ek savaal
Naseer
aap jaante haiN kih janaab-i-Raj Kumar "Qais" Sahib jab kabhii apnii
Ghazal yaa nazm pesh karte the to aksar auqaat vuh Farsi kaa
muHaavarah "gar qubuul uftad" [agar qubuul ho] istimaal karte the.yih
muHaavarah asal-an kis shaa'ir/adiib kaa hai?
Naseer
arahim
ho sakta hai ho koi sha'ir jo uftad takhulas karta ho:)
> Naseer
Naseer
I think you are a much better poet than a comedian! And that is saying
something:-)
arahim
Donon mahzooz karnay kay tarikay hain agar ab bhi na hoo'ay to threat
di ja sakti hai ke(h) donon ka combination abhi baqi hai:)
صالح و طالح متاع خویش نمایند تا چه قبول افتد و چه در نظر آید
http://fa.wikisource.org/wiki/حافظ_(غزلیات)/بر_سر_آنم_که_گر_ز_دست_برآید
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2077453
Naseer
> Donon mahzooz karnay kay tarikay hain agar ab bhi na hoo'ay to threat
> di ja sakti hai ke(h) donon ka combination abhi baqi hai:)
>
> صالح و طالح متاع خویش نمایند تا چه قبول افتد و چه در نظر آید
>
> http://fa.wikisource.org/wiki/حافظ_(غزلیات)/بر_سر_آنم_که_گر_ز_دست_برآیدhttp://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2077453
Atif Sahib thank you. I could n't open the link but from what I can
see above, there is no "gar qubuul uftad".
Naseer
arahim
gar qabool uftaad bar asool uftaad
kar zaroor uftaad dar bahoor uftaad
Mirza Aamad ullah Jang Uftaad
Also known as Mirza Taisha(h)
> Naseer
Rajiv Chakravarti
Naseer sahab, aadaab -
I am replying to your original/first post, so as to not get involved
with the other "thread" here.
I too have been curious about the phrase "gar qubool uftad" -- writen
with a short "a", and not "uftaad" with an elongated "aa".
I have been trying to find the
In any case, I have been trying to find the source of the phrase --
Steingass has the following entries:
1) افتدن uftadan, To fall; to happen.
2) افتادن uftādan (S. pat), To fall; to be- fal, to happen; to submit;
to perish, be ruined; to be distant;--uftādan az, To re- nounce;--az
pā uftādan, To slip; to fall from weakness or languor; to be infirm;--
az ḵẖar uftādan, To die;--az sari kār uftād, He perished;--az shikam
uftādan, To die;--az kār uftādan, To leave a thing un- finished, to
desist (az kār uftāda, abject, useless, vile);--ba-maẕāq muwāfiq
uftādan, To be acceptable, to please;--paiwasti (dar-paiwasti) kase
uftādan, To calumniate, to slander;--dar afwāh uftādan, To be
recorded, to be related;--dar pay uftādan, To follow;--mabẕūl uftādan,
To be accept- able.
-- and the related entries:
3) پیش پا افتاده pesh-pā uftāda, Very near and dear, very intimate.
4) درآب افتادن dar āb uftādan, To sink in the water; to be
annihilated.
5) در پوست افتادن dar post(in) uftādan, To tra- duce. (ie: to
badmouth)
6) هم افتاده dar-ham uftāda, Ruined, fallen into chaos and confusion.
7) فرا راه افتادن farā rāh uftādan, To be taught, instructed,
trained;--farā rāh af- gandan, To instruct, educate, train.
------------------
With the above information, I still have some questions on the phrase
-
1) How would one translate it into English, for instance? (It
obviously has the connotation: "if you would be so kind as to indulge
me") I would'nt say, "if you accept my helplessness," etc.
2) Both verbs uftadan and uftaadan are present in the dictionary and
carry parallel meanings. uftaadan seems to have additionally: "being
extinguished/defeated/killed" etc. None of these additional meanings
would make sense in RK sahab's use, of course.
So 'uftad' in the short vowel form seems to be more appropriate here.
In Urdu, I have also seen "uftaad" or "uftaadgi" used for statements
of "calamity" - again, not particularly relevant here. I guess I am
looking for more examples of this word, especially in Urdu.
3) I have seen our own "Qureshpor" sahab's post on WordReference.com
and BenQ's response saying:
"In Persian, we use تا چه قبول افتد و چه در نظر آيد exactly in the
same situation that you mentioned and it is very common between
educated persons."
How would one translate the Farsi phrase above to English? My own
(lame) attempt would be: " As far as you can handle it, or however
much your sight can take in" (loosely).
--
This is an interesting thread, Naseer sahab -- and I hope it does not
get sidetracked with extraneous offshoots.. Thanks for your post..
Regards,
RC
Naseer
wrote:
Very lengthy post, RC Sahib! I don't know where to begin:-)
1) I don't think we need to worry whether the verb is "uftadan" (about
which I was n't even aware) or "uftaadan". The important thing is that
the root is "uft" from which one gets fi'l muzaari'
2) gar qubuul uftad.
abhii abhii bandah-i-naa-chiiz se ek Ghazal hu'ii hai. apne maddaaHoN
kii Khaatir ise bilaa taaKhiir pesh kar rahaa huuN...gar qubuul uftad
........if you don't mind,
........if it's OK with you
........if you are agreeaable
........if it pleases you
Take your pick!
3) saaliH-o-taaliH mataa'-i-Khvesh namuudand
taa chih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
also
taa kih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
taa, as you are aware has a multitude of meanings. Here it
means..."dekhte haiN...Let us see..."
The pious and the wicked have put their merchandise on display
Let's see what is acceptale and how it is (all) viewed (how it all
pans out)
4) I think I know the answer to my question. The poet in question is
not a famous one and for this reason I have been thinking that he
could be quoting another (well known) poet.
Now, in turn, you can unfold for me your monumental knowledge of Urdu
prosody, gar qubuul uftad!
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
All this Persian stuff is rather beyond me........
You started the thread with a reference to RKQ Saheb's
prefatory comment ("gar qubool uftad") while presenting a
ghazal. But I am a little surprised that the complete
phrase has not been mentioned in any post in the thread;
"Gar qubool uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf".
Of course, since the first three words do convey to the
listener what is intended or meant by the poet, the latter
part is often omitted.
The full expression would mean : "If you find it acceptable,
I would feel honoured". This is not a literal rendition.
However, if only the abbreviated part is uttered, it may not be
proper to translate it as "If you find it acceptable....".
A better sense could be : "May it please you Or May you find
it acceptable....". In other words, "if" gets replaced by "may".
My two cents.
Afzal
Rajiv Chakravarti
> On 3/2/2011 3:12 PM, Naseer wrote:
> > 1) I don't think we need to worry whether the verb is "uftadan" (about
> > which I was n't even aware) or "uftaadan". The important thing is that
> > the root is "uft" from which one gets fi'l muzaari'
>
> > 2) gar qubuul uftad.
>
> > abhii abhii bandah-i-naa-chiiz se ek Ghazal hu'ii hai. apne maddaaHoN
> > kii Khaatir ise bilaa taaKhiir pesh kar rahaa huuN...gar qubuul uftad
>
> > ........if you don't mind,
> > ........if it's OK with you
> > ........if you are agreeaable
> > ........if it pleases you
>
> > Take your pick!
I have no problems with any of the above, Naseer saahab -- my problem
(probably because of the dictionary entries) is what is this "uft"
exactly? How does the Farsi root meaning "falling/being helpless" etc.
extend to "please/agreeable/etc" linguistically?
>
> > 3) saaliH-o-taaliH mataa'-i-Khvesh namuudand
> > taa chih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
>
> > also
>
> > taa kih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
>
> > taa, as you are aware has a multitude of meanings. Here it
> > means..."dekhte haiN...Let us see..."
>
> > The pious and the wicked have put their merchandise on display
> > Let's see what is acceptale and how it is (all) viewed (how it all
> > pans out)
>
> > 4) I think I know the answer to my question. The poet in question is
> > not a famous one and for this reason I have been thinking that he
> > could be quoting another (well known) poet.
>
> > Now, in turn, you can unfold for me your monumental knowledge of Urdu
> > prosody, gar qubuul uftad!
>
> > Naseer
I don't know what you are looking for here, Naseer sahab - I would
attempt to answer if I knew which direction to head in. All I can say
now is the 2 lines:
saaliH-o-taaliH mataa'-i-Khvesh namuudand
taa chih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
are not exactly identical metrically -- the difference arising from
the word "mat'aa".
With the legend:
- short syllable
= long syllable
line 1 schematically is represented by:
= - - = | = - = - | = - - = | =
Behr: munsarih musamman matavi manhoor
whereas Line 2 schematically is:
= - - = | = - - = | = - - = | =
Behr: munsarih musamman matavi (my guess, no manhoor zihaafat here)
Do note the small difference in the 2nd segment -- and unless I am
wrong, the 2 metres cannot be interchanged (I am sure someone will
correct me here, if wrong -- Afzal sahab, perhaps?). If I am correct
in my assumption that the metres cannot be mixed in the same Ghazal,
then your statement that the poet of these lines is not "well known"
may also account for this discrepancy. The other possibility is that
the poster of the couplet penned it down inaccurately in the
WordReference thread.
> Naseer Saheb,
>
> All this Persian stuff is rather beyond me........
>
> You started the thread with a reference to RKQ Saheb's
> prefatory comment ("gar qubool uftad") while presenting a
> ghazal. But I am a little surprised that the complete
> phrase has not been mentioned in any post in the thread;
> "Gar qubool uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf".
>
> Of course, since the first three words do convey to the
> listener what is intended or meant by the poet, the latter
> part is often omitted.
>
> The full expression would mean : "If you find it acceptable,
> I would feel honoured". This is not a literal rendition.
>
> However, if only the abbreviated part is uttered, it may not be
> proper to translate it as "If you find it acceptable....".
> A better sense could be : "May it please you Or May you find
> it acceptable....". In other words, "if" gets replaced by "may".
>
> My two cents.
>
> Afzal
Afzal sahab and Naseer sahab -
Reading both your much valued responses still leaves me with my
question though. Even leaving the prosodic rules alone, how does
"uft" (uftadan/uftaadan) with its meaning of falling/helplessness/
failing/being defeated etc. extend to being "agreement/acceptance/
etc." when there is no such mention, nor a hint of this in the
renowned dictionaries? Please educate me.
Once again, I get the meanings you gentlemen propose via context-- I
am just trying to reconcile it with the entries.. Please indulge me,
"gar qubool uftad" ;-)
Regards,
RC
arahim
wrote:
perhaps to convey humility in the sense that if you accept the low/
fallen.
> Regards,
> RC- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naseer
The phrase in question (as far as I know) is by a well known Urdu poet
but I don't think he is famous for his Persian poetry. This is what I
meant to say.
The misra' that you brought into your post is by Hafiz. It is variably
written as:
saaliH-o-taaliH mataa'-i-KHvesh namuudand
taa kih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
saaliH-o-taaliH mataa'-i-KHvesh namuudand
taa chih qubuul uftad va chih dar nazar aayad
صالح و طالح متاع خویش نمودند تا که قبول افتد و که در نظر آید
Looking at the last version, we could translate it as:
nek-o-bad ne apne apne maal kii numaa'ish kii
dekhte haiN kaun qaabil-i-qubuul hotaa hai aur kaun nazar meN aataa
hai
I think the best way to resolve your difficulty is to think in terms
of Urdu. Here in ALUP, sometimes one comes across "ma'luum paRnaa" and
"jaan paRnaa" for "ma'luum honaa" and "lagnaa". Similarly "uftaadan"
should be considered as "paRnaa" where "qubuul uftaadan" means "qubuul
paRnaa" or "qubuul honaa"
By the way, now that I have attempted to answer your query, would you
kindly please let us ALUPers know (gar qubuul uftad), the languages
you could offer to translate in times of need. Remember?
Naseer
Naseer
Rajiv Chakravarti
> By the way, now that I have attempted to answer your query, would you
> kindly please let us ALUPers know (gar qubuul uftad), the languages
> you could offer to translate in times of need. Remember?
>
> Naseer
Yes, I do -- and I hesitated due to lack of conviction that I could
indeed help translate from "any"! I am not well-versed enough in any
to be able to help in that way -- I have no doubt that other esteemed
members would be better to approach any day, over me! :)
I will attempt to see the phrase the way you mentioned... Thanks for
your input.
Regards,
RC
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
I must apologize for commenting on a Faarsi-related topic.
But I get the feeling that the explanation furnished in your
penultimate paragraph is rather "round-about", for want of a
more appropriate word.
Why can't we render "uftaad" as "huwa" (past tense) ---> "occurred"
or "took place" ?
And "uftad" as "hoga" (sort of future conditional tense, when it is
coupled with "gar". This is what you normally refer to as
"jussive". I am sure you will recall our past discussion with
respect to this.
Inter alia, the "jussive" mood expresses pleading, wishing,
desiring, intention etc.
Haafiz Sheeraazi has two ghazals --- where the radeef is
(repectively) "uftaad" and "uftad" :
A sher from the first {"uftaad"} ghazal :
Husn-e-roo-e-tu ba~yak jalwa k(e) dar aaina kard
EeN hama naqsh dar aaina-e-auhaam uftaad
Here, to my mind, "uftaad" can be understood in the sense
of "huwa", something that actually happened or occurred.
The maqta' from the second {"uftad"} ghazal :
Haal-e-dil-e-Haafiz shud az dast-e-GHam-e-hijrat
ChuuN 'aashiq-e-sar~gardaaN kaz dost juda uftad
Here, I would submit, "uftad" is to be understood in the sense
of "hoga", in the "jussive" mood. "Kaise dost ya mehboob se
juda hoga". {The occurrence is still in the realm of imagina-
tion; it has not happened so far. I suppose one can also call
it as the 'conditional' or 'subjunctive' mood ---> agar aisa
huwa to phir aisa hoga.}
Gar qubool uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf ---> If (my ghazal) is
found acceptable (by your goodself), then it would be a matter
of pride for me.
Another two cents.
Afzal
Naseer
On Mar 2, 11:39 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:
> All this Persian stuff is rather beyond me........
Others have played a similar tune. But I won't buy it! ;-)
> You started the thread with a reference to RKQ Saheb's
> prefatory comment ("gar qubool uftad") while presenting a
> ghazal. But I am a little surprised that the complete
> phrase has not been mentioned in any post in the thread;
> "Gar qubool uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf".
Two reason for this:
1) RKQ Sahib always wrote, "gar qubuul uftad" and that is what I
quoted in my post.
2) I did n't know about the remaining part of this line...or the rest
of it for that matter.
> Of course, since the first three words do convey to the
> listener what is intended or meant by the poet, the latter
> part is often omitted.
>
> The full expression would mean : "If you find it acceptable,
> I would feel honoured". This is not a literal rendition.
All this Persian stuff is beyond you, my dear sir?
> However, if only the abbreviated part is uttered, it may not be
> proper to translate it as "If you find it acceptable....".
> A better sense could be : "May it please you Or May you find
> it acceptable....". In other words, "if" gets replaced by "may".
>
Yes, perhaps.
I have searched for this phrase in the net and was only able to
find...
gar qubuul uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf
but no clue about its author was given by anyone. As it happens, this
line comes from a poem in Farsi entitled "A tail-less fox" by Isma'iil
Merathi.
ALUPers will have read this story in their childhood. I remember
reading about a "laNDuurii lomRii" in an Urdu book. In Merathi's poem,
a fox gets trapped in a hunter's snare and as it struggles to free
itself, it manages to escape but leaves its tail behind. Of course it
was pretty embarrassing for it to face all the other foxes in the
community so it tried to sell the idea that she was overjoyed after
having lost her tail and gave all kinds of plausible reasons why they
should also get rid of theirs. After presenting all her arguments in
favour of getting rid of the tail, she exclaims:
hadyah-e az Hikmat aavardam ba-kaf
gar qubuul uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf
Hikmat kaa ik tuHfah laa'ii hathelii pih rakhe
jo qubuul ho jaa'e to jaag jaa'eN bhaag mere (Not literal translation)
Naseer
Naseer
On Mar 3, 1:11 pm, Rajiv Chakravarti <rajiv.chakrava...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mar 3, 3:27 am, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > By the way, now that I have attempted to answer your query, would you
> > kindly please let us ALUPers know (gar qubuul uftad), the languages
> > you could offer to translate in times of need. Remember?
>
> Yes, I do -- and I hesitated due to lack of conviction that I could
> indeed help translate from "any"! I am not well-versed enough in any
> to be able to help in that way -- I have no doubt that other esteemed
> members would be better to approach any day, over me! :)
>
Thank you for the convoluted and (un)helpful reply. It might have been
more beneficial if I had asked you a direct question concerning your
mother tongue!
Naseer
Naseer
> I must apologize for commenting on a Faarsi-related topic.
>
> But I get the feeling that the explanation furnished in your
> penultimate paragraph is rather "round-about", for want of a
> more appropriate word.
>
> Why can't we render "uftaad" as "huwa" (past tense) ---> "occurred"
> or "took place" ?
I don't think it was appropriate for me to go into the grammar of the
sentence especially when Rajiv Sahib is a multi-linguist supreme. My
understanding of Rajiv Sahib's query was that he could n't fathom the
meaning behind the verb "uftaadan" in the phrase. I pointed out that
it is equivalent to "honaa" and that is what you are saying. So, it
seems that we are in agreement.
> Haafiz Sheeraazi has two ghazals --- where the radeef is
> (repectively) "uftaad" and "uftad" :
>
> A sher from the first {"uftaad"} ghazal :
>
> Husn-e-roo-e-tu ba~yak jalwa k(e) dar aaina kard
> EeN hama naqsh dar aaina-e-auhaam uftaad
>
> Here, to my mind, "uftaad" can be understood in the sense
> of "huwa", something that actually happened or occurred.
>
> The maqta' from the second {"uftad"} ghazal :
>
> Haal-e-dil-e-Haafiz shud az dast-e-GHam-e-hijrat
> ChuuN 'aashiq-e-sar~gardaaN kaz dost juda uftad
>
> Here, I would submit, "uftad" is to be understood in the sense
> of "hoga", in the "jussive" mood. "Kaise dost ya mehboob se
> juda hoga". {The occurrence is still in the realm of imagina-
> tion; it has not happened so far. I suppose one can also call
> it as the 'conditional' or 'subjunctive' mood ---> agar aisa
> huwa to phir aisa hoga.}
> And "uftad" as "hoga" (sort of future conditional tense, when it is
> coupled with "gar". This is what you normally refer to as
> "jussive". I am sure you will recall our past discussion with
> respect to this.
>
> Inter alia, the "jussive" mood expresses pleading, wishing,
In "gar qubuul uftad", "uftad" is deemed to be in the "subjunctive"
mood and the "gar" of course puts a conditional touch to it. We know
that "uftaadan" means "girnaa" as well "paRnaa", and the latter is
connected quite closely to the former just like the English "to fall"
and " to befall" are linked. And it also imparts the "to be", "to
occur" to "happen" meanings. There is no "jussive" element though. It
is simply if/then sentence.. shart and javaab-i-shart.
hadiyah-e az Hikmat aavardam ba-kaf
gar qubuul uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf
Hikmat kaa ek tuHfah laa'ii maiN hathelii par
agar qubuul hove to kyaa 'izz-o-sharaf mile
Naseer
nagesh
I liked this explanation a lot. I am sure many ALUPers are aware that
"uftaad" was used by Hafiz in the first verse of the first ghazal in
his deevan - "ke ishq aasaan namood avval vali uftaad mushkilhaa".
The meaning there was "fallen".
I found this thread very interesting and wanted to thank all the
participants for their thoughtful comments.
Nagesh
Jamil
wrote:
> In any case, I have been trying to find the source of the phrase --
> Steingass has the following entries:
>
> 1) افتدن uftadan, To fall; to happen.
>
> 2) افتادن uftādan (S. pat), To fall; to be- fal, to happen; to submit;
> to perish, be ruined; to be distant;--uftādan az, To re- nounce;--az
> pā uftādan, To slip; to fall from weakness or languor; to be infirm;--
> az ḵẖar uftādan, To die;--az sari kār uftād, He perished;--az shikam
> uftādan, To die;--az kār uftādan, To leave a thing un- finished, to
> desist (az kār uftāda, abject, useless, vile);--ba-maẕāq muwāfiq
> uftādan, To be acceptable, to please;--paiwasti (dar-paiwasti) kase
> uftādan, To calumniate, to slander;--dar afwāh uftādan, To be
> recorded, to be related;--dar pay uftādan, To follow;--mabẕūl uftādan,
> To be accept- able.
>
> This is an interesting thread, Naseer sahab -- and I hope it does not
> get sidetracked with extraneous offshoots.. Thanks for your post..
>
> Regards,
> RC
uftaadan افتادن has many meanings as given by the dictionary quoted
by Rajiv Sahib, and افتدن uftadan has many meanings too. When Farsi
is translated into Urdu, many Urdu words seem to be needed just for
one Farsi word. This is quite typical.
As an example, let me quote Hafiz's Ghazal (or the second line of each
she'r, where the word uftad occurs) along with Urdu translation
according to Qazi Sajjad Hussain. This complements what Afzal sahib
has already quoted from another Ghazal of Hafiz. The Urdu translation
has a different word for uftad almost in every line. The word is used
in the Ghazal not only in the subjunctive mood but in other senses as
well.
humaa-e-auj-e-sa'aadat bedaam-e-maa uftad
agar teraa guzre bar maqaam-e-maa uftad
[sa'aadat maNdii ki bulaNdii ka humaanhamaare jaal men **aa jaa'e**
agar teraa guzar hamaarii jagah par se **ho jaa'e**]
................
agar z ruu-e-to 'akse bejaam-e-maa uftad
[agar tere chehre ka 'aks hamaare jaam men **paR jaa-e**]
...........
kay ittefaaq-e-majaal-e-salaam-e-maa uftad
[to hamaare salaam ka kyaa mauqa' **hai**]
............
kay iltifaat-e-javaab-e-salaam-e-maa uftad
[hamaare salaam ke javaab kii taraf tavajjuh kab ho **saktii hai**]
.............
bavad keh qur'a-e-daulat benaam-e-maa uftad
[ho sakta hai keh daulat ka qur'a hamaare naam **nikle**]
............
bavad keh partav-e-nuure bebaam-e-maa uftad
ho sakta hai keh kisii nuur ka saayah hamaare balaa Khaane par
**paRe**]
.............
nasiim-e-gulshan-e-jaaN dar mashaam-e-maa uftad
[jaan ke baaGh kii havaa hamaare dimaaGh meN **aati hai**]
Jamil
arahim
> On Mar 2, 9:30 pm, Rajiv Chakravarti <rajiv.chakrava...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In any case, I have been trying to find the source of the phrase --
> > Steingass has the following entries:
>
> > 1) افتدن uftadan, To fall; to happen.
>
> > 2) افتادن uftādan (S. pat), To fall; to be- fal, to happen; to submit;
> > to perish, be ruined; to be distant;--uftādan az, To re- nounce;--az
> > pā uftādan, To slip; to fall from weakness or languor; to be infirm;--
> > az ḵẖar uftādan, To die;--az sari kār uftād, He perished;--az shikam
> > uftādan, To die;--az kār uftādan, To leave a thing un- finished, to
> > desist (az kār uftāda, abject, useless, vile);--ba-maẕāq muwāfiq
> > uftādan, To be acceptable, to please;--paiwasti (dar-paiwasti) kase
> > uftādan, To calumniate, to slander;--dar afwāh uftādan, To be
> > recorded, to be related;--dar pay uftādan, To follow;--mabẕūl uftādan,
> > To be accept- able.
>
> > This is an interesting thread, Naseer sahab -- and I hope it does not
> > get sidetracked with extraneous offshoots.. Thanks for your post..
>
> > Regards,
> > RC
>
> uftaadan افتادن has many meanings as given by the dictionary quoted
> by Rajiv Sahib, and افتدن uftadan has many meanings too. When Farsi
> is translated into Urdu, many Urdu words seem to be needed just for
> one Farsi word. This is quite typical.
>
I was surprised to see (in Urdu dictionary) uftaad also meaning
bunyaad, ibtidaa.
> Jamil- Hide quoted text -
Naseer
You are absolutely right Jamil Sahib but I would contest that at least
in the Ghazal that you have quoted, one can fit "paRe" in almost every
line. "paRe" is subjunctive in most cases and in one or two cases it
gives the indicative sense "paRtaa hai/paRtii hai"
Naseer
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
>>> In any case, I have been trying to find the source of the phrase --
>>> Steingass has the following entries:
>>
>>> 1) افتدن uftadan, To fall; to happen.
>>
>>> 2) افتادن uftādan (S. pat), To fall; to be- fal, to happen; to submit;
>>> to perish, be ruined; to be distant;--uftādan az, To re- nounce;--az
>>> pā uftādan, To slip; to fall from weakness or languor; to be infirm;--
>>> az ḵẖar uftādan, To die;--az sari kār uftād, He perished;--az shikam
>>> uftādan, To die;--az kār uftādan, To leave a thing un- finished, to
>>> desist (az kār uftāda, abject, useless, vile);--ba-maẕāq muwāfiq
>>> uftādan, To be acceptable, to please;--paiwasti (dar-paiwasti) kase
>>> uftādan, To calumniate, to slander;--dar afwāh uftādan, To be
>>> recorded, to be related;--dar pay uftādan, To follow;--mabẕūl uftādan,
>>> To be accept- able.
>>
>> uftaadan افتادن has many meanings as given by the dictionary quoted
>> by Rajiv Sahib, and افتدن uftadan has many meanings too. When Farsi
>> is translated into Urdu, many Urdu words seem to be needed just for
>> one Farsi word. This is quite typical.
>>
>
> I was surprised to see (in Urdu dictionary) uftaad also meaning
> bunyaad, ibtidaa.
"Uftaad" is also used in Urdu in the sense of "museebat" /
"aafat" or calamity. For instance, "Us par yeh kaisi
uftaad paRi ke us ki naukri bhi jaati rahi".....
Afzal
Naseer
Also, "bent" as in "uftaad-i-tab'", bent of mind. For "musiibat", I
suppose anykind of uftaad/fall would be a calamity!
Going back to Atif Sahib's comment, I was wondering how this could be.
Platts gives the following entry which vindicates his entry.
P افتاد uftād, part.=افتاده uftāda, q.v.;—(as a v.n.) s.f. State of
helplessness;—beginning of life, childhood.
Naseer
Naseer
> janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> I have searched for this phrase in the net and was only able to
> find...
> gar qubuul uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf
> but no clue about its author was given by anyone. As it happens, this
> line comes from a poem in Farsi entitled "A tail-less fox" by Isma'iil
> Merathi.
> ALUPers will have read this story in their childhood. I remember
> reading about a "laNDuurii lomRii" in an Urdu book. In Merathi's poem,
> a fox gets trapped in a hunter's snare and as it struggles to free
> itself, it manages to escape but leaves its tail behind. Of course it
> was pretty embarrassing for it to face all the other foxes in the
> community so it tried to sell the idea that she was overjoyed after
> having lost her tail and gave all kinds of plausible reasons why they
> should also get rid of theirs. After presenting all her arguments in
> favour of getting rid of the tail, she exclaims:
> hadyah-e az Hikmat aavardam ba-kaf
> gar qubuul uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf
> Hikmat kaa ik tuHfah laa'ii hathelii pih rakhe
> jo qubuul ho jaa'e to jaag jaa'eN bhaag mere (Not literal translation)
> Naseer
hadyah-e az Hikmat aavardam ba-kaf
gar qubuul uftad, zahe 'izz-o-sharaf
تحفہ ایک حکمت کا ہتھیلی پر ہُوں لائی
ہووے جو قُبول تو کیا شَرَف و عزّت پائی
kaisaa rahaa tarjumah?
Naseer
Shoaib Tanvir
Thank you, Naseer sahib, for shedding light on the phrase in question. I had never bothered to go beyond the phrase to wonder about its roots. I am glad to have learned about it from you.
With best regards,
Shoaib Tanvir
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Do. Or do not. There is no try.