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PunjabiyoN kaa Urdu [1] - maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai
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Naseer
Jan 14, 2016, 11:12:04 AM1/14/16
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On 14/08/2008 at my instigation UVR SaaHib started a thread entitled, "us ne vaapas aanaa hai kabhii [ghar meN].
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/$20%22All$20India$20Radio%22$20/alt.language.urdu.poetry/sz3rnwencrg/DkwG3NT_3bkJ
It all started when the following shi3r by Zafar Iqbal was quoted (by Zafar Syed SaaHib) in ALUP.
yih ghar jis kaa hai us ne vaapas aana hai kabhii is meN
isii xaatir dar o deevaar ko chamkaaye rakhte haiN
and I remarked, "kyaa Zafar Iqbal SaaHib kii grammar durust hai? "...use vaapas aanaa hai..."?
In the above mentioned thread to which I have provided a link above, towards the end I said...
"Lady and Gents, aadaab 'arz hai.
I hope to get back to this thread in the not too distant future, not only to respond to some of the points raised but also to round things off, as it were."
It's been more than 7 years! However Asad SaaHib's comment below concerning "baahar vs baahir" has acted as a kind of catalyst to develop this topic (us ne vaapas aanaa hai/maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai) further as well as other matters (in other future threads) where Punjabis are said to be responsible for these constructions.
"Rahi baat 'baahir' aur 'baahar' ki to Urdu bolnay walay 'baahir' nhi bolte. Ye to Punjabi men hota hai (Asad- 12/01/2016)
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.language.urdu.poetry/-Udpp0QKL7Q (Arooz se mutalliq eik sawal)
In the "us ne vaapas aanaa hai kabhii..." thread, Asad SaaHib stated:-
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/$20%22All$20India$20Radio%22$20/alt.language.urdu.poetry/sz3rnwencrg/DkwG3NT_3bkJ
"Though I'm a complete illiterate as far as Urdu is concerned, to my Awadhi/Lakhnavi ears "us ne jaanaa hai" seemed odd. My reaction on coming across a piece of poetry which had the same tarkeeb was that "the poet must be a gentleman belonging to Punjab".
Indeed the poet belongs to the Punjab. But can we infer that this is a Punjabi based construction without any thing to back the assertion? Similarly, janaab-i-Asa'd SaaHib said and he was addressing me...
"us ne vaapas aana hai" ka ta'lluq ahl-e-punjaab se aisaa hii hai jaisaa aap ka ALUP se hai :)
By the time this thread came to an end one learnt from Zafar Syed SaaHib and Afzal SaaHib that this kind of construction was quite old, perhaps as much as a century or more. However, no definitive conclusion could be drawn as to who had been using it from the past times and certainly no examples of anyone, poet or prose writer, were cited.
In another thread one of the participants who happens to be an "ahl-i-zabaan" [1] told me that I was somewhat unnecessarily "sensitive" about these matters. Yes, I am very sensitive if what is said is based on hearsay, opinion or conjecture instead of some credible evidence. I therefore request ALUPers, especially Asad and Asa'd SaaHiban to provide, if possible, any literary piece that points in the direction of Punjabi. Merely saying something does not make it true. Would an "ahl-i-zabaan" ever use this kind of construction?
Raj Kumar SaaHib suggested in the same thread to me (tongue in cheek) that the following month's topic ought to be entitled "PunjabiyoN kaa Urdu" and this is the basis of my title for this thread.
[1] I am fully aware that Afzal SaaHib is not keen on bringing the subject of "ahl-i-zabaan" into our discussions. This topic (including Punjabi origins of "baahir") was part of Asad SaaHib's thread and I quote.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.language.urdu.poetry/-Udpp0QKL7Q (Arooz se mutalliq eik sawal)
"ahle zaban roz marra bol chal men bhi aksar "na" ko "naa" bol lete hain".
"Mairay khyaal men Arooz ke pecheeda usool bana dene ki bajaye ek ye usool hona chahiye ke kisi lafz ko jaise koi ahle zabaan uske mahal ke mutabiq bolay usi wazn par baandha jaye. Aap kya kehte hain?"
Please come forward and let us have a meaningful discussion in the true spirit of ALUP.
Naseer
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/$20%22All$20India$20Radio%22$20/alt.language.urdu.poetry/sz3rnwencrg/DkwG3NT_3bkJ
It all started when the following shi3r by Zafar Iqbal was quoted (by Zafar Syed SaaHib) in ALUP.
yih ghar jis kaa hai us ne vaapas aana hai kabhii is meN
isii xaatir dar o deevaar ko chamkaaye rakhte haiN
and I remarked, "kyaa Zafar Iqbal SaaHib kii grammar durust hai? "...use vaapas aanaa hai..."?
In the above mentioned thread to which I have provided a link above, towards the end I said...
"Lady and Gents, aadaab 'arz hai.
I hope to get back to this thread in the not too distant future, not only to respond to some of the points raised but also to round things off, as it were."
It's been more than 7 years! However Asad SaaHib's comment below concerning "baahar vs baahir" has acted as a kind of catalyst to develop this topic (us ne vaapas aanaa hai/maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai) further as well as other matters (in other future threads) where Punjabis are said to be responsible for these constructions.
"Rahi baat 'baahir' aur 'baahar' ki to Urdu bolnay walay 'baahir' nhi bolte. Ye to Punjabi men hota hai (Asad- 12/01/2016)
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.language.urdu.poetry/-Udpp0QKL7Q (Arooz se mutalliq eik sawal)
In the "us ne vaapas aanaa hai kabhii..." thread, Asad SaaHib stated:-
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/$20%22All$20India$20Radio%22$20/alt.language.urdu.poetry/sz3rnwencrg/DkwG3NT_3bkJ
"Though I'm a complete illiterate as far as Urdu is concerned, to my Awadhi/Lakhnavi ears "us ne jaanaa hai" seemed odd. My reaction on coming across a piece of poetry which had the same tarkeeb was that "the poet must be a gentleman belonging to Punjab".
Indeed the poet belongs to the Punjab. But can we infer that this is a Punjabi based construction without any thing to back the assertion? Similarly, janaab-i-Asa'd SaaHib said and he was addressing me...
"us ne vaapas aana hai" ka ta'lluq ahl-e-punjaab se aisaa hii hai jaisaa aap ka ALUP se hai :)
By the time this thread came to an end one learnt from Zafar Syed SaaHib and Afzal SaaHib that this kind of construction was quite old, perhaps as much as a century or more. However, no definitive conclusion could be drawn as to who had been using it from the past times and certainly no examples of anyone, poet or prose writer, were cited.
In another thread one of the participants who happens to be an "ahl-i-zabaan" [1] told me that I was somewhat unnecessarily "sensitive" about these matters. Yes, I am very sensitive if what is said is based on hearsay, opinion or conjecture instead of some credible evidence. I therefore request ALUPers, especially Asad and Asa'd SaaHiban to provide, if possible, any literary piece that points in the direction of Punjabi. Merely saying something does not make it true. Would an "ahl-i-zabaan" ever use this kind of construction?
Raj Kumar SaaHib suggested in the same thread to me (tongue in cheek) that the following month's topic ought to be entitled "PunjabiyoN kaa Urdu" and this is the basis of my title for this thread.
[1] I am fully aware that Afzal SaaHib is not keen on bringing the subject of "ahl-i-zabaan" into our discussions. This topic (including Punjabi origins of "baahir") was part of Asad SaaHib's thread and I quote.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.language.urdu.poetry/-Udpp0QKL7Q (Arooz se mutalliq eik sawal)
"ahle zaban roz marra bol chal men bhi aksar "na" ko "naa" bol lete hain".
"Mairay khyaal men Arooz ke pecheeda usool bana dene ki bajaye ek ye usool hona chahiye ke kisi lafz ko jaise koi ahle zabaan uske mahal ke mutabiq bolay usi wazn par baandha jaye. Aap kya kehte hain?"
Please come forward and let us have a meaningful discussion in the true spirit of ALUP.
Naseer
Message has been deleted
Asad
Jan 15, 2016, 12:26:03 AM1/15/16
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Please add one more example:
it can be called "'nE' ke 2 ghalat istemaalaat"
the other is. 'us ne sharaab pii huii thii' the correct form would be 'us ne sharaab pii rakhii thii'
"us ne kaale kapre pehne huaye the" the correct form would be 'wo kaale kapRe pehne hue tha'
'main kis ke haath pe apna lahuu talaash karun?
tamaam shehr ne pehne hue hain dastanay' (Mustafa Zaidi)
I think 'tamaam shehr hi pehne hue hai dastaanay' would sound better.
regards
Asad
it can be called "'nE' ke 2 ghalat istemaalaat"
the other is. 'us ne sharaab pii huii thii' the correct form would be 'us ne sharaab pii rakhii thii'
"us ne kaale kapre pehne huaye the" the correct form would be 'wo kaale kapRe pehne hue tha'
'main kis ke haath pe apna lahuu talaash karun?
tamaam shehr ne pehne hue hain dastanay' (Mustafa Zaidi)
I think 'tamaam shehr hi pehne hue hai dastaanay' would sound better.
regards
Asad
Naseer
Jan 16, 2016, 7:52:38 AM1/16/16
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"us ne kahaa maiN ne nikaaH nahiiN is kaa paRhaanaa"
Iftikhar Arif from From Jashn-i-Iftikhar Arif III on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9W7aATpLLs 1:00:57
"jis ko kisii kaa Khayaal nahiiN aa rahaa apne 'ilaavah to us ne kyaa karnaa (hai)?"
Iftikhar Arif from Jashn-i-Iftikhar Arif III on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9W7aATpLLs 1:05:08
ALUP friends will no doubt know that Iftikhar Arif SaaHib moved to Pakistan when he was 22 years old.
Naseer
Asad
Jan 16, 2016, 11:04:41 AM1/16/16
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"Punjabi apna asar bahot jaldi char deti hai"
Naseer
Jan 16, 2016, 5:09:46 PM1/16/16
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On Saturday, 16 January 2016 16:04:41 UTC, Asad wrote:
> "Punjabi apna asar bahot jaldi char deti hai"
On Saturday, 16 January 2016 16:04:41 UTC, Asad wrote:
> "Punjabi apna asar bahot jaldi char deti hai"
> Iftikhar aarif sahib ki misaal aap ne "ne" ke ghalat istemaal k lie di.lekin "bahir" par behas ho rahi thi.
>
> Kya Awadhi men "nE" ka aisa istemaal raaij hai?
>
> Aap kisi taqseem se pehle ke matbu'E se misaal dhundh laayen to maanun. >Waise mere ilm men aisi ek misaal hai
muHtaram Asad SaaHib, Urdu-Urdu dikshanariyoN meN do qaabil-i-zikr haiN. ek
"Nur-ul-Lughaat (Vols 1-4 - 1917) hai jis ke mu'allif Nurul Hassan Nayyir Kakorvi haiN. is se pahle 1908 meN janaab-i-Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavi ne "Farhang-i-Asifiyyah" murattab kii jo niiz chaar jildoN par mushtamil hai. jahaaN tak mujhe 3ilm hai in donoN Hazraat tak Punjab kii "baad-i-samuum" nahiiN pahuNchii ho gii!:-)
Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii SaaHib ek kitaab ba-3unvaan "luGhaatunnisaa2" ke musannif haiN jo unhoN ne 1917 meN shaa'i3 kii. us ke duusre hii safHe ke ibtidaa'ii Hisse meN vuh farmaate haiN.
https://archive.org/stream/lughtunnis00amaduoft#page/299/mode/2up
"go aaj se taqriib-an do saal peshtar jo ham ne is luGhaat kii qiimat kaa taxmiinah lagaayaa thaa vuh saaRhe tiin ruupayah fii jild thaa. aur ab jo kaaGhaz kii giraanii ne aaNkheN dikhaa diiN to hamaarii siTTii gum ho ga'ii.
*magar ham ne is kii qiimat baRhaanii thii nah baRhaa'ii.*"
ab aap hii faisilah kar leN kih
1) kyaa yih jumlah "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" kii qabiil kaa hai yaa nahiiN.
2) Kyaa Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii Punjabi the?
3) kyaa un kii zabaan Punjaabii ke zer-i-asar aaluudah thii?
aap kaa xair-xvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
Jan 16, 2016, 5:43:17 PM1/16/16
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"ham ne to nahiiN marnaa hai"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsgFnJi4kjo 12:03
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 1:03:19 AM1/17/16
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Sharar ke novel Hasan Angelina men bhi hai "jab Khuda ne bachana hota hai to yun hota hai" but I consider it a typo..looking for old handwritten copy of the novel.
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 1:03:58 AM1/17/16
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Dilli to Punjab ke bilkul pas waq'e hai ;-)
Naseer
Jan 17, 2016, 1:40:06 AM1/17/16
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On Sunday, 17 January 2016 06:03:19 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Sharar ke novel Hasan Angelina men bhi hai "jab Khuda ne bachana hota hai to yun hota hai" but I consider it a typo..looking for old handwritten copy of the novel.
Perhaps, these are all "typos". All these people never actually said or wrote anything deliberately. They were merely made to say/write due to Punjab's "Havvaa"! It could be that Sharar's character is a Punjabi or Sharar had a dinner with a Punjabi one night and it affected his language. LOL
> Sharar ke novel Hasan Angelina men bhi hai "jab Khuda ne bachana hota hai to yun hota hai" but I consider it a typo..looking for old handwritten copy of the novel.
Summum bukmun 3umyun. fahum laa yarji3uun. Qur'an 2:18
Message has been deleted
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 6:16:04 AM1/17/16
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This applies on you. I value sound evidences. I myself am aware of this sentence in the said novel but the copy available on internet has many typos on each of the page. If you have any printed copy of the said novel and you find that sentence then please tell me. I won't doubt your statement. To form an opinion one should be thoroughly satisfied with the evidence.
There was no sound evidence presented by you on "baahir" as well. The dictionary of women boli too rights it with zabar. I presented a logical argument has to how 'vahir' could have evolved in these words in different dialects. But people instead of presenting counter arguments find it easy to try to prove their point with humiliating behaviour. This only suits those who claim that the know the absolute truth about the matter or it shows desperation.
Hamara tamaskhar ura ke naseer
Na-janay kyun khud maskharay se lagay (li-mu'allifah)
There was no sound evidence presented by you on "baahir" as well. The dictionary of women boli too rights it with zabar. I presented a logical argument has to how 'vahir' could have evolved in these words in different dialects. But people instead of presenting counter arguments find it easy to try to prove their point with humiliating behaviour. This only suits those who claim that the know the absolute truth about the matter or it shows desperation.
Hamara tamaskhar ura ke naseer
Na-janay kyun khud maskharay se lagay (li-mu'allifah)
Naseer
Jan 17, 2016, 6:29:33 AM1/17/16
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"Iftikhar aarif sahib ki misaal aap ne "ne" ke ghalat istemaal k lie di.lekin "bahir" par behas ho rahi thi.
Kya Awadhi men "nE" ka aisa istemaal raaij hai?
** Waise mere ilm men aisi ek misaal hai**"
aap ne vuh misaal pesh kar dii aur us par shak bhii zaahir kar diyaa. bihtar hotaa nah hii yih misaal pesh karte agar is kitaab meN muta3addad aGhlaat haiN.
is bandah-i-Haqiir ne aap kii farmaa'ish par taqsiim se pahle (1917) kii matbuu3ah kitaab ko aap kii nazroN se guzaaraa jo Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii SaaHib jaisii hastii ne likhii thii aur vuh hai bhii a3laa nasta3liiq meN. is ko aap ne Hiqaarat se radd karte hu'e farmaayaa..
"Dilli to Punjab ke bilkul pas waq'e hai ;-)"
apnii shaa3iranah taxliiq ke liye maiN aap kaa mamnuun huuN.
xair-xvaah,
Naseer
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 12:11:43 PM1/17/16
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"Dilli to Punjab ke bilkul pas waq'e hai ;-)" main ne az raah mazaq kaha tha. The wink is an evidence. Baaqi aap se mujhay koi pareshani nhin hai. Aap se behas kafi pur lutf rahi aur dimagh ki kafi arse baad varzish bhi hui.
Sharar ka novel main ne 2010 men shuru kia tha aur tab se main isi taak men tha ke iska koi strong evidence mil jaye! Aap ne summun bukmun shayad is ko typo kehne par kaha jis ke lie men bhi ghalati maanta hun ke mujhay typo samajhne ki waja batani chahye thi.
Rekhta.org par bhi ye novel dastyaab nhin hai. Agar ye mil jaye to meri bhi khatir jama ho jaye
Naseer
Jan 17, 2016, 1:33:59 PM1/17/16
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agar aap az raah-i-mazaaq likhaa hai kih "Dilli to Punjab ke bilkul pas waq'e hai", to kyaa mere is Havaale se yih saabit nahiiN ho jaataa kih taqsiim se pahle bhii (1917) Delhi vaale ahl-i-zabaan "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" isti3maal karte the?
jo Havaalah aap Abdul Haleem Sharar kii kitaab kaa de rahe haiN us meN aisaa jumlah kis safHe par hai?
Naseer
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 1:44:48 PM1/17/16
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Ji haan. Lekin dil ki tasalli ke lie ek se zada misalen matloob hain.
Wo jumla dusre ya teeare safhay par hoga. Shuru keh chand safhay parh daaliye
Wo jumla dusre ya teeare safhay par hoga. Shuru keh chand safhay parh daaliye
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 1:49:31 PM1/17/16
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https://archive.org/details/HasanAnglinaByAbdulHaleemSharar
Is online version men pesh lafz ke baad jab novel shuru hota hai to 5th page ke 2nd paragraph ka aakhri jumla. Is ke mutabiq aapni copy men dekh lejiaye
Is online version men pesh lafz ke baad jab novel shuru hota hai to 5th page ke 2nd paragraph ka aakhri jumla. Is ke mutabiq aapni copy men dekh lejiaye
Raj Kumar
Jan 17, 2016, 2:32:26 PM1/17/16
to
yaaraan-e-maHfil:
is laRii ki baiHs, jahaaN har liHaaz se “mufeed aur dilchasp” hai, vahaaN kisi Had tak “kaThin evam gambheer” bhi hoti jaa rahi hai. Khaaksaar ne socha k agar is baiHs meN thoRi si “lataafat” ghol di jaaye to kyaa harj hai? Hence this post.
jaisa k aap jaante haiN, is laRi ke aek maqaam par Asad sahib ne farmaaya hai k “Punjabi apna asar bahut jaldi chaaRh deti hai”.
un ki is baat se mujhe yaad aaya k jab maiN Canada meN thaa ------- by the way, is it Canada or CaneDa? ------- to mere aek dost (jo Pakistani the aur Hindustan se gaye huye muHaajir bhi) ne mujhe aek limerick sunaaya jo mujhe be-Had pasaNd aaya. ho sakta hai, voh limerick kisi aur ko bhi pasaNd aaye!
to, leejiye, voh limerick Haazir hai:
bas gaye Panjaab meN, ruu’ii ko ruuN kehne lage
dilbaraan-e-Lakhnauu uu’ii ko uuN kehne lage
aaj kal raNg-e-fazaa kuchh aur hai
baat karne kii adaa kuchh aur hai
aap ko tum, tum ko tuu aur tuu ko tuuN kehne lage!!!
yeh alag baat k aaN-Hazrat, yeh limerick sunaate vaqt, kabhi kabhi (jaan buujh kar) “bas gaye” ki bajaaye “phaNs gaye” keh jaate the! ☺
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Naseer
Jan 17, 2016, 2:36:54 PM1/17/16
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On Sunday, 17 January 2016 18:49:31 UTC, Asad wrote:
> https://archive.org/details/HasanAnglinaByAbdulHaleemSharar
>
> Is online version men pesh lafz ke baad jab novel shuru hota hai to 5th page ke 2nd paragraph ka aakhri jumla. Is ke mutabiq aapni copy men dekh lejiaye
janaab-i-Asad SaaHib, aadaab.
> https://archive.org/details/HasanAnglinaByAbdulHaleemSharar
>
> Is online version men pesh lafz ke baad jab novel shuru hota hai to 5th page ke 2nd paragraph ka aakhri jumla. Is ke mutabiq aapni copy men dekh lejiaye
jo online nusxah mujhe milaa hai vuh 3ain vahii hai jis kaa rabt aap ne bhejaa hai.
chaliye is jumle kaa thoRaa tajziyah kar lete haiN.
unhoN ne laakh banduuqeN sarkiiN aur chaaroN taraf gheraa Daal rahe magar hamaaraa kuchh nah kar sake. ***jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.***
***jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.***
When God is going to save someone, this is how it happens.
When God wants to save someone, this is how it happens.
agar kitaab meN aise likhaa hotaa jaise kih aap aur maiN tavaqqu3 rakhte haiN...to is ke do ma3nii liye jaa sakte haiN.
jab xudaa *ko* bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.
1) When God is going to save someone, this is how it happens.
2) When God is to be saved (na3uuzu bi_llaah), this is how it happens.
siyaaq-o-sibaaq ke mutaabiq to pahle ma3nii hii lenaa chaahiyeN. lekin aap ko maan_naa paRe gaa kih duusre ma3nii bhii liye jaa sakte haiN.
agar aap xudaa kii jagah kisii shaxs kaa naam Daal deN to..
jab Naseer *ko* bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.
When Naseer wants to rescue someone, this is what happens
When Naseer is to be rescued, this is what happens.
aap kaa kyaa xayaal hai.
Naseer
Naseer
Jan 17, 2016, 2:45:15 PM1/17/16
to
On Sunday, 17 January 2016 18:44:48 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Ji haan. Lekin dil ki tasalli ke lie ek se zada misalen matloob hain.
>
> Wo jumla dusre ya teeare safhay par hoga. Shuru keh chand safhay parh daaliye
to goyaa Iftikhar Arif, Ubaidullah Baig aur Maulavii Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii kii sanad kaafii nahiiN aur yih tiin ek se ziyaadah nahiiN? agar aap Devanagri paRh sakte haiN to maiN aap ko ek Banaaras vaale kii tasniif se misaal bhii de saktaa huuN.
> Ji haan. Lekin dil ki tasalli ke lie ek se zada misalen matloob hain.
>
> Wo jumla dusre ya teeare safhay par hoga. Shuru keh chand safhay parh daaliye
Naseer
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 2:52:27 PM1/17/16
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"Ko" ke saath yeh mushkil aa sakti hai. "Ne" ke sath to 1st matlab hi lia jaye ga. Main khud ye maanta hun ke ba'az jumlon men "ne" zada vazeh mafhoom pesh karta hai.
Agar man len ke "ne" ghalat hai to jumla yun likhen ge:
"Agar khuda bachana chahta hai tab aisa hi hota hai"
Mehaz "ne" ko "ko" se nhi badla ja skta
Agar man len ke "ne" ghalat hai to jumla yun likhen ge:
"Agar khuda bachana chahta hai tab aisa hi hota hai"
Mehaz "ne" ko "ko" se nhi badla ja skta
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 3:04:04 PM1/17/16
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Qataee taur par to tab hi qaail hounga jab adab men iski misaal paa luun.
Lekin ab bhi ye to maan geya gun keh "ne" ka istemaal na-pasandeedah sahi ghalat nhin hai
Lekin ab bhi ye to maan geya gun keh "ne" ka istemaal na-pasandeedah sahi ghalat nhin hai
Naseer
Jan 17, 2016, 3:38:25 PM1/17/16
to
On Sunday, 17 January 2016 20:04:04 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Qataee taur par to tab hi qaail hounga jab adab men iski misaal paa luun.
>
> Lekin ab bhi ye to maan geya gun keh "ne" ka istemaal na-pasandeedah sahi ghalat nhin hai
Asad SaaHib, tasliimaat.
> Qataee taur par to tab hi qaail hounga jab adab men iski misaal paa luun.
>
> Lekin ab bhi ye to maan geya gun keh "ne" ka istemaal na-pasandeedah sahi ghalat nhin hai
pasandiidah ho yaa naa-pasandiidah, asl baat yih hai kih kyaa yih Urdu grammar ke liHaaz se Ghalat hai yaa kih nahiiN. do jadiid naHviyoN kii tasniifaat kaa maiN pahle zikr kar chukaa huuN, ek Ruth Laila Schmidt (Urdu- An Essential Grammar) jin ke mutaabiq Dillii vaale ise Ghalat gardaante haiN aur duusre C.M. Na'im (An Introductory Urdu) jin ke mutaabiq donoN tarzeN qaabil-i-qubuul haiN. C.M. Na'im SaaHib kaa Barabanki se ta3alluq hai.
aap kii tarH aur bhii "ne" vaalii tarz ko PunjabiyoN kii den bataate haiN jabkih xud Punjabi meN aise jumloN meN "ne" kaa vujuud sire se hii nahiiN. merii aur mere ek dost kii muxtasar "taHqiiq" se hameN patah chalaa hai kih Urdu vaale jin kii zabaan par hameN naaz hai aur honaa bhii chaahiye vuh bhii is tarkiib ko isti3maal karte haiN aur in kii misaaleN maiN aap aur diigar aHbaab ke saamne pesh kar chukaa huuN jo Dillii, Lucknow aur Rampur jaise duur-daraaz shahroN se haiN. jaisaa kih maiN 3arz kar chukaa huuN maiN ek Banaaras meN paidaa hu'e shaxs kii bhii misaal de saktaa huuN.
merii Haqiir raa'e meN maiN ne yih saabit kar diyaa hai kih is tarkiib ne Punjab se janam nahiiN liyaa hai aur use ahl-i-zabaan bhii bart_te haiN aur bart_te aa'e haiN...kaafii 3arse se. aage ko'ii maane yaa nah maane.
Naseer
Asad
Jan 17, 2016, 10:58:31 PM1/17/16
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urdu ke lie Delhi ki taraf dekhna kya theek na hoga? Meer Amman bhi apni zaban ki sehat ki sanad dilli se ta'alluq honay ki deti hain. Rajab Ali Beg bhi. Urdu e Mu'alla bhi Delhi men tha aur urdu e mualla ki zabaan bhi Delhi hi ki zabaan hai. Agar Delhi walay ghalat samajhte hain to ye bari daleel hai.
Iftakhar Arif aur Obaidullah Beg sahib ke "ne" ke istemaal par mujhay shaaiba yun hai keh jaisa aap ne kaha keh Obaidullah sahib Rampur se hain. To arz hai keh mere baray bhi rampur se hijrat kar ke aaye aur unko "ne" ka ye istemaal sakht nagawar lagta tha. To is lie rampur ki shahadat to mere pas hai. Is lie mujhay nahin lagta keh obaidullah sahab ne sarf o nahv ke qawaneen zehn men rakh kar "ne" ka ye istemaal kia hoga.
Aur Jo aap ne kaha Punjabi men "ne" ka aisa koi istemaal nahin hai...ye to bari jasarat ki baat hai
Iftakhar Arif aur Obaidullah Beg sahib ke "ne" ke istemaal par mujhay shaaiba yun hai keh jaisa aap ne kaha keh Obaidullah sahib Rampur se hain. To arz hai keh mere baray bhi rampur se hijrat kar ke aaye aur unko "ne" ka ye istemaal sakht nagawar lagta tha. To is lie rampur ki shahadat to mere pas hai. Is lie mujhay nahin lagta keh obaidullah sahab ne sarf o nahv ke qawaneen zehn men rakh kar "ne" ka ye istemaal kia hoga.
Aur Jo aap ne kaha Punjabi men "ne" ka aisa koi istemaal nahin hai...ye to bari jasarat ki baat hai
mirza badil nairang
Jan 18, 2016, 2:47:35 AM1/18/16
to
jab goalie ko bachanaa hotaa hai to wo sar dhar ki baazii lagaa daita hai.
Naseer
Jan 18, 2016, 4:37:42 AM1/18/16
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jii haaN jasaarat baRii soch-samajh ke ba3d kii hai. 3inaayat ho gii agar aap is jumle kaa Punjabi meN tarjamah kar deN.
mujhe vahaaN jaanaa hai.
shukriyah.
Naseer
asad...@gmail.com
Jan 18, 2016, 6:50:11 AM1/18/16
to
main kya meri bisaat kya? Obaidullah sahab ka main ne kaha raampur ke hain to mere baRe bhi rampur ke hain jinke kaan is istemaal se navaqif the.
baat vahiin aan pohnchi, main 'ne' ke is istemaal ki mazeed shahadaten chaahun ga. kisii shaair ke kalam ya kisii musannif ki kitab main.
jin do pakisatani shakhsiyyaat ka aap ne zikr kia unhin ki kisii kitaab main dhundh laayen..yaqeenan wo aisa kabhi nahin likhen ge. jab aap pakistan ki baat karte hain to aap se jaan lejiaye keh, yahan 65% log punjabi bolte hain, aur tv jo har ghar men har waqt cheekhta chinghaarta rehta hai us main taqreeban 80% numaindagi inhin ki hai...aur jo baaqi bache hain unhon ne bhi isi ko apnaya hai. to ye tarkeeben insaan ke la-shauur main beth jati hain. khud main bhi aksar 'ne' ka ye istemaal karta hun, lekin theek maan kar nahin.
khair, apne is jumle ko punjabi main tarjuma karne ki zarurat nhin hai kiunkay ye jumla 'ne' ke us istemaaal ke sath nahin hai jiska ham zikr kar rhe hain.
agar main kahun ke 'abhi Asad ko school bhi jana hai" to iska kya tarjuma hoga punjabi main?
Naseer
Jan 18, 2016, 9:14:24 AM1/18/16
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pahle maiN aap se aaxirii baar puuchhnaa chaahuuN gaa kih Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavi kii navishtah shahaadat aap nazar andaaz karte reheN ge yaa kih aap ke xayaal meN is Dillii vaale par bhii us bhaarii Punjabi aksariyyat kaa vahii naa-guziir asar thaa jo kih aaj kii aqalliyyat par hai?
dil-chaspii kii baat hai kih jo zabaan maiN bachpan meN boltaa thaa us par kisii aur zabaan kii grammar kaa asar nahiiN paRaa. saath hii mere saath rahne vaale aNgrez jo "We was going" kahte haiN un kii vajh se maiN ne laa-shu3uurii taur par bhii un kii taqliid nahiiN kii! xair...nah jaane ahl-i-Urdu itnii jaldii kyoN is Punjabi jaal meN aa phaNste haiN. Hairaan huuN maiN!
Hindustaan ke media meN bhii yih sab tarkiibeN sun_ne aur paRhne meN aatii haiN jin kii ALUP par in dinoN baHs ho rahii hai. kamaal hai PunjabiyoN kaa! is par to ek shi3r yaad aa rahaa hai. mumkin hai kih maiN ise Ghalat quote kar rahaa huuN.
dil ko be-taabiyoN ne luuT liyaa
diin WahaabiyoN ne luuT liyaa
raat qissah sunaa ke RaaNjhe kaa
ham ko PanjaabiyoN ne luuT liyaa!:)
(Syed Inshaullah Khan Insha?)
maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai
maiN othe jaaNRaa e
ab aap bataaiye is Punjabi jumle meN "ne" kahaaN hai?
ek aur dil-chaspii kii baat. ahl-i-zabaan chaahe kitnii hii xaraab Urdu boleN yaa likheN to is meN ko'ii 3aib nahiiN gardaanaa jaataa. lekin PunjabiyoN kii farzii taraakiib (maiN ne jaanaa hai/aap mere paas aa'o/baahir vaGhairah) in par bahut naa-gavaar guzartii haiN jab kih yih xud inhiiN taraakiib ko isti3maal karte haiN, taHriir-o-guftaar meN. bhaa'ii jaan, ta3assub kii bhii ko'ii Had hotii hai. (misaal ke taur par agar maiN diigar alfaaz ko nazar-andaaz karte hu'e "sift" kahuuN yaa likhuuN to pahaaR TuuTne kaa xatrah hai!
shaayad yih shi3r Akbar Ilahabadi ne PunjabiyoN hii kii sitam-zariifii par likhaa hai.
ham aah bhii karte haiN to ho jaate haiN badnaam
vuh qatl bhi karte haiN to charchaa nahiiN hotaa
Akbar Ilahabadi
..............
"baat vahiin aan pohnchi, main 'ne' ke is istemaal ki mazeed shahadaten chaahun ga. kisii shaair ke kalam ya kisii musannif ki kitab main.
A. maiN tumheN kaafii pilaataa huuN. baRii zabardast! chalo uTho!
B. main nahiiN jaa'uuN gii.
A. do ghaNTe meN tumhaaraa daftar bhaag to nahiiN jaa'e gaa!
B. main ne nahiiN jaanaa
Naseer
mirza badil nairang
Jan 18, 2016, 11:38:39 AM1/18/16
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In a play a writer may use the language her characters (time, area, class) will use and may not reflect her own usage. Aik nuqtah chini jo Ashfaq Ahmad per rahi wo yeh thi ke unke character wo zubaaN istaimal nahiN kartay jo wo aam zindagi main karain gay aur kisi professor ki zubaan boltay hain.
>
> Naseer
mirza badil nairang
Jan 18, 2016, 3:34:04 PM1/18/16
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ناو وا چہ می نے نے
Asad
Jan 19, 2016, 2:01:14 AM1/19/16
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Naseer sahab.
Pehle to main ye keh dun keh main is behas main hissa kisi nasli ya elaqaee ta'assub ki wajah se nahin balkay ilm-e-lissaan main apni dilchaspi ke baa'is le raha hun.
Syed Ahmad Dehalvi ko nazr andaaz kiun karun? main to bas ye keh raha hun keh ek shahaadat ko authority nahin maana jaa sakta. Sharar ke kisi mustanad nuskhe se ye shahadat mil jaye to main apni behas idhar hi khatm kar dun ga.
kiunkay main ne bhi ye novel aaj se kaee saal pehle kisi aisi hi behas main kisi ko dikhaya tha to unhon ne ye keh kar rad kia keh ye typo hoga.
Insha Allah Khan ka sher yun hai (Rekhta.org ke mutabiq):
dil-e-sitam zada betaabiyon ne luuT lia
hamaray qible ko vahabion ne luut lia
kahani ek sunai jo heer ranjhay ki
to ahl-e-dard ko punjabion ne luut lia
ab baat zara dhyaan se sunen. Madri zabaan koi apni maa se nahin seekhta balkay gird-o-pesh ke mahol ka bhi us men bahut bara haath hota hai. main ye nahin keh raha ke punjabion se ham ne unki grammar le li..balkay jaise urdu punjabion ne boli wo sun sun kar ham ne bhi seekh li. haan agar hamko ye pata hota keh ye urdu nahin punjabi bol rahe hain to ham na seekhte. aur phir bazaron men school men daftaron main yahin boli boli jaye to aap ki zabaan ki sehat kahan tak theek rahe gi. ji agar aap apne urdu bolne walay mahol main sin-e-sha'oor ko pohnche hon to aap ko ye pata hoga keh ye ham nahin bolte the. lekin roz marrah bol chaal se aap ki zabaan kabhi kabhi phisal zaruur pare gi.
Haseena Moeen Sahiba ne bhi to apni ta'leem rawalpindi aur lahore ke idaron main paee hai. Mirza Badil ka argument is lie ghalat hai keh is dramay main urdu bolnay walay hi dikhaye gaye hain.
Asad
Jan 19, 2016, 2:22:21 AM1/19/16
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mirza badil nairang
Jan 19, 2016, 4:42:11 AM1/19/16
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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 11:32:26 AM UTC-8, Raj Kumar wrote:
> yaaraan-e-maHfil:
>
> is laRii ki baiHs, jahaaN har liHaaz se “mufeed aur dilchasp” hai, vahaaN kisi Had tak “kaThin evam gambheer” bhi hoti jaa rahi hai. Khaaksaar ne socha k agar is baiHs meN thoRi si “lataafat” ghol di jaaye to kyaa harj hai? Hence this post.
>
> jaisa k aap jaante haiN, is laRi ke aek maqaam par Asad sahib ne farmaaya hai k “Punjabi apna asar bahut jaldi chaaRh deti hai”.
>
The asar goes both or many ways in all languages. Urdu has taken a lot asar from many languages and that is probably what made it a more used language. It is still a relatively young language and there is nothing like borrowing to grow quickly for a young language. Panjabi too has taken a lot of Urdu asar and in some areas has resulted in forms which can be for practical purposes of communication considered the same language. Basically taking on almost the entire Urdu vocabulary.
> yaaraan-e-maHfil:
>
> is laRii ki baiHs, jahaaN har liHaaz se “mufeed aur dilchasp” hai, vahaaN kisi Had tak “kaThin evam gambheer” bhi hoti jaa rahi hai. Khaaksaar ne socha k agar is baiHs meN thoRi si “lataafat” ghol di jaaye to kyaa harj hai? Hence this post.
>
> jaisa k aap jaante haiN, is laRi ke aek maqaam par Asad sahib ne farmaaya hai k “Punjabi apna asar bahut jaldi chaaRh deti hai”.
>
This sharp distinction of languages simply does not exist. We can say currently Urdu is closer to English than French (in vocabulary but French may be close in some features of a language) now but this is purely for historical reasons and future conditions may reverse this. For similar reasons Panjabi has been affected by Urdu (and vice versa). All regular schools teach Urdu in schools in Panjab (in Pakistan) but Panjabi is not taught. In fact never saw a Panjabi text book (though did have Sindhi as a subject in schools in Karachi. In fact that was new back then. I remember it did not used to be taught and then one year it was decided schools will start) Similarly many households have in a generation or two moved to Urdu as a first language at home.
And these are not recent things. Reading quli qutab shah sometimes one wonders is it Panjabi or Urdu.
Asad
Jan 19, 2016, 5:48:07 AM1/19/16
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aap ne jo likha us se yaad aya keh Inayat Ali Khan sab ne bhi apne zareefana kalam main ye qat'a likha:
mere sakool se le jaayen apne bete ko
jo kaam den ye use ghalt salt karta hai
ise to theek se urdu talak nahin aati
lafaz lafaz ka to tulfaz ye ghalt karta hai ;-)
Naseer
Jan 19, 2016, 6:34:54 AM1/19/16
to
jab maiN ne ta3assub kaa zikr kiyaa to vuh infiraadii nuqtah-i-nazar se nahiiN kahaa balkih ijtimaa3ii ta'assur se jis kaa nishaanah hameshah Punjabi hote haiN aur vuh bhii kisii taHqiiq ke ba-Ghair. Sindhi aur Pashto bolne vaaloN kaa asar bhii Urdu bolne vaaloN par honaa chaahiye. aaj tak maiN ne yih kabhii nahiiN sunaa kih paxtuunoN ne Urdu par yih sitam Dhaayaa hai aur SindhiyoN ne yih. haaN yaad aa gayaa. Punjabi meN ek xaasiyyat hai apnii taraf raaGib karne kii jo maraaThii, Gujrati, Bangla, Telugu vaGhairah meN nahiiN.
mujhe ummiid/umed/umaid hai kih in mabaaHis ke anjaam tak aap bhii apnii raa'e badalne par majbuur ho jaa'eN ge.
shi3r kii asl suurat pesh karne liye maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN.
yih bi_lkul durust hai kih bachche kii zabaan par us kii maaN ke 3ilaavah us ke maaHaul kaa bhii asar hotaa hai. lekin Asad SaaHib Iftikhar Arif SaaHib ne 22 saal Luknow meN guzaare haiN aur un kii zabaan us vaqt tak to zaruur puxtah ho ga'ii ho gii.
"ne" Punjabi meN naa-paid nahiiN aur aisaa maiN ne kahaa bhii nahiiN. lekin jis jumle kii baat ho rahii hai us meN "ne" isti3maal nahiiN hotaa. shaxs-i-sivvum meN bhii "ne" ke ba-Ghair bhii bolaa jaa saktaa hai.
hameN/ ham ne Lahore jaanaa hai.....asaaN/asiiN Lhore jaaNRaa e
"Syed Ahmad Dehalvi ko nazr andaaz kiun karun? main to bas ye keh raha hun keh ek shahaadat ko authority nahin maana jaa sakta. Sharar ke kisi mustanad nuskhe se ye shahadat mil jaye to main apni behas idhar hi khatm kar dun ga."
1635 meN Mulla Asadullah Wajhi ne "Sabras" kii tasniif kii. Baabaa-i-Urdu, janaab-i-Abdul Haq ne ise 1932 meN apnii nigraanii meN Aurangabad se shaa'i3 kiyaa. aap safHah no. 182 kaa mulaahazah kiijiye.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201829284/Sabras-Mulla-Wajhi-Dakkani-Urdu
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa Darnaa"
so mere bhaa'ii yih isti3maal to Urdu vaale sadiyoN se kar rahe haiN. is meN Punjabi-biraadarii ko GhasiiTnaa kyaa naa-insaafii nahiiN hai? kyaa kam az kam aap ke nazdiik vuh ab bariiuz_zimmah haiN?
xair-xvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
Jan 19, 2016, 7:00:58 AM1/19/16
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Asad SaaHib, mu3aaf kiijiye gaa. maiN ne iqtibaas Ghalat kiyaa hai.
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa Darnaa"
ise yuuN honaa chaahiye thaa.
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa"
Naseer
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa Darnaa"
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa"
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Jan 19, 2016, 4:56:27 PM1/19/16
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On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:48:07 AM UTC-8, Asad wrote:
> On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 12:32:26 AM UTC+5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > jaisa k aap jaante haiN, is laRi ke aek maqaam par Asad sahib ne farmaaya hai k "Punjabi apna asar bahut jaldi chaaRh deti hai".
> > un ki is baat se mujhe yaad aaya k jab maiN Canada meN thaa ------- by the way, is it Canada or CaneDa? ------- to mere aek dost (jo Pakistani the aur Hindustan se gaye huye muHaajir bhi) ne mujhe aek limerick sunaaya jo mujhe be-Had pasaNd aaya. ho sakta hai, voh limerick kisi aur ko bhi pasaNd aaye!
> > to, leejiye, voh limerick Haazir hai:
> >
> > bas gaye Panjaab meN, ruu'ii ko ruuN kehne lage
> > dilbaraan-e-Lakhnauu uu'ii ko uuN kehne lage
> > aaj kal raNg-e-fazaa kuchh aur hai
> > baat karne kii adaa kuchh aur hai
> > aap ko tum, tum ko tuu aur tuu ko tuuN kehne lage!!!
----------
> On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 12:32:26 AM UTC+5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > jaisa k aap jaante haiN, is laRi ke aek maqaam par Asad sahib ne farmaaya hai k "Punjabi apna asar bahut jaldi chaaRh deti hai".
> > un ki is baat se mujhe yaad aaya k jab maiN Canada meN thaa ------- by the way, is it Canada or CaneDa? ------- to mere aek dost (jo Pakistani the aur Hindustan se gaye huye muHaajir bhi) ne mujhe aek limerick sunaaya jo mujhe be-Had pasaNd aaya. ho sakta hai, voh limerick kisi aur ko bhi pasaNd aaye!
> > to, leejiye, voh limerick Haazir hai:
> >
> > bas gaye Panjaab meN, ruu'ii ko ruuN kehne lage
> > dilbaraan-e-Lakhnauu uu'ii ko uuN kehne lage
> > aaj kal raNg-e-fazaa kuchh aur hai
> > baat karne kii adaa kuchh aur hai
> > aap ko tum, tum ko tuu aur tuu ko tuuN kehne lage!!!
> Janab Raj Kumar sahab.
>
> aap ne jo likha us se yaad aaya keh Inayat Ali Khan saab ne bhi apne zareefana kalam main ye qat'a likha:
> mere sakool se le jaayen apne bete ko
> jo kaam den ye use ghalt salt karta hai
> ise to theek se urdu talak nahin aati
> lafaz lafaz ka to tulfaz ye ghalt karta hai ;-)
du'aa-go, Raj Kumar
vij...@gmail.com
Jan 20, 2016, 9:07:27 AM1/20/16
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Raj sahib, agar chih aap Asad sahib se muKhatib haiN, maiN aik baat arz karuuN, balki bataur aik sawaal puuchhuN, to ummiid hai voh bura nahiiN maaneN ge.
agar ham 'talfuz' ke 'tal' ko 'pal' (moment) ke wazn se aur 'fuz' ko 'juz' ke wazn se paRhen, to kya misra 'to' ke saath bhii wazn meN nahiiN?
Regards,
Vijay
agar ham 'talfuz' ke 'tal' ko 'pal' (moment) ke wazn se aur 'fuz' ko 'juz' ke wazn se paRhen, to kya misra 'to' ke saath bhii wazn meN nahiiN?
Regards,
Vijay
vij...@gmail.com
Jan 20, 2016, 9:50:57 AM1/20/16
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Asad
Jan 21, 2016, 4:52:52 AM1/21/16
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ye misra Inayat Ali Khan sahab ne aise hi kaha tha. Shayad aap 'tulfaz' ko ghalati se 'tulafaz' parh gaye
Naseer
Jan 21, 2016, 10:16:12 AM1/21/16
to
janaab-i-Asad SaaHib.
kyaa aap ko merii 19 janvarii vaalii posT dekhne kaa mauqa3 milaa hai?
Naseer
kyaa aap ko merii 19 janvarii vaalii posT dekhne kaa mauqa3 milaa hai?
Naseer
asad...@gmail.com
Jan 22, 2016, 1:36:02 AM1/22/16
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main bhi hairaan tha ke aapne javaab nahin likha..lekin meri ghalti keh main nay dekha hi nahin
"shaxs-i-sivvum meN bhii "ne" ke ba-Ghair bhii bolaa jaa saktaa hai.
hameN/ ham ne Lahore jaanaa hai.....asaaN/asiiN Lhore jaaNRaa e "
"1635 meN Mulla Asadullah Wajhi ne "Sabras" kii tasniif kii. Baabaa-i-Urdu, janaab-i-Abdul Haq ne ise 1932 meN apnii nigraanii meN Aurangabad se shaa'i3 kiyaa. aap safHah no. 182 kaa mulaahazah kiijiye.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201829284/Sabras-Mulla-Wajhi-Dakkani-Urdu
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa Darnaa" "
"aaj tak maiN ne yih kabhii nahiiN sunaa kih paxtuunoN ne Urdu par yih sitam Dhaayaa hai aur SindhiyoN ne yih. haaN yaad aa gayaa. Punjabi meN ek xaasiyyat hai apnii taraf raaGib karne kii jo maraaThii, Gujrati, Bangla, Telugu vaGhairah meN nahiiN. "
In Punjab: "aap beshak yahaan beth kar intezaar kar len"
In Sindh: "(with or without saaiiN) aap bhale yahaan beth kar intezaar kar len"
Naseer
Jan 22, 2016, 6:23:36 AM1/22/16
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aap ne ba-jaa farmaayaa kih merii dii ga'ii misaal shaxs-i-sivvum kii nahii thii. liijiye....shaxs-i-sivvum Haazir hai!
unheN/un ko/unhoN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai
ohnaaN othe jaaNRaa e
yih durust hai kih Punjab vaaloN se Urdu bolte/likhte vaqt bahut sii laGhzisheN sar-zad hotii haiN jin meN aksar (nahiiN tamaam) kaa vuh sadd-i-baab bhii kar sakte haiN. merii Haqiir raa'e meN aksar in GhalatiyoN/xaamiyoN se shaayad vaaqif bhii nah hoN ge. lekin yaad rakhiye gaa kih Urdu un kii maadarii zabaan nahiiN. un se yih tavaqqu3 nahiiN kii jaa saktii kih vuh DaaGh yaa Amir Minai yaa Vajid Ali Shah jaisii shustah zabaan boleN. haaN mujh jaisaa shaxs paRhe likhe ahl-i-zabaan se yih ummiid rakh saktaa hai kih kam az kam vuh to achchhii Urdu boleN ge. lekin afsos sad afsos aise log aaTe meN namak ke baraabar hoN ge! Punjabi kisii Had tak qaabil-i-mu3aafii haiN lekin aksar ahl-i-zabaan nahiiN, xaas taur pih jab vuh duusroN kii zabaan ko Ghalat hone kaa da3vaa karte haiN aur xud bolte vaqt Ghalatii par Ghalatii kiye jaate haiN.
jo misaal aap ne "be-shak" ke Ghalat isti3maal kii dii hai us se maiN ba-xuubii vaaqif huuN. ek duusre forum meN is kaa zikr chhiRaa aur ek shirkat-kunindah ne, jis kaa ta3alluq Bharat se hai, yih likhaa...
"Anyway, it's used like this all the time in Hindi and I see it written often too. It has a conversational nuance, so you're not likely to see it in an article on a grave issue.
This was actually the way I first learnt to use this word . It wasn't until much later (like this year, haha) that I learnt the "certainly,without doubt" meaning."
jaisaa kih maiN pahle 3arz kar chukaa huuN, PunjabiyoN ke 3ilaavah aur bhii "zabaan-biraadariyaaN" haiN jo aisii GhalatiyaaN karte haiN lekin, nah jaane kyoN, maurad-i-ilzaam sirf Punjabi hii Thahraa'e jaate haiN. is zimn meN aap kii "be-shak" vaalii misaal ba-taur-i-subuut pesh kii jaa saktii hai.
aap ne farmaayaa hai kih 1635 meN Urdu kaa naam-o-nishaan bhii nahiiN thaa! yih durust hai kih "Urdu" naam us vaaqt raa'ij nahii thaa aur Hindi/Hindavi vaGhairah is zabaan ke liye 3aam naam the. lekin Urdu daanish-var is amr par muttafiq haiN kih yahii Hindi/Hindavi ba3d meN Urdu kahlaa'ii. is mantiq ke liHaaz se Dakkani bhii Urdu kii ek shakl hai.
aap ke mutaabiq yih Dakkani Urdu aur KhaRi-Boli do alag zabaaneN thiiN aur yih kih us vaqt (1435) meN aaxiru_zzikr meN ko'ii kaam kii chiiz nahiiN likhii ga'ii thii. yih durust hai kih Dakkan vaale Delhi aur us ke gird-o-pesh 3ilaaqoN kii zabaan se har sinf meN sabqat le ga'e the aur vuh is xvaab-i-Ghaflat se tab jaage jab Vali Dakkani kii Delhi meN aamad hu'ii.
lekin kyaa Dakkani Urdu mariix se naazil hu'ii thii? ji nahiiN, use Delhi vaale apne saath us vaqt laa'e the jab Muhammad Bin TuGhlaq ne 1337 ke lag-bhag apne daar-ul-Khilafah Delhi ko Dakkan meN muntaqil karne kaa faisilah kiyaa aur sirf itnaa hii nahiiN, apne saath Delhi kii aabaadii ko bhii jabar-an le jaayaa gayaa. yih ek taariixii Haqiiqat hai. is safar ke dauraan bahut se logoN kii jaaneN ga'iiN aur Dehli ek muddat tak viiran rahaa. in Delhi vaaloN kii zabaan maqaamii zer-i-asar se ghul-mil kar ba3d meN Dakkani kii shakl ixtiyaar kar ga'ii jis meN taqriib-an har sinf meN adab likhaa jaane lagaa.
meraa nazriyyah apnii jagah par qaa'im hai. "maiN ne jaanaa hai" Urdu vaaloN kii apnii hii "iijaad" hai. yih tarkiib Delhi se junuub meN ga'ii aur vahaaN ke ek musannif (Mullah Vajhi) kii maayah-naaz tasniif "Sabras" meN maiN ne us kaa namuunah pesh kar diyaa hai. maiN ek misaal Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavii ke qalam se pahle hii de chukaa huuN.
mujhe 3ilm hai kih jo baat ek "Gospel" kii tarH maan lii ga'ii ho use radd karnaa aap aur diigar dostoN ke liye itnaa aasaan nahiiN ho saktaa. lekiN Haqaa'iq bhii ko'ii Haisiyyat rakhte haiN.
aap kaa muxlis,
Naseer
Asad
Jan 22, 2016, 12:06:10 PM1/22/16
to
Janab Naseer sahab!
Main hargiz punjabion se urdu ko Madri zaban ki tarha bolne ki umeed nhi rakhta aur na ye mumkin hai. Meri un se kuch aur shikayat hai Jo is forum ka mauzuu nahin hai. Aap chahen he to arz kar dunga.
Punjabi ki Jo misaal di wo zabardasti ki lagti hai. Is tarz par to "ne" ki pehli qisam main hota hai. Maslan "unhon ne kaha" ko to "unhan aakheya" kehen ge lekin "unko kehna hai" to "unhan ne kehna ae" hoga. Aap ka jumla itna meyari nhi laga.
'Beshak' ke istemal ka qasoorvaar men kisi ko nahin thehra rha sirf ye bata raha hun keh main ne sindhion ko achi urdu bolte suna. Jaisa ke aap keh rahe the ke sindhion ko ilzaam kiun nahin dia jata.
Bilkul theek kaha keh na'e sire se dilli basaii gaii thi..lekin kuch to farq para hi hoga jabhi to ham Amir Khusro ki tahreeron aur Dakhini ki grammar men itna farq paate hain. Kya ye sab grammar ki mumtaazian dehli ki zabaan men bhi kabhi thiin? Aur thiin bhi to ab nahin hai. Urdu to bohat naee hai. Ab to main matrookaat ka bhi faaeda utha sakta hun ;-)
Main hargiz punjabion se urdu ko Madri zaban ki tarha bolne ki umeed nhi rakhta aur na ye mumkin hai. Meri un se kuch aur shikayat hai Jo is forum ka mauzuu nahin hai. Aap chahen he to arz kar dunga.
Punjabi ki Jo misaal di wo zabardasti ki lagti hai. Is tarz par to "ne" ki pehli qisam main hota hai. Maslan "unhon ne kaha" ko to "unhan aakheya" kehen ge lekin "unko kehna hai" to "unhan ne kehna ae" hoga. Aap ka jumla itna meyari nhi laga.
'Beshak' ke istemal ka qasoorvaar men kisi ko nahin thehra rha sirf ye bata raha hun keh main ne sindhion ko achi urdu bolte suna. Jaisa ke aap keh rahe the ke sindhion ko ilzaam kiun nahin dia jata.
Bilkul theek kaha keh na'e sire se dilli basaii gaii thi..lekin kuch to farq para hi hoga jabhi to ham Amir Khusro ki tahreeron aur Dakhini ki grammar men itna farq paate hain. Kya ye sab grammar ki mumtaazian dehli ki zabaan men bhi kabhi thiin? Aur thiin bhi to ab nahin hai. Urdu to bohat naee hai. Ab to main matrookaat ka bhi faaeda utha sakta hun ;-)
Naseer
Jan 22, 2016, 3:35:22 PM1/22/16
to
jii haaN ko'ii bhii shaxs 3ain kisii duusre shaxs kii zabaan ixtiyaar kar saktaa hai. ba-alfaaz-i-diigar, ek Punjabi kisii bhii achchhe se achchhe Urdu bolne vaale (ahl-i-zabaan...agar ko'ii haiN:-)) kii tarH bolne kii qudrat rakhtaa hai. lekin yih ek alag baHs hai. (nah jaane Faisalabad meN rahte hu'e Zia Mohyiddin SaaHib Punjabi ke siHr se bach nikle!
mujhe yuuN maHsuus hotaa hai kih aap yih maan_ne ke liye taiyyar nahiiN haiN kih "maiN ne jaanaa hai" qism kii tarkiib Urdu bolne vaaloN kii paidaavaar hai. yih aap kaa Haq hai. lekin agar ko'ii bhii Ghair jaanib-daar shaxs is laRii ko dekhe gaa to vuh usii natiije par pahuNche gaa jahaaN maiN pauNchaa huuN aur jis ke dalaa'il maiN pahle hii pesh kar chukaa huuN.
aap ne is laRii meN Hissah liyaa, maiN us ke liye aap kaa shukr -guzaar huuN kih aap ne apnaa qiimatii vaqt yahaaN sarf kiyaa.
agar is silsile meN mujhe maziid mavaad mayassar hu'aa to maiN yahaaN zaruur use shaamil karuuN gaa, go us kii chandaaN zaruurat nahiiN.
aap kaa muxlis
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Jan 22, 2016, 6:06:42 PM1/22/16
to
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 6:07:27 AM UTC-8, vij...@gmail.com wrote:
> mere sakool se le jaayen apne bete ko
> jo kaam den ye use ghalt salt karta hai
> ise to theek se urdu talak nahin aati
> lafaz lafaz ka to tulfaz ye ghalt karta hai ;-)
***Beautiful, Asad saahib, beautiful! yahaaN "Ghalt salt" ne, "lafaz lafaz" ne aur "tulafaz" ne to hameN luuT hi liyaa! goyaa, aap ka yeh quote-karda qit'a paRh kar hameN lutf to aayaa hi; phir bhi, aap aek kaam keejiye --- is qit'e ke chauthe misr'e meN se lafz "to" ko nikaal deejiye --- kyuuN-k yeh lafz is achchhe-bhale misr'e ko Khaarij-az-baHr kar rahaa ha! :(
du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***
> mere sakool se le jaayen apne bete ko
> jo kaam den ye use ghalt salt karta hai
> ise to theek se urdu talak nahin aati
> lafaz lafaz ka to tulfaz ye ghalt karta hai ;-)
***Beautiful, Asad saahib, beautiful! yahaaN "Ghalt salt" ne, "lafaz lafaz" ne aur "tulafaz" ne to hameN luuT hi liyaa! goyaa, aap ka yeh quote-karda qit'a paRh kar hameN lutf to aayaa hi; phir bhi, aap aek kaam keejiye --- is qit'e ke chauthe misr'e meN se lafz "to" ko nikaal deejiye --- kyuuN-k yeh lafz is achchhe-bhale misr'e ko Khaarij-az-baHr kar rahaa ha! :(
---------
Raj sahib, agar-chih aap Asad sahib se muKhatib haiN, maiN aik baat arz karuuN, balki bataur aik sawaal puuchhuN, to ummiid hai voh bura nahiiN maaneN ge.
agar ham 'talfuz' ke 'tal' ko 'pal' (moment) ke wazn se aur 'fuz' ko 'juz' ke wazn se paRhen, to kya misra 'to' ke saath bhii wazn meN nahiiN?
PS: Raj sahib, I mistakenly read 'tulfaz' as 'talfuz' but my point about the wazn remains the same!
----------
***janaab Vijay sahib, maiN aap ke savaal ka javaab dene ki soch hi rahaa thaa k Asad sahib ne, yeh keh kar, baat vaazeH kar di:
"Janab Raj Kumar Sahab, ye misra Inayat Ali Khan sahab ne aise hi kaha tha. Shayad aap 'tulfaz' ko ghalati se 'tulafaz' parh gaye".
yaqeenan, aisa hi hu'aa hai, sahib, k jahaaN aap ne 'tulfaz' ko 'talfuz' paRhaa (jis se k is lafz ke vazn meN ko'i farq naheeN paRtaa, it stays 22), vahaaN maiN ne ise 'tulaafaz' paRhaa (which made its vazn 122); nateejatan, mujhe is misr'e meN lafz 'to' zaa'id lagaa jab-k aap ko yeh lafz bar-Haq lagaa!
I might add that, since this qit'a is satirical, saying Ghalt for Ghalat and lafaz for lafz seemed quite natural to me but saying tulfaz for talaffuz seemed so unnatural and so far-fetched that it defied my consciousness.
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***
Naseer
Feb 26, 2016, 4:35:15 PM2/26/16
to
dostaan-i-giraamii aadaab 3arz hai.
maiN is laRii ko aaxirii shakl denaa chaahtaa huuN. mujhe ummiid hai kih aHbaab Ghair-jaanibdaarii kaa muzaaharah karte hu'e aur shavaahid ko madd-i-nazar rakhte hu'e apnaa faislaa (vote) deN ge.
agar aap kii nazar meN maiN ne saabit kar diyaa hai kih "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" qism kaa jumlah ahl-i-Urdu kii den hai to az raah-i-karam apnaa vote ***haaN*** ke zumre meN Daaliye gaa.
aur agar aisaa maiN nahiiN kar paayaa aur aap samajhte haiN kih yih tarkiib PunjabiyoN hii kii iijaad hai aur maadarii zabaan (Urdu) vaale aise jumle nahiiN bolte/likhte to apnaa vote ***nah" ke ruup meN diijiye gaa.
............................................................................
shuruu3 meN maiN ne Pakistan kii do jaanii-maanii shaxsiyyatoN kii zabaan se aise jumle, Youtube ke tavassut se, pesh kiye jin kii tafsiil niiche darj hai.
"us ne kahaa maiN ne nikaaH nahiiN is kaa paRhaanaa" (Iftikhar Arif- born Lucknow)
"jis ko kisii kaa Khayaal nahiiN aa rahaa apne 'ilaavah to us ne kyaa karnaa (hai)?" (Iftikhar Arif)
"ham ne to nahiiN marnaa hai" (Ubaidullah Baig- born Rampur)
is ke ba3d 2 taHriirii subuut pesh kiye. ek Urdu khel se, jo is jadiid daur se hai aur duusraa ek kitaab ke intisaab se jo 1917 meN likhii ga'ii thii. donoN musannif ahl-i-zabaan haiN.
"main ne nahiiN jaanaa" (Haseena Moin- born Kanpur- az tanhaaiyaaN)
go aaj se taqriib-an do saal peshtar jo ham ne is luGhaat kii qiimat kaa taxmiinah lagaayaa thaa vuh saaRhe tiin ruupayah fii jild thaa. aur ab jo kaaGhaz kii giraanii ne aaNkheN dikhaa diiN to hamaarii siTTii gum ho ga'ii. *magar ham ne is kii qiimat baRhaanii thii nah baRhaa'ii.*" (Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii SaaHib- az "LuGhatunnisaa- 1917'")
Asad SaaHib ne Abdul Haleem Sharar (born Lucknow) ke ek naavil se ek jumle kii nishaan-dihii kii hai lekin saath hii is baat kaa xadshah bhii zaahir kiyaa hai kih mumkin hai kih yahaaN kitaabat meN Ghalatii ho. is liye aap is misaal ko nazar andaaz kar sakte haiN. nah sirf is liye kih is par shak hai balkih is liye bhii kih yih shahaadat merii jaanib se nahiiN.
unhoN ne laakh banduuqeN sarkiiN aur chaaroN taraf gheraa Daal rahe magar hamaaraa kuchh nah kar sake. ***jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.*** (Abdul Haleem Sharar)
ab maiN aap ke saamhne Asad SaaHib ke chand mutaalabaat rakhnaa chaahtaa huuN.
"Ji haan. Lekin dil ki tasalli ke lie ek se zada misalen matloob hain."
"Qataee taur par to tab hi qaail hounga jab adab men iski misaal paa luun"
1) ek se ziyaadah misaaleN honaa chaahiyeN (Asad SaaHib, Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavii kii misaal ko qubuul karte haiN. so vuh ek misaal hu'ii)
2 misaal Urdu adab se ho; kisii shaa3ir yaa adiib ke qalam se.
3) misaal Dillii yaa Lucknow ke daanishvar kii honaa chaahiye.
maiN ne ek maziid misaal pesh kii jo kih Mullah Vajhi ke Sabras se hai. is kitaab kii tabaa3at aur ishaa3at meN Maulavi Abdul Haq kaa Hissah hai.
""jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa" (Mulla Vajhi az Sabra- 1635)
mere xayaal meN yih misaal ek bahut zor-daar shahaadat hai kih is nek kaam meN Punjab vaaloN kaa ko'ii kirdaar nahiiN. lekin ba-vujuuh ise bhii radd kar diyaa gayaa.
Mirza FarHat Ali Baig, Dillii kii ek jaanii maanii hastii the. unhoN ne bahut se xaake/mazaamiin likhe jin meN "Doctor Nazeer Ahmed kii kahaanii- kuchh merii aur kuchh un kii zabaanii" aur "Dillii kii aaxirii sham3" ne bahut shuhrat paa'ii. maiN jo iqtibaas pesh karne vaalaa huuN, vuh avvalu_zzikr se hai aur is ke "murattab" janaab-i-Rasheed Hassan Khan haiN jo Urdu adabii dunyaa meN ek xaas maqaam rakhte haiN. FarHat Ali Baig ke baare meN farmaate haiN..
Mirza FarHat Ali Baig Dillii vaale the; yuuN bhii kah sakte haiN kih vuh ahl-i-zabaan the....
FarHat Ali Baig kii nasr kii ek baRii xuubii yih hai kih vuh muHaavaroN se ziyaadah, balkih yuuN kahiye kih bunyaadii taur par roz-marrah ko nazar meN rakhte haiN. yahii vajh hai kih un kii 3ibaarat meN saadagii aur ravaanii, in donoN kii kamii maHsuus nahiiN hotii. muHaavaroN se bharii hu'ii zabaan likhnaa kuchh baRii baat nahiiN, magar ahl-i-zabaan jis tarH bolte haiN aur jise roz-marrah kahte haiN, us andaaz ko bar-qaraar rakhnaa vaqi3ii mushkil hai...
............................................................................
to liijiye ek aisaa subuut jo Asad SaaHib kii tiinoN sharaa'it par puuraa utartaa hai.
1) is misaal se ek se ziyaadah misaaleN ho jaa'eN gii (yih alag baat hai kih mere paas maziid misaaleN bhii haiN!!)
2) misaal Urdu adab ke ek adiib kii hai (FarHat Ali Baig)
3) mausuuf Dillii ke the..
"den-len sab kuchh karte the magar Hisaab-kitaab sirf duusroN kii kitaaboN yaa un ke dil meN thaa. kuchh thoRaa bahut logoN ke kahne sun_ne se, mutafarriq parchoN par likh bhii liyaa thaa lekin itne baRe byopaar ke liye jaisaa daftar chaahiye ***vuh unhoN ne nah rakhnaa thaa nah rakhaa***"
aap ke radd-i-3amal kaa muntaxir,
Naseer
maiN is laRii ko aaxirii shakl denaa chaahtaa huuN. mujhe ummiid hai kih aHbaab Ghair-jaanibdaarii kaa muzaaharah karte hu'e aur shavaahid ko madd-i-nazar rakhte hu'e apnaa faislaa (vote) deN ge.
agar aap kii nazar meN maiN ne saabit kar diyaa hai kih "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" qism kaa jumlah ahl-i-Urdu kii den hai to az raah-i-karam apnaa vote ***haaN*** ke zumre meN Daaliye gaa.
aur agar aisaa maiN nahiiN kar paayaa aur aap samajhte haiN kih yih tarkiib PunjabiyoN hii kii iijaad hai aur maadarii zabaan (Urdu) vaale aise jumle nahiiN bolte/likhte to apnaa vote ***nah" ke ruup meN diijiye gaa.
............................................................................
shuruu3 meN maiN ne Pakistan kii do jaanii-maanii shaxsiyyatoN kii zabaan se aise jumle, Youtube ke tavassut se, pesh kiye jin kii tafsiil niiche darj hai.
"us ne kahaa maiN ne nikaaH nahiiN is kaa paRhaanaa" (Iftikhar Arif- born Lucknow)
"jis ko kisii kaa Khayaal nahiiN aa rahaa apne 'ilaavah to us ne kyaa karnaa (hai)?" (Iftikhar Arif)
"ham ne to nahiiN marnaa hai" (Ubaidullah Baig- born Rampur)
is ke ba3d 2 taHriirii subuut pesh kiye. ek Urdu khel se, jo is jadiid daur se hai aur duusraa ek kitaab ke intisaab se jo 1917 meN likhii ga'ii thii. donoN musannif ahl-i-zabaan haiN.
"main ne nahiiN jaanaa" (Haseena Moin- born Kanpur- az tanhaaiyaaN)
go aaj se taqriib-an do saal peshtar jo ham ne is luGhaat kii qiimat kaa taxmiinah lagaayaa thaa vuh saaRhe tiin ruupayah fii jild thaa. aur ab jo kaaGhaz kii giraanii ne aaNkheN dikhaa diiN to hamaarii siTTii gum ho ga'ii. *magar ham ne is kii qiimat baRhaanii thii nah baRhaa'ii.*" (Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii SaaHib- az "LuGhatunnisaa- 1917'")
Asad SaaHib ne Abdul Haleem Sharar (born Lucknow) ke ek naavil se ek jumle kii nishaan-dihii kii hai lekin saath hii is baat kaa xadshah bhii zaahir kiyaa hai kih mumkin hai kih yahaaN kitaabat meN Ghalatii ho. is liye aap is misaal ko nazar andaaz kar sakte haiN. nah sirf is liye kih is par shak hai balkih is liye bhii kih yih shahaadat merii jaanib se nahiiN.
unhoN ne laakh banduuqeN sarkiiN aur chaaroN taraf gheraa Daal rahe magar hamaaraa kuchh nah kar sake. ***jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.*** (Abdul Haleem Sharar)
ab maiN aap ke saamhne Asad SaaHib ke chand mutaalabaat rakhnaa chaahtaa huuN.
"Ji haan. Lekin dil ki tasalli ke lie ek se zada misalen matloob hain."
"Qataee taur par to tab hi qaail hounga jab adab men iski misaal paa luun"
"urdu ke lie Delhi ki taraf dekhna kya theek na hoga? Meer Amman bhi apni zaban ki sehat ki sanad dilli se ta'alluq honay ki deti hain. Rajab Ali Beg bhi. Urdu e Mu'alla bhi Delhi men tha aur urdu e mualla ki zabaan bhi Delhi hi ki zabaan hai. Agar Delhi walay ghalat samajhte hain to ye bari daleel hai"
"baat vahiin aan pohnchi, main 'ne' ke is istemaal ki mazeed shahadaten chaahun ga. kisii shaair ke kalam ya kisii musannif ki kitab main."
in taqaazoN kaa lubb-i-lubaab yih hai.
1) ek se ziyaadah misaaleN honaa chaahiyeN (Asad SaaHib, Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavii kii misaal ko qubuul karte haiN. so vuh ek misaal hu'ii)
2 misaal Urdu adab se ho; kisii shaa3ir yaa adiib ke qalam se.
3) misaal Dillii yaa Lucknow ke daanishvar kii honaa chaahiye.
maiN ne ek maziid misaal pesh kii jo kih Mullah Vajhi ke Sabras se hai. is kitaab kii tabaa3at aur ishaa3at meN Maulavi Abdul Haq kaa Hissah hai.
""jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa" (Mulla Vajhi az Sabra- 1635)
mere xayaal meN yih misaal ek bahut zor-daar shahaadat hai kih is nek kaam meN Punjab vaaloN kaa ko'ii kirdaar nahiiN. lekin ba-vujuuh ise bhii radd kar diyaa gayaa.
Mirza FarHat Ali Baig, Dillii kii ek jaanii maanii hastii the. unhoN ne bahut se xaake/mazaamiin likhe jin meN "Doctor Nazeer Ahmed kii kahaanii- kuchh merii aur kuchh un kii zabaanii" aur "Dillii kii aaxirii sham3" ne bahut shuhrat paa'ii. maiN jo iqtibaas pesh karne vaalaa huuN, vuh avvalu_zzikr se hai aur is ke "murattab" janaab-i-Rasheed Hassan Khan haiN jo Urdu adabii dunyaa meN ek xaas maqaam rakhte haiN. FarHat Ali Baig ke baare meN farmaate haiN..
Mirza FarHat Ali Baig Dillii vaale the; yuuN bhii kah sakte haiN kih vuh ahl-i-zabaan the....
FarHat Ali Baig kii nasr kii ek baRii xuubii yih hai kih vuh muHaavaroN se ziyaadah, balkih yuuN kahiye kih bunyaadii taur par roz-marrah ko nazar meN rakhte haiN. yahii vajh hai kih un kii 3ibaarat meN saadagii aur ravaanii, in donoN kii kamii maHsuus nahiiN hotii. muHaavaroN se bharii hu'ii zabaan likhnaa kuchh baRii baat nahiiN, magar ahl-i-zabaan jis tarH bolte haiN aur jise roz-marrah kahte haiN, us andaaz ko bar-qaraar rakhnaa vaqi3ii mushkil hai...
............................................................................
to liijiye ek aisaa subuut jo Asad SaaHib kii tiinoN sharaa'it par puuraa utartaa hai.
1) is misaal se ek se ziyaadah misaaleN ho jaa'eN gii (yih alag baat hai kih mere paas maziid misaaleN bhii haiN!!)
2) misaal Urdu adab ke ek adiib kii hai (FarHat Ali Baig)
3) mausuuf Dillii ke the..
"den-len sab kuchh karte the magar Hisaab-kitaab sirf duusroN kii kitaaboN yaa un ke dil meN thaa. kuchh thoRaa bahut logoN ke kahne sun_ne se, mutafarriq parchoN par likh bhii liyaa thaa lekin itne baRe byopaar ke liye jaisaa daftar chaahiye ***vuh unhoN ne nah rakhnaa thaa nah rakhaa***"
aap ke radd-i-3amal kaa muntaxir,
Naseer
Naseer
Apr 30, 2016, 10:29:27 AM4/30/16
to
insaaf ke mauzuu3 par ek do shi3r pesh-i-xidmat haiN. pahlaa janaab-i-UVR SaaHib kii ek post se liyaa gayaa hai aur rubaa3ii janaab-i-Afzal SaaHib kii ek laRii se hai.
har zaxm-i-jigar daavar-i-maHshar se hamaaraa
insaaf-talab hai tirii be-daad-garii kaa
Miir Taqii Miir
jis dil meN Ghubaar ho, vuh dil saaf kahaaN
phir xulq kahaaN, vafaa-o-altaaf kahaaN
jis qaum meN aa gayaa ta3assub kaa qadam
us qaum meN, ai Shaad, phir insaaf kahaaN
Shad Aziimabadi
har zaxm-i-jigar daavar-i-maHshar se hamaaraa
insaaf-talab hai tirii be-daad-garii kaa
Miir Taqii Miir
jis dil meN Ghubaar ho, vuh dil saaf kahaaN
phir xulq kahaaN, vafaa-o-altaaf kahaaN
jis qaum meN aa gayaa ta3assub kaa qadam
us qaum meN, ai Shaad, phir insaaf kahaaN
Shad Aziimabadi
Raj Kumar
Apr 30, 2016, 9:09:17 PM4/30/16
to
On Saturday, April 30, 2016 at 7:29:27 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> insaaf ke mauzuu3 par ek do shi3r pesh-i-xidmat haiN. pahlaa janaab-i-UVR SaaHib kii ek post se liyaa gayaa hai aur rubaa3ii janaab-i-Afzal SaaHib kii ek laRii se hai.
>
>
> har zaxm-i-jigar daavar-i-maHshar se hamaaraa
> insaaf-talab hai tirii be-daad-garii kaa
>
>
> insaaf ke mauzuu3 par ek do shi3r pesh-i-xidmat haiN. pahlaa janaab-i-UVR SaaHib kii ek post se liyaa gayaa hai aur rubaa3ii janaab-i-Afzal SaaHib kii ek laRii se hai.
>
>
> har zaxm-i-jigar daavar-i-maHshar se hamaaraa
> insaaf-talab hai tirii be-daad-garii kaa
>
>
> jis dil meN Ghubaar ho, vuh dil saaf kahaaN
> phir xulq kahaaN, vafaa-o-altaaf kahaaN
> jis qaum meN aa gayaa ta3assub kaa qadam
> us qaum meN, ai Shaad, phir insaaf kahaaN
janaab-e-Naseer saaHib:
> phir xulq kahaaN, vafaa-o-altaaf kahaaN
> jis qaum meN aa gayaa ta3assub kaa qadam
> us qaum meN, ai Shaad, phir insaaf kahaaN
meri samajh meN yeh nahiiN aa rahaa k aap ne "insaaf" ki yeh faryaad is laRii meN (jo k apne iKhtetaam par thi) kyooN kii hai? zaraa vazaaHat kar di hoti to ko'ii samajhtaa bhii! :)
R.K.
Asad
Jun 10, 2016, 6:45:28 AM6/10/16
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Assalamu alaikum.
Naseer sahib ki ta'eed men ek aur cheez mili hai. Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi ki ek naat ka sher hai:
یَا شَمسُ نَظَرتِ اِلٰی لَیلِی چو بطیبہ رسی عرضے بکنی
توری جوت کی جھل جھل جگ میں رچی مری شب نے نہ دن ہونا جانا
'meri shab ne nah din hona jaana' ghaur-talab hai.
Naseer sahib ki ta'eed men ek aur cheez mili hai. Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi ki ek naat ka sher hai:
یَا شَمسُ نَظَرتِ اِلٰی لَیلِی چو بطیبہ رسی عرضے بکنی
توری جوت کی جھل جھل جگ میں رچی مری شب نے نہ دن ہونا جانا
'meri shab ne nah din hona jaana' ghaur-talab hai.
Naseer
Jul 5, 2016, 6:04:47 AM7/5/16
to
Apologies for the delay in replying. I meant to come back to your post but then loss of memory took over!:-)
I am not sure the example you have provided is of the same type of construction that we have been discussing in this thread.
mirii shab ne din honaa nah jaanaa
Can we replace "ne" with ko? I don't think so.
A well known shi3r by Jigar ..
kyaa Husn ne samjhaa hai, kyaa 3ishq ne jaanaa hai
ham xaak-nisheenoN kii Thokar meN zamaanah hai
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Jul 5, 2016, 5:59:50 PM7/5/16
to
On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 3:04:47 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Friday, 10 June 2016 11:45:28 UTC+1, Asad wrote:
> > Assalamu alaikum.
> >
> > Naseer sahib ki ta'eed men ek aur cheez mili hai. Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi ki ek naat ka sher hai:
> >
> > یَا شَمسُ نَظَرتِ اِلٰی لَیلِی چو بطیبہ رسی عرضے بکنی
> > توری جوت کی جھل جھل جگ میں رچی مری شب نے نہ دن ہونا جانا
> >
> > 'meri shab ne nah din hona jaana' ghaur-talab hai.
----------
> On Friday, 10 June 2016 11:45:28 UTC+1, Asad wrote:
> > Assalamu alaikum.
> >
> > Naseer sahib ki ta'eed men ek aur cheez mili hai. Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi ki ek naat ka sher hai:
> >
> > یَا شَمسُ نَظَرتِ اِلٰی لَیلِی چو بطیبہ رسی عرضے بکنی
> > توری جوت کی جھل جھل جگ میں رچی مری شب نے نہ دن ہونا جانا
> >
> > 'meri shab ne nah din hona jaana' ghaur-talab hai.
> va 3alaikumu_ssalaam Asad SaaHib.
>
> Apologies for the delay in replying. I meant to come back to your post but then "loss of memory" took over!:-)
yeh ghisaa-piTaa bahaana kayee baar sun chukaa huuN
"maiN zabaaN ki mo'atabar thii, mujhe Haafize ne maaraa"! ;)
> I am not sure the example you have provided is of the same type of construction that we have been discussing in this thread.
>
> mirii shab ne din honaa nah jaanaa
>
> Can we replace "ne" with ko? I don't think so.
>
> A well known shi3r by Jigar ..
>
> kyaa Husn ne samjhaa hai, kyaa 3ishq ne jaanaa hai
> ham xaak-nisheenoN kii Thokar meN zamaanah hai
>
> Naseer
is liye k zer-e-baHs mauzuu'a ka ta'alluq "mustaqbil" se hai, jab-k is misaal ka ta'alluq "maazi "se yaa "Haal" se hai.
nateejatan, hameN Asad sahib ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad to deni chaahiye, albatta un ki is misaal se dar-guzar hi vaajib hai!
du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***
asad...@gmail.com
Jul 7, 2016, 4:14:31 PM7/7/16
to
Janab Naseer Sahib aur Janab Raj Kumar Sahib
theek farmaya aap donon ne. yahan 'jaanaa' 'jaanne' se hai aur main isko 'jaanaan' samajh raha tha.
chaliaye is se mera hi faaida hua :-)
Asad
theek farmaya aap donon ne. yahan 'jaanaa' 'jaanne' se hai aur main isko 'jaanaan' samajh raha tha.
chaliaye is se mera hi faaida hua :-)
Asad
Naseer
May 28, 2019, 12:22:00 AM5/28/19
to
janaab-i-Asad Saahib, aadaab 3arz hai.
is mauzuu3 ko chheRe tiin saal se zaa'id 3arsah biit chukaa hai. maiN ne tamaam posts az sar-i-nau to nahiiN paRhiiN lekin jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aap is baat se ittifaaq karne se qaasir rahe haiN kih "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" qism kii tarkiib PunjabiyoN kii taxliiq nahiiN hai balkih is kii ibtidaa Urdu-go daa'roN hii se hu'ii thii. is ke liye maiN pahle bhii chand dalaa'il pesh kar chukaa huuN.
zabaanoN se vaa-bastah ek aur forum se ek dost ne hamaarii yih mushkil duur kar dii hai. janaab-i-Gopi Chand Narang ne 1961 meN ek kitaab jis kaa naam "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" hai, us ke safhah 51 par vuh farmaate haiN...
The first person singular agent maiN ne میں نے is also used as singular dative: e.g. maiN ne khaanaa pakaanaa hai
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/karkhandari-dialect-of-delhi-urdu-gopi-chand-narang-ebooks?lang=hi&pageId=&targetId=&bookmarkType=&referer=&myaction=
saabit hu'aa hai kih is tarkiib kaa Punjab se ko'ii ta3alluq nahiiN.
nek-andesh,
Naseer
is mauzuu3 ko chheRe tiin saal se zaa'id 3arsah biit chukaa hai. maiN ne tamaam posts az sar-i-nau to nahiiN paRhiiN lekin jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aap is baat se ittifaaq karne se qaasir rahe haiN kih "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" qism kii tarkiib PunjabiyoN kii taxliiq nahiiN hai balkih is kii ibtidaa Urdu-go daa'roN hii se hu'ii thii. is ke liye maiN pahle bhii chand dalaa'il pesh kar chukaa huuN.
zabaanoN se vaa-bastah ek aur forum se ek dost ne hamaarii yih mushkil duur kar dii hai. janaab-i-Gopi Chand Narang ne 1961 meN ek kitaab jis kaa naam "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" hai, us ke safhah 51 par vuh farmaate haiN...
The first person singular agent maiN ne میں نے is also used as singular dative: e.g. maiN ne khaanaa pakaanaa hai
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/karkhandari-dialect-of-delhi-urdu-gopi-chand-narang-ebooks?lang=hi&pageId=&targetId=&bookmarkType=&referer=&myaction=
saabit hu'aa hai kih is tarkiib kaa Punjab se ko'ii ta3alluq nahiiN.
nek-andesh,
Naseer
Asad
Jun 5, 2019, 2:44:22 PM6/5/19
to
Janaab-e-Naseer sahib tasleemaat!
Aaj najanay kyun 3 Saal baad baithe baithe aap hazraat ki Yaad aaii aur main be-ikhteyaar yahan Chala Aya! Maloom hua k koi Yaad Kar raha tha. Waqaii Dil se Dil ko raah hai. Aapka mauzoo par guftugoo Ka jazbaa bhi deedni hai. Khuda aapko maziid himmat ata farma_E. Ye kitab to main filhal Nahin Dekh Saka kyun k rekhta mujhe daakhil daftar karne par musir hai aur baghair iske 5 se zaaid auraaq palatne ki ijazat Nahin de Raha. Yaqeenan rekhta aisi website hai ke unki ye khaahish poori kiay baghair bhi chara Nahin hai...main zaroor ye poori bhi karunga. Aur Aapka bataya hua safha bhi dekhunga. Sar-e-dast itna hi kehta Hun keh lakhon safhaat par mushtamil adabi safhaat men se Chand ek misaal pesh Kar dena Aapke davE k haq main hargiz daleel k taur par Nahin mana ja Sakta. Jab tk koi tarkib lagataar istemaal na Hoti ho ye mana Nahin ja Sakta. Jin sahib ki kitaab aap ne pesh ki hai unke baare men bhi dekhna Hoga. Baharhaal main zaroor is par baat karunga. Yaad rakhne Ka shukriya, aur dili Eid Mubarak.
Aaj najanay kyun 3 Saal baad baithe baithe aap hazraat ki Yaad aaii aur main be-ikhteyaar yahan Chala Aya! Maloom hua k koi Yaad Kar raha tha. Waqaii Dil se Dil ko raah hai. Aapka mauzoo par guftugoo Ka jazbaa bhi deedni hai. Khuda aapko maziid himmat ata farma_E. Ye kitab to main filhal Nahin Dekh Saka kyun k rekhta mujhe daakhil daftar karne par musir hai aur baghair iske 5 se zaaid auraaq palatne ki ijazat Nahin de Raha. Yaqeenan rekhta aisi website hai ke unki ye khaahish poori kiay baghair bhi chara Nahin hai...main zaroor ye poori bhi karunga. Aur Aapka bataya hua safha bhi dekhunga. Sar-e-dast itna hi kehta Hun keh lakhon safhaat par mushtamil adabi safhaat men se Chand ek misaal pesh Kar dena Aapke davE k haq main hargiz daleel k taur par Nahin mana ja Sakta. Jab tk koi tarkib lagataar istemaal na Hoti ho ye mana Nahin ja Sakta. Jin sahib ki kitaab aap ne pesh ki hai unke baare men bhi dekhna Hoga. Baharhaal main zaroor is par baat karunga. Yaad rakhne Ka shukriya, aur dili Eid Mubarak.
Naseer
Jun 5, 2019, 6:59:59 PM6/5/19
to
ISHTIHAAR - EK MUNSIF KII TALAASH HAI JO NIICHE DII GA'II TAHRIIR KO PARH KAR FAISALA KAREN KIH "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" QISM KII TARKIIB URDU VAALON KII TAXLIIQ HAI YAA KIH PANJABIYON KII.
1. 1635 meN Mullaa Asadullah Wajhii ne "Sabras" kii tasniif kii. Baabaa-i-Urdu, janaab-i-Abdul Haq ne ise 1932 meN apnii nigraanii meN Aurangabad se shaa'i3 kiyaa. aap safhah no. 182 kaa mulaahazah kiijiye.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201829284/Sabras-Mulla-Wajhi-Dakkani-Urdu
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa"
2. 1899 meN Abdul Halim Sharar ne ek naavil ba-naam “Hasan-Angelina” likhaa jis ke safhah no.9 par yih jumlah likhaa hu’aa hai.
jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.
https://archive.org/details/HasanAnglinaByAbdulHaleemSharar/page/n9
3. Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavi, in his book entitled “LuGhaatunnisaa’” published in 1917, over a hundred years ago, writes on page 2, "go aaj se taqriib-an do saal
4. Maulavii Nazeer Ahmed kii kahaanii- kuchh merii aur kuchh un kii zabaanii- Farhat Ali Beg – July 1927 (page 40)
"den-len sab kuchh karte the magar Hisaab-kitaab sirf duusroN kii kitaaboN yaa un ke dil meN thaa. kuchh thoRaa bahut logoN ke kahne sun_ne se, mutafarriq parchoN par likh bhii liyaa thaa lekin itne baRe byopaar ke liye jaisaa daftar chaahiye ***vuh unhoN ne nah rakhnaa thaa nah rakhaa***"
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/dr-nazeer-ahmad-ki-kahani-kuchh-meri-aur-kuchh-unki-zabani-mirza-farhatullah-beg-ebooks
5.janaab-i-Gopi Chand Narang ne 1961 meN ek kitaab jis kaa naam "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" hai, us ke safhah 51 par vuh farmaate haiN...
The first person singular agent maiN ne میں نے is also used as singular dative: e.g. maiN ne khaanaa pakaanaa hai
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/karkhandari-dialect-of-delhi-urdu-gopi-chand-narang-ebooks?lang=hi&pageId=&targetId=&bookmarkType=&referer=&myaction=
...................................................
insaaf kaa taalib
Naseer
1. 1635 meN Mullaa Asadullah Wajhii ne "Sabras" kii tasniif kii. Baabaa-i-Urdu, janaab-i-Abdul Haq ne ise 1932 meN apnii nigraanii meN Aurangabad se shaa'i3 kiyaa. aap safhah no. 182 kaa mulaahazah kiijiye.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201829284/Sabras-Mulla-Wajhi-Dakkani-Urdu
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa"
jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.
3. Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavi, in his book entitled “LuGhaatunnisaa’” published in 1917, over a hundred years ago, writes on page 2, "go aaj se taqriib-an do saal
peshtar jo ham ne is luGhaat kii qiimat kaa taxmiinah lagaayaa thaa vuh saaRhe tiin ruupayah fii jild thaa. aur ab jo kaaGhaz kii giraanii ne aaNkheN dikhaa diiN to hamaarii siTTii gum ho ga'ii. *magar ham ne is kii qiimat baRhaanii thii nah baRhaa'ii."
https://archive.org/stream/lughtunnis00amaduoft#page/299/mode/2up
4. Maulavii Nazeer Ahmed kii kahaanii- kuchh merii aur kuchh un kii zabaanii- Farhat Ali Beg – July 1927 (page 40)
"den-len sab kuchh karte the magar Hisaab-kitaab sirf duusroN kii kitaaboN yaa un ke dil meN thaa. kuchh thoRaa bahut logoN ke kahne sun_ne se, mutafarriq parchoN par likh bhii liyaa thaa lekin itne baRe byopaar ke liye jaisaa daftar chaahiye ***vuh unhoN ne nah rakhnaa thaa nah rakhaa***"
5.janaab-i-Gopi Chand Narang ne 1961 meN ek kitaab jis kaa naam "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" hai, us ke safhah 51 par vuh farmaate haiN...
The first person singular agent maiN ne میں نے is also used as singular dative: e.g. maiN ne khaanaa pakaanaa hai
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/karkhandari-dialect-of-delhi-urdu-gopi-chand-narang-ebooks?lang=hi&pageId=&targetId=&bookmarkType=&referer=&myaction=
insaaf kaa taalib
Naseer
Asad
Mar 17, 2023, 8:12:55 AM3/17/23
to
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/hasan-angelina-abdul-halim-sharar-ebooks-1?lang=ur&_ga=2.42127974.2119955258.1679041612-290492186.1679041612
apne ishtihar se sharar sahib ka hawal hazf kar lijiye. baqion ko bhi dekhte hain.
Asad
Naseer
Mar 19, 2023, 8:08:49 AM3/19/23
to
jii haaN, Abdul Haleem Sharar kii kitaab "Hasan Angelina" kaa Havaalah aap hii ne diyaa thaa. 1953 kii isha3at ke Havaale kaa shukriyah. yaqiin-an duusrii kitaab meN kaatib se Ghalatii sar-zad hu'ii ho gii. lihaazaa "ishtihaar" ke 5 subuutoN meN se is "subuut" ko Hazf samajhiye.
baqiyah chaar subuut zail meN darj haiN.
1. Mulla-Wajhi (Punjabi nahiiN the)
2. Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavi (Punjabi nahiiN the)
3. Farhat Ali Beg (Punjabi nahiiN the)
4. Professor Gopi Chand Narang ke mutaabiq(aur maiN ne un kii kitaab kaa Havaalah diyaa hai) is qism kaa tarz-i-guftaar "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" meN paayaa jaata hai
aap ne farmaayaa thaa, ""us ne vaapas aana hai" ka ta'lluq ahl-e-punjaab se aisaa hii hai jaisaa aap ka ALUP se hai :)". kyaa aap bhii ek talx Haqiiqat kaa i3tiraaf karte hu'e apne irshaad-i-giraamii kii nafii kar sakte haiN?
Naseer
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