Three Shirts of Joseph
Naseer
In a recent thread entitled "Railway Station", Anil Sahib has enquired
about the Urdu word "qamiis" (shirt قمیص ) . I thought I would quote
an Urdu shi'r incorporating this word but strangely enough there don't
seem to be many ash'aar around for this word. At least I could n't
think of any nor could I find any. So I have decided to make my reply
to Anil Sahib a little more interesting than a mere explanation of the
word.
The word قمیص is of Arabic origins and is one of few words for shirt
in Urdu. Others are kurtaa, pairaahan etc. Some people erroneously
pronounce it as kamiiz but, as I have indicated, the correct word is
قمیص . This word is used several times in a Qur'anic chapter (12 )
named after prophet Joseph (Yusuf 'alaihi_ssalaam), one of twelve sons
of prophet Jacob (peace be upon him). Yusuf and his younger brother
Binyamin (Benjamin) 's mother is different from the other ten
brothers' mother. There is a perception amongst these older step
brothers that their father seems to have a special fondness for Joseph
and Benjamin. Their jealousy leads them to hatch a wicked plan to
murder Joseph.One of them advised the rest that it would be better if
he were thrown in a well. A passing caravan is bound to pick him up
and take him away. They asked their father to let him go with them so
that they can all play together and promised to look after him well.
Jacob had his doubts about their sincerity and told them he feared a
wolf might devour him whilst their attention was elsewhere. They made
strong promises to guard him and consequently Jacob reluctantly
allowed Joseph to go with them.
After having thrown him in a well, they returned home crying crocodile
tears carrying his shirt besmeared with false blood.
12:19 wa jaa'uu 'alaa qamisihi bidamin kazibin ....
The boy Joseph is picked up by a passing caravan and taken to Egypt
and sold. There he grew up in the household of his master and reached
maturity. As you will no doubt know, Joseph was a very handsome man.
So much so that the mistress of this rich household wished to seduce
him. He attempted to get away from her and she chased after him,
grabbing his shirt from the back and tearing it.
12:25 wa_stabtaqa-lbaaba wa qaddat qamiisahu...
And they both raced to the door and she tore his shirt from the
back...
For this alleged "assault", he was put in prison...
In this lengthy period of being separated from his son, Jacob
literally cried his eyes out and became blind. Joseph's brothers also
ended up in Egypt in search of food and Joseph by then had managed to
get out of prison through his God-given ability to interpret dreams.
He finds out about the state of his father through them and tells
them...
12:93 idhhabuu bi-qamiisii haadhaa fa-alquuhu 'alaa wajhi abii
ya'tii basiir-an...
Go with this shirt of mine and cast it over my father's face and he
will see again..
So, we have 1) the blood stained shirt 2) the torn shirt and 3) the
shirt which returned Jacob's eyesight.
Rudaki, a Persian poet preceding Firdausi wrote a short poem called,
"Three Shirts of Joseph". Here is the Farsi version (and I am not sure
if I have transcribed it correctly) with an English translation by
Dr.Iraj Bashiri.
nigaariinaa, shiniidastam kih gaah-i-miHnat-o-raaHat
sih pairahan salab buudast Yuusuf raa ba-'umr andar
yake az kaid shud pur-KhuuN, duvvum shud chaak az tuhmat
sivvum Ya'quub raa az b-ash raushan gasht chashm-i-tar
ruKham maanad ba-daaN avval, dilam maanad ba-daaN saanii
nasiib-i-man shavad dar vasl aaN pairahan-i-digar
Dearest. I have heard that during his toil and comfort,
Altogether, Joseph had three shirts to his name.
One was bloodied by mischief, the other torn by slander,
The third returned sight to the tearful eyes of Jacob.
My face resembles the first, my heart the second,
Only if in reunion, would I be blessed with the third.
................................................................................................
Naseer
Naseer
>
> Naseer
A few couplets related to Joseph: Perhaps other ALUPers might care to
join in with suitable connected ash'aar.
Here are a couple linked to Jacob's blindness.
nah chhoRii Hazrat-i-Yuusuf ne yaaN bhii Khaanah-aaraa'ii
safedii diidah-i-Ya'quub kii phirtii hai zindaaN par
qaid meN Ya'quub ne lii go nah Yuusuf kii Khabar
lekin aaNkheN rauzan-i-diivaar-i-zindaaN ho ga'iiN
Here is one talking about "zanaan-i-Misr" (the women of Egypt),
ZulaiKhaa (the aristrocratic lady who attempted to seduce Joseph) and
maah-i-Kan'aaN (the moon of Canaan, Joseph)
sab raqiiboN se huuN naa-Khush par zanaan-i-Misr se
hai ZulaiKhaa Khush kih maHv-i-maah-i-Kan'aaN ho ga'iiN
12: 30 Some woman of the city said, "The governor's wife is trying to
seduce her slave! Love for him consumes her heart! It is clear to us
that she has gone astray.
12:31 When she [ZulaiKhaa] heard their malicious talk, she prepared a
banquet and sent for them, giving each of them a knife. She said to
Joseph, "Come out and show yourself to them!" and when the women saw
him, they were stunned by his beauty, and cut their hands, exclaiming,
"Great God! He can not be mortal! He must be a precious angel!"
{12:30-12:31 translation from , The Qur'an: A New Translation by
M.A.S. Abdel Haleem}
Naseer
nagesh
And one more (possibly with errors):
choDiye yusuf-e gumgashtaa ki kya baat kareN
shiddat-e shauq-e zuleikha na tumheN hai na mujhe
And I am not suggesting a change of topic:-)
Nagesh
Naseer
> choDiye yusuf-e gumgashtaa ki kya baat kareN
> shiddat-e shauq-e zuleikha na tumheN hai na mujhe
>
> And I am not suggesting a change of topic:-)
You could be but you are not!
dii mire bhaa'ii ko Haq ne az sar-i-nau zindagii
Miirzaa Yuusuf hai Ghalib, Yuusuf-i-saanii mujhe
.....................................................................................................................
Naseer
Munh Maarvi
> Dear ALUPers, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> In a recent thread entitled "Railway Station", Anil Sahib has enquired
> about the Urdu word "qamiis" (shirt قمیص ) . I thought I would quote
> an Urdu shi'r incorporating this word but strangely enough there don't
> seem to be many ash'aar around for this word. At least I could n't
> think of any nor could I find any. So I have decided to make my reply
> to Anil Sahib a little more interesting than a mere explanation of the
> word.
>
> The word قمیص is of Arabic origins and is one of few words for shirt
> in Urdu. Others are kurtaa, pairaahan etc. Some people erroneously
I would say that by far the more common pronunciation and I am tempted
to say almost universal pronunciation is kameez (at least in the areas
that I have lived in:)
It is also interesting in another context that we talked about a while
back. While mostly used as a feminine it is sometimes used as a
masculine. Infact the only word that I have looked up in my version of
the Fairoz ul lughaat which makes a very specific mention of this
aspect (usually it would only say muzukkar, maunus if both are valid).
> ................................................................................................
>
> Naseer
arahim
> On Apr 28, 1:25 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear ALUPers, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> > In a recent thread entitled "Railway Station", Anil Sahib has enquired
> > about the Urdu word "qamiis" (shirt قمیص ) . I thought I would quote
> > an Urdu shi'r incorporating this word but strangely enough there don't
> > seem to be many ash'aar around for this word. At least I could n't
> > think of any nor could I find any. So I have decided to make my reply
> > to Anil Sahib a little more interesting than a mere explanation of the
> > word.
>
> > The word قمیص is of Arabic origins and is one of few words for shirt
> > in Urdu. Others are kurtaa, pairaahan etc. Some people erroneously
>
> I would say that by far the more common pronunciation and I am tempted
> to say almost universal pronunciation is kameez (at least in the areas
> that I have lived in:)
>
Just to clarify further...newer dictionaries (at least some) allow the
word with a zowad at the end so in some sense it is now accepted as a
valid word/pronunciation perhaps through common usage.
> > Naseer- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
arahim
> On Apr 29, 8:40 am, Munh Maarvi <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 1:25 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Dear ALUPers, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> > > In a recent thread entitled "Railway Station", Anil Sahib has enquired
> > > about the Urdu word "qamiis" (shirt قمیص ) . I thought I would quote
> > > an Urdu shi'r incorporating this word but strangely enough there don't
> > > seem to be many ash'aar around for this word. At least I could n't
> > > think of any nor could I find any. So I have decided to make my reply
> > > to Anil Sahib a little more interesting than a mere explanation of the
> > > word.
>
> > > The word قمیص is of Arabic origins and is one of few words for shirt
> > > in Urdu. Others are kurtaa, pairaahan etc. Some people erroneously
>
> > I would say that by far the more common pronunciation and I am tempted
> > to say almost universal pronunciation is kameez (at least in the areas
> > that I have lived in:)
>
> Just to clarify further...newer dictionaries (at least some) allow the
> word with a zowad at the end so in some sense it is now accepted as a
> valid word/pronunciation perhaps through common usage.
>
Hmmm infact this dictionary has completely dispensed with the sowad
spelling
http://www.iqbalcyberlibrary.net/Urdu-Books/969-416-218-001/p0348.php
and writes it as muzakkar only (which is odd since I have by large
heard it as maunus)
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Naseer
Could you post a link of any of these new dictionaries please. Also,
do you have access to Feroz-ul-Lughaat? What does this dictionary say
about قمیص?
Secondly, why is it being written with a zwaad? Why not with a zaal,
ze or zo'e? What's the link between a swaad and a zwaad sound? Have
you seen any prose or poetry with قمیض ?
Finally, which dictionary gives it as a masculine noun?
Naseer
PS
Do you know any ash'aar with قمیص or Joseph/Jacob within them?
arahim
> Atif Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> Could you post a link of any of these new dictionaries please. Also,
> do you have access to Feroz-ul-Lughaat? What does this dictionary say
> about قمیص?
>
My edition of fairoz has the swaad version only and says mostly
written as maunus but some experts (I don't remember the exact word
that was used but will look it up) write it as muzakkar.
However, the link to the dictionary I posted has only a version with
zwaad and writes it as muzukkar.
Platts says that the z ending is vulgar.
Here is a dictionary that allows both spelling
http://urduseek.com/u?efilter=%D9%82%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B6&find=Find&R1=Urdu&sCriteria=2
This dictionary goes with swaad. For poetry I guess look at kuliyaat e
mir (at least that is what this dictionary suggests)
http://oud.crulp.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=13241
So take your pick:)
> Secondly, why is it being written with a zwaad? Why not with a zaal,
> ze or zo'e? What's the link between a swaad and a zwaad sound? Have
> you seen any prose or poetry with قمیض ?
>
I haven't "read" Urdu in a long time:) but can speculate only that I
probably have since I do definitely pronounce it as kameez:) and it
never bothered me that it does not always have that spelling. So take
it as you will.
> Finally, which dictionary gives it as a masculine noun?
>
http://www.iqbalcyberlibrary.net/Urdu-Books/969-416-218-001/p0348.php
And fairoz also accepts it but says it is the less used option.
arahim
>
> Could you post a link of any of these new dictionaries please. Also,
> do you have access to Feroz-ul-Lughaat? What does this dictionary say
> about قمیص?
>
> Secondly, why is it being written with a zwaad? Why not with a zaal,
> ze or zo'e? What's the link between a swaad and a zwaad sound? Have
> you seen any prose or poetry with قمیض ?
>
Not quite Urdu but here you go:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR8rf8YNuQU
Naseer
The first link ( "Urduseek.com") can hardly be called "mustanad". The
second dictionary is the one Jamil Sahib has been talking about in his
recent posts. It of course gives the correct word "qamiis". The third
one (iqbalcyberlibrary) gives the word "qamiiz" and gives it the
masculine gender. I would suggest this to be highly questionable on
both counts.As for "qamiiz terii kaalii", I am well aware of this
Punjabi song. I pronounce the word as "qamiiz" too, but only in
Punjabi. It seems to me, that the word in Urdu is still qamiis.
Naseer
arahim
Not in how it is spoken at least by the vast majority:) Its the
February/Febuary, of/ov question I suppose but for written here is how
google translates it
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT&q=urdu%20dictionary%20iqbal%20cyber#en|ur|shirt
> Naseer
arahim
>
>
to clarify the swaad option is also present but you have to pick it.
The default is set to zwaad.
Vijay
This is very interesting. My dictionary, By Abdul Haq, like Platts,
allows qamiiz as a colloquial usage, but doesn't spell it.
Naseer sahib, how DO YOU spell it in shahmukhi, if I may ask? Would
you use zua'ad, or an alternative 'z' sound? And why?
Thanks,
Vijay
arahim
arahim
> On Apr 29, 11:11 am, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Atif Sahib, aadaab.
>
> > The first link ( "Urduseek.com") can hardly be called "mustanad". The
> > second dictionary is the one Jamil Sahib has been talking about in his
> > recent posts. It of course gives the correct word "qamiis". The third
> > one (iqbalcyberlibrary) gives the word "qamiiz" and gives it the
> > masculine gender. I would suggest this to be highly questionable on
> > both counts.As for "qamiiz terii kaalii", I am well aware of this
> > Punjabi song. I pronounce the word as "qamiiz" too, but only in
> > Punjabi. It seems to me, that the word in Urdu is still qamiis.
>
>
>
http://www.fazleebooks.com/book/recipedetail.aspx?id=BO-42529
arahim
> On Apr 29, 12:13 pm, arahim <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 29, 11:11 am, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Atif Sahib, aadaab.
>
> > > The first link ( "Urduseek.com") can hardly be called "mustanad". The
> > > second dictionary is the one Jamil Sahib has been talking about in his
> > > recent posts. It of course gives the correct word "qamiis". The third
> > > one (iqbalcyberlibrary) gives the word "qamiiz" and gives it the
> > > masculine gender. I would suggest this to be highly questionable on
> > > both counts.As for "qamiiz terii kaalii", I am well aware of this
> > > Punjabi song. I pronounce the word as "qamiiz" too, but only in
> > > Punjabi. It seems to me, that the word in Urdu is still qamiis.
>
> > This should clinch it. Very commonly usedhttp://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/UrduLife?domains=www.urdulife...
>
> http://www.fazleebooks.com/book/recipedetail.aspx?id=BO-42529
>
>
>
“شلوار کا لٹھا اور قمیض کی بوسکی۔۔۔میں پہلے ہی کہہ رہا تھا کہ کوئی
غلطی ہو گئی ہے۔“
ibne safi wrote over a long time (and I still have a copy of this
one:). This was probably written in the 50s or 60s at the latest 70s I
would guess.
Though ibne safi is not known for his poetry he has some really good
poems. One that many have heard sung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkJjVdxNBzs
>
>
>
> > > Naseer- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Naseer
With due respect, by presenting numerous links from the internet one
can not be certain of the authencity of the material being presented.
We know for example that amongst the dictionaries written by the
Britishers, Platts is considered the most reliable and thorough. You
have already indicated that it gives قمیص as the first choice and
qamiiz is given as "vulgar". In fact it gives a third "vulgar"
possibility "kamiij".
Vijay Sahib has quoted "Baaba-i-Urdu"'s dictionary where "qamiis" is
the first choice and "qamiiz" is the "colloquial" alternative.
Zafar Sahib (you probably don't know about this gentleman but Vijay
Sahib does) will tell you that amongst the Urdu-Urdu dictionaries of
manageable size, "Farhabg-i-Asifiyah" and "Nur-ul-Lughaat" are the
most trustworthy. The link which you have given where the word
"qamiiz" is given as "muzakkar" in fact is the "digitalized" version
of the Farhang-i-Asifiyah! However, I have checked in the original and
that gives the word as قمیص! Clearly qamiiz is an error. Nur-ul-
Lughaat also gives it as قمیص and adds that "Jaliil-o-Jalaal** ne
muzakkar likhaa hai. bol-chaal meN beshtar taaniis ke saath hai.
(fiqrah) aap sab kii qamiiseN tayyaar ho ga'iiN." It also adds "'avaam
qamiiz* bolte haiN".
The point is that the poetry being posted and discussed in this
Newsgroup is not "vulgar", "colloquial" or "'aam bol-chaal". On the
contrary, it is based on the literary language and in the literary
language, the word is قمیص .
* Vijay Sahib, Nur-ul-Lughaat gives qamiiz as قمیز . I don't write
Shahmukhi but if I were to write "qamiiz terii kaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii,
nii sohNRe phullaaN vaalii", I would write it as کمیز . Why?
1) There is no need tp preserve the typically Arabic consonants
because the word has changed totally from its original قمیص . The
consonant I have in mind is the letter qaaf.
2) There is no need to write it with a zwaad because "qamiiz" is the
disfigured pronunciation of the word and writing it with a zwaad would
be totally illogical. I can see why people would write it with a
zwaad. Just to preserve the shape!
3) The most accurate "z" sound, in the circumstances would be a ze and
not a zaal, zwaad or zo'e.
I hope this answers your queries.
Naseer
arahim
There is no doubt that from arabic came the swaad ending but languages
change words to their own just as punjabi has done (that you agree
with). At this point I would say a large (probably larger) portion of
those who speak Urdu in daily life use kameez. As to why this spelling
or that I would say it was again probably just the change of one dot
from the original which was easier. I would not be surprised to see
kaf meem yay zay if it is there. Perhaps you won't find it without the
vulgar connotation a long time back but certainly over the last many
many decades this is a respectable version:)
> Naseer
Naseer
On Apr 29, 9:49 pm, arahim <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There is no doubt that from arabic came the swaad ending but languages
> change words to their own just as punjabi has done (that you agree
> with). At this point I would say a large (probably larger) portion of
> those who speak Urdu in daily life use kameez. As to why this spelling
> or that I would say it was again probably just the change of one dot
> from the original which was easier. I would not be surprised to see
> kaf meem yay zay if it is there. Perhaps you won't find it without the
> vulgar connotation a long time back but certainly over the last many
> many decades this is a respectable version:)
I am not an Urdu speaker. My mother-tongue is Punjabi. The word
"vulgar" is not mine but Platts". However, I don't believe he actually
means it in the sense that most people would take the meaning. I
believe he means "colloquial" or " 'aam bol-chaal". If qamiiz is being
used by the best of writers (in prose and poetry), then I don't see
any problem with it. I don't know how common it is amongst Urdu
speakers but we Punjabis pronounce the word as "kamiiz" in Pakistan
and possibly "kamiij" across the border in Indian Punjab. But, having
said all this, as the dictionaries of repute have indicated, the word
in literary "chaste" *Urdu* is qamiis. Perhaps Afzal Sahib might be
able to shed some light on this matter.
I don't quite follow how the word is easier with an additional dot. I
would have thought both qamiis and qamiiz are equally easy.
Naseer
arahim
> Atif Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> On Apr 29, 9:49 pm, arahim <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is no doubt that from arabic came the swaad ending but languages
> > change words to their own just as punjabi has done (that you agree
> > with). At this point I would say a large (probably larger) portion of
> > those who speak Urdu in daily life use kameez. As to why this spelling
> > or that I would say it was again probably just the change of one dot
> > from the original which was easier. I would not be surprised to see
> > kaf meem yay zay if it is there. Perhaps you won't find it without the
> > vulgar connotation a long time back but certainly over the last many
> > many decades this is a respectable version:)
>
> I am not an Urdu speaker. My mother-tongue is Punjabi. The word
> "vulgar" is not mine but Platts". However, I don't believe he actually
> means it in the sense that most people would take the meaning. I
> believe he means "colloquial" or " 'aam bol-chaal". If qamiiz is being
This is the usual meaning that is why :) was there.
> used by the best of writers (in prose and poetry), then I don't see
> any problem with it. I don't know how common it is amongst Urdu
> speakers but we Punjabis pronounce the word as "kamiiz" in Pakistan
> and possibly "kamiij" across the border in Indian Punjab. But, having
> said all this, as the dictionaries of repute have indicated, the word
> in literary "chaste" *Urdu* is qamiis. Perhaps Afzal Sahib might be
> able to shed some light on this matter.
>
The issue is when that particular edition was published. No doubt the
"older" versions have swaad. Usually the more "mustanad" the
dictionary the later it adopts changes in language. So will have to
look at fairly recent editions if they exist.
> I don't quite follow how the word is easier with an additional dot. I
> would have thought both qamiis and qamiiz are equally easy.
>
I meant the transition from kamees to kameez only required an
additional dot:) Spelling it completely differently would be ok but
would require a complete overhaul of spelling. So the transition in
spelling to match pronuncition was easier going to zwaad.
> Naseer
arahim
http://search.jang.com.pk/details.asp?nid=307996
arahim
>
> > I don't quite follow how the word is easier with an additional dot. I
> > would have thought both qamiis and qamiiz are equally easy.
>
>
arahim
Certainly the reputable news papers have used the zwaad version.
Below are some literary links
manto's usage (multiple)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B6+%D9%85%D9%86%D9%B9%D9%88&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
Shafiqur rehman's usage
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B6+%D8%B4%D9%81%DB%8C%D9%82+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
mushtaq ahmad yousafi
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B6+%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%81%DB%8C&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
Ahmad Nadeem Qasmi
http://forum.urduworld.com/f188/%D9%82%D9%8F%D9%84%DB%8C-%DB%94-%D8%A7%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF-%D9%86%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%85-%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85%DB%8C-22505/
> Naseer
arahim
>
> Shafiqur rehman's usagehttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB...
>
> mushtaq ahmad yousafihttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB...
>
> Ashfaq Ahmadhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB...
>
> Bano Qudsiyahttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1123&bih=648&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB...
>
> Ahmad Nadeem Qasmihttp://forum.urduworld.com/f188/%D9%82%D9%8F%D9%84%DB%8C-%DB%94-%D8%A...
>
Faiz Ahmad faiz (Usage in a poem)
مجھ کو شکوہ ہے مرے بھائی کہ تم جانے ہوۓ
لے گئے ساتھ مری عمرِ گزشتہ کی کتاب
اس میں تو میری بہت قیمتی تصویریں تھیں
اس میں بچپن تھا مرا، اور مرا عہدِ شباب
اس کے بدلے مجھے تم دے گئے جاتے جاتے
اپنے غم کا یہ دمکتا ہوا خوں رنگ گلاب
کیا کروں بھائی ، یہ اعزاز میں کیونکر پہنوں
مجھ سے لے لو مری سب چاک قمیضوں کا حساب
آخری بار ہے، لو مان لو اک یہ بھی سوال
آج تک تم سے میں لوٹا نہیں مایوسِ جواب
آ کے لے جاؤ تم اپنا یہ دمکتا ہوا پھول
مجھ کو لوٹا دو مری عمرِ گزشتہ کی کتاب
http://pakistanica.com/writers/faiz/noha-2/
>
>
> > Naseer- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Vijay
Argument seems to be settling in favour of 'qamiiz'. 'qamiis' may be
'chaste', but it perhaps also is archaic. Atif sahib has flooded us
with references from both prose and poetry of the current usage of
this word as 'qamiiz'. As he (also) stated, correctly in my view, that
modern editions of the classic dictionaries will most likley include
'qamiiz' as a legitimate word, as do the modern Urdu dictionaries.
Unless there are instances of use of the word as 'qamiis' in modern
Urdu (say going back to Faiz), we should afford 'qamiiz' the preferred
status. IMO.
As it is, Anil sahib's Railway Station doesn't pretend to be in
'chaste' Urdu; so he should definitely be allowed 'qamiiz' as a
legitimate usage.
Naseer sahib, just out of interest, you state that Panjabi is your
mother tongue. What script do you use to transcribe it?
Best,
Vijay
Naseer
Vijay Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
I was just about to respond to Atif Sahib's relentless "bombardment"
of information when your reply suddenly appeared.
I think you are being a touch hasty with your judgment. I respect Atif
Sahib putting all the time and effort in his searches and this is
really commendable. However, none of the sources quoted could be
classed "mustanad' and even if people like Ibn-i-Safi are reliable and
writers of good Urdu, we don't know if they have been quoted correctly
or incorrectly. What I am suggesting is that the fault could be with
the "inputters of information". The dictionaries with first choice as
qamiiz are not well known respected ones.
Atif Sahib has quoted a nazm by Faiz. My copy of "NusKhahaa-i-vafaa"
is not easily accessible. I believe you have a copy. Could you confirm
for me if Faiz has used the word "qamiizoN". My personal instinct is
that the word he has used is qamiisoN. I would certainly have noticed
this because I have read this poem in my copy too.
Anil Sahib can write "kamiij" if he wishes. And until it is proven
without any shadow of doubt that "qamiiz" has been replaced even in
the writings of reputable authors, in my book it will remain as
qamiis!;- And if it turns out to be the case that it is "qamiiz", I
will accept it gracefully and go into a coma!:-)
I have never written Punjabi as a matter of corse. But if I had to
write it, I could write it in Shahmukhi, Gurmukhi, Devanagri or Roman!
Naseer
Naseer
> Argument seems to be settling in favour of 'qamiiz'. 'qamiis' may be
> 'chaste', but it perhaps also is archaic. Atif sahib has flooded us
> with references from both prose and poetry of the current usage of
> this word as 'qamiiz'. As he (also) stated, correctly in my view, that
> modern editions of the classic dictionaries will most likley include
> 'qamiiz' as a legitimate word, as do the modern Urdu dictionaries.
Vijay Sahib. Couple of points I forgot to make. The word "archaic" has
connotations of something being centuries old if not older. I would
n't consider myself as being "old" [yet] and all the time that I have
been reading Urdu prose and poetry, NOT ONCE have I come across the
word "qamiiz" on printed paper! Have you? Has anyone else? In the
electronic media of the internet, it seems that anything goes.
I have not come across any modern editions of "Classic dictionaries".
The "modern edition" of Farhang-i-Asifiya, IMHO was nothing more than
a typo, because I have access to the original where the word is indeed
qamiis on that very page being shown on the internet variety. It seems
that the dictionary which Jamil Sahib has brought to our attention,
came out only in 2006. Surely, this is modern enough is n't it? It is
a very thorough dictionary giving first time usages in prose and
poetry, pronunciation and alternatives.
http://oud.crulp.org/oud/default.aspx#
It gives three examples from 1914-1987 and mentions first time usage
by Miir (1810). I have no doubt the word qamiis will be found in
writings older than 1810 and newer than 1987. Is n't it strange that
this dictionary decides not to include any alternatives for qamiis?
http://oud.crulp.org/oud/ViewWord.aspx?refid=13241
Naseer
Munh Maarvi
This book was written probably around '56 (my guess). I do have a much
later reprint (but from the writers own publication house). It is
written with zwaad and the word appears many, many times.
> the "inputters of information". The dictionaries with first choice as
> qamiiz are not well known respected ones.
>
> Atif Sahib has quoted a nazm by Faiz. My copy of "NusKhahaa-i-vafaa"
> is not easily accessible. I believe you have a copy. Could you confirm
> for me if Faiz has used the word "qamiizoN". My personal instinct is
> that the word he has used is qamiisoN. I would certainly have noticed
> this because I have read this poem in my copy too.
>
In my copy of the nuskha the word is written with a swaad and the poem
itself is from '52.
> Anil Sahib can write "kamiij" if he wishes. And until it is proven
> without any shadow of doubt that "qamiiz" has been replaced even in
> the writings of reputable authors, in my book it will remain as
> qamiis!;- And if it turns out to be the case that it is "qamiiz", I
> will accept it gracefully and go into a coma!:-)
>
The newspapers editorials hopefully are checked by their editors.
> I have never written Punjabi as a matter of corse. But if I had to
> write it, I could write it in Shahmukhi, Gurmukhi, Devanagri or Roman!
>
Munh Maarvi
Actually this dictionary has a lot of missing (not too uncommon) words
(or did) when I first looked at it during the muzakkar and maunus
thread.
> http://oud.crulp.org/oud/ViewWord.aspx?refid=13241
>
> Naseer
Vijay
Naseer sahib, my edition of NusKha (Fariid Book Depot, Delhi, 1997)
has it as 'qamiisoN'!
So where do we go from here? From what Atif sahib has posted, many (if
not most) of the Urdu print and web papers seem to be going with
'qamiiz'. Surely, they can't all be mistaken? I will eagerly await
other ALUPers responses.
Vijay
Naseer
We don't need to go anywhere Vijay Sahib. Faiz is renowned for his
"chaste" Urdu. His language is not archaic. He only died in 1984.
If I may be so bold to suggest one thing. Atif Sahib's (re) search was
a tad selective. If you type three words on the net in Urdu, namely
قمیص قمیصیں قمیصوں you will get, surprise surprise, results for
the same authors using these words. This is why I am saying that the
fault lies with the inputters of information. Even if the whole of the
web was covered with قمیض قمیضیں قمیضوں I will still go along with
Faiz.
قمیص قمیصیں قمیصوں
قمیض قمیضیں قمیضوں
Naseer
arahim
Isn't that being a tad too selective:) The poem is from 52 by the way.
> If I may be so bold to suggest one thing. Atif Sahib's (re) search was
> a tad selective. If you type three words on the net in Urdu, namely
> قمیص قمیصیں قمیصوں you will get, surprise surprise, results for
> the same authors using these words. This is why I am saying that the
> fault lies with the inputters of information. Even if the whole of the
> web was covered with قمیض قمیضیں قمیضوں I will still go along with
> Faiz.
>
> قمیص قمیصیں قمیصوں
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%B5+++%D9%82%D9%8...
>
> قمیض قمیضیں قمیضوں
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1024&bih=656&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB...
Naseer
sea of red herrings and move to safer waters with our قمیصیں still
dry!!
Tuk diidah-i-taHqiiq se tuu dekh ZulaiKhaa
har chaah meN aataa hai nazar Yuusuf-i-saanii
Saudaa
Zoya
What a discussion!!
I would like to put this on the record: I know it should be 'qamiis',
personally I have always said 'qamiiz', but on my side of Punjab, I
have usually heard 'kamiiz' (Vijay sahib can probably relate to this)!
But the main reason I am in this thread, not long ago I had heard an
absolutely brilliant sh'er on this word from a friend, but
unfortunately did not write it down. I even called my friend to see if
he remembered the 'sh'er or at least the name of the poet, he doesn't.
Here is what I can recall, and it is probably pretty close to the
original:
bikhar chuka hai badan phir bhii nahiiN TuuTe haiN
baTan qamiiz pe ab tak tire lagaaye hue
Amazing thought, no?
Maybe in my next post I'll quote some ashaar on Yusuf-o-Zulakha,
because I don't think I'll be able to recall another one on qamiiz!
( Naseer bhai, I just can't bring myself to say/write 'qamiis', so
just indulge me, please?! :)
__Zoya
P.S. Oh and while we are at it, should we settle down the shalwaar/
salwaar controversy too?! :) :)
Zafar
> baTan qamiiz pe ab tak tire lagaaye hue
bahut a'alaa! I know you have been blessed with an amazing memory,
but could the first misra' be:
bikhar chukaa hai badan phir bhi wo naheeN TooTe?
Yusuf-ZulaiKha-qamees par aik she'r:
munsif agar banaa hai to sab ko gawaah rakh
insaaf hai to meraa phaTaa pairhan bhi laa
aadaab arz hai,
Zafar
Naseer
Thank you for your interest in this thread.
On Apr 30, 6:56 pm, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> What a discussion!!
>
> I would like to put this on the record: I know it should be 'qamiis',
> personally I have always said 'qamiiz', but on my side of Punjab, I
> have usually heard 'kamiiz' (Vijay sahib can probably relate to this)!
> Maybe in my next post I'll quote some ashaar on Yusuf-o-Zulakha,
> because I don't think I'll be able to recall another one on qamiiz!
> ( Naseer bhai, I just can't bring myself to say/write 'qamiis', so
> just indulge me, please?! :)
This is rather strange! You say you *know* the correct word is
"qamiis". You also know that at least Faiz has used this word (albeit
in the plural non-nominative case). Then why can't you say or write
the correct word? Would you read the word "qamiizoN" when you are
reciting his poem? Surely not! har chiiz kii ek Had hotii hai:-)
> But the main reason I am in this thread, not long ago I had heard an
> absolutely brilliant sh'er on this word from a friend, but
> unfortunately did not write it down. I even called my friend to see if
> he remembered the 'sh'er or at least the name of the poet, he doesn't.
> Here is what I can recall, and it is probably pretty close to the
> original:
>
> bikhar chuka hai badan phir bhii nahiiN TuuTe haiN
> baTan qamiiz pe ab tak tire lagaaye hue
>
> Amazing thought, no?
Zoya Sahiba, dar asl baat yih hai kih un dinoN dhaagaa baRaa mazbuut
hotaa thaa. insaaN khud "udhaR" jaataa thaa lekin "biiRe" apnii jagah
se nahiiN hilte the. ab to buTan mashiinii lage hote haiN. kyaa kiije?
> P.S. Oh and while we are at it, should we settle down the shalwaar/
> salwaar controversy too?! :) :)
yih baat bhii mere zihn meN aa'ii thii. lekin maiN ne sochaa kih
qamiis gale meN phaNsii hu'ii hai is liye shalvaar kii baat nahiiN
chheRnii chaahiye!
vaise ho saktaa hai kih qamiiz Urdu bolne vaaloN tak phail ga'ii ho.
maiN kuchh kah nahiiN saktaa. lekin mere Khayaal meN yih qamiiz/kamiiz
ham PanjabiyoN kii saazish hai!:-) saath hii "shalvaar" kii shakl bhii
bigaaR dii hai. Or should I say "sakl" when shalvaar has been changed
to "salvaar" by us? By the way, there is a well known short story by
Sa'aadat Hassan Manto called "Kaalii Shalvaar". So in conclusion, in
Urdu, both qamiis and shalvaar are still intact. Thank God!:-)
Naseer
Vijay
>
> قمیض قمیضیں قمیضوں
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1024&bih=656&q=%D9%82%D9%85%DB...
>
> Naseer
I am with you on this one Naseer sahib. I had put Faiz as 'the
determinant' and have now seen the word spelt 'qamiisoN' with my own
eyes in my own book of his NusKha. So I concur that 'qamiis' is the
fasiih usage. I would, nevertheless, put the usage of 'qamiiz' in
modern day Urdu a little above mere 'red herring'. It seems that the
usage of this word in its colloquial form has gained currency.
Best regards,
Vijay
Zoya
> > bikhar chuka hai badan phir bhii nahiiN TuuTe haiN
> > baTan qamiiz pe ab tak tire lagaaye hue
>
> bahut a'alaa! I know you have been blessed with an amazing memory,
> but could the first misra' be:
>
> bikhar chukaa hai badan phir bhi wo naheeN TooTe?
>
> aadaab arz hai,
>
> Zafar
As always, Zaf sahib to the rescue! :)
I think you may be right on the mark, first misra definitely does
sound better this way.
Thanks, and bless you.
__Zoya
arahim
Ab Naseer sahab likhay huay lafz per israar kar rahay hain:) to Bano
Qudisa ki shorts kay collection Baz Gusht main Nilofar main lafz
qameez aik say ziada(h) baar yoon hi likha gaya hai. Ab is say aagay
to mujhay storage say apni puranee kitaabain hi nikalwani parhain
gi:)
Bahar mairee taraf say khulaasa(h) ye(h):
1. Yaqinan aik waqt main qamees he raij ul waqt tha.
2. Ab kam az kam kai ilaqon main likhnay parhnay main bhi qmeez hi
istaimal hota hai. Go aisay ilaqay ya log zaroor hain jo qamees
likhain gay.
3. Jo log kameez boltay hain wo(h) ziada tar likhay huay qamees ko bhi
qameez he parhtay hain. Lafz ko aik tarah likhna aur doosri tarah
bolna koi aisee anokhi cheese bhi nahin. Angrezi main to yaqinan
nahin. It would be inetresting to see if a version of Faiz's
recitation exists. And how the writers are pronouncing it today.
4. Aaj kal kay zamaanay main to itnay video maujuud hain keh kai
adeebon ka kaheen na kaheen is lafz ka istaimal aur pronunciation bhi
sunai day jaanaa chahiyay. Bulkeh ye(h) sha'iad yeh bhi andaza day
ja'ay keh kab ye(h) basaat ulti ga'ee.
5. Hum keh saktay hain keh hum aik lafz ka badalna daikh rahay hain.
Authorities abhi issay mananay per taiyar hon ya nahin inqalaab zameen
per tareeban mukamal hai:)
6. Zuban main purity naam ki koee shai nahin hoti:) Hum sirf yeh keh
saktay hain keh falaanay waqt main yoon mustamil tha (likhnay main,
parhnay main, bolnay main, is ilaqay main, aur is tarhan kay logon
main) aur yeh bhi koi sau fee sad certainty say nahin. Yaqinan warna
"pure" panjabi main ghi qamees hi mustamil hoga.
> Vijay- Hide quoted text -
Naseer
Atif Sahib, Faiz ne "qamiiz" ke kafan par aaKhirii kiil ThoNk dii hai.
ab ise dafn hii kar diijiye aur (lillaah) chhoRiye is qisse ko!:-)
Naseer
arahim
kya yeh keel swaad kay ooper wo(h) nukta hai jo ussay zwaad banaataa
hai:)
Laikin kahiyay "pure" punjabi main keel kahan thooki huee hai?:)
> Naseer
Zoya
> > ab ise dafn hii kar diijiye aur (lillaah) chhoRiye is qisse ko!:-)
>
> kya yeh keel swaad kay ooper wo(h) nukta hai jo ussay zwaad banaataa
> hai:)
>
> Laikin kahiyay "pure" punjabi main keel kahan thooki huee hai?:)
Atif sahib/Naseer sahib,
I am as pure blooded Punjabi as they get, aakhir sardaarni huuN
bhai :) This is what I want to say in conlusion:
Absolutely no disrespect to Faiz, but I am sticking with 'qamiiz'. If
switch to 'qamiis' in Punjab of this day and age, the next time I
visit any Boutique, all dress designers and perhaps even 'darziis'
will be like, "didi, kya kahaa aap ne?!"
Gosh, Naseer bhai, look what you have done!! I have two weddings
coming up next week, and I had been debating for weeks which salwaar
qamiiz suits to wear, now I am seriously leaning towards my Satya Paul
saris!!!! :) :)
___Zoya
Naseer
ek baat aap bhuul rahii haiN, Zoya bahin! jab aap *apne* Punjab meN
hoN gii to vahaaN to "kamiij" bhii chale gii aur"darjii" bhii chaleN
ge. lekin jab aap Urdu-i-Mu'allaa meN tashriif-farmaa hoN gii to is
'aalii-shaan maqaam kii Hurmat ko bar-qaraar rakhne ke liye aap kii
zabaan tabhii gul-fishaanii kare gii jab shalvaar-qamiis meN malbuus
ho gii!:-)
aur jahaaN tak be-chaare Faiz Sahib kaa ta'alluq hai, 'aqiidat aur
vafaa bhii ko'ii chiiz hotii hai!:-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJDnV4xaA0Q&feature=related
rang pairaahan kaa Khushbuu zulf lahraane kaa naam
mausam-i-gul hai tumhaare baam par aane kaa naam
Naseer
Naseer
swaad ke uupar to ko'ii nu*q*tah nahiiN, bhaa'ii Sahib! aap kyuN apnii
siyaahii zaa'i' kar rahe haiN?
> Laikin kahiyay "pure" punjabi main keel kahan thooki huee hai?:)> Naseer
baat kuchh samajh meN nahiiN aa'ii, Atif Sahib. Spitting a nail?
Naseer
Baad-e-Siyaah
> > Anil Sahib can write "kamiij" if he wishes. And until it is proven
> > without any shadow of doubt that "qamiiz" has been replaced even in
> > the writings of reputable authors, in my book it will remain as
> > qamiis!;- And if it turns out to be the case that it is "qamiiz", I
> > will accept it gracefully and go into a coma!:-)
Naseer Saahib
pahle badhaaii phir duhaaii
phali baar maine aap ki etymology heavy post puuri paRhi.
Technically kalaam Mukhtalif saahib ka hai, Anil Sahib ko is meN
ghasiiTaa nahiiN jaa saktaa.
qamiiz sirf Punjabi hi nahiiN kahte haiN, maine to har tamiiz-daar
darzii ko qamiiz hi kahte sunaa hai.
I
Naseer
> > > Anil Sahib can write "kamiij" if he wishes. And until it is proven
> > > without any shadow of doubt that "qamiiz" has been replaced even in
> > > the writings of reputable authors, in my book it will remain as
> > > qamiis!;- And if it turns out to be the case that it is "qamiiz", I
> > > will accept it gracefully and go into a coma!:-)
>
> Naseer Saahib
>
> pahle badhaaii phir duhaaii
>
> phali baar maine aap ki etymology heavy post puuri paRhi.
I don't think there was any "etymology" in this post *Kala* Sahib!:-)
> Technically kalaam Mukhtalif saahib ka hai, Anil Sahib ko is meN
> ghasiiTaa nahiiN jaa saktaa.
Point taken but the "ghasiiTing" was n't done by me.
> qamiiz sirf Punjabi hi nahiiN kahte haiN, maine to har tamiiz-daar
> darzii ko qamiiz hi kahte sunaa hai.
Well, they do say "You can take a horse to the water but you can't
make it drink". The choice is yours! You asked me a question and
rather than ignoring you, I have answered it to the best of my
ability.
Naseer
arahim
Mugar jo naam liyay ga'ay (Faiz kay ilaawa) un ko bhi to aap reputable
author samajhtay he hon gay:) kabhi kamees bhi pehli baar urdu main
istaimal hua ho ga aur chances yehi hain keh pehlay boal chaal main
aayaa ho ga. Jinhain aap mustanad sources mantay hain woh bhi lafz
kahaan say uthatay hain? Eventually kisi lafz kay 'aam o khaas
istaimal may already a jaanay kay b'ad. kiya ab hum yeh samjhain kay
zubaan munjamid ho gai aur is main koi rad o badal nahin kia ja sakta?
Fikar na kijiyay jo daikhoon ga wohi kahoon ga:) Maududi nay qamees
likha hai laikin muzakkar likha hai: yousak ka qamees (usee kay
tarjumay main jo aap ki original post main hai). Again Maududi ka
zamana thora purana hai jis waqt ko hum daikhna chahtay hain us main
aur aik arabi jananay walay say yehi tawaqo' ki ja sakti hai. kuch aur
tarjuma karnay walon nay kurtaa istaimal kiyaa hai.
> Naseer
Naseer
I think this nazm should clear the "shalwaar/salwaar controversy". :-)
The nazm is called "aaNdhii" and the poet is Nazir Ahmad Shaikh.
khiRkii khaRke, sirkii sarke, phaRke raushan-daan
naakah-bandii karte karte sab ghar registaan
jhaaRuu jhaaRan mauj manaaeN un kaa apnaa raaj
piipaa baiThaa Dhol bajaae kathak naache chhaaj
dar-ham bar-ham sab tasviireN, turfaH-tar aHvaal
mirZaa GHaalib ulTe laTkeN, sajde meN Iqbaal
ek baguulah sab se uulaa bhuutoN kaa sardaar
lauT palaT kar paRhtaa jaae dunyaa ke aKHbaar
sunte sunte shor-sharaabaa kaanoN kaa yih Haal
begum apnii shaal mangaae naukar laae daal
uRtii phirtii jhaaRii pakRe logon kii shalvaar
jab tak vuh shalvaar chhuRaaeN ruKHsat ho dastaar
chhajje ne jab jhaTkaa khaa kar dhaR se phaiNkii iiNT
maTke kaa vuh jhaTkaa dekhaa sar se guzrii chhiiNT
peRoN ke jab Tahne TuuTe sab kii TuuTii aas
uple chhat se faur-an kuude siidhe chuulhe paas
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Zoya
>
> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
>
> I think this nazm should clear the "shalwaar/salwaar controversy". :-)
>
> The nazm is called "aaNdhii" and the poet is Nazir Ahmad Shaikh.
>
> khiRkii khaRke, sirkii sarke, phaRke raushan-daan
> naakah-bandii karte karte sab ghar registaan
>
> jhaaRuu jhaaRan mauj manaaeN un kaa apnaa raaj
> piipaa baiThaa Dhol bajaae kathak naache chhaaj
>
> dar-ham bar-ham sab tasviireN, turfaH-tar aHvaal
> mirZaa GHaalib ulTe laTkeN, sajde meN Iqbaal
>
> ek baguulah sab se uulaa bhuutoN kaa sardaar
> lauT palaT kar paRhtaa jaae dunyaa ke aKHbaar
>
> sunte sunte shor-sharaabaa kaanoN kaa yih Haal
> begum apnii shaal mangaae naukar laae daal
>
> uRtii phirtii jhaaRii pakRe logon kii shalvaar
> jab tak vuh shalvaar chhuRaaeN ruKHsat ho dastaar
>
> chhajje ne jab jhaTkaa khaa kar dhaR se phaiNkii iiNT
> maTke kaa vuh jhaTkaa dekhaa sar se guzrii chhiiNT
>
> peRoN ke jab Tahne TuuTe sab kii TuuTii aas
> uple chhat se faur-an kuude siidhe chuulhe paas
>
>
> KHair-andesh,
> Naseer
But is definitely a refreshingly fun read and brought a smile to my face. Thanks for sharing.
__Zoya
Naseer
My intention was to quote a reputable poet who has used the word "shalvaar". I can provide examples from the likes of Aatash and Insha but to be honest with you, I did n't really understand their ash3aar!:-) Vijay SaaHib, with great reluctance, accepted the word "qamiis" only after Faiz's good offices. Now I can see an uphill struggle in convincing you and am wondering whose "sifaarish" you would find acceptable for the word "shalvaar".:-)
I don't know if you have read any of Saadat (Sa3aadat) Hassan Manto's afsaane or not but one of his well known ones is called "kaalii shalvaar".
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/kali-shalwar-saadat-hasan-manto-ebooks
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
> My intention was to quote a reputable poet who has used the word "shalvaar". I can provide examples from the likes of Aatash and Insha but to be honest with you, I did n't really understand their ash3aar!:-) Vijay SaaHib, with great reluctance, accepted the word "qamiis" only after Faiz's good offices. Now I can see an uphill struggle in convincing you and am wondering whose "sifaarish" you would find acceptable for the word "shalvaar".:-)
You may perhaps acknowledge Sahir Ludhyanvi as an acceptable
name in this respect. But the problem is that he has used this
word in a filmi song ---> "Reshmi Shalwar Kurta Jaali Ka..."
Afzal
Zoya
>
> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab 3arz hai
>
> My intention was to quote a reputable poet who has used the word "shalvaar". I can provide examples from the likes of Aatash and Insha but to be honest with you, I did n't really understand their ash3aar!:-) Vijay SaaHib, with great reluctance, accepted the word "qamiis" only after Faiz's good offices. Now I can see an uphill struggle in convincing you and am wondering whose "sifaarish" you would find acceptable for the word "shalvaar".:-)
>
> I don't know if you have read any of Saadat (Sa3aadat) Hassan Manto's afsaane or not but one of his well known ones is called "kaalii shalvaar".
>
> https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/kali-shalwar-saadat-hasan-manto-ebooks
>
> Naseer
Honestly, I am not being stubborn, I accept 'shalvaar', my friends from Karachi and even U P use it verbally all the time. What I am saying is I have always heard everyone say 'salwaar' in my side of Punjab, so 'shalwaar' will sound kind of odd if I start using that. You know "While in Rome.....
And yes, I am a huge fan of Manto. I read most of his works including 'kaali shalvaar' and 'Tobha Tek Singh' many years ago, and then again a few years ago. I have to admit that I really did not understand or appreciate the depth of his work till I was older.
Interestingly, when I was visiting India last year, the movie 'Manto', directed by Nandita Das, was released. Nawazzudin Siddiqui, one of my all time favorite actors, plays Manto. My dad and I watched the movie in a theatre in Ludhiana. Sadly, there were only four or five people in the entire movie hall, including us. The movie ran in the theatre for exactly one week, two shows a day. It is a very well made movie, one thing I found interesting, and didn't know about earlier, was the close friendship that Manto had with actor Shyam.
This movie is available on Netflix now, perhaps even YouTube. If you havn't seen it, I highly recommend that you watch it, I am sure you will enjoy it.
Thanks for giving me a chance to talk about Manto, I don't get to discuss him with my contemporaries often.
___Zoya
Zoya
>
> You may perhaps acknowledge Sahir Ludhyanvi as an acceptable
> name in this respect. But the problem is that he has used this
> word in a filmi song ---> "Reshmi Shalwar Kurta Jaali Ka..."
>
>
> Afzal
aadaab,
Thank you so much for inadvertently casting the vote on my side! I request you, Naseer sahib or anyone else to listen to this song again carefully. I am 100% sure that Asha Bhosle is singing 'reshmi salvaar' NOT 'reshmi shalvaar'!
Who better than Sahir Ludhianvi, my hometown shaayar, to seal the deal!
So, "While in Ludhiana, ........"!!
I hope Vijay sahib gets back from his vacation soon, I suspect I may need his vote too.
___Zoya
Naseer
Naseer
Zoya
> Thank you Afzal SaaHib. Now, why did n't I think of this song? It matters not if its a film song. What is of relevance is that it be an Urdu song and no one would doubt that Sahir Ludhianvi was an Urdu shaa3ir!
>
> Naseer
Come on gentlemen, be agreeable. I have already agreed it can go either way, but you can't use a 'Ludhianvi' to make your point. He is on my side, by birthright.
Naseer
As you have sown a seed of doubt in my mind, I thought the film perhaps depicted a Punjabi backdrop, hence the "mahiya" song (uReN jab jab zulfeN terii) and as Punjabis tend to pronounce "shalvaar" as "salvaar", Sahir the shaa3ir (NOT the shaayar!:-)) has provided this additional touch to the song. Then I thought I wonder if Asha Bhosle has sung this song live. Well, she has and it is "reSHamii SHalvaar" with the letter shiin and not siin possessing a sheen that should only be seen and not touched!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha8tPVGaCUg
Naseer
Zoya
>
> At your behest Zoya Saahibah, I have just listened to the opening part of the song. Asha Bhosle, to my ears, is saying "shalvaar". If anything, for qamiis, she appears to be saying "kuRtaa" and not "kurtaa"!:-)
>
> As you have sown a seed of doubt in my mind, I thought the film perhaps depicted a Punjabi backdrop, hence the "mahiya" song (uReN jab jab zulfeN terii) and as Punjabis tend to pronounce "shalvaar" as "salvaar", Sahir the shaa3ir (NOT the shaayar!:-)) has provided this additional touch to the song. Then I thought I wonder if Asha Bhosle has sung this song live. Well, she has and it is "reSHamii SHalvaar" with the letter shiin and not siin possessing a sheen that should only be seen and not touched!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha8tPVGaCUg
>
> Naseer
No way! There is no 'shiin' in what Asha Bhosle is singing, I just had two independent jurists listen to the song, and they heard 'salvaar'!
I rest my case. Please listen to the song again, and again until you start hearing 'salvaar', just as Sahir Ludhianvi probably intended.
Naseer
Naseer
Naseer
Naseer
Zoya
>
> Without testing the hearing ability of your "independent jurists", I can not concede to this conclusion!:-) I have heard the opening part of the song a few times now. My razor-sharp, ultra-sensitive ear-drums are sending "shiin" waves to my brain and I know the same is happening to you because I am "Naseer Shib" now!
>
> Naseer
I think your brain and your ears are generating waves of random frequencies now. Just take a break, come back to it with a Punjabi mindset and you will hear 'salvaar', loud and clear, just as 'Sahir the Ludhianvi' intended.
Let us wait for Vijay sahib's opinion. If he too hears a 'shiin', I may have to reconsider. Until then, I am not budging.
Shoaib Tanvir
aap mujh ko bohat pasand aayeeN
aap meri qameez sijiye ga
آپ مجھ کو بہت پسند آئیں
آپ میری قمیض سیجئے گا
Naseer
kyaa aap Jaun Elia kii us kitaab kaa naam bataa sakte haiN jis meN lafz "qamiiz" likhaa hu'aa hai? fi_lHaal maiN aap kii xaatir Urdu Web se yih rabt chaspaaN kar rahaa huuN jahaaN yih Ghazal pesh kii ga'ii hai. matla3 hai..
mujh ko aap apnaa pataa diijiye gaa
aur kuchh nah mujh se liijiye gaa
aap mujh ko bahut pasand aa'iiN
aap merii qamiis siijiye gaa
https://www.urduweb.org/mehfil/threads/%D9%85%D8%AC%DA%BE-%DA%A9%D9%88-%D8%A7%D9%93%D9%BE-%D8%A7%D9%BE%D9%86%D8%A7-%D9%BE%D8%AA%D8%A7-%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AC%DB%8C%DB%92-%DA%AF%D8%A7.67561/
Naseer
Naseer
It is said, "avval xvesh ba3d darvesh". Why not start with xvesh and ask your Raj Uncle SaaHib. If you are not satisfied, then turn to a "darvesh", in your case your dear friend Amjad Islam Amjad SaaHib. I shall accept the word of either of these two respected gentlemen. I think the acid test would be if you were to compose a nazm or Ghazal with the word "salvaar" somewhere within your composition. Recite your poem and wait for the reaction when you utter the word "salvaar"!:-)
Naseer
Zoya
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 4:32:05 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Zoya SaaHibah, I can't believe we are having this conversation!:-) Of course, there is no harm in a little leg pulling and light hearted chit-chat and I am wondering if that is what you are doing. However, if you are serious that in Urdu the word is "salvaar" and not "shalvaar", then there is a way to resolve this "issue".
I would be lying if I said I am not having fun this conversation! :) And now I am hoping we don't drag in the string used to tie a salvaar/shalvaar! I had always heard/called it 'naala' until I heard my non Punjabi, Urdu/Hindi speaking friends call it 'naaRa', that is sooooo annoying!
Now coming back to the word under discussion, I have accepted fully that in Urdu the word is shalvaar. No argument there.
But there is more to the story here. Read on.
> It is said, "avval xvesh ba3d darvesh". Why not start with xvesh and ask your Raj Uncle SaaHib. If you are not satisfied, then turn to a "darvesh", in your case your dear friend Amjad Islam Amjad SaaHib. I shall accept the word of either of these two respected gentlemen.
Actually, I myself was thinking of getting Raj uncle's opinion on this issue. I am confident he will hear 'salvaar', just as you should have, come on brother!!!
Raj uncle, please?
> I think the acid test would be if you were to compose a nazm or Ghazal with the word "salvaar" somewhere within your composition. Recite your poem and wait for the reaction when you utter the word "salvaar"!:-)
And a final note, I hope you will not quote AttaUlla Khan Esa Khelvi song 'kamiiz teri kaali, ni sohne phulaaN vaali' to covince Shoaib sahib that he should have written 'qammis' in the JE sh'er he quoted. ;-)
Just for fun, here is a link to that song, I have always loved it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epwPWyH1FSU
To be continued......
___Zoya
>
> Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
> On Friday, 4 October 2019 21:47:59 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
>> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:25:39 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
>>> My intention was to quote a reputable poet who has used the word "shalvaar". I can provide examples from the likes of Aatash and Insha but to be honest with you, I did n't really understand their ash3aar!:-) Vijay SaaHib, with great reluctance, accepted the word "qamiis" only after Faiz's good offices. Now I can see an uphill struggle in convincing you and am wondering whose "sifaarish" you would find acceptable for the word "shalvaar".:-)
>>
>> Naseer sahib,
>>
>> Honestly, I am not being stubborn, I accept 'shalvaar', my friends from Karachi and even U P use it verbally all the time. What I am saying is I have always heard everyone say 'salwaar' in my side of Punjab, so 'shalwaar' will sound kind of odd if I start using that. You know "While in Rome.....
>
> I follow and accept your line of thinking Zoya SaaHiba but when I was talking about "qamiis" and "shalvaar", I had Urdu in mind. I know in my part of Punjab we say "kamiiz" and "salvaar" and in yours "kamiij" and "salvaar".
>
> Naseer
Seemingly, both "KHoo" and "Zid" are likely to be at fault here.
Agar aap donoN "Shalwaar" par 'sehmat' haiN to :
Phir yeh haNgaama ai KHuda kya hai ?
Is it that "Shalwaar" is used in western Punjab (now in Pakistan)
and "Salwaar" is used in eastern Punjab (now in India) ?
And another question that occurs to my mind is this :
What was the usage during British times, i.e. in Pre-Partition
India ?
I had quoted the example of a Sahir Ludhianvi song. You can see
it on YouTube. And you can also see (and read) the descriptive
details given there. There are any number of clips of the same
song and, in each instance, the description refers to the lyrics
with "Shalwaar" --- with an "h".
Also, there are certain sites (though you might not have seen
them or even be interested in referring to them) where the lyrics
of film songs are given in Roman script (and even in Devanagri
script). And these sites too spell the word with a "sheen".
The film "Naya Daur" (which featured the afore-cited song) was
made by B. R. Chopra, a well-known producer and director. He
and poet/lyricist Sahir Ludhianvi both hailed from the Punjab
and it is inconceivable that neither of them knew the Z. version
of the word and its spelling/pronunciation.
*********************************
Actually, the real problem may possibly pertain to Bihar , and
not the Punjab.
It would seem that people from that state are more or less
accustomed to pronouncing "sheen" as "seen". That could
possibly be due to the influence of Bhojpuri which is the
dominant language in that part of India.
There was a well-known politician and Parliamentarian named
Dr. Ram Subhag Singh who hailed from Bihar and was a Central
Government Minister in several Congress Party Governments,
holding many important portfolios. He was very highly educated
and even had a doctorate from the University of Missouri,
Columbia, Missouri State, USA. Born in 1917, he passed away in
1980, due to a heart attack.
A story is told (and I don't know how far that is true, if at
all) that even he enunciated the sound of the letter "sh" as
simply 's'. People used to make fun of him, using the example
of a common Urdu/hindi word. But it would be impolite to
repeat that story here.
Afzal
Shoaib Tanvir
aap ka sawaal paRh kar maiN ne JE ki kitaab “yaa’ni” uThaaii ke aap ko safha number bhejooN magar heraan ho gaya ke wahaaN lafz qamiis likha hai, kammiz naheeN.
maiN ne apni zinadgi meiN bohat kam kamiis likha dekha aur suna hai aur hamesha qamiiz ko durust samajhta aaya tha. lekin aaj meiN ne JE ki sanad dekh kar apni iss raaye say ruju’ kar liya hai.
Naseer
What Zoya SaaHibah is saying is that in the Naya Daur song, Asha Bhosle is also pronouncing it as "salvaar" and her reasoning is that her ham-shahrii Sahir Ludhiyanvi has deliberately given the word a Punjabi twist. I am hearing the word in the film song as well as the live Asha Bhosle version as "shalvaar". Zoya SaaHibah's perceiving it as "salvaar" and she is adamant about it. That's the contention now, it seems.
Naseer
Naseer
"Nur-ul-Lughaat also gives it as قمیص and adds that "Jaliil-o-Jalaal** ne muzakkar likhaa hai. bol-chaal meN beshtar taaniis ke saath hai. (fiqrah) aap sab kii qamiiseN tayyaar ho ga'iiN." It also adds "'avaam qamiiz* bolte haiN".
The point is that the poetry being posted and discussed in this Newsgroup is not "vulgar", "colloquial" or "'aam bol-chaal". On the contrary, it is based on the literary language and in the literary language, the word is قمیص."
* Nur-ul-Lughaat gives qamiiz as قمیز and NOT قمیض
kyaa karuuN bhaa'ii yih i3zaaz maiN kyoN-kar pahnuuN
mujh se le lo mirii sab chaak qamiisoN kaa Hisaab
Faiz Ahmed Faiz (NauHah)
................................................................................
Naseer
Naseer
"naalaa" is a small stream of water, clean or filthy! In our chaste TheTh Punjabi, we use the word "naaRaa" and I assure you, there is no Urdu influence here at all! I would like to add one thing though and you may or may not know this. Punjabi has two kinds of l. One the "normal" one as in "lassii" and the other belongs to the retroflex family of letters like R, as in pakoRaa. This "l" can be transcribed as "L" and it most definitely has the flavour of "R". If you have n't come across this phenomenon, then listen to Shazia Manzoor. In the "battiyaaN bujhaa'ii rakhdii" song, she says "diivaa baLe saarii raat" where "baLe" sounds like "baRe" but NOT quite!
The "truth" is that Sahir Ludhiyanvi wrote "shalvaar" and Asha Bhosle enunciated it as "shalvaar". Let's leave this fact finding mission to third parties. We have had one response, from Afzal SaaHib, so far already.
I have mentioned "kamiiz terii kaalii" song from Ataullah Khan Esakhelvi. But, this song is Punjabi!
xair-xvaah,
Naseer
Zoya
>
> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
>
> "naalaa" is a small stream of water, clean or filthy! In our chaste TheTh Punjabi, we use the word "naaRaa" and I assure you, there is no Urdu influence here at all! I would like to add one thing though and you may or may not know this. Punjabi has two kinds of l. One the "normal" one as in "lassii" and the other belongs to the retroflex family of letters like R, as in pakoRaa. This "l" can be transcribed as "L" and it most definitely has the flavour of "R". If you have n't come across this phenomenon, then listen to Shazia Manzoor. In the "battiyaaN bujhaa'ii rakhdii" song, she says "diivaa baLe saarii raat" where "baLe" sounds like "baRe" but NOT quite!
Anyways, I dont want to pull this part of the string any further. I concur with you. It is not a pure L sound that I was referring to, it is indeed a deeper L. However, to my ears, it sounds more like an LH than LR. Very common in Punjabi. So the two of us can totally agree on the way this sounds, if not on the dissected composition or Romanization of it. Case closed on this one.
And I have a Navratri Puja to go to this evening, I think I will drape a sari, forget salvaar-qamiiz, so shalvaar/qamiis does not come to haunt me in the middle of the ceremony! :-)
____Zoya
Naseer
> On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 12:17:28 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> he dissected composition or Romanization of it. Case closed on this one.
>
>
> ____Zoya
* Zoya SaaHibah, I know old habits die hard!:-)
** Is it "saarii", "aadhii", "saaRi" or "saaRhii"?:-)
(By the way, "Myself to blame partially" should have been "Myself to blame almost completely" !:-))
Naseer
Zoya
Nope, I will not accept the full blame, you are an equal partner in crime, you have been stirring the pot! :-)
Nor am I taking your bait to start the saari/saaRi debate! It is quite funny that you threw 'aaRhi' in the mix, I am not a pro at draping saari/saaRi, it is a project for me. I usually need an assistant to hold on to the pleats, and the end result is invariably 'aaRhi' :---)))
Oh, and I am about to declare victory and close the "salvaar" discussion.
Stay tuned.......
_____Zoya
Naseer
Where did you read "aaRhi"? What is half of "saarii"?
Proportion of blame? kamiiz + salvaar + naaRaa = At least 75% on your side!:-)
Victory? I don't think so:-)
Naseer
Zoya
>
> I have serious doubts about your hearing Zoya SaaHibah and now I know the sight needs to be looked into as well!:-)
>
> Where did you read "aaRhi"? What is half of "saarii"?
>
> Proportion of blame? kamiiz + salvaar + naaRaa = At least 75% on your side!:-)
>
> Victory? I don't think so:-)
>
> Naseer
Naseer
ਨਾਲਾ, ਨਾਲ਼ਾ or ਨਾੜਾ?
Naseer
Zoya
>
> As a matter of interest Zoya SaaHibah, do you write "naalaa" as:
>
>
> Naseer
Naseer sahib,
ਨਾਲਾ: a stream of water
I have seen this written often in various Gurmukhi newspapers during my visits to Punjab, especially with reference to 'Buddah (Old) naala', the stream that passes through the city of Ludhiana. It is totally polluted now, with industrial and other city waste, a complete stinky dirty mess. Sad.
ਨਾਲ਼ਾ: Ideally this is how a string used to tie a 'salvaar (not shalvaar!!) or pajaama should be written. Honestly, I am not sure if I have ever written this/ or seen it written in Gurmukhi. But we use it in spoken language on daily basis.
A very special personal note: A couple of years ago, my mom gave me two ਨਾਲ਼ਾs, which were hand woven by her mother, my naniji, using little bamboo sticks, called 'kaanaa' in Punjabi, over sixty years ago. These ਨਾਲ਼ਾs mean so much to me, a keepsake forever, my late naniji was one of my all time favorite ladies.
ਨਾੜਾ: Never used in our side of Punjab, written or spoken. Must go with that alien garment called 'shalvaar', in some other universe!! :-)
_____Zoya
Naseer
My online dictionary gives ਨਾਲ਼ਾ for both the stream of water AND the chord. ਲ਼ is absent from my Punjabi but very much in use in my maternal side of the family. Interesting thing to note is that ਲ਼ does not begin any words.
Confession time. I am an "alian" from "another universe" and use the word ਨਾੜਾ for a chord! And to quote you further, I "must be an implant, not an original domicile of the area."! One thing that I don't know for sure is when I was implanted in my part of the world. I suspect it would be around 1500 BC (plus or minus a few decades):-)
Naseer
Zoya
>
> Confession time. I am an "alian" from "another universe" and use the word ਨਾੜਾ for a chord! And to quote you further, I "must be an implant, not an original domicile of the area."! One thing that I don't know for sure is when I was implanted in my part of the world. I suspect it would be around 1500 BC (plus or minus a few decades):-)
>
> Naseer
Naseer sahib, Your confession has verified that your audio frequencies have been seriously compromised. No wonder you can not hear 'salvaar' clearly!! Please accept my heartfelt condolences on your loss of the argument, and your audio inability to accept it, so sorry. :-----))
I am going to add a concluding post in the other related, 'Laurel vs Yanny', thread. Stay tuned.
The ultimate authority on Punjabi ladies suit,
_____Zoya