Sayyid Ahmed Shah, "Patras" Bukhari- mai-kade

[Naseer]

Haaziriin-i-maHfil, aadaab 3arz hai

liijiye, Patras Bukhari kii ek chhotii sii taxliiq...mai-kade meN..


mai-kade meN

jo tuu kahe to kisii mai-kade meN chal baiTheN
jo dil kii baat hai dil meN dil kii baat kareN

maiN xum ke saa'e meN sar-goshiyaaN karuuN aisii
kih tire lab merii har baat ko nabaat kareN

jo be-sabaat hai dunyaa to be-sabaat sahii
fareb-i-mai se ise aur be-sabaat kareN

agar manaarah-i-Kisraa pih din nikal aa'e
to chashm vaa nah kareN aur din ko raat kareN

......................................

Naseer

[Zuhra]

Patras Bukhari ke kalaam ke liye shukria, Ghaliban is se pehle kabhi
unki shaa'iri ALUP par post naheeN hui hai. Patras Bukhari ne jo
thoRii bohat shaa'iri ki hai us meN ek muKhtasir si nazm bachchoN ke
liye bhi hai. mujhe is nazm ki rawaani bohat pasand huaa karti thi,
balke ab bhi hai.

nazm pesh hai...

Delhi kii sair

ek chhoTaa saa laRkaa Allahabaad kaa
apne ghar se chalaa aur Delhi gayaa

waaN jo puhNchaa to dekhaa

kih us jaa ke laRke haiN waise hii nannhe
aur us jaa ke ganne haiN waise hii lambe
aur us jaa kii barfii hai waisii hii meeThii
aur us jaa kii billii hai waisii hii moTii
aur us jaa kii chiRyaaN haiN wesii hii chhoTii
aur us jaa ke chaalees haiN bees aur bees

us ne yeh kuchh jo dekhaa
to hairaaN huaa aur taktaa rahaa
aur taktaa rahaa, aur hairaaN huaa

[Naseer]

Zuhra SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

Thank you for posting this little nazm. I was going to post it, then I
decided to post the other one. A very unique personality indeed,
Patras Bukhari.

Naseer

[Vijay]

Naseer sahib aur Zuhra sahiba, thanks for posting these poems by someone whose prose collection, 'Pitras ke mazaamiin', is my all time favourite. Although in this book, he does switch to poetry here and there, I wasn't aware that he has also written poetry exclusively.

Zuhra sahiba, the poem you have posted is indeed very good. This is the kind of art form that will appeal in different ways to people at different stages of their life. A very young child will be fascinated with the images of animals, birds, sweets etc. When she (let me use female gender for both) grows up a bit, the flow of words will weave its magic, a few more years and the structure of the poem will fascinate. A line like 'aur us jaa ke chaalees haiN bees aur bees' will leave her thrilled. As an adult she will likely see the humanism denoted in these simple sounding lines. So really, the poem fulfills the definition of true art, IMO. In prose I can think of a few works that have fascinated me at different stages of my life, The Little Prince, Alice in Wonderland being a couple towards the top of my list. Contrast this with something like Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, which when I first read at the age of 17, I thought was the greatest book ever written and which I now see as an extremely flawed work.

Naseer sahib,in your post, there is one misra that is out of meter for want of a small word. I will let you figure that one out:-)

Lastly, I have always called him 'Pitras' for some reason.

Regards,

Vijay

[Anil Kala]

>
> ek chhoTaa saa laRkaa Allahabaad kaa
>
> apne ghar se chalaa aur Delhi gayaa
>
>
>
> waaN jo puhNchaa to dekhaa
>
>
>
> kih us jaa ke laRke haiN waise hii nannhe
>
> aur us jaa ke ganne haiN waise hii lambe
>
> aur us jaa kii barfii hai waisii hii meeThii
>
> aur us jaa kii billii hai waisii hii moTii
>
> aur us jaa kii chiRyaaN haiN wesii hii chhoTii
>
> aur us jaa ke chaalees haiN bees aur bees
>
>
>
> us ne yeh kuchh jo dekhaa
>
> to hairaaN huaa aur taktaa rahaa
>
> aur taktaa rahaa, aur hairaaN huaa

Mervalous! This is astonishingly simple but effective piece of poetry.. Reminds me of a dialogue from the movie Dead Man, this character named Nobody (a native American)relates.

They took me from town to town and they all looked the same and the people looked the same I was amazed how they took towns from one place to another so quickly!

[Naseer]

Vijay SaaHib, I myself am not certain if the word should be "Pitras"
which I thought was the correct pronunciation or "Patras". Besides, to
my ears Pitras sounds closer to "Peter". On the other hand, lately I
have seen (in transliteration) and heard in speech the word "Patras"
which is nearer to our "patthar". And as you will know "Peter",
"petroleum", "petrified" and "patthar" are all linked to stone/rock.
Perhaps other friends can chip in.

Is there a "vuh" missing in the second line?

Naseer

[Zuhra]

> Naseer sahib aur Zuhra sahiba, thanks for posting these poems by someone whose prose collection, 'Pitras ke mazaamiin', is my all time favourite. Although in this book, he does switch to poetry here and there, I wasn't aware that he has also written poetry exclusively.
>
> Zuhra sahiba, the poem you have posted is indeed very good. This is the kind of art form that will appeal in different ways to people at different stages of their life. A very young child will be fascinated with the images of animals, birds, sweets etc. When she (let me use female gender for both) grows up a bit, the flow of words will weave its magic, a few more years and the structure of the poem will fascinate. A line like 'aur us jaa ke chaalees haiN bees aur bees' will leave her thrilled. As an adult she will likely see the humanism denoted in these simple sounding lines. So really, the poem fulfills the definition of true art, IMO. In prose I can think of a few works that have fascinated me at different stages of my life, The Little Prince, Alice in Wonderland being a couple towards the top of my list. Contrast this with something like Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, which when I first read at the age of 17, I thought was the greatest book ever written and which I now see as an extremely flawed work.
>
> Naseer sahib,in your post, there is one misra that is out of meter for want of a small word. I will let you figure that one out:-)
>
> Lastly, I have always called him 'Pitras' for some reason.

Vijay sahab aur Anil sahab, is nazm par khoobsoorat tabsare ke liye
shukria.

'Pitras' aur 'Patras' donoN hi talaffuz 'aam haiN. maiN ne do ek jagah
paRhaa hai k Ahmad Shah Bokhari Khud apne pen name ko zabar se bolte
the, to isliye maiN 'patras' ko tarjeeh deti hooN 'Pitras' ki bajaa'e

[Vijay]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 5:59:14 PM UTC, Zuhra wrote:

Naseer sahib: yes, we need 'vuh' in the second misra. If you have the original, please do check, as some other words of similar waz'n may also fit. It will be good to know which one the writer chose.

Zuhra sahiba, you know how sometimes you can't get rid of a tune from your mind? This little poem has similarly taken root in my mind:-)

I do feel that Patras likely wrote 'Dilli' not 'Delhi'. It flows much better with 'dilli'.

Best regards,

Vijay

[Naseer]

On checking the "original", it appears there are errors there too,
Vijay SaaHib. In addition, I think Zuhra SaaHibah should have typed "
Ilaahabaad!.

Naseer

[marr...@gmail.com]

As far as my experience with the pen name of this great personality is concerned it is Patras, this is also how it is spelt in English on a plate in the college in Lahore, commemorating his service there. I am not aware of the
Persian pronunciation, for comparison, but the name in Arabic, with 'be' instead of 'pe' is butrus, if I'm not mistaken!

nek xwaahishaat ke saath
marrish

[Anil Kala]

Vijay Sahab mere bachpan ke shahar ne kya gustaKHi ki hai? Allahabad bhi to ilaahaabad hoga?

[Zuhra]

dar-asl, Allahabad aur Delhi isliye likha gayaa k maiN jab Roman
likhthi hooN to 'umooman shaihroN ke naamoN ke liye standard spelling
rehne deti hooN. waise, kitaab meN الہ آباد aur دھلی likhaa hai.

Naseer sahab, aap aur Vijay sahab jis she'r ki baat kar rahe haiN us
meN lafz 'woh' hii hai. mere paas do kulliyaat e Patras haiN - ek wo
jo maiN ne Khud Khareedi thi kuchh arsah pehle aur us meN bohat
GhalatiyaN haiN. dusri kulliyaat bohat, bohat ziyaadah puraanii hai
aur us meN, kam az kam mujhe, GhalatiyaaN nazar naheeN aateeN. is
puraanii kitaab meN Patras ke Khatoot, afsaane, Khutbaat, shaa'irii,
aur mazaameen waGhairah sab shaamil haiN.

Zuhra

[Vijay Kumar]

On Feb 24, 6:19 pm, Zuhra <zuhra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> dar-asl, Allahabad aur Delhi isliye likha gayaa k maiN jab Roman
> likhthi hooN to 'umooman shaihroN ke naamoN ke liye standard spelling
> rehne deti hooN.

Zuhra sahiba:

'aurr bastii nahiiN, yih Delhi hai'
'ham ne mana ki raheN Delhi meN pe khaaeN ge kya'
'Calcutta' ka jo zik'r kiia...'

somehow doesn't inspire:-)

Vijay

[Naseer]

You have a point, Vijay SaaHib, but there are exceptions.

ham ne yih maanaa kih dillii meN raheN, khaa'eN ge kyaa?

bha'ii kyaa puuchhte ho? kyaa likhuuN? dihlii kii hastii munHasir
ka’ii haNgaamoN pih hai;qal3ah,chaaNdnii chauk, har roz majma3 jaami3
masjid kaa,har hafte sair jamnaa ke pul kii, har saal melaa phuul
vaaloN kaa. yih paaNchoN baateN ab nahiiN, phir kaho dihlii kahaaN?
haaN, ko'ii shahr is naam kaa Hindustaan meN thaa! (Ghalib)

Naseer

[Afzal A. Khan]

Of course, different people have their own system (if that) for
transcribing Urdu in Roman English. But it seems reasonable to
retain the Urdu pronunciation and spelling, even while writing
in Roman, at least to the extent possible. Some people write
"Daag", while I prefer to write "DaaGH".

A well-known ghazal of Meer has the following verse :

Sab gaye hosh-o-sabr-o-tab-o-tawaaN
Lekin ai daaGH dil se tu na gaya

Here, if we write "daag", it somehow seems to detract from the
true flavour of the verse.

Urdu poetry uses both spellings for the Indian capital, "Dilli"
and "Dehli". DaaGH, in his marsiya about the city, says :

Jawaab kaahe ko tha, laa~jawaab thi Dilli,
Magar KHayaal se dekha to KH(w)aab thi Dilli

KH(w)aaja Altaaf Husain Haali has also written a mournful dirge
about the "demise" of the Mughal imperial capital :

Tazkira Dehli-e-marhoom ka ai dost na chheR
Na suna jaayega hum se yeh fasaana har'giz

*********************


Zauq's misra' : I suppose there are different versions of this.

I recall reading it as :

Hum ne yeh maana ke Dilli men raheN, khaayeNge kya

Ghalib's misra' : The Britishers' spelling of the former capital
seems to have a pronunciation almost similar to
what Ghalib writes, except that the former
puts stress on the first syllable, while Ghalib
puts it on the second syllable :

Kal-katte ka jo zikr kiya........





Afzal

[Vijay]

On Monday, February 25, 2013 11:53:03 PM UTC, Naseer wrote:
>
> You have a point, Vijay SaaHib, but there are exceptions.
>
>
>
> ham ne yih maanaa kih dillii meN raheN, khaa'eN ge kyaa?
>
>
>
> bha'ii kyaa puuchhte ho? kyaa likhuuN? dihlii kii hastii munHasir
>
> ka’ii haNgaamoN pih hai;qal3ah,chaaNdnii chauk, har roz majma3 jaami3
>
> masjid kaa,har hafte sair jamnaa ke pul kii, har saal melaa phuul
>
> vaaloN kaa. yih paaNchoN baateN ab nahiiN, phir kaho dihlii kahaaN?
>
> haaN, ko'ii shahr is naam kaa Hindustaan meN thaa! (Ghalib)
>
>
>
> Naseer

Thanks Naseer sahib. My response to Zuhra sahiba was in lighter vein. Yet, it comes as a surprise that Ghalib wrote 'dilli' as 'dihli' in some of his letters. I left India (Panjab) in 1979 and in Panjabi at least, 'dilli' was still the common way to enunciate the name of the capital. In old Indian movies too, I think 'dilli was the preferred pronunciation. 'dilli hai dil hindusatan kaa', for example. Could your examples from Ghalib's letters be errors of printing, by any chance?

Thanks for correcting my error in that misra by Ghalib (that Afzal sahib has erroneously attributed to Zauq). In that misra, I am sure Ghalib writes 'dilli. At least that is how it is printed in the couple of Ghalib books I have.

The example of 'Calcutta' was deliberately over the top. Merely to highlight the 'lighter vein' point.

There is another interesting point. 'dehli' 'dihli' 'dilli' are close enough in their weight and can be used interchangeably without throwing off the meter. E.g. 'dehli gaya' 'dilli gaya' or 'dihli gaya'; all rhyme just fine. But not in Canada or America, where 'Delhi' is pronounced as 'del-haa-ii'!

Best regards,

Vijay

[Naseer]

Vijay SaaHib, this is how the late Kaifi Azmi has pronounced the word.
This is from an LP I've got containing Ghalib Ghazals sung by Rafi and
Begum Akhtar. Each Ghazal is "introduced" by Kaifi Azmi with a quote
from one of Ghalib's letters. Khayyam was the music composer. This LP
came out as part of Ghalib's Centenary celebrations.

I understand that dihlii/dehlii is the older word. I am not surprised
by the way that it is dillii in Punjabi. This topic was discussed in
another forum recently. You might like to read what the participants
said there.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2404175&highlight=Dihlii

Naseer

[Vijay]

Thanks Naseer sahib. This is quite a revelation. I had a somewhat simplistic notion that 'dilli' was the original 'indic' 'indiginous' word and the 'h' sound was introduced by the British. Your link is quite an eye opener.

Well, Zuhra sahiba, seems like the joke is on me!:-)

Regards,

Vijay

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 2/26/2013 1:18 AM, Vijay wrote:


> On Monday, February 25, 2013 11:53:03 PM UTC, Naseer wrote:
>>
>> You have a point, Vijay SaaHib, but there are exceptions.
>>
>>
>>
>> ham ne yih maanaa kih dillii meN raheN, khaa'eN ge kyaa?
>>
>>
>>
>> bha'ii kyaa puuchhte ho? kyaa likhuuN? dihlii kii hastii munHasir
>>

>> ka�ii haNgaamoN pih hai;qal3ah,chaaNdnii chauk, har roz majma3 jaami3

>>
>> masjid kaa,har hafte sair jamnaa ke pul kii, har saal melaa phuul
>>
>> vaaloN kaa. yih paaNchoN baateN ab nahiiN, phir kaho dihlii kahaaN?
>>
>> haaN, ko'ii shahr is naam kaa Hindustaan meN thaa! (Ghalib)
>>
>>
>>
>> Naseer
>
> Thanks Naseer sahib. My response to Zuhra sahiba was in lighter vein. Yet, it comes as a surprise that Ghalib wrote 'dilli' as 'dihli' in some of his letters. I left India (Panjab) in 1979 and in Panjabi at least, 'dilli' was still the common way to enunciate the name of the capital. In old Indian movies too, I think 'dilli was the preferred pronunciation. 'dilli hai dil hindusatan kaa', for example. Could your examples from Ghalib's letters be errors of printing, by any chance?
>
> Thanks for correcting my error in that misra by Ghalib (that Afzal sahib has erroneously attributed to Zauq). In that misra, I am sure Ghalib writes 'dilli. At least that is how it is printed in the couple of Ghalib books I have.
>
> The example of 'Calcutta' was deliberately over the top. Merely to highlight the 'lighter vein' point.
>
> There is another interesting point. 'dehli' 'dihli' 'dilli' are close enough in their weight and can be used interchangeably without throwing off the meter. E.g. 'dehli gaya' 'dilli gaya' or 'dihli gaya'; all rhyme just fine. But not in Canada or America, where 'Delhi' is pronounced as 'del-haa-ii'!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vijay

Re: Zauq(xx)

Yes, that was my mistake. I had been thinking of Zauq's

Kaun jaaye Zauq par Dilli ki galiyaaN chhoR kar


Re: Dihli

I don't quite know how this particular variant is transcribed
in the Urdu script, and how one can distinguish it. Any
examples in the Urdu script ?

Re: del-haa-ii

I am not sure if the second syllable has such a pronounced "aa"
sound. Also, the first letter is more like the capital "D", as
in "Darpok". Additionally, the folks in these countries are
apt to speak more about "New Delhi", than simply "Delhi".

Just my view.


Afzal

[Vijay]

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:38:14 PM UTC, Afzal A. Khan wrote:


> Re: del-haa-ii

>
>
> Additionally, the folks in these countries are
>
> apt to speak more about "New Delhi", than simply "Delhi".
>

Maybe true when they are talking about Delhi in India but not when they are talking about 'Delhi' in California, Louisiana or the one in Ontario! And then some cities have 'Delhi' streets, like the one in Guelph, Ontario which was a neighbouring town when I lived in Canada.

Anyway, my point was that although different spellings as posted by Naseer sahib, won't affect the meter of a certain misra, Delhi's north American pronunciation will.

Vijay

[Zuhra]

Vijay saahab, maiN aap sab ki raa'e kaa ehtaraam karti hooN aur
samajhti hooN k aap sab ko meraa 'Delhi' aur 'Allahabad' likhna kyoN
naa-mauzooN lagaa hai. mujhe ummeed hai k aap ko andaazah ho gaa k
maiN ne jab 'Delhi' likkha thaa to mere zehn meN iskaa Urdu talaffuz
'Dehli' thaa naa k 'del-haa-i' :) baaqi, is thread ne merii ma'loomaat
meN bhi izaafah kiyaa hai.

Zuhra

[Afzal A. Khan]

I have a feeling that that this thread has meandered away from
its original import. Naseer Saheb had posted a ghazal by Janaab
Pitras Bukhari and that should have been the focus of our
attention. Instead, we seem to have been concentrating on the
pronunciation of its author's name and then about 'Dehli', "Dilli'
etc. {I crave the indulgence of ALUPers for this view.}

I have a few questions about this composition and invite the
comments of other ALUPers regarding the same :

1. In the first misra' of the first sher, is the expression "chal
baiTheN" faseeh ? I think "jaa baiTheN" has a better feel to
it.

2. In the second misra' of the same sher, can we add a word like
"to", after "dil men" ? Somehow, I doubt if this misra' is
in metre (without such addition).

3. "KHum ke saaye men" doesn't seem to be appropriate. "KHum" is
much too small an item for a lover (person) to whisper under
its shade.

4. In the second misra', the second word needs to be spelled as
"tere", rather than "tire"; "merii" can be shortened to "mirii".

5. What exactly does "nabaat" mean here ? Does it mean a tree
(cypress or juniper etc.) ? The poet does use "saaye" earlier
but the overall sense is not quite clear.

6. Is it "manaara" or "minaara" ? I have heard the word being
pronounced with a 'zer'. Even the English equivalent is
spelled as "minaret". In Lahore, I believe there is a monument
called "Meenaar-e-Pakistan".

7. The meaning of the last sher is not clear. What is the connec-
tion between sunrise over the (Persian) minaret and the advice
to treat the day (or light) as night ?

I do admit that my understanding of the deeper meaning and nuances
of Urdu poetry is rather meagre, hence these queries.



Afzal

[Anil Kala]

> I have a few questions about this composition and invite the
>
> comments of other ALUPers regarding the same :

> 3. "KHum ke saaye men" doesn't seem to be appropriate. "KHum" is
>
> much too small an item for a lover (person) to whisper under
>
> its shade.

I suppose the poet means 'nashe meN' by 'KHum ke saayen meN'

> 4. In the second misra', the second word needs to be spelled as
>
> "tere", rather than "tire"; "merii" can be shortened to "mirii".
>
>
>
> 5. What exactly does "nabaat" mean here ? Does it mean a tree
>
> (cypress or juniper etc.) ? The poet does use "saaye" earlier
>
> but the overall sense is not quite clear.

if 'nabaat' mean cypress then it makes sense... over all meaning being 'I will say my thing intoxicated and you will only elaborate it like the tall cypress

> 7. The meaning of the last sher is not clear. What is the connec-
>
> tion between sunrise over the (Persian) minaret and the advice
>
> to treat the day (or light) as night ?

I suppose the meaning is 'when the sun rises over the minaret (i.e first sign of the day) we will ignore it and keep the (vasl) ki raat going....

[Naseer]

janaab-i-Afzal SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

If the contents of your last sentence were indeed true, there is no
hope whatsoever for the rest of us! :-)

When I posted this Ghazal by Patras/Pitras Bukhari, I too was a bit
unsure about some points which I hoped would come under discussion. As
it happens, we have your gracious presence and through your long list
of queries, we have been made to turn to the topic at hand.

I don't know if Zuhra SaaHibah would be kind enough to consult her
copy of "Patras ke mazaamiin" which she believes to be of good
quality. At least we would then know if there are errors in my
original post, which I copied from a source on the net.

1) Yes to my mind "jaa baiTheN" sounds much more normal than "chal
baiTheN". Let's see if Zuhra SaaHibah can help us here.

2) Vijay SaaHib, being a prosodist, has already pointed to this. I
believe Zuhra SaaHibah has confirmed that a "vuh" is missing in this
line.

3) Perhaps we should take the meaning as a huge "barrell"!:-) On a
serious note, could it be that "xum" here is just a symbol for the mai-
kadah as a whole. "xum ke saa'e meN"..."in the environment of a
tavern".

4) I have no doubt you would be right here. Once again, I am sure
Zuhra SaaHibah could come to our assistance.

5) I think "nabaat" here means "misrii" (as per one of my reliable
dictionaries).

maiN xum ke saa'e meN sar-goshiyaaN karuuN aisii
kih tire lab merii har baat ko nabaat kareN

maiN mai-kade kii mai se (yaa us maaaul se) mast ho kar tumhaare
kaanoN meN jo sar-goshiyaaN karuuN, ho saktaa hai kih vuh tumheN naa-
shaa'istah lageN lekin jab tum unhiiN allfaaz ko duhraa'o to tumhaare
lab unheN misrii kii tarH shiiriiN banaa deN! Just a guess!

6) Just like the word is really "mustaqbal" and not mustaqbil", the
word is "manaarah" and Urdu dictionaries give this as the primary
word. "miinaar" is its corrupted form ("miinaar isii kaa bigRaa hu'aa
hai").

7) In this couplet..,

agar manaarah-i-Kisraa pih din nikal aa'e
to chashm vaa nah kareN aur din ko raat kareN

..is the poet in any way alluding to Omar Khayyam's quatrain below
?

xorshed kamand-i-subH bar baam afgand
Kai-Xusrau-i-roz muhrah-e dar jaam afgand
mai xor kih munaadii-i-saHargaah-xezaaN
aavaazah-i-"ishrabuu" dar ayyaam afgand

Literal translation (by Edward Heron-Allen)

The Sun cast the Noose of Morning over the roof
Kai Khosrau of the day, he throws a stone in the bowl
Drink wine! for the Herald of Dawn, rising up
Hurls into the day the cry of "Drink ye!"

Here is Fitzgerald..

Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night
Has flung the stone that puts the stars to flight
And lo! the Hunter of the East has caught
The Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light

Is the poet comparing his "mai-kadah" with Kai-Khusrau's grand palace
with its turrets? In the couplet he seems to be saying that even when
it is such time that the sun has come out, we would go on thinking
that it is still night and not open our eyes (to this reality).

I hope other friends come forward and say something sensible!

Naseer

[Zuhra]

Naseer saahab maiN Afzal saahab ki post ke jawaab meN kuchh likhna
chahti thi magar masroofiyat rahi. aaj bhi kuch jaldi meN hooN to bas
intaa kahooN gi k aapke source aur meri kitaab meN bas do ek jagah
farq hai.

1. jaisa k is thread meN pehle zikr ho chukaa hai, pehle she'r kaa
dusra misra yooN hona chaahiye:

jo dil kii baat hai dil meN woh dil kii baat kareN

2. aur doosre she'r ka doosra misra kitaab meN bilkul aise hai jaise
Afzal saahab ne us meN tarmeem kii hai:

kih tere lab mirii har baat ko nabaat kareN

Best,

Zuhra