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Qalandar Bakhsh Juraat

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Khalid Siddiqui

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May 9, 2021, 11:22:26 PM5/9/21
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Aadaab:
Will someone please complete the first line of couplet?:
dooR DooR aane se..............
Thanks.
Best wishes.
Khalid
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Naseer

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May 10, 2021, 4:49:04 AM5/10/21
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aadaab.

What's the second line? I assume by "dooR Door....", you mean "duur duur....". In this forum we normally use D for ڈ and R for ڑ.
T ٹ
ch چ
Kh or x for خ
Z for ژ
Either an appostrophe or 3 for ع e.g 'aabid/3aabid عابد (An apostrophe is also used for hamzah, e.g Jur'at as in the poet's name)
Gh for غ

ab اَب
aam آم
maaN ماں
in اِن
iiNT اِینٹ
un اُن
uuNT اُونٹ
le لے
mai مَے
ok اوک
aur اَور

For the aspirates, just add an h.
bhaap بھاپ
phuul پھول
Thaakur ٹھاکُر
chhatrii چھتری
rakhaa رکھا
rakkhaa رکھّا

ummiid hai kih aap yih nahiiN samjheN ge kih maiN aap ko paTTii paRhaa rahaa huuN!:-)

Naseer

Raj Kumar

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May 10, 2021, 11:57:48 AM5/10/21
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***Khalid sahib, lagta hai k aap is she'r ka duusra misr'a jaante haiN. agar aap ne voh misr'a bhi likh diyaa hota to aap ke savaal ka javaab dene meN aasaani ho jaati.

Raj Kumar**

Khalid Siddiqui

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May 10, 2021, 2:28:55 PM5/10/21
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Aadaab:
I have both the misr3a but some word/words seem to be missing in the first misr3a. Here it is:
dauR dauR aane se Jur'at..............roko mat kya kare
us baichare ki tab3iiat tum peh hai aayii huii
Best wishes.
Khalid

Naseer

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May 10, 2021, 2:46:21 PM5/10/21
to
Khalid aur Raj Kumar SaaHib aadaab.

Is it this one?

dauR dauR ke aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare
is bichaare kii tabii3at tum pih hai aa'ii hu'ii

.......................................................................

Naseer

Khalid Siddiqui

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May 10, 2021, 3:21:32 PM5/10/21
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Aadaab:
I have no idea. That is why I put the question to the group.
Best wishes.
Khalid

Naseer

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May 10, 2021, 3:23:48 PM5/10/21
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OK, allow me to give you an idea. This is *the* shi3r in question.

Naseer

Raj Kumar

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May 10, 2021, 8:39:00 PM5/10/21
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***janaab Naseer sahib:

aap na achchha kiyaa jo apni muNdaraja-baalaa post meN "Urdu in Roman transliteration" par aek suud-maNd sabaq naazireen-e-ALUP ko bil-umuum aur Khalid sahib ko bil-Khusuus pesh kiyaa hai. aap ke is sabaq ko mazeed jilaa dene ke liye, maiN yahaaN aek aisi fahrist pesh kar rahaa huuN, jis meN Dher saare alfaaz (jo d, r, D aur R jaise consonants par mabni haiN) ki transliteration vaazeH kii ga'ii hai. ummeed hai k hamaare kuchh dostoN ke liye yeh fahrist mufeed saabit hogi.

dar = darvaaza; similarly be-dar, dar-ba-dar
daar = suulii
daa'ir, as in muqaddama daa'ir karna
daraa, as in baaNg-e-daraa
darra, as in darra-e-Khaibar

der = delay, dair = maNdir

durr = motii --- often written as 'dur', which isn't wrong but isn't regarded as sophisticated!
dur = a sign-and-sound instruct asking someone to go away or get lost (derives from "door ho jaa!"); in Punjabi, we sometimes say (dur phiTe muNh). That is why you should always write 'durr' when you mean 'motii'!
duur = far, far away! One should never write 'dur' for 'duur'!

daur = an era
daura = a trip
raud = nadi/naddi

ruu-daad --- note two long vowels!

radd karnaa = to reject, to cancel --- 'daal' par tashdeed!
raddi, tardeed, taraddud, mustarad --- kaheeN tashdeed hai, kaheeN naheeN hai!

Dar = fear; Daar = a line, a row (as in kuuNjoN ki Daar)
Darnaa/Daraanaa
daaRhii/DaaRhii = a beard

Dher = a pile; DeRh = one and a half
DeoRhaa vs DeoRhii ---- what a difference!

aar, as in "magar va'ada karte huye aar kyaa thii"? [Iqbaal]
vs
aaR, as in "Gham ko chhupaa liyaa hai tabassum ki aaR meiN"! [Qais]

aaRe aanaa, uRnaa/uRaanaa, uRaan, oRhnaa-bichhona, ----

raRak, raRaknaa/raRkaanaa, riRaknaa, -----

reeRh ki haDDi
aRhaa'ii iiNT ki masjid

daraar/daraaR --- dono suurateN durust haiN!

dauR-dhuup karna, etc.

I hope this helps.

du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***

P.S. Very shortly I'll be back to discuss the original question of this thread. R.K.

Raj Kumar

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May 11, 2021, 12:18:51 AM5/11/21
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***is zimn meN, meri jaanib se do baateN arz haiN:

(i) Khalid sahib ke duusra misr'a bataane se kaam kitna aasaan ho gayaa lagtaa hai. Huzuur, aap aa'iNda bhi jab ko'ii savaal puuchheN to us savaal se mut'alliq jo kuchh aap ko pata ho pahle hi se bataa diyaa keejiye. inaayat hogi!

(ii) Naseer sahib, aap ki taHqeeq yaqeenan "phal-daar" saabit hu'ii hai, albatta -------
even though the she'r you have provided is indeed the desired she'r but it is not *the* desired she'r. vajah yeh k is ka pahla misr'a Khaarij-az-baHr hai. go k lafz 'roko' ke nikal jaane se aur 'ruko' ke aa jaane se misr'a qadre sudhar gayaa hai, phir bhi asl baHr meN nahiiN aa paayaa.

bajaaye is ke k maiN is misr'e ke naqs par uNgali dharuuN, Zoya sahiba se guzaarish hai k voh aa'eN, apne ilm-e-taqtii'a ki chhurii is misr'e par chalaa'eN aur is ke naqs ko DhuuND nikaaleN. aisa karne se un ki mazeed mashq ho jaaye gi aur saath hi Naseer sahib ka marquuma misr'a bhi durust ho jaaye ga. :-)

sab ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

Naseer

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May 11, 2021, 1:49:59 AM5/11/21
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I have realised my error when copying the shi3r Raj Kumar SaaHib but I won't spoil your "fun" by pointing to it:-)

Naseer
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Zoya

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May 11, 2021, 12:02:09 PM5/11/21
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On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 11:18:51 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> bajaaye is ke k maiN is misr'e ke naqs par uNgali dharuuN, Zoya sahiba se guzaarish hai k voh aa'eN, apne ilm-e-taqtii'a ki chhurii is misr'e par chalaa'eN aur is ke naqs ko DhuuND nikaaleN. aisa karne se un ki mazeed mashq ho jaaye gi aur saath hi Naseer sahib ka marquuma misr'a bhi durust ho jaaye ga. :-)
>
> sab ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

Prof RK,

aap kaa hukm sar aaNkhoN par! :-)

To be honest, the first misr'a of *the* she'r is so obviously out of meter, with such an obvious fix, that there is no need to do any taqtia' ! Here we go:

dauR ke aane se Jur'at ke ruko mat, kyaa kare
is bichaare kii tabi'yat tum pe hai aaii huii

This wasn't much 'fun', may I have another assignment please? :)

jaan kii amaan paauuN to ek she'r aur bhi sunaati chaluuN? With your permission:

sab ho chukaa hai saabit
ab laam qaaf mat kar! ;-)

________Zoya

Raj Kumar

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May 11, 2021, 1:09:27 PM5/11/21
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***ZS, aap ka tajveez-karda misr'a, go k bar-vazn hai magar, mere aNdaaze se bahut muKhtalif hai, is liye k mere nazdeek lafz 'dauR' ki takraar (chuuN-k Khalid sahib aur Naseer sahib donoN ki taHreeroN meN aa'ii hai) Ghalat nahiiN ho sakti. Please note that "dauR dauR aanaa" essentially means the same as "dauRe dauRe aanaa"; goyaa, yahaaN 'preposition' ki zaruurat nahiiN hai. is liye, meri Haqeer raaye meN, lafz 'ke' zaa'id hai aur saHiiH misr'a yuuN hai:

dauR dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare

ab Naseer sahib bataa'eN k un ki Ghalati kahaaN par thi aur saHiiH misr'a kyaa hai?

ZS, agar aap ka misr'a saHiiH niklaa to maiN aap ko muNh maangaa in'aam duuN ga aur agar mera misr'a saHiiH nikla to aap ko meri "Khurd-biinii" ka eitiraaf karnaa hogaa! :-)

Back to you, Naseer sahib!

aap sabhoN ka shubh-chintak, Raj Kumar***

Zoya

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May 11, 2021, 2:14:27 PM5/11/21
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On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 12:09:27 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> dauR dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare

> ZS, agar aap ka misr'a saHiiH niklaa to maiN aap ko muNh maangaa in'aam duuN ga aur agar mera misr'a saHiiH nikla to aap ko meri "Khurd-biinii" ka eitiraaf karnaa hogaa! :-)

Prof RK, I like your version much better. Definitely repeating 'dauR' packs a bigger punch. It is also most likely the correct version, as Khalid sahib had speculated in his initial query.

If anyone else reading this is interested in the 'vazn' stuff, let me mention that the first 'dauR' here will be 21 and the second 'dauR' just 2. It is one of those words that can go either way, as per the 'baHr' need.

muNh maangaa na sahi, aap kii marzi kaa hii sahii, magar mujhe kuchh in'aam to milnaa chaahiye. Yes? :)

_______Zoya
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Naseer

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May 11, 2021, 3:46:16 PM5/11/21
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On Tuesday, 11 May 2021 at 18:09:27 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
is liye, meri Haqeer raaye meN, lafz 'ke' zaa'id hai aur saHiiH misr'a yuuN hai:
>
> dauR dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare
>
> ab Naseer sahib bataa'eN k un ki Ghalati kahaaN par thi aur saHiiH misr'a kyaa hai?

> Back to you, Naseer sahib!
>

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

aap kii guunaa-guuN salaaHiyyatoN kaa, jin meN shi3r kii taqtii3/taqtii' (not taqtii'a) kiye ba-Ghair us ke zarre zarre ke vazn tak rasaa'ii aur istitaa3at shaamil hai, kise i3tiraaf nahiiN? aap ba-nafs-i-nafiis is mu3amme kii girah-kushaa'ii meN avvaal darje ke in3aam ke mustaHiq haiN aur bandah-i-Haqiir us girah ko aap tak pahuNchaane meN darjah-i-duvvum kaa talab-gaar! insaaf kaa to yahii taqaazaa hai. aage aap kii marzii jise chaaheN in3aam deN!:-)

hai Ghazab apnii tabii3at us pah* hai aa'ii hu'ii
jis pah paRtii hai har ik kii aaNkh lalchaa'ii hu'ii

saamne mere jo muNh kar ke nahiiN tum baiThte
kyaa kisii ke saamne hai yih qasam khaa'ii hu'ii

saHiiH misra3/misra' (not misr'a :-)) yih hai.

dauR-dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare
is bichaare kii tabii3at tum pah hai aa'ii hu'ii

*pah: Lucknow pronunciation; pih: Delhi pronunciation


Naseer

Raj Kumar

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May 16, 2021, 4:13:37 PM5/16/21
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On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 11:14:27 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 12:09:27 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> > dauR dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare
> > ZS, agar aap ka misr'a saHiiH niklaa to maiN aap ko muNh maangaa in'aam duuN ga aur agar mera misr'a saHiiH nikla to aap ko meri "Khurd-biinii" ka eitiraaf karnaa hogaa! :-
>
>
> If anyone else reading this is interested in the 'vazn' stuff, let me mention that the first 'dauR' here will be 21 and the second 'dauR' just 2. It is one of those words that can go either way, as per the 'baHr' need.
>
***Zoya Sahiba:

Re the above statement, I would like to say ------

(i) I wonder who, among the present day ALUPers, is as interested in matters of 'vazn' as you are?
aek NS the, jo kab ke kinaara-kashii kar gaye!
Afzal sahib aur BG sahib ko is baat ki thoRi-bahut shinaaaKht to hai magar voh is mazmuun ki baareekiyoN meN nahiiN paRte.
aek Naseer sahib haiN, jo zabaan--o-bayaan ke shaa'iq hote huye bhi, baHr aur vazn ki ne'mat se be-nayaaz haiN! :-)
Irfan sahib pahle hi se is dayaa ke kaamyaab shinaavar haiN.
bachaa maiN to phir mujhii Ghareeb ko aap ke farmaan ka paas karna hoga! :-)

(ii) ZS, your foregoing comment, as is, can be quite misleading.

azeeza-e-man, lafz 'dauR' meN yeh karaamaat nahiiN k kahiiN 21 ke vazn par aaye to kahiiN 2 ke vazn par. yeh karaamaat lafz 'aane' ke ibtidaa'ii vowel ki hai jis ne lafz 'dauR' ki 'Re' ko apne aNdar jazb kar liyaa hai. nateejatan, 'dauR aane' ka vazn 21+22 se ghaT kar 222 rah gayaa hai. agar lafz 'dauR' ke ba'ad yeh 'long vowel' na aata to is ka vazn 21 hi rahta.

I'll love to hear your response to this "Tiika-Tipnii" of mine!***

> muNh maangaa na sahi, aap kii marzi kaa hii sahii, magar mujhe kuchh in'aam to milnaa chaahiye. Yes? :)
>
***maiN aap ke is savaal ka javaab apni agli post (jo isi laRii meN ba-naam-e-Naseer sahib hogi) meN duuN ga. aap tab tak liye intizaar farmaaiye!

du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***

P.S. maiN aap ki "DeRh iiNT ki masjid" meN zaruur aa'uuN ga aur aap ki pesh kardah "TeeRhii kheer" ko nigalne ki puuri puuri koshish karuuN ga. R.K.

Raj Kumar

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May 16, 2021, 5:20:10 PM5/16/21
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On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 12:46:16 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 11 May 2021 at 18:09:27 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> is liye, meri Haqeer raaye meN, lafz 'ke' zaa'id hai aur saHiiH misr'a yuuN hai:
> >
> > dauR dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare
> >
> > ab Naseer sahib bataa'eN k un ki Ghalati kahaaN par thi aur saHiiH misr'a kyaa hai?
> > Back to you, Naseer sahib!
> >
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.
>
> aap kii guunaa-guuN salaaHiyyatoN kaa, jin meN shi3r kii taqtii3/taqtii' (not taqtii'a) kiye ba-Ghair us ke zarre zarre ke vazn tak rasaa'ii aur istitaa3at shaamil hai, kise i3tiraaf nahiiN? aap ba-nafs-i-nafiis is mu3amme kii girah-kushaa'ii meN avvaal darje ke in3aam ke mustaHiq haiN aur bandah-i-Haqiir us girah ko aap tak pahuNchaane meN darjah-i-duvvum kaa talab-gaar! insaaf kaa to yahii taqaazaa hai. aage aap kii marzii jise chaaheN in3aam deN!:-)
>
***janaab-e-man, maiN aap ki karam-farmaa'ii ke liye tah-e-dil se shukr-guzaar huuN.

rahii baat in'aam ki to arz hai k agar aap mujhe bhi in'aam ka Haq-daar samajhte haiN to phir in'aam Khalid sahib hi ke haathoN mileN ge. ab aaN-saaHib aap ko, Zoya sahiba ko aur Khaaksaar ko kis kis daraje pe rakhte haiN, yeh baat to hameN unhiiN pe chhoRni hogi!*** :-)

>
> hai Ghazab apnii tabii3at us pah* hai aa'ii hu'ii
> jis pah paRtii hai har ik kii aaNkh lalchaa'ii hu'ii
>
> saamne mere jo muNh kar ke nahiiN tum baiThte
> kyaa kisii ke saamne hai yih qasam khaa'ii hu'ii
>
> saHiiH misra3 yih hai.
>
> dauR-dauR aane se Jur'at ke, ruko mat, kyaa kare
> is bichaare kii tabii3at tum pah hai aa'ii hu'ii
>

***Naseer sahib, hameN is Ghazal ke do aur she'r sunaane ke liye aap ka do baar shukriya. lagta hai, ye Jur'at sahib achchhe-Khaasse riNd the! :-)

du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***

Naseer

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May 16, 2021, 5:44:06 PM5/16/21
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On Sunday, 16 May 2021 at 21:13:37 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> aek Naseer sahib haiN, jo zabaan--o-bayaan ke shaa'iq hote huye bhi, baHr aur vazn ki ne'mat se be-nayaaz haiN! :-)
> Irfan sahib pahle hi se is dayaa ke kaamyaab shinaavar haiN.

> du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

My experience of being in deep water and the art of "shinaavarii/tairnaa", whether it is in a "baHr" or a "daryaa" is not a pleasant one and perhaps for this reason, I have been marred, psychologically, to stay away from anything that reminds me of a near-fatal event. So, perhaps this is the reason I am "be-niyaaz" from this "ni3mat". If you have a few minutes to spare, I shall tell you.

aap jaante haiN kih Panjab ke dehii 3ilaaqoN meN beshtar log gharoN meN gaa'e-bail, bhaiNs-bakrii, murGhiyaaN-batKheN vaGhairah paalte haiN aur hamaare gaa'oN meN bhii aisii hii suurat-i-Haal thii sivaa'e is ke kih hamaare ghar meN bail naheeN the. ghar vaale bataate haiN kih pahle hamaare ghar meN kisii zamaane meN ek gaa'e bhii hu'aa kartii thii lekin jab se maiN ne hosh saNbhaalaa hai, maiN ne to ko'ii nah ko'ii bhaiNs hii dekhii hai. bhaiNs kii xuubii yih hai kih vuh ba-nisbat (desii) gaa'e ke duudh ziyaadah detii hai aur us kaa makkhan ziyaadah maze-daar hotaa hai.

yih us zamaane kii baat hai jab hamaare maqaamii daryaa par abhii "Dam" nahiiN banaa thaa. garmiyoN meN paanii itnii tez raftaarii se aur ThaaTheN maartaa hu'aa bahtaa thaa kih kinaare ke paas khaRe shaKhs par Khauf taarii ho jaataa thaa. hamaare gaa'oN se yih daryaa qariib qariib ek aadh miil ke faasile par thaa. chauRaa'ii kaa andaazah aap is tarH lagaa sakte haiN kih pul ek miil aur do furlong lambaa hai. daryaa ke kinaare par ek vasii3 raqbah thaa jise ham Panjaabii meN
"belaa" kahte haiN. vahaaN par chau-paayoN ke charne ke liye khulii zamiin thii aur kahiiN kahiiN chhoTii baRii jheeleN bhii. phir un se guzar kar, daryaa aataa thaa. daryaa ke is paar hamaaraa gaa'oN thaa aur us paar Jhelum shahr.

hameN skuul se itvaar ko puurii chhuTTii miltii thii (jum3ah ke roz aadhii chhuTTii). apne chachere bhaa'ioN aur dostoN ke saath itvaar ko maiN bhii apnii chahiitii bhaiNs ko charaane ke liye bele aur daryaa kinaare le kar jaataa thaa. aap maaneN yaa nah maaneN, vahaaN par agar ek hazaar bhaiNseN bhii jam3 ho jaatiiN, tab bhii maiN apnii bhaiNs kii pahchaan kar letaa thaa!!

garmiyoN ke ek din isii tarH maiN, mere chachere bhaa'ii aur chand dost apnii apnii bhaiNseN liye daryaa chale ga'e taa kih yih sab peT-bhar kar ghaas chareN, daryaa meN nahaa'eN aur ThaNDaa ThaNDaa paanii piyeN. ek do GhaNTe ke ba'd mere bhaa'iyoN aur dostoN ko tairne kii suujhii. sab ne is "tuufaanii" daryaa meN chhalaaNgeN lagaa diiN. mujhe bhii paanii meN aane ko kahne lage. maiN ne unheN bataayaa kih mujhe tairnaa nahiiN aataa. kahne lage, ko'ii baat nahiiN. apnii bhaiNs ko haaNk kar paanii meN le aa'o aur us kii dum pakaR lo aur juuN hii paanii thoRaa gahraa aa ja'e, apne pairoN ko uupar niiche hilaanaa shuruu3 kar do! Being stupid and gullible..maiN ne aisaa hii kiyaa. apnii bhaiNs ko maiN paanii meN le aayaa aur us
be-chaarii kii dum pakaR kar paa'oN uupar niiche maarne lagaa. paanii yax-ThanDaa thaa. pahle to lagaa kih merii saaNs hii ruk jaa'e gii lekin chand second ke ba3d kuchh 3aadii saa ho gayaa. jii hii jii meN xush hu'aa kih tairnaa to itnaa mushkil nahiiN aur maiN yuuN hii ghabraa rahaa huuN. thoRii hii der ke ba3d merii bhaiNs ne, bilaa mujhe bataa'e, Dubkii lagaa dii aur mujhe bhii saath niiche le ga'ii! zindagii meN pahlii baar maiN zer-i-aab, bhaiNs kii dum pakRe,ThaNDaaThaNDaa paanii nigal rahaa thaa!!! dimaaGh meN aayaa kih Naseer miyaaN, is dunyaa meN yih tumhaaraa aaxirii din hai. yih soch hii rahaa thaa kih bhaiNs dobaarah paanii se baahar nikal aa'ii aur tair kar baahar aa ga'ii aur mujhe bhii khaiNch kar saath le a'ii.Khush-qismatii se maiN ne us kii dum kaa "daaman" nahiiN chhoRaa thaa. ek do ulTiyoN ke ba3d jab zaraa saNbalaa to sab ko man man kii gaaliyaaN bakne lagaa aur kahne lagaa kih tum logoN ne mujhe kyoN nahiiN bataayaa kih bhaiNs Dubkii bhii lagaa'e gii!!

Naseer

Zoya

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May 16, 2021, 11:52:26 PM5/16/21
to
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 3:13:37 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> > If anyone else reading this is interested in the 'vazn' stuff, let me mention that the first 'dauR' here will be 21 and the second 'dauR' just 2. It is one of those words that can go either way, as per the 'baHr' need.
> >
> ***Zoya Sahiba:
>
> Re the above statement, I would like to say ------
>
> (i) I wonder who, among the present day ALUPers, is as interested in matters of 'vazn' as you are?
> aek NS the, jo kab ke kinaara-kashii kar gaye!

Prof RK,

Oh, how I miss my study buddy! Nagesh sahib, where are you?

> bachaa maiN to phir mujhii Ghareeb ko aap ke farmaan ka paas karna hoga! :-)

aap to akele hii savaa laakh haiN! :-)

> (ii) ZS, your foregoing comment, as is, can be quite misleading.
>
> azeeza-e-man, lafz 'dauR' meN yeh karaamaat nahiiN k kahiiN 21 ke vazn par aaye to kahiiN 2 ke vazn par. yeh karaamaat lafz 'aane' ke ibtidaa'ii vowel ki hai jis ne lafz 'dauR' ki 'Re' ko apne aNdar jazb kar liyaa hai. nateejatan, 'dauR aane' ka vazn 21+22 se ghaT kar 222 rah gayaa hai. agar lafz 'dauR' ke ba'ad yeh 'long vowel' na aata to is ka vazn 21 hi rahta.
>
> I'll love to hear your response to this "Tiika-Tipnii" of mine!***

I will readily admit that I thought I had figured it out early in the misra', and did not even bother to get past the second 'dauR'. Otherwise, I might have joined the 'R' with the following 'aa', I have done such grafting in some previous exercises. I honestly thought that I could take the liberty with 'dauR' and use it as 21. The reason being I had 'aur' in mind, which can be either 2 or 21.

I have a follow up question for you: Is 'aur' unique in this sense or can such flexibility ever be extended to words like 'taur' or 'daur'? If not, then end of story. If yes then why 'daur' and not 'dauR'? Just asking so I can get perfect clarity on such words and avoid similar errors in future.

Now this exercise has actually turned into real 'fun' for me. :)

> > muNh maangaa na sahi, aap kii marzi kaa hii sahii, magar mujhe kuchh in'aam to milnaa chaahiye. Yes? :)
> >
> ***maiN aap ke is savaal ka javaab apni agli post (jo isi laRii meN ba-naam-e-Naseer sahib hogi) meN duuN ga. aap tab tak liye intizaar farmaaiye!

I just saw your next reply. Interesting. koii baat nahiiN RK sahib, maiN to apnaa 'prize' aap se kisi aur vaqt le hii luuN gii. vaise agar Khalid sahib bhii mujhe koii in'aam denaa chaaheN, to voh bhi sar aaNkhoN par! :-)

> du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***
>
> P.S. maiN aap ki "DeRh iiNT ki masjid" meN zaruur aa'uuN ga aur aap ki pesh kardah "TeeRhii kheer" ko nigalne ki puuri puuri koshish karuuN ga. R.K.

Now that feedback I am eagerly waiting for. Real curious.

Thank you, as always.

______Zoya

Raj Kumar

unread,
May 17, 2021, 5:22:39 PM5/17/21
to
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:52:26 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 3:13:37 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> >
> > Re the above statement, I would like to say ------
> >
> > (i) I wonder who, among the present day ALUPers, is as interested in matters of 'vazn' as you are?
> > aek NS the, jo kab ke kinaara-kashii kar gaye!

> Prof RK,
>
> Oh, how I miss my study buddy! Nagesh sahib, where are you?

***Zoya Rani,

jo chalaa gayaa, use bhuul jaa
jo nahiiN gaye, unheN yaad rakh!*** ;-)

> > (ii) ZS, your foregoing comment, as is, can be quite misleading.
> >
> > azeeza-e-man, lafz 'dauR' meN yeh karaamaat nahiiN k kahiiN 21 ke vazn par aaye to kahiiN 2 ke vazn par. yeh karaamaat lafz 'aane' ke ibtidaa'ii vowel ki hai jis ne lafz 'dauR' ki 'Re' ko apne aNdar jazb kar liyaa hai. nateejatan, 'dauR aane' ka vazn 21+22 se ghaT kar 222 rah gayaa hai. agar lafz 'dauR' ke ba'ad yeh 'long vowel' na aata to is ka vazn 21 hi rahta.
> > ***

> I will readily admit that I thought I had figured it out early in the misra', and did not even bother to get past the second 'dauR'. Otherwise, I might have joined the 'R' with the following 'aa', I have done such grafting in some previous exercises. I honestly thought that I could take the liberty with 'dauR' and use it as 21. The reason being I had 'aur' in mind, which can be either 2 or 21.

***Confusion persists, so I'll simply skirt around it! :-( ***

> I have a follow up question for you: Is 'aur' unique in this sense or can such flexibility ever be extended to words like 'taur' or 'daur'? If not, then end of story. If yes then why 'daur' and not 'dauR'? Just asking so I can get perfect clarity on such words and avoid similar errors in future.
>
***Now confusion abounds, so I'll skirt around this one too! :-( ***

> Now this exercise has actually turned into real 'fun' for me. :)

***Frankly, not so for me --- because in conveying my lesson to you I seem to have failed miserably. So, as a last attempt, I will cite a few examples for you to go through SLOWLY AND DILIGENTLY, and will let you understand the underlying idea(s) by yourself.
Let's go ----------

voh di*laavez Khadd-e-Khaal kahaaN

haNsii laboN pe nahiiN, aaNkh bhii pu*raab nahiiN

Khaa*kuRaanii hai to phir ko'ii bhi veeraana sahii

un ko zebaa'ii bhi phabtii hai, Khu*daaraa'ii bhii

goyaa, ku*chhis qadar Gham-e-aasuudagii nahiiN

har nazar ko teri dar*dafzaa samajh baiThe the ham

jaag, ai sub'H-e-qayaamat, uTh a*bai dard-e-Hayaat

zeb dete haiN Firaa*qauroN ko kab yeh kufriyaat

ham bayaabaaN meN haiN aur ghar meN bahaa*raa'ii hai

bas ik jhalak na*zaraa'ii, uRay Kaliim ke hosh

dekhnaa qismat k aa*papne pe rash*kaa jaaye hai

tuu au*raaraa'ish-e-Kham-e-kaakul
maiN au*raNdesha-haa-e-duur-o-daraaz

R.K.***

Zoya

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May 18, 2021, 11:16:35 AM5/18/21
to
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Frankly, not so for me --- because in conveying my lesson to you I seem to have failed miserably.

Prof RK,

First of all , let me apologize for not being very articulate about the root cause of my confusion. You did not fail at all in your explanation. My confusion was very basic, I treated 'dauR' in the same manner as 'aur' and took the liberty to use it with flexible weights 2 and 21. You have already stated it should be 21, I just wanted reconfirmation of that. That was all.

So, as a last attempt, I will cite a few examples for you to go through SLOWLY AND DILIGENTLY, and will let you understand the underlying idea(s) by yourself.

I totally understand you absorbing 'R' with the following 'aa. In fact I have played this game in the past while working with some other misra'as. No confusion regarding that.

Thank you so much for the beautiful examples you provided for me to further reinforce the art of word grafting in Urdu meter. This is a remarkable tool to have while doing taqtii'.

> Let's go ----------

> voh di*laavez Khadd-e-Khaal kahaaN
>
> haNsii laboN pe nahiiN, aaNkh bhii pu*raab nahiiN
>
> Khaa*kuRaanii hai to phir ko'ii bhi veeraana sahii
>
> un ko zebaa'ii bhi phabtii hai, Khu*daaraa'ii bhii
>
> goyaa, ku*chhis qadar Gham-e-aasuudagii nahiiN
>
> har nazar ko teri dar*dafzaa samajh baiThe the ham
>
> jaag, ai sub'H-e-qayaamat, uTh a*bai dard-e-Hayaat
>
> zeb dete haiN Firaa*qauroN ko kab yeh kufriyaat
>
> ham bayaabaaN meN haiN aur ghar meN bahaa*raa'ii hai
>
> bas ik jhalak na*zaraa'ii, uRay Kaliim ke hosh
>
> dekhnaa qismat k aa*papne pe rash*kaa jaaye hai
>
> tuu au*raaraa'ish-e-Kham-e-kaakul
> maiN au*raNdesha-haa-e-duur-o-daraaz

To convince you that I have studied this process diligently, I summarize it can be applied between two adjacent words only when the first word ends in a consonant and the second begins with 'alif' or 'alif madd'. All of the misra'as quoted by you fit these constraints.

> R.K.***

Prof RK, out of all the misra'as quoted, this one is my favorite:

un ko zebaa'ii bhi phabtii hai, Khu*daaraa'ii bhii :-)

Totally my kind of thought. Love it! :-))

Thanks a lot for your time and patience. If you want, you may lower my rating from 4.8999 to 4.809, but only temporarily.

Still your **star** pupil,

_____Zoya

Raj Kumar

unread,
May 18, 2021, 6:30:23 PM5/18/21
to
On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 8:16:35 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
>
> Thank you so much for the beautiful examples you provided for me to further reinforce the art of word grafting in Urdu meter. This is a remarkable tool to have while doing taqtii'.

***You are welcome, ZS.***

> > Let's go ----------
>
> > voh di*laavez Khadd-e-Khaal kahaaN
> >
> > haNsii laboN pe nahiiN, aaNkh bhii pu*raab nahiiN
> >
> > Khaa*kuRaanii hai to phir ko'ii bhi veeraana sahii
> >
> > un ko zebaa'ii bhi phabtii hai, Khu*daaraa'ii bhii
> >
> > goyaa, ku*chhis qadar Gham-e-aasuudagii nahiiN
> >
> > har nazar ko teri dar*dafzaa samajh baiThe the ham
> >
> > jaag, ai sub'H-e-qayaamat, uTh a*bai dard-e-Hayaat
> >
> > zeb dete haiN Firaa*qauroN ko kab yeh kufriyaat
> >
> > ham bayaabaaN meN haiN aur ghar meN bahaa*raa'ii hai
> >
> > bas ik jhalak na*zaraa'ii, uRay Kaliim ke hosh
> >
> > dekhnaa qismat k aa*papne pe rash*kaa jaaye hai
> >
> > tuu au*raaraa'ish-e-Kham-e-kaakul
> > maiN au*raNdesha-haa-e-duur-o-daraaz

> To convince you that I have studied this process diligently, I summarize it can be applied between two adjacent words only when the first word ends in a consonant and the second begins with 'alif' or 'alif madd'. All of the misra'as quoted by you fit these constraints.

***Now this is precisely what I expected to hear from you, i.e., the rule is very general, so long as -------------- !

Even so, a couple of points:

(i) Since 'alif madd' is simply an elongation of 'alif', there is no need to mention it separately. 'alif' alone should be fine.

(ii) maiN aksar kahta huuN k duusre lafz ka aaGhaaz 'vowel sound' se hona chaahiye; kabhi kabhi maiN ne 'long vowel' bhi kahaa hai. albatta, aaj ke ba'ad mere liye bhi sirf 'alif' kahna hi bajaa hoga.
dekhiye, meri misaaloN meN kaheeN 'short vowel' hai to kaheeN 'long', magar 'alif' har jagah maujuud hai.

(iii) hamaare liye maHz 'vowel sound' kahna bhi Theek nahiiN hoga kyuuN-k bahut se alfaaz, jo Harf 'ain' se shuruu' hote haiN, un ki ibtidaa'ii aavaaz ain 'vowel' qism ki hoti hai ------------ magar aise alfaaz ke saath yeh 'grafting' nahuiiN ki jaati. Therefore, once again, sirf 'alif' kahna hi vaajib hai.

dekhiye, aap ko sikhaate sikhaate Khud maiN ne bhi Dher saari baateN seekh lii haiN! :-) ***

> Prof RK, out of all the misra'as quoted, this one is my favorite:
>
> un ko zebaa'ii bhi phabtii hai, Khu*daaraa'ii bhii :-)
>
> Totally my kind of thought. Love it! :-))
>
> Thanks a lot for your time and patience. If you want, you may lower my rating from 4.8999 to 4.809, but only temporarily.
>
***vaah vaah, aap ne ta'areef ke liye misr'a chunaa to voh bhi janaab-e-Qais ka!
maan gaye aap ki hoshyaari, Zoya sahiba! jab aap ko apne 'grades' kam hone ka Khadsha dar-pesh aayaa to aap hamaari chaapluusi pe utar aa'iiN?
na na na, aisa mat keejiye, azeeza. aap ko jo misr'a diyaanat-daaraana pasaNd aaye, aap sirf usi misr'e ki ta'areef keejiye --- kisi aur ki nahiiN! :-)

R.K.***

Zoya

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May 18, 2021, 11:37:57 PM5/18/21
to
On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 5:30:23 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***Now this is precisely what I expected to hear from you, i.e., the rule is very general, so long as -------------- !

Thank you Prof RK. Redeemed. :-)

> Even so, a couple of points:
>
> (i) Since 'alif madd' is simply an elongation of 'alif', there is no need to mention it separately. 'alif' alone should be fine.
>
> (ii) maiN aksar kahta huuN k duusre lafz ka aaGhaaz 'vowel sound' se hona chaahiye; kabhi kabhi maiN ne 'long vowel' bhi kahaa hai. albatta, aaj ke ba'ad mere liye bhi sirf 'alif' kahna hi bajaa hoga.
> dekhiye, meri misaaloN meN kaheeN 'short vowel' hai to kaheeN 'long', magar 'alif' har jagah maujuud hai.
>
> (iii) hamaare liye maHz 'vowel sound' kahna bhi Theek nahiiN hoga kyuuN-k bahut se alfaaz, jo Harf 'ain' se shuruu' hote haiN, un ki ibtidaa'ii aavaaz ain 'vowel' qism ki hoti hai ------------ magar aise alfaaz ke saath yeh 'grafting' nahuiiN ki jaati. Therefore, once again, sirf 'alif' kahna hi vaajib hai.

Actually, at first I too had wanted to write only 'alif', but then modified a bit because I wasn't sure if that would be completely inclusive of the long 'aa'. After reading your points, I agree that just 'alif' will take care of all the cases. What a simple but oh-so useful rule! How nice.

> dekhiye, aap ko sikhaate sikhaate Khud maiN ne bhi Dher saari baateN seekh lii haiN! :-) ***
:-)))

> > Prof RK, out of all the misra'as quoted, this one is my favorite:
> >
> > un ko zebaa'ii bhi phabtii hai, Khu*daaraa'ii bhii :-)

> ***vaah vaah, aap ne ta'areef ke liye misr'a chunaa to voh bhi janaab-e-Qais ka!
> maan gaye aap ki hoshyaari, Zoya sahiba! jab aap ko apne 'grades' kam hone ka Khadsha dar-pesh aayaa to aap hamaari chaapluusi pe utar aa'iiN?
> na na na, aisa mat keejiye, azeeza. aap ko jo misr'a diyaanat-daaraana pasaNd aaye, aap sirf usi misr'e ki ta'areef keejiye --- kisi aur ki nahiiN! :-)

> R.K.***

yeh aap kaa misr'a hai? mujhe sach meN ilm nahiiN thaa. I genuinely liked it the best.

But to be perfectly truthful, if really needed, I am capable of 'chaapluusi' too! Got to save my 'A', Prof RK. :-)

Back to 4.8999--->4.9,

_______Zoya
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