar <rajkumarq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > yaaraan-e-mehfil:
>
> > abhi haal hi meiN janaab-e-Naseer saahib ne kuchh "yateem" huroof ka
> > zikr kiyaa hai, jin meiN harf "Re" Khusoosi imtiyaaz rakhtaa hai. aaN-
> > janaab ka yeh farmaan yaqeenan bar-haq hai k Urdu shaa'irii meiN aise
> > alfaaz kam kam hi barte jaate haiN jin meiN harf "Re" maujood ho ---
> > aur agar barte bhi jaate haiN to unheN kisi Ghazal yaa nazm meiN ko'ii
> > numaayaaN maqaam naheeN diyaa jaata. Naseer saahib ke is mushaahide ke
> > pesh-e-nazar, Khaaksaar apni aek muKhtasar si Ghazal pesh kar rahaa
> > hai jis meiN harf "Re" ko sirf bartaa hi naheeN gayaa bal-k ise
> > achchhi-Khaassi ahamiyat bhi di gayee hai.
>
> > to, leejiye, Ghazal haazir-e-Khidmat hai ------------- gar qubool
> > uftad!
>
> > --------------------
>
> waah waah Raj sahib!! kya misaal di hai aapne harf-e-Re ke istemaal
> ki. Ghazal har suurat se laajavaab hai, mujhe Khaas-taur se kuchh
> ash'ar behad pasand aaye haiN. yuuN to maiN sirf daad dene ke liye
> haazir hua tha, magar neeche ek do baateiN bhi ki haiN, zara ek nazar
> un par bhi Daal lijiye.
navaazish ke liye mamnoon hooN, Amit saahib.
mujhe yeh jaan kar be-intehaa Khushi ho rahi hai k aap ko meri is
Ghazal ka "taana-baana" pasaNd aayaa! :)
magar afsos k janaab-e-Naseer saahib --- jin ke iimaa par maiN ne yeh
Ghazal 'post' thi --- ne meri is kaavish par ghaas tak naheeN
Daalii! :( :( :(
> > matl'a arz hai:
>
> > 1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
> > aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
>
> waah waah! doosra misra bahut hi khoob hai!!
shukriya, huzoor!
> > 2. yeh baad-e-bahaarii thii yaa baad-e-KhizaaN, jis ne
> > shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
>
> bahut khoob. ab kaun sochega "lataaRaa" as a qaafiya! Very nice
> sh'er indeed.
she'r ki pasaNdeedagi ke liye sar-ba-sijda hooN, Amit miyaaN. rahi
baat "phooloN ko lataaRne" ki SOCH kii --- to arz hai k
"H A M E E E E E E N socheN ge voh nukte jinheN ko'ii na soche
ga"!!! ;) :)
> > 3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
> > us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
>
> RK sahib I have no clue what "peNde" is. please explain... though I
> would say based on the context it probably means "roots".
Of course, "peNda" means the "bottom" --- of a vessel or of anything
else. I here ventured to employ this term to strike at the very
"roots" of the tree in question!
>
> > 4. aakaash pe hooreN haiN --- hoN gii, hameN kyaa lenaa?
> > ham ko to yeh dhartii hii "Indar ka akhaaRaa" hai!
>
> beautiful!! "Indar ka akhaaRaa" --- amazing. waah !
navaazish, janaab!
> > 5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
> > ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
>
> bahut khoob yet again! To note, I guess that most of these words
> are all hindi words. Of course as the letter "Re" is not present in
> Farsi... but you have done a great job using these words as qavaafi.
Of course, all the qaafiyas in this Ghazal --- because of the "akkhaR
letter Re" --- are Hindi words. But, pleeeeeeeease, speak softly lest
Naseer saahib happens to hear this!
You know, if he comes to get a feel of our conversation, he'll come
swinging to say ------------ whatever he'll happen to say!!! ;) :)
> > 6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
> > yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
> wow!!!!!!!!! bahut hi khoob RK sahib, bahut hi khoob. this is
> definitely the one couplet that stands out in this whole Ghazal. ise
> kahte haiN haasil-e-Ghazal.
chaliye, agar ------------- "aap kehte haiN to phir Theek hi kehte hoN
ge"! ;)
B/W, on further revision, I have changed "tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii" to
"taareeki hi taareekii" ----- I hope, you approve of this change!
> > aur ab maqt'a arz hai:
>
> > 7. yeh aihl-e-Khirad aaKhir kyooN Qais pe haNste haiN?
> > is shaKhs ne daaman ko --- kyaa "jaan ke" phaaRaa hai???
>
> waah!! maqta hamesha ki tarah aap ki Ghazal ki shaan hai, though I
> have already given the "haasil-e-Ghazal" title to another sh'er, this
> is a beautiful sh'er.
maiN aap ki baat ba-Khoobi samajhtaa hooN, Amit saahib, --- albatta,
aisa bhi to ho sakta hai k ham, aek Ghazal meiN sirf aek hi she'r ko
"haasil-e-Ghazal" kehne ki bajaaye, us Ghazal ke mut'addid ash'aar ko
"havaasil-e-Ghazal" keh deN! Right or Wrong? ;)
> > hasb-e-ma'amool, aap sabhii dostoN ke ta'assuraat ka intezaar rahe ga!
>
> to ye the mere ta'assuraat, bahut shukriya is Ghazal ko yahaaN pesh
> karne ka.
janaab, maiN Khaaksaar aap ke nazar-navaaz ta'assuraat ke liye aap ka
dil-o-jaan se mutashakkir hooN aur ummeed rakhta hooN k hamaara yeh
baa_hami silsila-e-rafaaqat taaaaaaaaa-der qaa'im rahe ga!
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Naseer
"Re" ke zaa'iqe meN rachii huii Ghazal pesh karne kaa bahut bahut
shukriyah.. awr haaN, aap kii shikaayat thoRii qabl-az-vaqt hai! vuh
is liye kih jald yaa ba-der aap ke daultat-KHaane meN mujhe Haazirii
ke liye aanaa hii thaa magar, aap ne, jii haaN haaN aap ne mujhe ek
duusare ruKH meN ghasiiT liyaa. nah sirf ghasiiT
liyaa magar ghasiiTne ke ba'd yih bhii puuchhne par majbuur kar diyaa
kih "achchhaa bhaii, ab sunaao?":):)
to maiN aap ke haaN KHud ko jhaaR-poNchh kar hii aa saktaa thaa. kisii
ke ghar jaane ke bhii to kuchh aadaab hote haiN!!
Vijay Sahib awr Amit Sahib ne pahle hii aap kii Ghazal kii be-intihaa
sitaaish kii hai. yih donoN Hazaraat shi'r-shinaas haiN, shaa'irii kii
bhuul-bhulaiyyaaN in ke liye baaeN haath kaa khel hai. maiN to, jaisaa
kih, Zafar Sahib ne ek aadh
baar "sifaaratii" tariiqe se ishaarah kiyaa hai, shi'r-naa-shinaas
huuN lekin, ek anjaan awr naa-daan shaKHs bhii to kah saktaa hai kih
aam miiThaa hai...kyoN miiThaa hai, yih us kii balaa jaane!!:)
mujh "anjaan-o-naa-daan" ke nazdiik "ujaaRaa" jaise manuus alfaaz kaii
baar ziyaadah mauzuuN awr mu'assar hote haiN awr is qism kii baat maiN
pahle bhii chheR chukaa huuN. KHvaah aap log khusar phusar kar ke
kaheN yaa 'ilaaniyah taur pih, Re Urdu kaa "roz-i-azal" se Harf hai
awr is Harf se bane hue alfaaz bhii Urdu (az raah-i-KhaRii Bolii) ke
haiN. aap "ranj" ko bhii apnii milkiyyat samajhte haiN awr "Re-
daar"lafzoN ko bhii! to Urdu vaaloN ke paas kyaa bachaa, gadhe kaa
sar?:) Raj Kumar Sahib, Re (awr maiN ho saktaa hai Ghalat huuN)
Faarsii 'Arabii kii yaqiin-an aavaaz nahiiN lekin SaNskrit kii bhii
nahiiN!!!
1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
baaGh to bahut hii 'aam ho gayaa hai. aap kii "kisht-i-tamannaa" ke
baare meN kyaa raae hai?
2. yeh baad-e-bahaarii thii yaa baad-e-KhizaaN, jis ne
shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
baad-i-bahaarii awr baad-i-KHizaaN donoN mere zihn meN itnii "beKH-
kan" nahiiN lagtiiN jitnii kih ek "Ghazab-naak" aaNdhii?
jaNjhoRne kii taaqat in "baadoN" meN kahaaN?
3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
kyaa aap shajar kii jagah "peR" kaa paivand lagaa sakte haiN (ek hii
peR baaqii?)? mere KHayaal meN yih sone par suhaage kaa kaam de gaa.
bahut KHuub-suurat shi'r hai. daad qubuul kiijiye.
4. aakaash pe hooreN haiN --- hoN gii, hameN kyaa lenaa?
ham ko to yeh dhartii hii "Indar ka akhaaRaa" hai!
bahut KHuub. aasmaan meN to HuureN haiN hii, lekin aakaash/Indar kaa
akhaaRaa bahut munaasib milaap hai.
5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
"pahaaRaa paRhnaa" se maiN "times-table" raTne ke ma'nii letaa huuN.
kyaa is ko "sabaq! ke ma'nii meN bhii liyaa jaa saktaa hai?
6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
gaaRnaa nah sirf daabne ke ma'nii detaa hai bal-kih "khaRaa karne" ke
bhii. lihaazah bahut bahut achchhaa shi'r hai.ek baar phir daad qubuul
kiijiye, vaah! aap "taariikii hii taariikii" ke baare meN soch rahe
haiN. "andheraa hii andheraa"???
yaqiin-an aap ke dimaaGh meN awr bhii aise kaii alfaaz aae hoN ge.
mere kund-zihn meN is vaqt "jaaRaa" "taaRaa" "paaRaa" (a kind of
dear)"kaaRhaa" ( double meaning!), "gaaRhaa" etc aa rahe haiN.
ek Ghair-ma'mullii Ghazal pesh karne kaa bahut bahut shukriyah.
aap ne lafz "akkhaR" kaa zikr kiyaa hai. isii naam kaa ek Pakistani
Drama hai. agar aap ko mil sake to zaruur dekhiye gaa.awr phir mujhe
apnii du'aaoN meN yaad kiijiye gaa.
Khair-Khvaah,
Naseer
UVR
>
>
> Re (awr maiN ho saktaa hai Ghalat huuN)
> Faarsii 'Arabii kii yaqiin-an aavaaz nahiiN lekin SaNskrit kii bhii
> nahiiN!!!
There exist streams of linguistic thought whose position runs
contrary to the latter half of your assertion (vis a vis Sanskrit).
-UVR.
Naseer
UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
Sanskrit grammar books (and a dictionary) in my possession do not
indicate that R/Rh (retroflex flaps..as in pahaR and paRh) exist in
Classical Persian. I believe same is the case for Vedic Sanskrit.
Here is a link which confirms this. See second of "Additional Notes",
near the bottom.
Naseer
Naseer
>
> Naseer
UVR Sahib, aadaab, once again.
I suppose you have found the deliberate mistake:) I meant to write
Classical Sanskrit.
Naseer
Vijay
It is called a Freudian slip Naseer sahib, which means you say one
thing when you mean a mother:-)
Vijay
Naseer
Indeed Vijay Sahib, indeed! You are the doctor!
Naseer
UVR
LOL!!!!!!!!!! Superb.
-UVR.
UVR
>
> Naseer
There is evidence to suggest that the people who spoke (classical)
Sanskrit were actively using the retroflex L. There is also strong
evidence to suggest that the retroflex flaps were also used by the
same peoples. I believe it would be folly to suggest that Hindi (or
Urdu) are derived from Sanskrit without any influence of the many
Prakrits that were actively in use at the time classical (or even
middle)
Sanskrit was a living language. In fact, it is commonly believed that
Sanskrit was almost exclusively used for some official, religious
and literary purposes, while the Prakrit(s) were the language of
the masses.
I think the history of our language is not as cut and dry as some
western "scholars" and historians would have us believe.
-UVR.
Naseer
> There is evidence to suggest that the people who spoke (classical)
> Sanskrit were actively using the retroflex L. There is also strong
> evidence to suggest that the retroflex flaps were also used by the
> same peoples. I believe it would be folly to suggest that Hindi (or
> Urdu) are derived from Sanskrit without any influence of the many
> Prakrits that were actively in use at the time classical (or even
> middle)
> Sanskrit was a living language. In fact, it is commonly believed that
> Sanskrit was almost exclusively used for some official, religious
> and literary purposes, while the Prakrit(s) were the language of
> the masses.
janaab-i-UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
I was aware of the retroflex L (which still exists in some dilects of
Punjabi, for example). Can you provide me with some references for the
existence of the retroflex flaps in Sanskrit?
> I think the history of our language is not as cut and dry as some
> western "scholars" and historians would have us believe.
Which language? I agree, nothing is ever black and white.
Naseer
UVR
> On Oct 10, 6:09 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is evidence to suggest that the people who spoke (classical)
> > Sanskrit were actively using the retroflex L. There is also strong
> > evidence to suggest that the retroflex flaps were also used by the
> > same peoples. I believe it would be folly to suggest that Hindi (or
> > Urdu) are derived from Sanskrit without any influence of the many
> > Prakrits that were actively in use at the time classical (or even
> > middle)
> > Sanskrit was a living language. In fact, it is commonly believed that
> > Sanskrit was almost exclusively used for some official, religious
> > and literary purposes, while the Prakrit(s) were the language of
> > the masses.
>
> janaab-i-UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> I was aware of the retroflex L (which still exists in some dilects of
> Punjabi, for example). Can you provide me with some references for the
> existence of the retroflex flaps in Sanskrit?
Not in Sanskrit. But in the language(s) spoken by the same peoples.
> > I think the history of our language is not as cut and dry as some
> > western "scholars" and historians would have us believe.
>
> Which language? I agree, nothing is ever black and white.
>
>
Hindi. Or Urdu. Or Khari Boli. Saying that these were derived
"from Sanskrit" is, in my opinion, like saying humans were
derived "from chimpanzees."
-UVR.
tanhaa
Sorry to interject here. I'm trying to understand why all threads
eventually end up in discussions of what's Hindi and what's Urdu,
what's Khari Boli, is it all Hindustani?
All of you who are participating in these discussions are highly
learned, highly educated and highly informed on these matters, and no
doubt that a reader such as myself who is oblivious to most of these
discussions ends up learning quite a few things. But please stop
hijacking threads which are not meant for such discussions and make
new threads (my apologies if this sounds rude to some of you). The
participants in these discussions completely ignore the OP. Sure we
are on a public forum, sure discussions simply go from one place to
another, but ignoring the OP and his/her original post and the
intentions of his/her original post can not be polite public
discussion mannerism, can it? If i'm out place in saying this, please
do correct me. Though I believe that let's leave the discussion on RK
sahib's Ghazal in this thread and take all other discussions about
Sanskrit and origins of Urdu in another thread. (I'm sure some of you
might say, well the Ghazal is directly related to the discussions
because of the usage of words in it, "Re" being prominent, etc.... ).
In any case, it's Just my casual observation.
Regards,
Amit Malhotra
tanhaa
> On Oct 8, 10:56 am, tanhaa <sahir.fana...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 6, 4:03 pm, Raj Kumar <rajkumarq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "H A M E E E E E E N socheN ge voh nukte jinheN ko'ii na soche
> ga"!!! ;) :)
>
:-)
> > > 6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
> > > yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
> > wow!!!!!!!!! bahut hi khoob RK sahib, bahut hi khoob. this is
> > definitely the one couplet that stands out in this whole Ghazal. ise
> > kahte haiN haasil-e-Ghazal.
>
> chaliye, agar ------------- "aap kehte haiN to phir Theek hi kehte hoN
> ge"! ;)
>
> B/W, on further revision, I have changed "tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii" to
> "taareeki hi taareekii" ----- I hope, you approve of this change!
>
Coming back to your Ghazal Raj Sahib, I'm wondering why the change
from 'tanhaai hi tanhaaii' to 'taareeki hi taareekii'??
I have been humming this couplet and the matla of your Ghazal for the
past few days since I have read it and I think 'tanhaai hi tanhaaii'
has grown on me. I like the implications of this, of course taareeki'
could make sense in a way that k jahaaN murdaa gaaRaa hai, vahaaN
andhera to hoga hi, but 'tanhaai' leaves a different sort of
implications which goes with "KAHAAN" laa kar. Just trying to
understand your mindset as to why the change, what implications it has
on the couplet and does it make it better? Incidently, my approving
of the change won't have any thing to do with whether you make the
change or not, though personaly I like the original form of your
couplet a lot more. :-)
Regards,
Amit Malhotra
UVR
Point (and no offense) taken. There shall be no more from me
on this thread and topic on ALUP.
-UVR.
Naseer
> Not in Sanskrit. But in the language(s) spoken by the same peoples.
UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
I know you have said that you won't be adding anything to this
discussion. So, you are at a disadvantage. But UVR Sahib, I originally
said that Sanskrit does not have a Re. You said it did (or implied
such an assertion). Now, without anything to back your assertion, are
we not back to square one? There are suggestions that R etc has come
from the Dravidian languages. Don't tell me that now I am suggesting
that we are off-springs of baboons:)
> Hindi. Or Urdu. Or Khari Boli. Saying that these were derived
> "from Sanskrit" is, in my opinion, like saying humans were
> derived "from chimpanzees."
In this case you meant to write "...our languages"? Who knows? May be
we are derived from chimpanzees:) On a more serious note, I don't
think that the implication was that Sanskrit gave birth directly to
these languages. However, as an example of the oldest Indo-European
language in India, it is fair to assume that the current Indo-European
languages being spoken there must have some link with it.
Amit Sahib, aadaab.
Point taken and no offence taken. However, I do think that the
discussion was relevent, as we are discussing the letter "Re".
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
Mabaahisa to abhi abhi shuroo' huwa hai !
Amit Saheb ka kehna sar~aaNkhoN par. Lekin aap aur Shri UVR
ek nayee laRi bhi to shuroo' kar sakte haiN.
Afzal
UVR
I am starting a new thread for this discussion as suggested by
Afzal saahib. I agree with Amit saahib that it is not correct to
"pollute the waters" of Raj Kumar saahib's Ghazal with this
topic (however germane it may appear, on the face of it, to
RK saahib's Ghazal).
-UVR.
tanhaa
> Naseer saahib,
>
> I am starting a new thread for this discussion as suggested by
> Afzal saahib. I agree with Amit saahib that it is not correct to
> "pollute the waters" of Raj Kumar saahib's Ghazal with this
> topic (however germane it may appear, on the face of it, to
> RK saahib's Ghazal).
>
> -UVR.
Thank you for making a new thread UVR, really appreciated. I was
really interested in the discussion, I assure you, and when I read
your reply saying : "There shall be no more from me on this thread
and topic on ALUP". I said to myself - oops! :-)
Now on the topic. I used to have this idea that Urdu and Hindi are
two distinct languages, but discussions on ALUP have made me change my
opinion. I have to say that Hindi and Urdu are one language only, and
as wikipedia so elegantly put it, two standardized versions of
Hindustani. But I'll leave the discussion to all you learned folks
out there.
Regards,
Amit Malhotra
Raj Kumar
yaaraan-e-mehfil:
I have been watching the unexpected "growth" of this thread with
amazement --- and sometimes with amusement --- but have hesitated to
interject in the ongoing discussion for the same fear that has so
aptly been expressed by Amit saahib. Nevertheless, I can't restrain
myself from saying a few things in a lighter vein!
1. is vaartaalaap ne mujhe aek dilchasp baat ki yaad dilaa'ii hai, jo
k Zafar saahib ne "Saihraa Saihraa" par apnaa aalimaana tabsira karte
huye kahi thi ---------- mausoof ka farmaan hai:
[October 2001 meN pehlii baar jab maiN ne internet par ALUP naamii
urdu
shaairii ke forum par Raj Kumar saahib kii shaairii aur un kii
doosrii tehriireN paRhiiN to un ka jo tassavur mere zehn par
ubhra voh aik aise nau-jawaan kaa thaa jo haNsii haNsii meN koii
gehrii baat keh detaa hai aur phir kone meN khaRaa ho kar tamaasha
dekhta rehta hai].
How true, Zafar saahib, --- especially on this occasion! :)
2. Naseer saahib ki aek 'slip' par, Vijay Kumar saahib ne farmaaya
hai:
[It is called a Freudian slip Naseer sahib, which means you say one
thing when you mean a mother]. :-)
Vijay saahib ki is baat par Naseer saahib farmaate haiN:
[Indeed, Vijay Sahib, indeed! You are the doctor!]
aur UVR saahib ka irshaad hai:
[LOL!!!!!!!!!! Superb].
goyaa, in dono mubassireen-e-adab ne voh 'slip' naheeN taaRii jo Khud
Vijay saahib se sarzad hu'i hai, namely
a mother --- instead of --- another! WOW!!!
aur yeh voh log haiN jo mujh door-beeN v Khurd-beeN ko "sattara-
bahattara" kehte haiN! ;)
In any case, I wonder what Vijay Kumar saahib's slip should be called.
Certainly, not Freudian ---
may be, Aryan or Dravidian!
3. Amit saahib ki perm-poorvak guzaarish ka ehteraam karte huye, UVR
saahib ne farmaaya hai:
[Point (and no offense) taken. There shall be no more from me
on this thread and topic on ALUP.]
aaN-janaab ke is farmaan par Khaaksaar to hairat-zada ho kar reh gayaa
k, haaliya baihs-mubaahise se dast-bardaar hote huye kyaa voh meri is
bholi bhaali Ghazal ko bhi tilaaq de deN ge? :(
huzoor, aap ki is baat par to (reh reh ke) yihi misra lab pe aata hai:
aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai???
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Naseer
janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
I was not going to say anything on this matter ( although I had n't
said so in so many words) but, as you have raised a couple of points,
it is only good manners that you should be accorded a reply.
> I have been watching the unexpected "growth" of this thread with
> amazement --- and sometimes with amusement --- but have hesitated to
> interject in the ongoing discussion for the same fear that has so
> aptly been expressed by Amit saahib. Nevertheless, I can't restrain
> myself from saying a few things in a lighter vein!
There will many many people who disagree with Amit Sahib's comment.
But this agreement will not be expressed here.
> How true, Zafar saahib, --- especially on this occasion! :)
>
> 2. Naseer saahib ki aek 'slip' par, Vijay Kumar saahib ne farmaaya
> hai:
>
> [It is called a Freudian slip Naseer sahib, which means you say one
> thing when you mean a mother]. :-)
>
> Vijay saahib ki is baat par Naseer saahib farmaate haiN:
>
> [Indeed, Vijay Sahib, indeed! You are the doctor!]
>
> aur UVR saahib ka irshaad hai:
>
> [LOL!!!!!!!!!! Superb].
>
> goyaa, in dono mubassireen-e-adab ne voh 'slip' naheeN taaRii jo Khud
> Vijay saahib se sarzad hu'i hai, namely
>
> a mother --- instead of --- another! WOW!!!
>
> aur yeh voh log haiN jo mujh door-beeN v Khurd-beeN ko "sattara-
> bahattara" kehte haiN! ;)
>
> In any case, I wonder what Vijay Kumar saahib's slip should be called.
> Certainly, not Freudian ---
> may be, Aryan or Dravidian!
Whatever kind of slip it may have been, I certainly had the word
Classical Sanskrit in mind. On top of that I did notice Vijay Kumar's
slip straight away and I believe so did UVR Sahib. In my reply, my
"mistake" perhaps was that I did not seperate Vijay Sahib's immortal
words:)
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
sat pal
very beautiful ghazal what i want to what is this pende se ukhaara
hai, pende means......
my regards to Naseer sahib.
Thanks
sat pal
Naseer
janaab-i-Amit Malhotra Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> Now on the topic. I used to have this idea that Urdu and Hindi are
> two distinct languages, but discussions on ALUP have made me change my
> opinion. I have to say that Hindi and Urdu are one language only, and
> as wikipedia so elegantly put it, two standardized versions of
> Hindustani. But I'll leave the discussion to all you learned folks
> out there.
Now, you are hijacking this section of the thread!!!:):)
1) We were talking about the non-existence (or otherwise) of the R/Rh
sounds in Classical Sanskrit. (If You want further information on your
assertion, please visit a thread on Ralph Russell where UVR Sahib has
provided a link about Hindi/Urdu. Also read the thread entitled, "
Urdu ko Hindi meN paRho" or something like it. If you are still not
satisfied, follow the debate in "mujhko ik baar to seene se lagaa lo
jaanaaN". You know the one I mean?:)
2) You should be cursing UVR Sahib only for it was he who interjected
into my post to Raj Kumar Sahib (to which the latter has not even had
a chance to get a word in edgeways):) :)
kaun kahtaa hai kih is maHfil meN raunaq nahiiN hai?
ALUP awr ALUP-ii zindah baad!!
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Kali Hawa
> kaun kahtaa hai kih is maHfil meN raunaq nahiiN hai?
>
> ALUP awr ALUP-ii zindah baad!!
>
> KHair-Khvaah,
>
> Naseer
Strictly on the basis on instinct I think sounds like R or RH etc
evolved much later. ANgrej to aaj bhi ye sounds nahi nikaal paate. Aik
kissa bayaaN karta hun,
aik aNgerj KhaRi Boli(Tanhaa Sahib! I have solved the problem) seekhna
chaahtaa thaa to use aik Hindustaani ne kahaa, ye to bohat aasaan hai.
maslan agar aap ko kahna hai
"darwaazaa baNd karo" to aap angreji meN kahiye,
"There_was_a_brown_crow"
awr agar aap ko kahna hai k
"darwaazaa Khol de" to aNgreji meN kahiye
There_was_a_cold_day
UVR
>
> 2. Naseer saahib ki aek 'slip' par, Vijay Kumar saahib ne farmaaya
> hai:
>
> [It is called a Freudian slip Naseer sahib, which means you say one
> thing when you mean a mother]. :-)
>
> Vijay saahib ki is baat par Naseer saahib farmaate haiN:
>
> [Indeed, Vijay Sahib, indeed! You are the doctor!]
>
> aur UVR saahib ka irshaad hai:
>
> [LOL!!!!!!!!!! Superb].
>
> goyaa, in dono mubassireen-e-adab ne voh 'slip' naheeN taaRii jo Khud
> Vijay saahib se sarzad hu'i hai, namely
>
> a mother --- instead of --- another! WOW!!!
>
> aur yeh voh log haiN jo mujh door-beeN v Khurd-beeN ko "sattara-
> bahattara" kehte haiN! ;)
>
> In any case, I wonder what Vijay Kumar saahib's slip should be called.
> Certainly, not Freudian ---
> may be, Aryan or Dravidian!
>
>
Raj Kumar saahib,
With all due respect, I think you may be mistaken in thinking that
there was some kind of "slip" in Vijay Kumar saahib's post. I am
of the firm belief that there was no slip at all and he wrote exactly
what he intended to -- "a mother."
They say the best way to murder a joke is to try to analyze or
explain it, but who cares? - I'll do just that here.
It is fairly common belief, I think, that Herr Freud was, in a manner
of speaking, "obsessed" with mothers and the seminal and defining
role they play in their childrens' lives. To the extent that some
feel
that in Freud's opinion, any- and everything one does is oedipal!
It's only the degree of oedipalness that varies. Gharaz k kisi se
koi 'slip' yaa 'Ghalati' sarzad ho jaaye, to woh chaahe us Ghalati
kaa 'sehraa' kisi ke sar baaNdh le, it's all really your mother :)
That's why I found what Vijay saahib wrote so witty and humourous
as to be "LOL!"-able and "wow"-able.
-UVR.
PS: I did notice Naseer saahib's slip and I didn't think it was
worth putting too fine a point on it; it was, after all, quite obvious
what he really wanted to write.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud
Naseer
janaab-i-Kala Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> Strictly on the basis on instinct I think sounds like R or RH etc
> evolved much later. ANgrej to aaj bhi ye sounds nahi nikaal paate. Aik
> kissa bayaaN karta hun,
>
> aik aNgerj KhaRi Boli(Tanhaa Sahib! I have solved the problem) seekhna
> chaahtaa thaa to use aik Hindustaani ne kahaa, ye to bohat aasaan hai.
> maslan agar aap ko kahna hai
>
> "darwaazaa baNd karo" to aap angreji meN kahiye,
>
> "There_was_a_brown_crow"
>
> awr agar aap ko kahna hai k
> "darwaazaa Khol de" to aNgreji meN kahiye
>
> There_was_a_cold_day
bahut KHuub. I will have to teach my angrez colleagues some of this
KhaRii Bolii:)
Naseer
Naseer
janaab-i-UVR Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> With all due respect, I think you may be mistaken in thinking that
> there was some kind of "slip" in Vijay Kumar saahib's post. I am
> of the firm belief that there was no slip at all and he wrote exactly
> what he intended to -- "a mother."
I would n't put my head on the block but "n" and "m" are next to each
other on the keyboard. I am sure Vijay Sahib will give us an honest
answer.
Naseer
Raj Kumar
How come, the title of this thread keeps shuttling between the one I
originally gave it and the one you threw in. May be, you planned to
start a new thread but that doesn't seem to have happened. The net
result is that my thread is finding itself in deeper and deeper
waters! :)
Can you or someone else fix this problem, please?
R.K.
UVR
RK saahib,
Please accept my apologies for not succeeding. It's surely
something to do with how Google lists USENET posts, but
since I don't work for Google or know anyone who can "fix"
this from that side, I'll just have to try the next best thing I know.
Here's what, I think, will work --
(1) if Naseer saahib could post an entirely new article (e.g.,
using the "+ new post" link near the top right hand corner
of this page), an entirely new thread will be created which
will have no reverse references to the thread initiated by
your Ghazal post.
(2) If nobody would post any more responses to the "razzmatazz"
(part of the) thread, that will keep it from bubbling up to the top.
-UVR.
tanhaa
If you look at the thread in tree form... then the "Hindi, Urdu, Re
and all that razzmatazz" subsection of the thread stands out.
Raj Kumar
>
> thanks for good ghazal.
> regards
janaab Sat Pal saahib:
Ghazal ki pazeeraa'ii ke liye maiN aap ka mamnoon hooN aur jo savaal
aap ne apni aek ba'ad ki 'post' meiN poochha hai, us ka javaab yeh
hai:
peiNda means 'bottom' --- usually of a vessel or a well. maiN ne is
lafz ko, mazeed vus'at dete huye, ise aek daraKht se mansoob kiyaa
hai; goyaa, "in havaaoN ne is shajar ko AIN NEECHE SE, ya'ani-k jaRoN
se, ukhaaR Daala hai"!
vaise, "ukhaaRne" ke ma'ani haiN hi kuchh aise k --- jaRoN se!
R.K.
Afzal A. Khan
>>>How come, the title of this thread keeps shuttling between the one I
>>>originally gave it and the one you threw in. May be, you planned to
>>>start a new thread but that doesn't seem to have happened. The net
>>>result is that my thread is finding itself in deeper and deeper
>>>waters! :)
>>
>>>Can you or someone else fix this problem, please?
>>
>>>R.K.
>>
>>RK saahib,
>>
>>Please accept my apologies for not succeeding. It's surely
>>something to do with how Google lists USENET posts, but
>>since I don't work for Google or know anyone who can "fix"
>>this from that side, I'll just have to try the next best thing I know.
>>
>>Here's what, I think, will work --
>>
>>(1) if Naseer saahib could post an entirely new article (e.g.,
>>using the "+ new post" link near the top right hand corner
>>of this page), an entirely new thread will be created which
>>will have no reverse references to the thread initiated by
>>your Ghazal post.
>>
>>(2) If nobody would post any more responses to the "razzmatazz"
>>(part of the) thread, that will keep it from bubbling up to the top.
>>
>>-UVR.
>
>
>
> If you look at the thread in tree form... then the "Hindi, Urdu, Re
> and all that razzmatazz" subsection of the thread stands out.
>
You folks are all computer experts....I am surprised to see
this discussion about "difficulties" and "fixing" etc.
Do you like the new heading ?
Afzal
Raj Kumar
> You folks are all computer experts....I am surprised to see
> this discussion about "difficulties" and "fixing" etc.
>
> Do you like the new heading ?
I don't mind this new heading --- so long as it doesn't get hijacked
again!
R.K.
Kali Hawa
>
> - Show quoted text -
aap ne yeh muhaavaraa sunaa hai?
"be peNdii kaa lotaa"
Raj Kumar
jii haaN, yaqeenan sunaa hai --- farq sirf yeh hai k hamaare haaN "be
peNde ka loTaa" kahaa jaata tha aur is ke ma'ani kuchh yooN liye jaate
the, jaise ko'i halka-phulka (=shallow) sa shaKhs!
mantiq is ma'ani ki shaayad yeh ho k jaise "be peNde" ka loTaa bharaa
naheeN jaa sakta, isi tar'h ---- a shallow person cannot be brought
upto the mark!
ba-har-haal, is dil-pazeer muhaavare ki yaad-dehaani ke liye aap ka
bahut bahut shukriya!
Raj Kumar
Raj Kumar
----------------
> Raj sahib,
>
> aap kii ghazal paRhi, hasb-e-ma'amuul boaht mazaa aaya. yeh 'R' ka
> harf hai to yatiim sa hii lekin aap ne to jasie ise apna hii bana liia
> hai. kyaa kyaa misaaleN pesh kii haiN, kyaa kehne.!!
taaKheer ke liye m'azirat-Khwaah hooN, Vijay saahib.
huzoor, aap ke ta'assuraat paRh kar tabii'at baaGh baaGh ho gayee ---
shukriya bahut bahut!
> 'inder kaa aKhaaRa' aur 'murda mira gaaRa' kii trakiib to aap ne Khoob
> ghaRii hai, vaah vaah. 'murda miraa gaaRa' ne to ghalib ke '....kaabe
> meN gaaRo barahaman ko' kii yaad dila dii.
mere liye yeh intehaa'i masarrat ki baat hai k aap ko maNdarja-baalaa
taraakeeb ka iste'maal pasaNd aaya --- vaise yeh taraakeeb maiN ne
Khud naheeN ghaReeN bal-k yeh barsoN se apne adab ka hissa haiN.
"Indar ka akhaaRa" ki tarkeeb maiN ne pehli baar 1948 meiN Vaheed-ud-
Diin Saleem ke aek mazmoon "talmeehaat-e-Saleem" meiN paRhi thi,
doosri baar kisi movie meiN sunii (Ghaaliban "Umraao Jaan Adaa" ki us
version meiN jo Pakistan meiN bani thi) aur teesri baar maiN ise apni
Ghazal meiN dekh rahaa hooN! :) goyaa, is tarkeeb ke 'darshan'
naayaab to naheeN magar kamyaab zaroor haiN.
> sabhii asha'ar yakta haiN lekin mujhe maqta sab se ziaadah acchha
> laga.
goyaa, meri mehnat raa'igaaN naheeN gayee! :)
Raj Kumar
Raj Kumar
> janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> shukriyah.. awr haaN, aap kii shikaayat thoRii qabl-az-vaqt hai! vuh
> is liye kih jald yaa ba-der aap ke daultat-KHaane meN mujhe Haazirii
> ke liye aanaa hii thaa magar, aap ne, jii haaN haaN aap ne mujhe ek
> duusare ruKH meN ghasiiT liyaa. nah sirf ghasiiT
> liyaa magar ghasiiTne ke ba'd yih bhii puuchhne par majbuur kar diyaa
> kih "achchhaa bhaii, ab sunaao?":):)
janaab-e-Naseer saahib:
mujhe aap ke mahabbat-naame ka javaab dene meiN yaqeenan taaKheer ho
gayee magar is meiN qusoor mera naheeN, aap ka hai! ;)
is liye k aap ke javaab ke saath hi yeh laRii kisi aur hi pagDaNDi par
chal paRii --------- go k voh pagDaNDii is shaahraah ki aek shaaKh
thi, phir bhi thi to pagDaNDi hi. maiN Ghareeb us pagDaNDi par to na
chal paaya, bas is shaahraah ke "point of bifurcation" par khaRaa aap
ke lissaani kaarvaaN ka Ghubaar dekhta rahaa! ;)
Hence the delay! :)
> Vijay Sahib awr Amit Sahib ne pahle hii aap kii Ghazal kii be-intihaa
> sitaaish kii hai. yih donoN Hazaraat shi'r-shinaas haiN, shaa'irii kii
> bhuul-bhulaiyyaaN in ke liye baaeN haath kaa khel hai. maiN to, jaisaa
> kih, Zafar Sahib ne ek aadh
> baar "sifaaratii" tariiqe se ishaarah kiyaa hai, shi'r-naa-shinaas
> huuN lekin, ek anjaan awr naa-daan shaKHs bhii to kah saktaa hai kih
> aam miiThaa hai...kyoN miiThaa hai, yih us kii balaa jaane!! :)
huzoor, aap to phir bhi saahib-e-zaa'eqa haiN varna kuchh log to aise
haiN k voh yeh bhi naheeN bataa paate k aam meeTha hai yaa khaTTa yaa
bakbakaa! :)
> mujh "anjaan-o-naa-daan" ke nazdiik "ujaaRaa" jaise manuus alfaaz kaii
> baar ziyaadah mauzuuN awr mu'assar hote haiN awr is qism kii baat maiN
> pahle bhii chheR chukaa huuN. KHvaah aap log khusar phusar kar ke
> kaheN yaa 'ilaaniyah taur pih, Re Urdu kaa "roz-i-azal" se Harf hai
> awr is Harf se bane hue alfaaz bhii Urdu (az raah-i-KhaRii Bolii) ke
> haiN. aap "ranj" ko bhii apnii milkiyyat samajhte haiN awr "Re-
> daar"lafzoN ko bhii! to Urdu vaaloN ke paas kyaa bachaa, gadhe kaa
> sar?:) Raj Kumar Sahib, Re (awr maiN ho saktaa hai Ghalat huuN)
> Faarsii 'Arabii kii yaqiin-an aavaaz nahiiN lekin SaNskrit kii bhii
> nahiiN!!!
janaab, aap ki isi baat ne to saara "pavaaRaa" paa rakkhaa hai aur
maiN anaaRii is qaabil naheeN hooN aap ke is "paaye hoye pavaaRe" meiN
mazeed aRaNgaa khaRaa kar sakta --- bas isi liye dmaiN o-char roz
"nukkaR" hi meiN khaRaa rahaa! ;)
> 1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
> aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
>
> baaGh to bahut hii 'aam ho gayaa hai. aap kii "kisht-i-tamannaa" ke
> baare meN kyaa raae hai?
"kisht-e-tamannaa" is beautiful -------- however, I die for "sautii
asaraat"!
huzoor, jo lutf baaGh --- with a long vowel in it --- kehne meiN hai,
voh kisht kehne meiN naheeN hai, chaahe ko'i tarannum meiN keh rahaa
ho chaahe taiht-ul-lafz!
> 2. yeh baad-e-bahaarii thii yaa baad-e-KhizaaN, jis ne
> shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
>
> baad-i-bahaarii awr baad-i-KHizaaN donoN mere zihn meN itnii "beKH-
> kan" nahiiN lagtiiN jitnii kih ek "Ghazab-naak" aaNdhii?
> jaNjhoRne kii taaqat in "baadoN" meN kahaaN?
lagta hai, aap ne in "baadoN" ke ruKh naheeN dekhe! Naseer ji, Ghazab-
naak aaNdhiyaaN to baaGh ka "jhaTka" kar Daalti haiN jab-k yeh
"baadeN" use "halaal" karti haiN --- I know it because I have been
there! ;)
> 3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
> us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
>
> kyaa aap shajar kii jagah "peR" kaa paivand lagaa sakte haiN (ek hii
> peR baaqii?)? mere KHayaal meN yih sone par suhaage kaa kaam de gaa.
> bahut KHuub-suurat shi'r hai. daad qubuul kiijiye.
I wish I could do so but please note that, if I did so, then (to stay
in meter) you would have to read "peR" as "piR"! Are you ready for
that?
> 4. aakaash pe hooreN haiN --- hoN gii, hameN kyaa lenaa?
> ham ko to yeh dhartii hii "Indar ka akhaaRaa" hai!
>
> bahut KHuub. aasmaan meN to HuureN haiN hii, lekin aakaash/Indar kaa
> akhaaRaa bahut munaasib milaap hai.
shukriya, saahib!
> 5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
> ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
>
> "pahaaRaa paRhnaa" se maiN "times-table" raTne ke ma'nii letaa huuN.
> kyaa is ko "sabaq! ke ma'nii meN bhii liyaa jaa saktaa hai?
"pahaaRaa" is, of course, an 'oral multiplication table' that is
repeated again and again, so it gets sunk in the minds of the pupils.
I here decided to extend the connotation of this term to mean "any
repetitive narration that is supposed to hammer the message in"!
> 6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
> yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
> gaaRnaa nah sirf daabne ke ma'nii detaa hai bal-kih "khaRaa karne" ke
> bhii. lihaazah bahut bahut achchhaa shi'r hai.ek baar phir daad qubuul
> kiijiye, vaah! aap "taariikii hii taariikii" ke baare meN soch rahe
> haiN. "andheraa hii andheraa"???
lafz "gaaRna " par aap ka mushaahida qaabil-e-sad-tehseen hai, saahib.
maiN ne to is lafz ko sirf 'horizontal sense' meiN liyaa tha magar
aap ne to ise 'vertical sense' bhi ataa kar di! :)
goyaa, yaaroN ne mere murde ko lahad meiN liTaaya naheeN bal-k use
vahaaN laa kar khaRaa kar diaya hai --- jaise k maiN kisi aNjuman ka
"jhaNDaa" tha! LOL
May be, I was ------------- Ghaaliban, bazm-e-haseenaaN ka! :), bal-k
LOL, bal-k ROTFL
> yaqiin-an aap ke dimaaGh meN awr bhii aise kaii alfaaz aae hoN ge.
> mere kund-zihn meN is vaqt "jaaRaa" "taaRaa" "paaRaa" (a kind of
> dear)"kaaRhaa" ( double meaning!), "gaaRhaa" etc aa rahe haiN.
Oh, come on ---------- I had at least a dozen more qavaafii in my mind
but I couldn't use them because I could not construct a sensible she'r
out of them! :(
And, B/W, "kaaRhaa", "gaaRhaa" jaise alfaaz is Ghazal ke qavaafii
naheeN ho sakte because ------- (fill in the blanks yourself)! :)
> ek Ghair-ma'mullii Ghazal pesh karne kaa bahut bahut shukriyah.
navaazish hai aap ki, saahib, --- albatta, jaane se peshtar aek baar
phir arz karna chaahooN ga k aap ke mahbbat-naame ka javaab dene meiN
jo Dheel mujh se sarzad hu'ii hai, maiN us ke liye mu'aafii ka Khwaast-
gaar hooN!
> aap ne lafz "akkhaR" kaa zikr kiyaa hai. isii naam kaa ek Pakistani
> Drama hai. agar aap ko mil sake to zaruur dekhiye gaa.awr phir mujhe
> apnii du'aaoN meN yaad kiijiye gaa.
yaar, mere paas aise vaseele kahaaN k maiN aise javaaharaat ko Tatol
sakooN --- aap yoo kareN k is Draame ka ko'i 'record' agar aap ke paas
hai to aap us ki aek naql mujh hujra-nisheeN tak pahuNchaa deN. agar
aap ne aisa kiyaa to, va'ada rahaa, k
hajj kaa savaab nazr karooN gaa huzoor kii!
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Raj Kumar
> 6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
> yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
> aap "taariikii hii taariikii" ke baare meN soch rahe
> haiN. "andheraa hii andheraa"???
huzoor, aap ke mahabbat-naame ka javaab dete huye, mujh se aap ke is
savaal ka javaab chhuT gayaa thaa, so ab de rahaa hooN.
arz yeh hai k Urdu shaa'iri meiN lafz "andheraa" jahaaN kaheeN bhi
baaNdha gayaa hai is meiN 'n' ki avaaz ko be-vazn samjhaa gayaa hai
--- jaise,
andhe ko andhere meiN bahut door ki soojhii
jab-k mere misre meiN is aavaaz ko baa-vazn hona paRe ga --- aur aisa
karna (mere mushaahide ke mutaabiq) naa-ravaa hai!
is zimn meiN, maze ki baat yeh hai k lafz "andher" meiN 'n' ki aavaaz
baa-vazn hoti hai, jaise
parvaanoN ka hai bazm meiN, ai Josh, qatl-e-aam
andher --- aur voh bhi chiraaGhoN ke saamne!
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Kali Hawa
>
> - Show quoted text -
Raj Kumar Sahib
aadaab!
First of all let me congratulate you for presenting a 'landmark'
ghazal. merii itnii haisiyat nahi k is par kuch boluuN jab bohat se is
fan meN maahir ustaad apna tabsirah kar chuke haiN. Ghazal meN kuch
lajavaab jumle istemaal hue haiN ( lataaRaa, ukhaaRaa - If I am not
wrong John Eliyaa used similar power words)
And as usual very lyrical with big bang saved for maqta.
About muhavaraa:
I think peNdaa in this muhavaraa is used in the sense of rim at the
bottom of loTaa. The muhavaraa is used for a person having allegiance
to none just as a rimless bottom will make loTaa to roll in any
direction.
But I was surprised at so many people missing the meaning
of 'pendaa'
aadaab arz hai
Kali Hawa
Naseer
janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
aap ne nah sirf mere KHat kaa javaab diyaa hai balkih apnaa qiimatii
vaqt sarf kar ke baRe pyaar bhare lahje meN diyaa hai. aap kaa
nihaayat mamnuun huuN.
> huzoor, aap to phir bhi saahib-e-zaa'eqa haiN varna kuchh log to aise
> haiN k voh yeh bhi naheeN bataa paate k aam meeTha hai yaa khaTTa yaa
> bakbakaa! :)
pahlii baar lafz "bakbakaa" sunaa hai. ya'nii che?
> "kisht-e-tamannaa" is beautiful -------- however, I die for "sautii
> asaraat"!
> huzoor, jo lutf baaGh --- with a long vowel in it --- kehne meiN hai,
> voh kisht kehne meiN naheeN hai, chaahe ko'i tarannum meiN keh rahaa
> ho chaahe taiht-ul-lafz!
aap se ittifaaq kartaa huuN.
> > 2. yeh baad-e-bahaarii thii yaa baad-e-KhizaaN, jis ne
> > shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
>
> > baad-i-bahaarii awr baad-i-KHizaaN donoN mere zihn meN itnii "beKH-
> > kan" nahiiN lagtiiN jitnii kih ek "Ghazab-naak" aaNdhii?
> > jaNjhoRne kii taaqat in "baadoN" meN kahaaN?
>
> lagta hai, aap ne in "baadoN" ke ruKh naheeN dekhe! Naseer ji, Ghazab-
> naak aaNdhiyaaN to baaGh ka "jhaTka" kar Daalti haiN jab-k yeh
> "baadeN" use "halaal" karti haiN --- I know it because I have been
> there! ;)
ek baar phir aap ne mujhe qaail kar liyaa hai!
> > 3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
> > us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
>
> > kyaa aap shajar kii jagah "peR" kaa paivand lagaa sakte haiN (ek hii
> > peR baaqii?)? mere KHayaal meN yih sone par suhaage kaa kaam de gaa.
> > bahut KHuub-suurat shi'r hai. daad qubuul kiijiye.
>
> I wish I could do so but please note that, if I did so, then (to stay
> in meter) you would have to read "peR" as "piR"! Are you ready for
> that?
dekhiye, Raj Kumar Sahib. aap kaa kaam hai vazn durust karnaa.
hamaaraa kaam hai tajviiz pesh karnaa!!:)
is dasht-i-junooN meN thii bas ek piiR baaqii
us ko bhi davaaoN ne kaleje se ukhaaRaa hai!
????
> lafz "gaaRna " par aap ka mushaahida qaabil-e-sad-tehseen hai, saahib.
> maiN ne to is lafz ko sirf 'horizontal sense' meiN liyaa tha magar
> aap ne to ise 'vertical sense' bhi ataa kar di! :)
> goyaa, yaaroN ne mere murde ko lahad meiN liTaaya naheeN bal-k use
> vahaaN laa kar khaRaa kar diaya hai --- jaise k maiN kisi aNjuman ka
> "jhaNDaa" tha! LOL
> May be, I was ------------- Ghaaliban, bazm-e-haseenaaN ka! :), bal-k
> LOL, bal-k ROTFL
nah jaane kyoN mere dimaaGh meN "vertical burial" kii soch kuchh
ziyaadah hii Ghaalib thii!! vaise aap kaa javaab paRh kar baRaa mazah
aayaa. ab bhii haNsii qabuu meN nahiiN aa rahii!
>> ek Ghair-ma'mullii Ghazal pesh karne kaa bahut bahut shukriyah.
>
> navaazish hai aap ki, saahib, --- albatta, jaane se peshtar aek baar
> phir arz karna chaahooN ga k aap ke mahbbat-naame ka javaab dene meiN
> jo Dheel mujh se sarzad hu'ii hai, maiN us ke liye mu'aafii ka Khwaast-
> gaar hooN!
janaab, aap aisaa kah kar mujhe kyoN sharmindah kar rahe haiN?
> > aap ne lafz "akkhaR" kaa zikr kiyaa hai. isii naam kaa ek Pakistani
> > Drama hai. agar aap ko mil sake to zaruur dekhiye gaa.awr phir mujhe
> > apnii du'aaoN meN yaad kiijiye gaa.
>
> yaar, mere paas aise vaseele kahaaN k maiN aise javaaharaat ko Tatol
> sakooN --- aap yoo kareN k is Draame ka ko'i 'record' agar aap ke paas
> hai to aap us ki aek naql mujh hujra-nisheeN tak pahuNchaa deN. agar
> aap ne aisa kiyaa to, va'ada rahaa, k
>
> hajj kaa savaab nazr karooN gaa huzoor kii!
agar yih baat hai to maiN zaruur is "khel" ko Haasil karne kii koshish
karuuN gaa. vaise agar aap ke shahr meN koii "video" dokaan hai jahaaN
se aap Bollywood kii filmeN kiraae par le sakte haiN, to vahaan se aap
ko "akkhaR" mil sake gaa.
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Naseer
janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> arz yeh hai k Urdu shaa'iri meiN lafz "andheraa" jahaaN kaheeN bhi
> baaNdha gayaa hai is meiN 'n' ki avaaz ko be-vazn samjhaa gayaa hai
> --- jaise,
>
> andhe ko andhere meiN bahut door ki soojhii
>
> jab-k mere misre meiN is aavaaz ko baa-vazn hona paRe ga --- aur aisa
> karna (mere mushaahide ke mutaabiq) naa-ravaa hai!
>
> is zimn meiN, maze ki baat yeh hai k lafz "andher" meiN 'n' ki aavaaz
> baa-vazn hoti hai, jaise
>
> parvaanoN ka hai bazm meiN, ai Josh, qatl-e-aam
> andher --- aur voh bhi chiraaGhoN ke saamne!
kyaa KHuub shi'r kaa aap ne iqtibaas kiyaa hai!!
ya'nii Urdu shaa'irii meN andheraa= aNdheraa awr andher=andher?
maiN ne Platts meN to nahiiN dekhaa lekin merii ek luGhat meN in donoN
alfaaz ko nuun-i-Ghunnah se likhaa gayaa hai.
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Raj Kumar
> On Oct 14, 2:59 pm, Raj Kumar <rajkumarq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> janaab-i-Raj Kumar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> > arz yeh hai k Urdu shaa'iri meiN lafz "andheraa" jahaaN kaheeN bhi
> > baaNdha gayaa hai is meiN 'n' ki avaaz ko be-vazn samjhaa gayaa hai
> > --- jaise,
>
> > andhe ko andhere meiN bahut door ki soojhii
>
> > jab-k mere misre meiN is aavaaz ko baa-vazn hona paRe ga --- aur aisa
> > karna (mere mushaahide ke mutaabiq) naa-ravaa hai!
>
> > is zimn meiN, maze ki baat yeh hai k lafz "andher" meiN 'n' ki aavaaz
> > baa-vazn hoti hai, jaise
>
> > parvaanoN ka hai bazm meiN, ai Josh, qatl-e-aam
> > andher --- aur voh bhi chiraaGhoN ke saamne!
> kyaa KHuub shi'r kaa aap ne iqtibaas kiyaa hai!!
Thanks, Naseer saahib, for liking the she'r I quoted --- however, just
for record, I would like to say that this she'r is NOT by Josh
Maleehaabaadi (as some readers might think) --- it is by Josh
Malsiyaani, the author of "deevaan-e-Ghaalib m'a shar'h", the guy whom
a lot of well-meaning people regarded as "jaa-nisheen-e-DaaGh"!
> ya'nii Urdu shaa'irii meN andheraa= aNdheraa awr andher=andher?
> maiN ne Platts meN to nahiiN dekhaa lekin merii ek luGhat meN in donoN
> alfaaz ko nuun-i-Ghunnah se likhaa gayaa hai.
Frankly speaking, I don't go by the way how literally our dictionaries
write these words (because their problem is basically a problem of
transliteration, as everyone else's is!) --- I instead prefer to go by
the way our "prominent poets" use these words in their compositions
(because that tells me a lot about how a particular word should be
pronounced and/or employed!).
R.K.
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
Taqreeban 5 maah qabl maiN ne Marhoom Munshi Tilok Chand Mehroom
kee ek nazm yahaaN aap ke kisee KHat kee laRi men pesh ki thi :
"Noor JahaaN Ke Mazaar Par". Us nazm ka ek baNd aap do'baara
mulaahiza farmaayeN :
Ta'weez-e-leh'd hai zabar-o-zer, yeh an'dher !
Yeh daur-e-zamaane ka ulaT~pher, yeh an'dher !
AaNgan men paRe gard ke haiN Dher, yeh an'dher !
Ai gardish-e-ayyaam, yeh an'dher, yeh an'dher !!
Afzal
UVR
[Responding to two posts at once]
Part 1:
Afzal saahib, what an apt example you have quoted!
I merely wanted to make a minor point about the word "leh'd"
as written above -- Mehroom saahib has employed this word
as "lahad" (which, it appears, is indeed the 'faseeh' way of
pronouncing this word) in order to agree with the behr of the
poem.
Which behr, as an aside, is the same as the one Ghalib has
used for:
tuu dost kisii kaa bhi sitam-gar na huaa thaa
auroN pe hai woh zulm k mujh par na huaa thaa)
It is interesting to observe the way another (albeit filmi) poet
has used 'andher', coincidentally, in the same behr --
aanaa hai to aa, raah meN kuchh pher naheeN hai
bhagwaan ke ghar der hai andher naheeN hai
I find the way Sahir Ludhiyanvi has co-opted the proverb
"bhagwan ke ghar ..." into this Naya Daur (1951) song
especially attractive.
Part 2:
Naseer saahib,
> > ya'nii Urdu shaa'irii meN andheraa= aNdheraa awr andher=andher?
> > maiN ne Platts meN to nahiiN dekhaa lekin merii ek luGhat meN in donoN
> > alfaaz ko nuun-i-Ghunnah se likhaa gayaa hai.
jahaaN tak mujhe 'ilm hai, na sirf Urdu shaa'iri meN, bal-k Urdu
zubaan meN bhi in alfaaz ko Theek isee tarah ist'emaal karnaa
chaahiye. rahaa Platts kaa sawaal, to yeh qusoor un ki chuni hui
"transliteration scheme" kaa bhi ho saktaa hai (jo, mujhe lagtaa
hai, Urdu rasm-ul-Khat par mabni hai). meraa Khayaal hai aap
in lafzoN ko kisi Devanagari shabdkosh meN DhooNDeN, aur
kisi aise shabdkosh meN jahaaN "chandrabindu" aur "anuswar"
(bindi) donoN ko apni-apni munaasib ahmiyat dee gayi ho, to
yaqeenan aap ko "aNdheraa" chandrabindu ke saath aur
"andher" bindi ke saath likhaa milegaa. chandrabindu aur
anuswaar ke aapasi farq se to aap Khoob waaqif haiN hi.
-UVR.
Raj Kumar
> On Oct 9, 7:20 pm, Raj Kumar <rajkumarq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 6. tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii, sannaaTa hi sannaaTaa
> > > > yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
> > > wow!!!!!!!!! bahut hi khoob RK sahib, bahut hi khoob. this is
> > > definitely the one couplet that stands out in this whole Ghazal. ise
> > > kahte haiN haasil-e-Ghazal.
>
> > chaliye, agar ------------- "aap kehte haiN to phir Theek hi kehte hoN
> > ge"! ;)
>
> > B/W, on further revision, I have changed "tanhaa'i hi tanhaa'ii" to
> > "taareeki hi taareekii" ----- I hope, you approve of this change!
>
> Coming back to your Ghazal Raj Sahib, I'm wondering why the change
> from 'tanhaai hi tanhaaii' to 'taareeki hi taareekii'??
>
> I have been humming this couplet and the matla of your Ghazal for the
> past few days since I have read it and I think 'tanhaai hi tanhaaii'
> has grown on me. I like the implications of this, of course taareeki'
> could make sense in a way that k jahaaN murdaa gaaRaa hai, vahaaN
> andhera to hoga hi, but 'tanhaai' leaves a different sort of
> implications which goes with "KAHAAN" laa kar. Just trying to
> understand your mindset as to why the change, what implications it has
> on the couplet and does it make it better? Incidently, my approving
> of the change won't have any thing to do with whether you make the
> change or not, though personaly I like the original form of your
> couplet a lot more. :-)
I understand your concern, Amit saahib. Yes, I do! And the basis of
my understanding is this ---
"janaab-e-tanhaa" ko jo "uns" lafz tanhaa'ii se hai, voh lafz taareeki
se kahaaN ho sakti hai? :)
In any case, in a (still) semi-serious vein, my point of view was
-----------
agar to mere murde ko kisi aise maqaam par gaaRaa gayaa ho jahaaN
faqat maiN hi maiN hooN, tab to "tanhaa'ii hi tanhaa'ii" vaajib hai
--- bar-aks is ke, agar use kisi "aam qabristaan" meiN dafn kiyaa
gayaa ho to, huzoor, vahaaN to daayeN-baayeN aage-peechhe murde hi
murde hoN ge ----------- to phir vahaaN "tanhaa'ii" kaisi? :)
bal-k LOL
albatta, har-do-suurat-e-haal meiN, taareekii to hogi hi ------------
that is why!
R.K.
Zafar
janaab Raj Kumar saahib, Naseer saahib itti zid kar rahe haiN to in ki
Khaahish poori kar dete haiN (aap ki ijaazat se ... go ma'aloom naheeN
k is she'r ki zameen meN peR lagaane se koyi Khaas farq paRe gaa):
is dasht e junooN meN bas "ik" peR hi baaqi thaa
us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai
is par mujhe Shikeb Jalali kaa she'r yaad aa gayaa:
na itni tez chale, sar phiri hawaa se kaho
shajar pe aik hi pattaa dikhaayi detaa hai
vaise aik baat kahe baGhair reh naheeN saktaa k is doosre misre meN
lafz pende kaa iste'emaal bahut Khoob hai. 'aam taur par ye bartan ke
"tale" ko kehte haiN, lekin is kaa aik aur matlab daraKht ki jaR bhi
hai, jo aap ke she'r meN bartaa gayaa hai.
naacheez daad qubool farmaa'iye,
Zafar
UVR
Zafar saahib,
gustaaKhi ma'af ho to 'arz karooN k RK saahib ke original misr'e
meN aur aap ke darj-e-baalaa mujawwiza misr'e meN ek baareek
magar bahut aham farq hai. woh yeh k jahaaN RK saahib kaa
zor dasht-e-junooN meN "sirf ek" peR ke baaqi hone par hai,
waheeN aap kaa misr'a is baat par zor de rahaa hai k dasht-e-
junooN meN "ik *peR* hi" baaqi thaa.
mujhe ma'aloom naheeN k maiN apni baat waazeh taur se
kah paayaa hooN yaa naheeN. agar aap apne aur RK saahib
ke misr'oN meN lafz "ek" aur "ik" ke alahida-alahida "stress"
par (aur apne misr'e meN "peR" par paR rahe emphasis par)
Ghaur kareN, to shaayad meri baat samajh jaayeN.
alfaaz ke pher badal se lafz "ek" par thoRaa stress baRhaayaa
bhi jaa saktaa hai, (mas.alan -- is dasht-e-junooN meN bas
peR EK hi baaqi thaa) magar meraa Khayaal hai k aisa karne
par bhi "peR" ki taraf zaroorat se ziyaadah focus aa rahaa hai.
Gharaz k "shajar" lafz hi is sh'er ke saath saheeh insaaf kartaa
hai, to kyooN na is sh'er ko waisa hi chhoR diyaa jaaye jaisa k
RK saahib ne ise murattab kiyaa hai?
-UVR.
Naseer
> rahaa Platts kaa sawaal, to yeh qusoor un ki chuni hui
> "transliteration scheme" kaa bhi ho saktaa hai (jo, mujhe lagtaa
> hai, Urdu rasm-ul-Khat par mabni hai).
janaab-i-UVR Sajib, aadaab 'arz hai.
janaab maiN ne to 'arz kiyaa thaa kih maiN ne Platts meN in alfaaz ko
nahiiN talaash kiyaa.
> meraa Khayaal hai aap in lafzoN ko kisi Devanagari shabdkosh meN > DhooNDeN, aur kisi aise shabdkosh meN jahaaN "chandrabindu"
> aur "anuswar" (bindi) donoN ko apni-apni munaasib ahmiyat dee gayi
> ho, to yaqeenan aap ko "aNdheraa" chandrabindu ke saath aur
> "andher" bindi ke saath likhaa milegaa. chandrabindu aur
> anuswaar ke aapasi farq se to aap Khoob waaqif haiN hi.
aap ke mashvare ke liye maiN mamnuun huuN. agar koii majbuurii aan
paRii to apne Dr. Stewart McGregor Sahib kii Hindi-English (OUP)
luGhat kii varq-gardaanii kar luuN gaa:)
vaise ho saktaa hai kih aap kisii aisii Hindi-Urdu shabd-kosh ke baare
meN jaante hoN jis meN chandrabindu awr anusvar kaa har jagah par
saHiiH isti'maal dikhaayaa gayaa hai. mere tajrube meN to in kaa
isti'maal qadre maKHluut hai, KHusuus-an jahaaN par duusre nishaanoN
kii vajH se jagah kii "tangii" ho.
> chandrabindu aur anuswaar ke aapasi farq se to aap Khoob waaqif
> haiN hi.
jii haaN, yahaaN par maiN aap se mukammal ittifaaq kartaa huuN:)
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
> janaab Raj Kumar saahib, Naseer saahib itti zid kar rahe haiN to in ki
> Khaahish poori kar dete haiN (aap ki ijaazat se ... go ma'aloom naheeN k is she'r ki zameen meN peR lagaane se koyi Khaas farq paRe gaa):
> is dasht e junooN meN bas "ik" peR hi baaqi thaa
> us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai
janaab-i-Zafar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
is shi'r kii zamiin meN, yaa kisii bhii shi'r kii zamiin meN peR
lagaane se do faaide hoN ge.
1) peR, jo kih ek bhuulaa-bisraa lafz ban gayaa hai, use do-baarah
'izzat baKHshii jaa rahii hai.
2) peR kii ba-daulat shi'r meN ek awr Re aa saktii hai:)
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Zafar
UVR saahib:
aap ki baat bajaa UVR ji, is baat se qata' e nazar k mere tajveez
karda misre se bhi "ik peR" kaa matlab liyaa jaa saktaa hai, aham baat
ye hai k maiN ne (Khudaa-na-Khaasta) RK saahib ki "islaah" ke liye,
yaa un ke misre ko "replace" karne ke liye, ye misra' naheeN likhaa
thaa ... vo to bas Naseer saahib ki (ma'asoom si) Khaahis poori karne
ke liye thaa. is liye us par ziyaada maGhz khapaane ki zaroorat
naheeN hai.
Naseer saahib:
huzoor, aap farmaa rahe haiN k peR "bhoolaa bisraa" lafz ban gayaa
hai, lekin na jaane mujhe jadeed shaa'iri meN har taraf is ki bharmaar
kyoN nazar aati hai? lekin Khair, misaaleN dene se kyaa faa'ida?
aadaab arz hai,
Zafar
Naseer
Zafar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
lagtaa hai kih "jadiid shaa'irii" paRh kar hii "ma'suumiyyat" duur ho
gii:)
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
>
> Naseer saahib:
>
> huzoor, aap farmaa rahe haiN k peR "bhoolaa bisraa" lafz ban gayaa
> hai, lekin na jaane mujhe jadeed shaa'iri meN har taraf is ki bharmaar
> kyoN nazar aati hai?
> aadaab arz hai,
>
> Zafar
Yaqeenan, is ka kuchh "credit" Global Warming ko bhee dena
chaahiye.
Afzal
Raj Kumar
KAHAAN AA GAYE HAM ------------ NASHA HI NASHA HAI! :)
yaaraan-e-mehfil, maiN yeh ma'asoom si Ghazal kyaa keh baiThaa ----
"aek tuufaan mol le baiTha"
aur voh bhi "muft meiN"! ;)
na-jaane kyooN, mere is she'r ne ALUP par be-jaa vaahi-tabaahi machaa
rakkhi hai:
is dasht-e-junooN meN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai
Anil saahib ne is she'r ko "bil-Khusoos" saraaha aur Naseer saahib ne
ise saraaha to --- magar saath hi yeh Khwaahish bhi zaahir ki k (kisi
suurat) maiN lafz "shajar" ko "peR" se badal dooN. maiN ne un ki is
baat par diyaanat-daari se Ghaur kiyaa magar afsos k mujhe ko'i
munaasib badal nazar na aayaa!
meri is majboori par taras khaate huye, hamaare "kanz-e-laa-
intehaa" (jinheN avaam Zafar kehte haiN aur Khwaas Zaf --- albatta,
maiN hujra-nisheeN na to avaaam meiN hooN aur na hi Khwaas --- maiN
agar hooN to mahz "Khaas-ul-Khaas") ;)
ne farmaaya:
[janaab Raj Kumar saahib, Naseer saahib itti zid kar rahe haiN to in
ki
Khaahish poori kar dete haiN (aap ki ijaazat se ... go ma'aloom
naheeN
k is she'r ki zameen meN peR lagaane se koyi Khaas farq paRe gaa):
is dasht e junooN meN bas "ik" peR hi baaqi thaa
us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai]
aaj sub'h jab maiN ne, neem-Khwaabi ke aalam meiN, yeh sujhaao paRhaa
to mere haathoN ke tote uR gaye --- phir, do miniT ba'ad, is sujhaao
par maiN ne saahib-e-mushkil-kushaa "jinheN aam log UVR kehte haiN aur
Khaas log Ravindra!) ka farmaan dekha to jaan meiN jaan aa'ii. aaN-
hazrat farmaate haiN:
[gustaaKhi ma'af ho to 'arz karooN k RK saahib ke original misr'e
meN aur aap ke darj-e-baalaa mujawwiza misr'e meN ek baareek
magar bahut aham farq hai. woh yeh k jahaaN RK saahib kaa
zor dasht-e-junooN meN "sirf ek" peR ke baaqi hone par hai,
waheeN aap kaa misr'a is baat par zor de rahaa hai k dasht-e-
junooN meN "ik *peR* hi" baaqi thaa.
mujhe ma'aloom naheeN k maiN apni baat waazeh taur se
kah paayaa hooN yaa naheeN. agar aap apne aur RK saahib
ke misr'oN meN lafz "ek" aur "ik" ke alahida-alahida "stress"
par (aur apne misr'e meN "peR" par paR rahe emphasis par)
Ghaur kareN, to shaayad meri baat samajh jaayeN.
alfaaz ke pher badal se lafz "ek" par thoRaa stress baRhaayaa
bhi jaa saktaa hai, (mas.alan -- is dasht-e-junooN meN bas
peR EK hi baaqi thaa) magar meraa Khayaal hai k aisa karne
par bhi "peR" ki taraf zaroorat se ziyaadah focus aa rahaa hai.
Gharaz k "shajar" lafz hi is sh'er ke saath saheeh insaaf kartaa
hai, to kyooN na is sh'er ko waisa hi chhoR diyaa jaaye jaisa k
RK saahib ne ise murattab kiyaa hai?]
mujhe Ravindra saahib ki yeh daleel be-had pasaNd aa'ii --- yeh alag
baat k agar un ki jagah maiN hota to isi daleel ko apne (professorial)
aNdaz meiN yooN kehta:
Zafar saahib ke mujavviza badal ka matlab yooN lagta hai k "is baaGh-e-
tamanna meiN bhaaNt-bhaaNt ki ashiyaa maujood theeN, jo havaadis-e-
zamaana ki ba-daulat aek aek karke Khatm ho gayeeN, albatta in
havaadis ke baa-vujood vahaaN faqat aek yeh peR tha jo k ab tak
istaada rahaa. magar afsos k ab havaaoN ne ISE BHI ukhaaR phaiNka hai"
jab-k mere she'r ka maf_hoom tha:
"is baaGh-e-tamanna meiN hazaaroN ashjaar hu'aa karte the, havaadis-e-
zamaana ne aek aek karke un sabhi ashjaar ko taih-e-baala kar diyaa
--- sivaaye aek IS SHAJAR ke jo k ab tak bhi istaada tha! magar,
hamaari shoomi-e-qismat dekhiye k havaaoN ne ab ise bhi taih-e-baala
kar diyaa hai!"
I think, I like the original version much better!
Zafar saahib, is tashreeh ka itlaaq aap par naheeN hai kyooN-k aap to
gyaanii-dhyaanii haiN --- maiN ne yeh vazaahat is liye pesh ki hai k
hamaare is gulzaar-e-ALUP meiN sirf aap jaise zabaan-daan hi naheeN
aate bal-k bahut saare "mubtadii" bhi aate haiN!
ba-har-haal, aage chal kar, aap ne saheeh farmaaya hai:
[UVR saahib:
aap ki baat bajaa UVR ji, is baat se qata' e nazar k mere tajveez
karda misre se bhi "ik peR" kaa matlab liyaa jaa saktaa hai, aham
baat
ye hai k maiN ne (Khudaa-na-Khaasta) RK saahib ki "islaah" ke liye,
yaa un ke misre ko "replace" karne ke liye, ye misra' naheeN likhaa
thaa ... vo to bas Naseer saahib ki (ma'asoom si) Khaahis poori karne
ke liye thaa. is liye us par ziyaada maGhz khapaane ki zaroorat
naheeN hai.]
Point taken --- albatta, Naseer saahib go k "saahib-e-sidq-o-safaa"
haiN, phir bhi un ki tasalli karna aasaan kaam naheeN hai. dekhiye,
aap sabhoN ki koshishoN ke baa-vujood aaN-hazrat farmaate haiN:
[janaab-i-Zafar Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
is shi'r kii zamiin meN, yaa kisii bhii shi'r kii zamiin meN peR
lagaane se do faaide hoN ge.
1) peR, jo kih ek bhuulaa-bisraa lafz ban gayaa hai, use do-baarah
'izzat baKHshii jaa rahii hai.
2) peR kii ba-daulat shi'r meN ek awr Re aa saktii hai:) ]
goyaa, aaN-hazrat ko (jo das adad "Re --- yeeN" maiN ne is Ghazal meiN
barti haiN) se tasalli naheeN hu'ii aur voh ab bhi chaahate haiN ke
maiN yahaaN aek gayaarahviiN 'Re" ko ghuseRooN! ab to Naseer saahib
ki Khidmat meiN mujhe yihii kehna hoga:
voh ab bhi keh rahe haiN, "tasallii" naheeN hu'ii!
haalaaN-k "poora zor" lagaaye huye haiN ham!!! :( ;)
R.K.
UVR
>
> yaaraan-e-mehfil, maiN yeh ma'asoom si Ghazal kyaa keh baiThaa ----
> "aek tuufaan mol le baiTha"
> aur voh bhi "muft meiN"! ;)
>
How true! and here I am, waiting for things to 'settle down' before
expressing my ta`assuraat on your Ghazal.
-UVR.
Raj Kumar
>
> Raj Kumar Sahib
> aadaab!
>
> First of all let me congratulate you for presenting a 'landmark'
> ghazal. merii itnii haisiyat nahi k is par kuch boluuN jab bohat se is
> fan meN maahir ustaad apna tabsirah kar chuke haiN. Ghazal meN kuch
> lajavaab jumle istemaal hue haiN ( lataaRaa, ukhaaRaa - If I am not
> wrong John Eliyaa used similar power words)
>
> And as usual very lyrical with big bang saved for maqta.
janaab Anil saahib:
Ghazal ki pazeeraa'ii ke liye aur is ki jumla sifaat ko pasaNd
farmaane ke liye aap ka bahut bahut shukriya.
> About muhavaraa:
>
> I think peNdaa in this muhavaraa is used in the sense of rim at the
> bottom of loTaa. The muhavaraa is used for a person having allegiance
> to none just as a rimless bottom will make loTaa to roll in any
> direction.
jo ma'ani is muhaavare ke aap ne bataaye haiN, voh mere liye naye
haiN, magar ain mumkin hai k yeh ma'ani bhi ravaa hoN! vaise, jahaaN
tak mera Khayaal hai lafz 'peNde' ka ta'alluq kisi bartan ki "bottom"
se hai, na k us ke "rim" se.
>
> But I was surprised at so many people missing the meaning
> of 'pendaa'
Frankly, I wasn't. After all, how often does one hear this word spoken
or see it written? Hardly ever!
Raj Kumar
Zafar
aur mujhe bhi ye jaan kar hairat naheeN huwi k meri 3 din pehle ki ye
tehreer mazaameen e nau ke anbaar tale dab gayi:
vaise aik baat kahe baGhair reh naheeN saktaa k is doosre misre meN
lafz pende kaa iste'emaal bahut Khoob hai. 'aam taur par ye bartan
ke
"tale" ko kehte haiN, lekin is kaa aik aur matlab daraKht ki jaR bhi
hai, jo aap ke she'r meN bartaa gayaa hai.
aadaab arz hai,
Zafar
Raj Kumar
> > > But I was surprised at so many people missing the meaning
> > > of 'pendaa'
>
> > Frankly, I wasn't. After all, how often does one hear this word spoken
> > or see it written? Hardly ever!
>
> aur mujhe bhi ye jaan kar hairat naheeN huwi k meri 3 din pehle ki ye
> tehreer mazaameen e nau ke anbaar tale dab gayi:
aahu-e-taataar-e-man,
naaqa-e-sayyaar-e-man
aNdak-o-basiyaar-e-man
in other words, janaab-e-Zafar saahib: ;)
maiN ne aaj --- ba-taareeKh 17 aktuubar ba-vaqt 2:08 pm, KH saahib ke
jis Khat ka javaab diyaa tha, voh Khat unhoN ne ba-taareeKh 14
aktuubar ba-vaqt 8:48 am likkha tha, JAB-K jo Khat "aap ji" ne likkha
tha voh ba-taareeKh 15 aktuubar ba-vaqt 8:59 pm likkha gayaa tha! ab
maiN [chooN-k shaa'ir kam hooN aur riyaazii-daan ziyaada] is liye mere
hisaab se aap ke Khat ka javaab dene ke liye mere paas abhi bahuuuuut
vaqt paRaa hai! :) bal-k LOL
mujhe lagta hai k aap ki is "ujlat-pasaNdi" hi ko madd-e-nazar rakhte
huye, kisi ne kahaa tha:
naala(h) hai, TAA'IR-e-shoreeda, tiraa KHAAAAAAM abhii!
apne seene meiN ise auuuuuuur zaraa thaaaaaam abhii!!! ;)
Ghaur keejiye, huzoor, k maiN ne (eihteyaatan) yahaaN "taa'ir" kahaa
hai, "bulbul" naheeN kahaa ---- mabaada-k aap, yeh misr'a paRhte hi,
jheNp se jaayeN! ;) bal-k :) bal-k LOL bal-k ROTFL
> vaise aik baat kahe baGhair reh naheeN saktaa k is doosre misre meN
> lafz pende kaa iste'emaal bahut Khoob hai. 'aam taur par ye bartan
> ke
> "tale" ko kehte haiN, lekin is kaa aik aur matlab daraKht ki jaR bhi
> hai, jo aap ke she'r meN bartaa gayaa hai.
Frankly speaking, I had no idea that the word 'peNda' has this
particular connotation as well, for at least my dictionary doesn't say
so! However, if this is REALLY true, then I feel 'doubly blessed'
because I used this word (the way I used it) with the 'guarded'
consideration that this usage makes sense ------ at least to me!
> is par mujhe Shikeb Jalali kaa she'r yaad aa gayaa:
> na itni tez chale, sar phiri hawaa se kaho
> shajar pe aik hi pattaa dikhaayi detaa hai
Shikeb saahib ka she'r Khoob hai magar, qismat ki Khoobi dekhiye k is
she'r ne mujhe aek sunaihri mauq'a ataa kar diyaa k maiN aap se aek
aisa savaal poochh paauuN jo k mujhe barsoN se "kalpaa" rahaa hai:
"sar phirii havaa" --------------- Zafar saahib, keeping in mind the
origin of this term, shouldn't we say "sir-phirii havaa"?
Believe me, dear, I am dying to hear your response to this query!!!
R.K.
Raj Kumar
And, now that things have by and large 'settled down', I am eagerly
awaiting those "ta'assuraat", though I must admit that my first
reaction at your offer was ----
haaye Allah --- yeh Ravindra saahib bhi kyaa balaa haiN k jinhoN ne
"de ke dhamkii Daraa diyaa mujh ko"! ;)
R.K.
Zafar
> naaqa-e-sayyaar-e-man
> aNdak-o-basiyaar-e-man
>
> in other words, janaab-e-Zafar saahib: ;)
tiriyaak e sang-choor
qumquma e qareeb o door
bal k
buq'a e noor
ya'ani huzoor e faiz-ganjoor RK saahib:
> maiN ne aaj --- ba-taareeKh 17 aktuubar ba-vaqt 2:08 pm, KH saahib ke
> jis Khat ka javaab diyaa tha, voh Khat unhoN ne ba-taareeKh 14
> aktuubar ba-vaqt 8:48 am likkha tha, JAB-K jo Khat "aap ji" ne likkha
> tha voh ba-taareeKh 15 aktuubar ba-vaqt 8:59 pm likkha gayaa tha! ab
> maiN [chooN-k shaa'ir kam hooN aur riyaazii-daan ziyaada] is liye mere
> hisaab se aap ke Khat ka javaab dene ke liye mere paas abhi bahuuuuut
> vaqt paRaa hai! :) bal-k LOL
is ke jawaab meN faqat itnaa hi kaafi hai:
kahaaN se laa'oN sabr e Hazrat e Ayyub ai saaqi
suraahi aaye, mai aaye gi, phir jaam aaye gaa!!!!
> mujhe lagta hai k aap ki is "ujlat-pasaNdi" hi ko madd-e-nazar rakhte
> huye, kisi ne kahaa tha:
>
> naala(h) hai, TAA'IR-e-shoreeda, tiraa KHAAAAAAM abhii!
> apne seene meiN ise auuuuuuur zaraa thaaaaaam abhii!!! ;)
aur isi Ghazal meN aage chal kar shaa'ir e mausoof farmaate haiN:
be-Khatar kood paRaa aatash e Namrood meN ishq
aql hai mahw e tamaashaa e lab e baam abhi!!!
> Ghaur keejiye, huzoor, k maiN ne (eihteyaatan) yahaaN "taa'ir" kahaa
> hai, "bulbul" naheeN kahaa ---- mabaada-k aap, yeh misr'a paRhte hi,
> jheNp se jaayeN! ;) bal-k :) bal-k LOL bal-k ROTFL
Khair, mujhe bulbul par bhi koyi etiraaz naheeN hai kyoN k kayi
ilaaqoN meN, bashamool hamaari taraf, bulbul ko *muzakkar* baandhaa
jaataa hai. bal k aap hi ke zaamaane kaa aik gaanaa hai:
meraa bulbul so RAHAA hai, shor o Ghul na machaa!!!
Khair, isi Khushi meN aap ko aik pate ki (maze ki) baat bataa hooN aur
vo bhi bil-kul muft:
pehle zehn meN ye rakhiye k bulbul ko Farsi meN "hazaar" bhi kehte
haiN. ab she'r suniye:
bubulaaN har taraf se uTh dauReeN
dekhne ko use hazaar hazaar!!!
[Wali]
> > vaise aik baat kahe baGhair reh naheeN saktaa k is doosre misre meN
> > lafz pende kaa iste'emaal bahut Khoob hai. 'aam taur par ye bartan
> > ke
> > "tale" ko kehte haiN, lekin is kaa aik aur matlab daraKht ki jaR bhi
> > hai, jo aap ke she'r meN bartaa gayaa hai.
>
> Frankly speaking, I had no idea that the word 'peNda' has this
> particular connotation as well, for at least my dictionary doesn't say
> so! However, if this is REALLY true, then I feel 'doubly blessed'
> because I used this word (the way I used it) with the 'guarded'
> consideration that this usage makes sense ------ at least to me!
This is REALLY true, Raj saahib, atleast per "my" dictionary!
AUR isi se wuhi puraani behs lauT ke saamne aa jaati hai k matn ke
ma'ani mutayyin karne meN manshaa e musannif (authorial intention) ko
markazi ehmeeyat honi chaahiye yaa naheeN.
ab dekhiye naa, agar aap she'r ki tashreeh bayaan karte to kehte k
pendaa = talaa; maiN kartaa to kehtaa pendaa = jaR.
aur agar jaan ki amaan paa'ooN to arz karooN ko daraKht ko "jaR" se
ukhaaR kar phenknaa ziyaada "dynamic" aur "visual" image hai, ba-
nisbat "tale" se ukhaaR kar phenkne ke!
aur waise bhi, agar aap Ghaur farmaayeN to, daraKht ke pende ko
"visualize" karnaa thoRaa dushwaar hai, kyoN k wahaaN to jaRoN kaa
jaal phelaa huvaa hotaa hai. haaN, agar lakRi kaa shehteer zameen meN
gaRaa hai to wo alag baat hai.
> > is par mujhe Shikeb Jalali kaa she'r yaad aa gayaa:
> > na itni tez chale, sar phiri hawaa se kaho
> > shajar pe aik hi pattaa dikhaayi detaa hai
>
> Shikeb saahib ka she'r Khoob hai magar, qismat ki Khoobi dekhiye k is
> she'r ne mujhe aek sunaihri mauq'a ataa kar diyaa k maiN aap se aek
> aisa savaal poochh paauuN jo k mujhe barsoN se "kalpaa" rahaa hai:
pehle to "kalapnaa" pe aik "haunting" she'r suniye:
mayyatoN ko lahad meN kalpaa'ye
ho sake sajda ik adaa, ye Khayaal
> "sar phirii havaa" --------------- Zafar saahib, keeping in mind the
> origin of this term, shouldn't we say "sir-phirii havaa"?
> Believe me, dear, I am dying to hear your response to this query!!!
Nice point "sir" ji. maiN ne pehle kabhi is amr par Ghaur naheeN
kiyaa thaa, lekin aap ki baat meN wazn hai. waaqayi, "sir-phiri"
ziyaada behtar lagtaa hai, Khaas taur par un logoN ke liye jinheN Urdu
aur Farsi alfaaz kaa idGhaam pasand naheeN hai.
aadaab arz hai,
Zafar
Naseer
> Khair, isi Khushi meN aap ko aik pate ki (maze ki) baat bataa hooN aur
> vo bhi bil-kul muft:
>
> pehle zehn meN ye rakhiye k bulbul ko Farsi meN "hazaar" bhi kehte
> haiN. ab she'r suniye:
>
> bubulaaN har taraf se uTh dauReeN
> dekhne ko use hazaar hazaar!!!
kanaar az zaahidaaN bar giir o be-baak-aanah saaGhar kash
pas az muddat az-iiN shaaKh-i-kuhan baaNg-i-hazaar aamad
Iqbal (tuluu'-i-islaam, baaNg-i-daraa)
Khair-Khvaah,
Naseer
sat pal
> yaaraan-e-mehfil:
>
> abhi haal hi meiN janaab-e-Naseer saahib ne kuchh "yateem" huroof ka
> zikr kiyaa hai, jin meiN harf "Re" Khusoosi imtiyaaz rakhtaa hai. aaN-
> janaab ka yeh farmaan yaqeenan bar-haq hai k Urdu shaa'irii meiN aise
> alfaaz kam kam hi barte jaate haiN jin meiN harf "Re" maujood ho ---
> aur agar barte bhi jaate haiN to unheN kisi Ghazal yaa nazm meiN ko'ii
> numaayaaN maqaam naheeN diyaa jaata. Naseer saahib ke is mushaahide ke
> pesh-e-nazar, Khaaksaar apni aek muKhtasar si Ghazal pesh kar rahaa
> hai jis meiN harf "Re" ko sirf bartaa hi naheeN gayaa bal-k ise
> achchhi-Khaassi ahamiyat bhi di gayee hai.
>
> to, leejiye, Ghazal haazir-e-Khidmat hai ------------- gar qubool
> uftad!
>
> --------------------
>
> matl'a arz hai:
>
> 1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
> aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
>
> shaaKhoN ko jaNjhoRaa hai, phooloN ko lataaRaa hai!
>
> us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
>
> 4. aakaash pe hooreN haiN --- hoN gii, hameN kyaa lenaa?
> ham ko to yeh dhartii hii "Indar ka akhaaRaa" hai!
>
> 5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
> ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
>
> yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar --- murda mira gaaRaa hai?
>
>
> 7. yeh aihl-e-Khirad aaKhir kyooN Qais pe haNste haiN?
> is shaKhs ne daaman ko --- kyaa "jaan ke" phaaRaa hai???
>
> hasb-e-ma'amool, aap sabhii dostoN ke ta'assuraat ka intezaar rahe ga!
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Dear raj saab,
namaskar,
kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
aapka ye sher bahut khoob hai. poori ghazal me lai or ravaangi bahut
achchi hai.
aapko mubarikbad.
thanks
sat pal
UVR
Raj Kumar saahib,
dekhiye kaisi viDambanaa hai k ab jab ke yeh laRi "shaant"
ho chuki hai, to mere paas kuchh Khaas likhne ko rah hi
naheeN gayaa :-)
aap ki Ghazal baRi dilchasp lagee aur Khaas taur par is liye
k aap ne Naseer saahib ke "farmaa'ish" karte hi ise pesh kar
diyaa. It was almost like it was a "challenge-response" thing
going on.
mujhe aap ki Ghazal ke prime-numbered ash'aar baaqiyoN ki
nisbat ziyaada achchhe lage[1]. matle meN sawaal kis/kin se
kiyaa jaa rahaa hai, is baat ko "nebulous" chhoR denaa baRaa
dilchasp lagaa. "peNde" waale sh'er par kaafi bahs ho chuki
hai, magar mujhe yeh naheeN samajh aayaa k yeh lafz (aur
pahaaRaa) itnaa "rare" kab se ho gayaa? maantaa hooN k
aise kuchh lafz haiN jo "adabi" halqoN meN kam-kam hi nazar
aate haiN, lekin since when did language become the exclusive
preserve of literateurs and poets? Khair. Ghazal kaa maqt'a
hi mere nazdeek is kaa sab se behtareen sh'er hai -- I thought
it was, as the expression goes, "rad." :-)
-UVR.
[1] ya'ani yeh sh'er:
1. kyooN baaGh-e-tamannaa ko is tar'h ujaaRaa hai?
aisaa bhi bigaRnaa kyaa --- kyaa ham ne bigaaRaa hai?
3. is dasht-e-junooN meiN thaa bas aek shajar baaqii
us ko bhi havaa'oN ne peNde se ukhaaRaa hai!
5. insaaN hoN, farishte hoN --- mehboob hi afzal hai!
ushshaaq ke maktab kaa yeh pehla pahaaRaa hai!!!
7. yeh aihl-e-Khirad aaKhir kyooN Qais pe haNste haiN?
UVR
In my haste, I forgot to copy down #2.
-UVR.
Vijay
UVR sahib, at the risk of stating the obvious, 1 is not a prime
number, although the she'r in question is absolutely prime!:-)
Regards,
Vijay
UVR
You are right, of course.
Anyway, now that we have your attention, there is that little
matter of the "slip" that needs your clarification. :-)
-UVR.
UVR
Vijay
I thought as much but if one has to explain.....!:-)
UVR
LOL!
So you could just say whether my explanation was
correct or not ... not to mix metaphors, but you could
kill the horse and flog it too all with one stone.
-UVR.
Vijay
LOL!! Liked your mixed metaphor!
Back to the slip. It made you laugh, I think I will leave it at that.
Regards,
Vijay
Raj Kumar
> > aahu-e-taataar-e-man,
> > naaqa-e-sayyaar-e-man
> > aNdak-o-basiyaar-e-man
>
> > in other words, janaab-e-Zafar saahib: ;)
>
> tiriyaak e sang-choor
> qumquma e qareeb o door
> bal k
> buq'a e noor
> ya'ani huzoor e faiz-ganjoor RK saahib:
huzoor, agar aap yahaaN yeh bhi keh dete ---
ai shaa'ir-e-nufoor
naqqaad-e-be-shu'oor
mast-e-mai-e-Ghuroor
begaana-e-tahoor!
to aap ka kyaa bigaRtaa thaa? ;) :)
> > maiN ne aaj --- ba-taareeKh 17 aktuubar ba-vaqt 2:08 pm, KH saahib ke
> > jis Khat ka javaab diyaa tha, voh Khat unhoN ne ba-taareeKh 14
> > aktuubar ba-vaqt 8:48 am likkha tha, JAB-K jo Khat "aap ji" ne likkha
> > tha voh ba-taareeKh 15 aktuubar ba-vaqt 8:59 pm likkha gayaa tha! ab
> > maiN [chooN-k shaa'ir kam hooN aur riyaazii-daan ziyaada] is liye mere
> > hisaab se aap ke Khat ka javaab dene ke liye mere paas abhi bahuuuuut
> > vaqt paRaa hai! :) bal-k LOL
>
> is ke jawaab meN faqat itnaa hi kaafi hai:
>
> kahaaN se laa'oN sabr e Hazrat e Ayyub ai saaqi
> suraahi aaye, mai aaye gi, phir jaam aaye gaa!!!!
vaah, vaa --- kyaa Khoob she'r hai, saahib, go k is ke doosre misre ke
pehle TukRe meiN lafz "gii" chhuT gayaa hai! ;)
> > Ghaur keejiye, huzoor, k maiN ne (eihteyaatan) yahaaN "taa'ir" kahaa
> > hai, "bulbul" naheeN kahaa ---- mabaada-k aap, yeh misr'a paRhte hi,
> > jheNp se jaayeN! ;) bal-k :) bal-k LOL bal-k ROTFL
>
> Khair, mujhe bulbul par bhi koyi etiraaz naheeN hai kyoN k kayi
> ilaaqoN meN, bashamool hamaari taraf, bulbul ko *muzakkar* baandhaa
> jaataa hai. bal k aap hi ke zaamaane kaa aik gaanaa hai:
>
> meraa bulbul so RAHAA hai, shor o Ghul na machaa!!!
aap ne bajaa farmaaya, huzoor, albatta hamaare haaN aek gaana hu'aa
kartaa thaa jis ka yeh she'r "qaabil-e-quote" hai:
eh DaaDii heraa-pherii ae!
ral kaavaaN --- bulbul "gherii" ae!!! ;)
What do you say to that? :)
>> Khair, isi Khushi meN aap ko aik pate ki (maze ki) baat bataa hooN aur
> vo bhi bil-kul muft:
>
> pehle zehn meN ye rakhiye k bulbul ko Farsi meN "hazaar" bhi kehte
> haiN. ab she'r suniye:
>
> bubulaaN har taraf se uTh dauReeN
> dekhne ko use hazaar hazaar!!!
> [Wali]
'fas-klaas' she'r hai, huzoor, aur is zimn meiN Naseer saahib ne bhi
farmaaya hai:
kanaar az zaahidaaN bar giir o be-baak-aanah saaGhar kash
pas az muddat az-iiN shaaKh-i-kuhan baaNg-i-hazaar aamad
Iqbal (tuluu'-i-islaam, baaNg-i-daraa)
yeh alag baat k hamaare bahut se ALUPer-dost is she'r ko samajhne se
qaasir raheN ge! :(
ba-har-haal, is zimn meiN, Khaaksaar ko bhi aek adad she'r yaad aa
rahaa hai (go k shaa'ir ka naam ma'aloom naheeN hai). arz hai
kab naala raa'igaaN gayaa ushshaaq-e-zaar kaa?
gul ko bhi Khaak kar gayaa ronaa HAZAAR kaa!
> > > vaise aik baat kahe baGhair reh naheeN saktaa k is doosre misre meN
> > > lafz pende kaa iste'emaal bahut Khoob hai. 'aam taur par ye bartan
> > > ke
> > > "tale" ko kehte haiN, lekin is kaa aik aur matlab daraKht ki jaR bhi
> > > hai, jo aap ke she'r meN bartaa gayaa hai.
>
> > Frankly speaking, I had no idea that the word 'peNda' has this
> > particular connotation as well, for at least my dictionary doesn't say
> > so! However, if this is REALLY true, then I feel 'doubly blessed'
> > because I used this word (the way I used it) with the 'guarded'
> > consideration that this usage makes sense ------ at least to me!
>
> This is REALLY true, Raj saahib, atleast per "my" dictionary!
>
> AUR isi se wuhi puraani behs lauT ke saamne aa jaati hai k matn ke
> ma'ani mutayyin karne meN manshaa e musannif (authorial intention) ko
> markazi ehmeeyat honi chaahiye yaa naheeN.
>
> ab dekhiye naa, agar aap she'r ki tashreeh bayaan karte to kehte k
> pendaa = talaa; maiN kartaa to kehtaa pendaa = jaR.
"yihii to farq hai ham meN
tu baihraa-var, maiN be-baihraa"! ;) :)
> aur agar jaan ki amaan paa'ooN to arz karooN ko daraKht ko "jaR" se
> ukhaaR kar phenknaa ziyaada "dynamic" aur "visual" image hai, ba-
> nisbat "tale" se ukhaaR kar phenkne ke!
INDEED!
> aur waise bhi, agar aap Ghaur farmaayeN to, daraKht ke pende ko
> "visualize" karnaa thoRaa dushwaar hai, kyoN k wahaaN to jaRoN kaa
> jaal phelaa huvaa hotaa hai. haaN, agar lakRi kaa shehteer zameen meN
> gaRaa hai to wo alag baat hai.
Once again, INDEED!
> > "sar phirii havaa" --------------- Zafar saahib, keeping in mind the
> > origin of this term, shouldn't we say "sir-phirii havaa"?
> > Believe me, I am dying to hear your response to this query!!!
>
> Nice point "sir" ji. maiN ne pehle kabhi is amr par Ghaur naheeN
> kiyaa thaa, lekin aap ki baat meN wazn hai. waaqayi, "sir-phiri"
> ziyaada behtar lagtaa hai, Khaas taur par un logoN ke liye jinheN Urdu
> aur Farsi alfaaz kaa idGhaam pasand naheeN hai.
Thanks for the understanding, Zafar saahib! :)
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Raj Kumar
Sat Pal saahib:
matl'e ki saraahanaa ke liye aur Ghazal ki pazeeraa'ii ke liye maiN
aap ka tah-e-dil se mamnoon hooN!
Ghazal ki lai aur is ki ravaanii aap ko bahut achchhii lagii --- yeh
paRh kar Khaaksaar ko bahut achchhaa lagaa! :)
Raj Kumar
Raj Kumar
> > haaye Allah --- yeh Ravindra saahib bhi kyaa balaa haiN k jinhoN ne
>
> > "de ke dhamkii Daraa diyaa mujh ko"! ;)
janaab-e-UVR saahib:
maiN "buz-dil" to aap ki "dhamkii" se naagaaaaah Dar gayaa --- huzoor,
mujhe yeh ilm naheeN thaa k aap kabhii-kabhaar "sajjan-purush" bhi ho
sakte haiN! ;)
> Raj Kumar saahib,
>
> dekhiye kaisi viDambanaa hai k ab jab ke yeh laRi "shaant"
> ho chuki hai, to mere paas kuchh Khaas likhne ko rah hi
> naheeN gayaa :-)
are miyaaN, isi liye to baRe-booRhoN ne kahaa hai k
"khetoN ko de lo paanii, ab baih rahii hai GaNgaa!
kuchh kar lo nau-javaano, uThtii javaaniyaaN haiN"!!!
magar kyaa kareN, aap kisi ki suneN to naa! ;)
> aap ki Ghazal baRi dilchasp lagee aur Khaas taur par is liye
> k aap ne Naseer saahib ke "farmaa'ish" karte hi ise pesh kar
> diyaa. It was almost like it was a "challenge-response" thing
> going on.
vaaqe'a yeh hai, Ravindra miyaaN, k is Ghazal ke 3-4 ash'aar pehle hi
se ghaRe paRe the ---- aur ab jooN hi Naseer saahib ka "challenge"
hujra-e-Ghareeb meiN dar-aamad hu'aa to aanan-faanan teen-chaar
ash'aar aur ho gaye aur, aaNkh jhapakte hi, Ghazal mukammal ho
gayee!! :)
> mujhe aap ki Ghazal ke prime-numbered ash'aar baaqiyoN ki
> nisbat ziyaada achchhe lage[1]. matle meN sawaal kis/kin se
> kiyaa jaa rahaa hai, is baat ko "nebulous" chhoR denaa baRaa
> dilchasp lagaa. "peNde" waale sh'er par kaafi bahs ho chuki
> hai, magar mujhe yeh naheeN samajh aayaa k yeh lafz (aur
> pahaaRaa) itnaa "rare" kab se ho gayaa? maantaa hooN k
> aise kuchh lafz haiN jo "adabi" halqoN meN kam-kam hi nazar
> aate haiN, lekin since when did language become the exclusive
> preserve of literateurs and poets? Khair. Ghazal kaa maqt'a
> hi mere nazdeek is kaa sab se behtareen sh'er hai -- I thought
> it was, as the expression goes, "rad." :-)
That is GREAT ---- goyaa, aap ko is Ghazal ke "beshtar" ash'aar pasaNd
aaye --- is liye k, ba-fazl-e-Khudaa, hamaare eidaad ke shuroo' meiN
'prime numbers' ki ginti muqaabiltan ziyaada hai! ;)
goyaa, agar yeh Ghazal muqaabiltan lambii hoti to, aap ke paimaane ki
roo se, aap ke pasaNdeeda ash'aar ki kasr (= fraction) kaafi kam ho
jaatii! ;)
ba-har-haal, maqaam-e-shukr hai k aap ko is Ghazal ka matl'a ---
ya'ani-k she'r #1 pasaNd aayaa --- go k "1, for several fundamental
reasons, is NOT regarded as a prime number"!
aur maze ki baat yeh hai k, Khwaab-e-Ghaflat se jaagne ke ba'ad, aap
ne she'r #2 ko bhi qubool-e-Khaatir Thaihraaya --- is liye k, dar-eeN-
asnaa, "kisi riyaazii-daan ne aap ko bataa diyaa k "2, inspite of
being even, is INDEED prime"! ;)
are miyaaN, yadi aap ne is riyaazii-daan se pehle hi se raabitta
qaa'im kiyaa hotaa to kyaa buraa'ii thii? LOL
Khair, yeh to "be-tukii" baateN theeN --- "tuk kii" to yeh hai k meri
is Ghair-ma'amooli Ghazal par aap ke Ghair-ma'amooli ta'assuraat
hamesha ke liye dil-nisheen huye aur Kahaaksaar ko taa-abad aap ka
aabhaari kar gaye!
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
UVR
>
>
> Khair, yeh to "be-tukii" baateN theeN --- "tuk kii" to yeh hai k meri
> is Ghair-ma'amooli Ghazal par aap ke Ghair-ma'amooli ta'assuraat
> hamesha ke liye dil-nisheen huye aur Kahaaksaar ko taa-abad aap ka
> aabhaari kar gaye!
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
ek baat jo maiN apne pichhle Khat meN bhool gaya woh yeh k
is sh'er meN:
taareeki hi taareeki, sannaaTa hi sannaaTa
yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar, murda mira gaaRaa hai
mujhe bhi Amit saahib ki tarah "tanhaai" ziyaada behtar lagaa,
go aap ne lafz ke tabdeel karne ki wazaahat farmaa dee hai.
aur agar aap poochhte haiN k miyaaN yeh baat bhool gaye the
to yaad kaise aa gayi, to jawaaban 'arz hai k Afzal saahib ke
post kiye hue shaa'ir-e-'faroGh' ke is sh'er se:
kunj-e-marqad meN to har tarha se ham Khush haiN, "FaroGh"
Gham agar hai to zaraa sa Gham-e-tanhaaii hai
ma'aloom hotaa hai yeh janaab bhi usi "sannaTe" ke
baashinde haiN jahaaN ke aap haiN. farq hai to shaayad
itnaa hi k aap "idhar ko" haiN to FaroGh saahib thoRaa
"udhar ko" :-)
-UVR.
Raj Kumar
> On Oct 25, 4:45 pm, Raj Kumar <rajkumarq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Khair, yeh to "be-tukii" baateN theeN --- "tuk kii" to yeh hai k meri
> > is Ghair-ma'amooli Ghazal par aap ke Ghair-ma'amooli ta'assuraat
> > hamesha ke liye dil-nisheen huye aur Kahaaksaar ko taa-abad aap ka
> > aabhaari kar gaye!
>
> > Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
>
> ek baat jo maiN apne pichhle Khat meN bhool gaya woh yeh k
> is sh'er meN:
> taareeki hi taareeki, sannaaTa hi sannaaTa
> yaaroN ne kahaaN laa kar, murda mira gaaRaa hai
>
> mujhe bhi Amit saahib ki tarah "tanhaai" ziyaada behtar lagaa,
> go aap ne lafz ke tabdeel karne ki wazaahat farmaa dee hai.
Hmmmmmm --- in other words, it is now "2 against 1"!
janaab, agar aisa hi hai to maiN ba-Khushii "taareekii" ko vaapas
"tanhaa'ii" meiN badal deta hooN --- aaKhir, dono alfaaz haiN to mere
hi! ;)
vaise bhi, Amit saahib ki adaalat-e-'aaliya meiN (meri taraf se dii
gayee) vazaahat, buniyaadi taur par, "tongue-in-cheek" hi to thi! :)
> aur agar aap poochhte haiN k miyaaN yeh baat bhool gaye the
> to yaad kaise aa gayi, to jawaaban 'arz hai k Afzal saahib ke
> post kiye hue shaa'ir-e-'faroGh' ke is sh'er se:
>
> kunj-e-marqad meN to har tarha se ham Khush haiN, "FaroGh"
> Gham agar hai to zaraa sa Gham-e-tanhaaii hai
achchha hu'aa k aap ne apne "maaKhiz-e-ilqaa" ka pata bataa diyaa ---
magar is inkeshaaf se ko'ii numaayaaN farq naheeN paRtaa; is liye k
FaroGh saahib par to qaafiya "taNg" thaa; nateejatan, lafz 'taareekii'
un ki zad se kosoN door thaa! Right?
jab-k Khaaksaar ko apne is she'r meiN aisi ko'ii majboorii naheeN thi
--- bas aek "dubdhaa" si thi k, is maqaam par, yeh kahooN yaa voh?
bil-aaKhir, aap azeezaan-e-ALUP ne (mujh dihaatii ko 'maslihat' ka
sabaq paRhaate huye) meri is "gambheer dubdhaa" ko doo kar diyaa! :)
> ma'aloom hotaa hai yeh janaab bhi usi "sannaTe" ke
> baashinde haiN jahaaN ke aap haiN. farq hai to shaayad
> itnaa hi k aap "idhar ko" haiN to FaroGh saahib thoRaa
> "udhar ko" :-)
are miyaaN, maiN "naa-muraad" us "hadd-e-laa-zavaal" se ziyaada
"idhar" naheeN hooN jitna aap samajh rahe haiN --- vaaqe'a to yeh hai
k maiN Ghareeb "haner-saver" (ya'ani-k, shaam-o-sahar) apni ------
[hone vaalii! ;)] ------
"aamaaj-gaah" meiN TaaNgeN laTkaaye baiThaa rehtaa hooN! :)
R.K.
Raj Kumar
yaaraan-e-mehfil:
yaheeN-kaheeN janaab-e-Naseer saahib ne farmaaya tha k maiN, is laRii
meiN, shaayad "century' lagaane ki soch rahaa hooN ---- magar hu'aa
yeh k maiN Ghareeb to 79 par hi 'out' ho gayaa! :(
Khair, is 'outing' ke dil-shikan mauq'e par zehn meiN vuhi puraana
she'r ubhraa:
nazar lage na kaheeN un ke "husn-e-taihseeN" ko!
yeh log kyooN miri maqbuuliyat pe naalaaN haiN!!! :), bal-k LOL
R.K.
Naseer
muHtaram Raj Kumar Sahib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat.
jii haaN Raj Kumar Sahib, maiN ne 'arz kiyaa thaa kih "lagtaa hai kih
aap bhii century banaane par tule hue haiN":) awr aap us century ko
mukammal bhii kar sakte the agar mujh jaise "akhkhaR" se "chheR-
chhaaR" jaarii rakhte:) lekin afsos, balkih sad afsos kih aap ne
himmat hii haar dii...varnah maiN to aap ko is ma'rke se ham-kanaar
karne ke liye puurii tarH tayyaar thaa! century bhii maah-i-guzashtah
ke dauraan, nah kih saal-i-ravaaN meN:)
mujhe bhii sadmah huaa hai kih aap 79 par "out" ho gae. janaab is meN
aap kisii duusre khilaaRii ko mulzim nahiiN Thahraa sakte...vajh is
kii yih hai kih agar aap is bande kii 14 aktuubar kii posT kaa javaab
dete to usii vaqt aap 80 ke peTe meN aa jaate awr vahaaN se baat aage
bhii baRh saktii thii. balkih 'ain mumkin thaa kih bahut aage baRh
jaatii:) aap apnii posT meN "peR" nah lagaa paane par farmaa rahe the
kih "peR" ko "piR" kii shakl iKHtiyaar karnaa ho gii. nah jaane kyoN,
maiN ne ise "piiR" paRhaa awr is piiR ke mutaabiq hii aap ko javaab
diyaa!!
aap kii maqbuuliyat par naalaaN hoN aap ke dushman!!:) ham to samajhte
haiN kih is gulshan meN aap, Afzal.A.Khan awr Sarwar Sahib jaise
buzurgoN hii kii vajh se ziinat awr raunaq hai. yih ham sab kii KHush-
nasiibii hai. yaqiin maaniye, Raj Kumar Sahib, yih baat maiN puure
KHuluus se kah rahaa huuN. aap jaise daanish-mand mujh jaise kund-zihn
logoN ke liye 'ilm-o-tajrubaat kaa sar-chashmah haiN. ham apne sar-
chashmoN se kaise naalaaN ho sakte haiN?
'ilm ke sar-chashmoN ke silsile meN javaanaan-i-ALUP, ya'nii janaabaan-
i-Zafar-o-UVR SaaHibaan kaa zikr nah karnaa saraasar ziyaadtii ho gii.
aap paaNch goyaa ALUP-nagar ke sutuun haiN.
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Naseer
> 'fas-klaas' she'r hai, huzoor, aur is zimn meiN Naseer saahib ne bhi
> farmaaya hai:
>
> kanaar az zaahidaaN bar giir o be-baak-aanah saaGhar kash
>pas az muddat az-iiN shaaKh-i-kuhan baaNg-i-hazaar aamad
> Iqbal (tuluu'-i-islaam, baaNg-i-daraa)
>
> yeh alag baat k hamaare bahut se ALUPer-dost is she'r ko samajhne se
> qaasir raheN ge! :(
zaahidoN kaa daaman chhoR awr niDar ho ke pii sharaab
baRii der ke ba'd is puraanii shaaKh se bulbul kii aavaaz aaii hai
Naseer