Urdu Word Ending Lughat for Ghazal
John Fambrini
I had seen a Lughat which only had matching word endings that is
invaluable in writing ghazals. For instance mafroor maghroor, mashoor
and so on. All matching word endings. This books is available in New
York Public Library in Elmhurst, Queens. I'm wondering if someone
knows its name and availability.
Shukria,
John
Naseer
Dear John,
I am not aware of such a dictionary that is arranged in order of
"qaafiyah/radiif". I presume you must already have searched it on the
net. Can you give us any more clues, such as part of the title
perhaps? I shall certainly do my best to assist you in finding this
book.
On a side note. If you were to purchase" Kulliyaat-i-Sauda", published
by Majlis-i-Taraqqii-i-Adab, Lahore, the compiler being Dr. Muhammad
Shamsu_ddiin Siddiiqii, you will find that the poet Sauda's huge store
of qaafiyas/radiifs perhaps might even surprise the dictionary
compilers! Just a thought.
Naseer
John Fambrini
Thanks for getting back to me. I have tried searching on the Net by
typing "matching last words Urdu" but that has not brought forth any
results. Perhaps there is a fault in my search parameters and I'm open
to suggestions. This said book of "ham qafiya" list does indeed exist
and I borrowed it quite a few times from New York Library in Elmhurst
Queens. They have a large collection of Urdu books. Thanks for the tip
on Kuliyat Sauda. I will try to find it here. A friend of mine is
visiting Pakistan and has agreed to bring a book on this topic if I
can name the title hence the posting.
I'm also trying to fathom the bihr concept. Failatoon faoolun failoun
mufalatun, etc. I cannot find what they actually mean. Are these
actual grammar types? I know f-a-l is the triliteral verb root but
cannot find the above verb types or participles anywhere. All the
tutorials on Urdu, Arabic or Persian meter (bihr) assume a fore-
knowledge of these concepts. Is there a guide which will allow one to
learn this intuitively. It seems that one cannot get started with
writing the right ghazals without first understanding the bihr. Is
there a book in Urdu or a website here which will describe it for an
absolute novice.
Thanks,
Regards,
John
Naseer
I shall post you a reply via e-mail.
Naseer
v
naseer saahab
us email me.n hame.n bhee shareeq karne kee kripaa kare.n
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab.
e-mail bhejne kii vajh yih hai kih maiN aap sab ke saamne is mauzuu'
par apnii kam 'ilmii dikhaa kar sharmindah nahiiN honaa chaahtaa huuN!
Naseer
v
pilaa de ok se saaqi jo ham se nafrat hai
pyaalaa nahee.n na de sharaab to de
:)
Afzal A. Khan
Piyaala gar naheeN deta na de sharaab to de.
Afzal
Jamil
> I'm also trying to fathom the bihr concept. Failatoon faoolun failoun
> mufalatun, etc. I cannot find what they actually mean. Are these
> actual grammar types? I know f-a-l is the triliteral verb root but
> cannot find the above verb types or participles anywhere. All the
> tutorials on Urdu, Arabic or Persian meter (bihr) assume a fore-
> knowledge of these concepts. Is there a guide which will allow one to
> learn this intuitively. It seems that one cannot get started with
> writing the right ghazals without first understanding the bihr. Is
> there a book in Urdu or a website here which will describe it for an
> absolute novice.
>
> Thanks,
> Regards,
> John
John Fambrini Sahib
Some years ago, Irfan Abid Sahib had posted here an article on meter
in Urdu poetry. The article is no longer available on ALUP archives,
but was fortunately saved by Nita Sahiba in her archives and is
available at:
http://www.urdupoetry.com/articles/art5.html
The article explains behr in simple terms. As to 'fa-uu-lun', 'faa-i-
lun', 'ma-faa-ii-lun', etc, these are, to quote from the article just
"... meaningless dummy words, the basic purpose of which is to specify
the places of long and short syllables in an actual word." - in other
words analogs of "do re me", or "sa re ga ma".
I hope you would find the article useful, as indeed I did.
Jamil
v
thanks for the article
the article says gulon me rang bhare of faiz is the 1222 2122 1222 212
meter.
if i try to analyse the sher
gu lo.n me.n rang bha re baa de nau ba haa r cha le
1 2 2 2 1 2 2 1 2 1 2 1 1 2
what am i doing wrong?
John Fambrini
Thanks for the link on article. Irfan's article is very informative.
You have highlighted the crux of the issue I was having trouble with.
I was trying to find the meaning of these words in Arabic grammar as
mafool means an object of a verb, someone on whom action is performed.
They may have a meaning but after they were acquired from Arabic to
Persian to Urdu their original significance is gone and they are now
placeholders.
Thanks,
John
UVR
Your mail indicates that you're possibly scanning "rang" wrong.
The correct syllabic division of this line is:
gu lo.n me.n ran g bha re baa d(e) nau ba haa r cha le
gu = 1, lo.n = 2, me.n = 1, ran = 2, g = 1, bha = 1, re = 2
baa = 2, d(e) = 1, nau = 2, ba = 1, haa = 2, r = 1, cha = 1, le = 2
Hope this helps. If you have questions, please ask.
-UVR.
UVR
janaab-e-John Fambrini saahib,
I have not had the good fortune of coming across the dictionary of
which you speak, or of another publication like it, and do not have a
useful answer to your question, per se.
However, I would like to point you to a couple of resources that you
might find useful in your seach for qawaafee:
1. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/
2. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/steingass/
You may have come across these in the past; it is possible to use
these dictionaries to extract words that have identical letter
endings. One has but to select the "Words ending with" radio button
and put in the ending one is seeking (e.g., "ūr") to see it come back
with mastūr, maGhrūr, maKhmūr, mashhūr, ranjūr, dastūr, etc.
Depending on how specific the input is, the dictionaries will return
"exact" matches (e.g., Khaas, iKhlaas, only) OR "identical sounding
consonant" matches (e.g., Khaas, iKhlaas as well as baas, paas etc).
Regards,
-UVR.
Naseer
On Apr 14, 11:19 am, UVR <u.v.ravin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your mail indicates that you're possibly scanning "rang" wrong.
>
> The correct syllabic division of this line is:
>
> gu lo.n me.n ran g bha re baa d(e) nau ba haa r cha le
>
> gu = 1, lo.n = 2, me.n = 1, ran = 2, g = 1, bha = 1, re = 2
> baa = 2, d(e) = 1, nau = 2, ba = 1, haa = 2, r = 1, cha = 1, le = 2
>
> Hope this helps. If you have questions, please ask.
>
As you have kindly offered to answer any questions, may I be your
first pupil please (in this thread)?
If re/le are 2, then why is meN 1?
Also, is an izaafat equal to a short vowel (zer/i) and that is why
d(e) is 1?
Naseer
UVR
meN: It can be 2 or 1; the way Urdu poetry works, a poet can choose to
employ me.n with a syllabic weight of 2 or of 1, depending on his/her
need. Here, Faiz has chosen to use it with a short vowel sound, to
fit the metric requirements.
izaafat: It too can be 2 or 1. Here, Faiz has used it as a short "e",
to fit the metre. Elsewhere in the same Ghazal, Faiz has used izaafat
with a long "e":
jo ham pe guzri so guzri, magar shab-E-hijraaN
hamaare ashk tiree 'aaqibat saNwaar chale
jo = 1, ham = 2, pe = 1, guz = 2, ri = 1, so = 1, guz = 2, ri = 2
ma = 1, gar = 2, sha = 1, b(E) = 2, hij = 2, raaN = 2
Note the use of "guz-ri" in the same line as both "2-1" and "2-2".
This sort of thing is, IMO, the single biggest reason most people have
the problems they do Urdu poetry metrics and scansion: the fact that
syllabic weights of words are based ENTIRELY on their pronunciation.
Words, in general, do not have fixed metric lengths when they are used
in poetry. Many words have acceptable pronunciational variants and
all acceptable variants are valid to use in poetry without exception,
so long as they are "faseeh". What is faseeh and what variants are
acceptable are, of course, known only to those who are somewhat
familiar with the idiom of the language.
-UVR.
v
thanks very much. this makes sense
ma=1 qaa=2 m =1 fai=2 z=1 ko=1 ee=2 raa=2 h=1 me.n=2 ja.n=1 chaa=2
hi=1 na=1 hee.n=2
i recently heard dr manmohan singh utter a couplet of iqbal
maanaa ke teree deed ke qaabil nahee.n hoo.n mai.n
tuu meraa shauq dekh meraa intezaar dekh
maa=2 naa=2 ki=1 te=1 ree=2 dee=2 d=1 ke=2 qaa=2 bil=2 na=1 hee.n=2
hoo.n=2 mai.n=2
tuu=2 me=2 ra=1 shau=2 q =1 dekh=2 me=1 raa=2 inti=2 zaa=2 r=1 dekh=2
i have tried to give the weights according to the way i recite it...in
the misraa e saani the first meraa has a longer e sound and the second
one is shorter. but the couplet seems to become khaarij az behr.
please help.
interesting that this core topic is not discussed more at length on
this forum.
till that time i learn this properly i guess this iqbal sher shall
apply to my desire to learn meter :)
Naseer
janaab-i-UVR Sahib, bahut bahut shukriyah. I shall do my best to
digest this before I ask any more meter related questions.
Another issue!
I have been attempting to post a new message on ALUP since yesterday.
I know Ghalib fans would be interested in its contents. But when I
click on the "Post message" tag, I get the message, "We were unable to
post your message". It seems I am able to respond to others' posts
without any difficulty. Can you help? Can anyone help?
Naseer
John Fambrini
Thanks for the link. I did find list of Hum Qafia words on the Net.
They are posted on Urduanjuman. (http://www.bazm.urduanjuman.com/
index.php?topic=1266.0). They are scanned pages of a book. I'm hopeful
that someone will type them in Unicode Urdu for everyone's ease.
Thanks,
Regards,
John
On Apr 15, 1:35 am, UVR <u.v.ravin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 11, 12:26 am, John Fambrini <johnfambr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I had seen a Lughat which only had matching word endings that is
> > invaluable in writing ghazals. For instance mafroor maghroor, mashoor
> > and so on. All matching word endings. This books is available in New
> > York Public Library in Elmhurst, Queens. I'm wondering if someone
> > knows its name and availability.
> > Shukria,
> > John
>
> janaab-e-John Fambrini saahib,
>
> I have not had the good fortune of coming across the dictionary of
> which you speak, or of another publication like it, and do not have a
> useful answer to your question, per se.
>
> However, I would like to point you to a couple of resources that you
> might find useful in your seach for qawaafee:
>
> 1.http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/
> 2.http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/steingass/
UVR
aadaab 'arz hai, Naseer saahib. It would appear that your undaunted
efforts to post said message have succeeded. I do see a post from you
that would be of interest to Ghalib fans (as it indeed is of interest
to me).
-UVR.
Naseer
No, the problem persists. That particular item was posted through the
good offices of Jamil Sahib. Can you suggest a way out? Also please
see Abubakr Sahib's first post in that thread. Could you please help
him too.
Naseer
UVR
aadaab, Naseer saahib.
Sorry for misunderstanding the true nature of the problem you're
experiencing. Please accept my apologies.
Given that there are many things that could be going wrong here
("wheels within wheels" being the phrase PGWodehouse is wont to
employ), I am not sure I can suggest any useful remedies to your
issue at this moment save the first bullet item mentioned here:
http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=70499
If that doesn't solve the problem, we will have to seek additional
information to try to narrow down the cause of the problem. For
example, have you "graduated" to using the new Google groups
interface? What browser and version are you using and on which
operating system: your posts state that you're using Opera 9.51 on
some version of Windows (XP?); are they being honest? If so, why
Opera 9.51 and not something more recent (the latest is 11.x which is
what I'm using to post this message). If you are using the new Google
groups interface, have you tried falling back to the older version
(which is what I'm using; I dislike the new interface). Wheels, as I
said, within wheels, so I really hope bullet no. 1 on the URL I
pointed you to fixes it.
-UVR.
UVR
ra"V"i saahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
I thought I had replied to this message yesterday (at the same time I
replied to Naseer sahib's post), but my reply has not appeared so far,
so I'm trying again.
The problem with the taqtee' (syllabic scansion) you have done above
is the following errors:
Line 1:
"teree" is scanned as 1-2 (tiree) -- should be 2-1 (teri)
"ke (qaabil)" is scanned as 2 -- should be "1" (short 'e')
"hoo.n" is scanned as 2 -- should be "1" (short "oo.n")
Line 2:
"(shauq) dekh" is scanned as (2) -- should be 2-1 (de-kh)
"inti" is scanned as (2) -- should be 2-1 (in-ti)
Note that you have correctly scanned the final "dekh" of the second
line as "2" (although some purists will assert that it should be
treated as "2(1)", but let's not go into that right now. To use an
analogy from the field of swimming, it's not wise to attempt to dive
into the deep end when we're just skimming the surface on the shallow
end).
Once you fix the scansion as I have indicated, you will notice that
this sh'er resolves nicely into the behr that has elsewhere been used
by Ghalib for
had(d) chaahiye sazaa meN 'uqoobat ke vaaste
aaKhir gunaahgaar hooN, kaafar naheeN hooN maiN
(Using the 2-1 representation, each misr'a is: 2 2 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 2
1 2)
As for why this core topic is not discussed more at length on this
forum, what can I say. "It is!"? :-) It has IMO been one of the
topics on which ALUP has "spilled the most ink" since its inception --
maybe even more than Naseer saahib's (and UVR's) ever-present Urdu/
Hindi/Faris/Arabic (language) posts.
-UVR.
