Sher ke Maai-ne
premc...@gmail.com
A review of the movie "My name is Khan" in "Chowk" Magazine
http://www.chowk.com/articles/movie-review-my-name-is-khan-ras-siddiqui.htm
ended with the following Sher
Gala to ghont diya ehl-e-Madrassah ne tera,
phir KahaN se aayay sada La ilaha illallah?
First of all I want to understand the meaning in context of the
article. Then, "who is the shaayer"
and finally "the rest of the nazm/ghazal ? I know I am asking a
lot.
Lekin , aap say na poochh-ain to kis-se poochh-ain Thanks in
advance .
PJ
Naseer
On Mar 8, 11:07 am, "PremCJo...@gmail.com" <premcjo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dosto,
>
> A review of the movie "My name is Khan" in "Chowk" Magazine
>
> http://www.chowk.com/articles/movie-review-my-name-is-khan-ras-siddiq...
>
> ended with the following Sher
>
> Gala to ghont diya ehl-e-Madrassah ne tera,
> phir KahaN se aayay sada La ilaha illallah?
>
> First of all I want to understand the meaning in context of the
> article. Then, "who is the shaayer"
> and finally "the rest of the nazm/ghazal ? I know I am asking a
> lot.
>
> Lekin , aap say na poochh-ain to kis-se poochh-ain Thanks in
> advance .
>
> PJ
1) The writer of the article, by using this particular shi'r is trying
to connect extrmism and terrorism with the central message of the
couplet. However, as you may well be aware, people are fond of using
well known poets' lines to illustrate or propagate their own leaning
or philosophy. A classic example is Pakistan Steel Mills' use of
Allama Muhammad Iqbal's shi'r.
Khaam hai jab tak to hai maTTii kaa ik anbaar tuu
puKhtah ho jaa'e to hai shamshiir-i-be-zinhaar tuu
As long as you are raw/unrefined [immature] you are a mere heap of
earth
But when you become ripe/refined [mature] you will be a fearless sword
In the shi'r in question the poet is talking about the narrow
understanding and interpretation being provided by "ahl-i-madrasah",
i.e, those who are in charge of imparting knowledge. At least this is
my understanding.
2) Allama Muhammad Iqbal. By the way, the words are "shaa'ir" and
"ma'ne or ma'nii" and not shaayer and maai-ne.
3) I recently posted a link to an Iqbal online site. This poem is poem
no. 23 in Baal-i-Jibriil.
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.language.urdu.poetry/browse_frm/thread/70e17ebbc4454fb3#
lekin agar aap (bhii) pakii-pakaa'ii pasand karte haiN aur apne haath
paaNo hilaanaa nahiiN chaahte to bandah Haazir hai:-) I shall try to
provide a Roman transcription soon.
تري نگاہ فرومايہ ، ہاتھ ہے کوتاہ
تري نگاہ فرومايہ ، ہاتھ ہے کوتاہ
ترا گنہ کہ نخيل بلند کا ہے گناہ
گلا تو گھونٹ ديا اہل مدرسہ نے ترا
کہاں سے آئے صدا 'لا الہ الا اللہ'
خودي ميں گم ہے خدائي ، تلاش کر غافل!
يہي ہے تيرے ليے اب صلاح کار کي راہ
حديث دل کسي درويش بے گليم سے پوچھ
خدا کرے تجھے تيرے مقام سے آگاہ
برہنہ سر ہے تو عزم بلند پيدا کر
يہاں فقط سر شاہيں کے واسطے ہے کلاہ
نہ ہے ستارے کي گردش ، نہ بازي افلاک
خودي کي موت ہے تيرا زوال نعمت و جاہ
اٹھا ميں مدرسہ و خانقاہ سے غم ناک!
نہ زندگي ، نہ محبت ، نہ معرفت ، نہ نگاہ
Thy vision and thy hands are chained, earthbound,
Is it thy nature’s fault, or of the thought too high?
The schoolmen have strangled thy nascent soul,
And stifled the voice of passionate faith in thee.
Absorb thy self in selfhood; seek the path of God,
This is the only way for thee to find freedom.
Ask an unclad dervish what the heart doth say,
May God show thee thy place in the world of men.
If bare‐headed, have a towering will,
The crown is not for thee, but for the eagle alone.
When thou loosest selfhood, thou loosest power, too;
Blame not the stars and fate for thy fall.
Monasteries and schools left me sad and dejected,
No life and no love; no vision and no knowledge.
[Translated by Naim Siddiqui]
Naseer
v
I must apologise at the outset for being so demanding, but for the
life of me, I cannot read this script (Naskh is it?). Even the other
font is quite a battle, this font makes me give up.
kuchh to kariye ke log kehte hai.n
aaj naseer nastaaleeq saraa na huaa
:)
but I loved this iqbal sher on khaam and pukhtaa steel - another good
motivational couplet. I remember the word zinhaar came in one ghalib
ghazal sung by rafi. it went something like zinhaar agar ... which one
was that. did it also mean fearless there?
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab.
I don't have the "technology" to type Urdu on ALUP. What I have posted
was simply copy/paste from the Iqbal site. Sorry.*
"Fearless" for "zinhaar" may not be the best translation in the Iqbal
shi'r. In his and Ghalib's shi'r (zinhaar agar tumheN havas-i-naa'-o-
nosh hai*), the meaning is about the same. How about asking this
question, at the appropriate juncture, on the "is lafz ke ma'nii kyaa
haiN?" thread?
Naseer
* This is not quite true. All of us now have this technology. One can
type in a non-nasta'liiq script using Google software.
http://www.google.co.in/transliterate/Urdu
روی صاحب اس زمانے میں کیا ممکن نہیں؟
रवि साहिब इस ज़माने में क्या मुमकिन नहीं?
यह भी मत भूलिए गा किः
जहां में अहल-इ-ईमाँ सूरत-इ-खुर्शीद जीते हैं
इधर डूबे उधर निकले उधर डूबे इधर निकले!
** In Rafi rendering...
قد و گیسو میں قیس و کوہکن کی آزمایش ہے
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
On behalf of all ALUPers, I must thank you for providing this
detailed explanation. Even then, is it really exhaustive ?
I believe Shri Prem Joshi wanted to know the meaning and
relevance of this sher IN THE CONTEXT of the Review as appearing
in the Chowk article. Unfortunately, that link is not working
and I cannot access the said article. However, I have seen the
movie.
The word 'Madrasa' has been discussed in ALUP before, but not
always in an unbiased context. So, many of us (if not all) are
quite familiar with what the word connotes.
Many Urdu poets (including Iqbal) have referred to Mullas and
Maulvis (and these are the folks who teach in a Madrasa) in
unflattering terms. The idea these poets want to propagate is
that these Maulvis etc. usually remain confined to what we can
call the apparent meaning of words and terms that occur in
theological thought and scriptures, without really trying to get
into the true spirit of things. I am merely trying to explain a
particular viewpoint --- it is not my intention to pillory the
Mullas or justify what the poets have been saying.
Iqbal's sher (which has already been translated in your post)
should be understood and interpreted in this particular context.
What SRK has been shown as doing in the film is supposed to
conform to what I have called "the true spirit of things".
There are some characters in the movie who seem to believe only
in the apparent meaning of words as they occur in the texts that
are usually taught in Madrasas. The film's Director and SRK
himself have taken a particular slant in the film that should be
quite obvious to film-goers. It is quite possible that some of
the latter may consider these ideas and thoughts to have been
somewhat exaggerated in the movie.
The apparent meaning of Iqbal's sher seems to contain a paradox.
The Madrasas (and the Maulvis/Mullas teaching there) are supposed
to impart to the students basic knowledge about the fundamental
tenets and principles of Islam. And what is more fundamental
than the belief that "there is no deity except Allah" ? But
Iqbal seems to be implying that the teachings in these Madrasas
do not quite inculcate in the young minds this fundamental
article of faith --- in other words, their teachings amount to
"mistaking the wood for the trees".
Other poets too have written on the same theme. For instance,
Akbar Ilaah'abadi talks about "philosophers" :
Falsafi ko behs ke andar KHuda milta naheeN
Dor ko suljha raha hai aur sira milta naheeN
Iqbal himself has railed against Mullas/Maulvis (who may not
have a true insight into the specifics and spirit of the Faith)
on numerous occasions. Examples :
Ai MusalmaaN, apne dil se poochh, Mulla se na poochh
Ho gaya Allah ke baN'don se kyoN KHaali haram
Kya soofi-o-mulla ko KHabar mere junooN ki
Un ka sar-e-daaman bhi abhi chaak naheeN hai
Karegi Daawar-e-mehshar ko sharm'saar ik roz
Kitaab-e-soofi-o-mulla ki saada~auraaqi
As stated above, I could not access the Chowk article. But, I
believe, the writer/reviewer was dilating on the theme that
Islam is basically a religion of peace and amity; it promotes
closeness with other communities and that it does not sanction
senseless violence (particularly against innocent people).
The Holy Book expressly prohibits indulgence in such practices,
("....aur Allah ki zameen par fasaad barpa na karo"). And it is
in this particular context that Iqbal's sher is so appropriate.
I would also invite a reference to the last sher in the above
naz'm --- for the benefit of those who find Urdu NasKH font a bit
difficult, this last sher can be written in Roman as under :
U'Tha maiN madrasa~o~KHaan'qaah se GHam'naak
Na zindagi, na muhabbat, na m'arifat, na nigaah
Afzal
premc...@gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
AFzal bhai,
Bohut bohut shukria. I just checked and the link to the chowk article
is still working. Maybe there was a temporary breakdown only. You have
really enlightened me with Iqbal's shayari which I used to find quite
difficult to understand because of the many difficult words. Now Im
really looking forward to seeing the movie MNIK. Thank you once
again.
PJ
premc...@gmail.com
Naseer Bhai,
Many thanks for helping me out with the meaning of Iqbal's sher and
its context to the movie MNIK. I am also grateful for the link to
Iqbal's web site. Naskh font is difficult by itself. So I enlarged it
only to find that the words are in difficult Urdu too. Paseena aa
gaya. The sad part is that English translation is not very
satisfying. Sabr ke alaava koi chara nahi. Thanks again for your
help.
PJ
v
do they use naskh.
yehi hotaa hai to aaKhir yehii hotaa kyo.n hai?
Naseer
wrote:
Prem Joshi Sahib, aadaab.
We have a saying in Punjabi "goNgluu'aaN (ut)toN miTTii laahNRaa",
which basically means "taking the dirt off turnips", which in turn
means doing something very superficially. I am grateful to Afzal Sahib
for his detailed and learned input. My problem is that I do want to go
beyond removing the earth off the turnips and wash them, peal them and
then eat them raw...but, unfortunately there are so many turnips to
handle!:-)
When one learns to drive a motor car, accellerator and clutch control
seem to be the most difficult operation on earth. But once you are
able to drive, you can, within reason, drive any car. Similarly,
anyone who can read one type of script, there is no real difficulty in
reading others. It is just that one might prefer one more than the
other due to being accustomed to it. All my life, I have been reading
nasta'liiq, but I personally have a preference for nasKh.
I am curious how you enlarged the font. I might employ the same device
if I post anything in nasKh in the future.
I don't know if you noticed, but there are two translation sections.
The second one has a number of different people who have translated
passages from Iqbal's poetry. I think you will find this section
useful. Translation is translation after all.
Finally, something from my own experience. A long long time ago, I
ventured on the Herculean task of learning Arabic. I bought "Teach
Yourself Arabic" book written by a well known professor. I must have
got to page 10 ( or may be even less than 10) and then gave up! After
a few months I would have the urge again and leave it again. Over the
years and after having bought book after book and the same soul
destroying experience, I would just start and stop. Now, the "fault"
was n't in the Arabic (although it was an intellectual exercise for my
dumb mind), but rather it was in my wishing to understand the whys and
wherefores of every grammatical point under discussion. What I should
have done was to accept the learned authors' views and move onto the
next section. Any way, there came a day/time when everything just
clicked! And it will click for you and others too. The key is not to
give up but persevere. sabr kaa phal miiThaa hotaa hai. When I was
able to read a passage in an Arabic book and understand it, and laugh
whilst sitting alone, reading a humourous section, I knew the "eureka"
moment had arrived!
Naseer
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab.
It is a matter of preference, at the end of the day. This is what our
janaab-i-Jamil had to say in a recent RMIM group discussion.
"About naskh or nasta'aliiq: How many times have I wished that naskh
were the standard script for Urdu. In the 1960s, it was decided by the
authorities in Pakistan to introduce naskh in school textbooks so that
children grow up using naskh and eventually naskh becomes the standard
script. They did change the textbooks but in a half-hearted way. The
books were still written by hand by calligraphers and as time passed,
one saw the naskh character of the writing slowly giving way to
nasta'aliiq till the transformation back to nasta'aliiq was total.
This meant that we lost the chance to start using the typewriter as
was being done for Farsi and Arabic. One newspaper in Pakistan,
Nawaa-
e-waqt had started printing one page daily in naskh, but it too soon
gave up.
Computers and Urdu word processing technology have rescued the
situation greatly. Even if the communication using Urdu over the
Internet is not easy, at least now books and newspapers are invariably
utilizing word processing software for nasta'aliiq and are clear and
unambiguous to read.
Nasta'aliiq does have its charm, even if it is less practical than
naskh. It is so elegant! Even though Farsi books are in naskh and
handwriting of the people is in naskh, it is nasta'aliiq that is used
in calligraphy and art, simply because it is beautiful. Also it is
much more economical than naskh, which for newspapers becomes
critical. Urdu script in general and nasta'aliiq in particular is a
sort of semi-shorthand".
Reading this piece has given me an idea! Why not use this Google
facility when you have a few spare moments. Just try typing shi'rs
which you love; a sh'ir at a time perhaps. Type them with the larger/
est font Soon you will begin to experience "word recognition". And
this will be a eureka moment for all those wishing to learn the Urdu
script.
http://www.google.co.in/transliterate/Urdu
Naseer
v
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naseer Saahib
Keep the control button pressed and press the '+' sign continuously
and stop when the font size is large enough. to get back to smaller
size do the ctrl and '-' button. with a scroll mouse - you can do
control plus scroll up or down.
It is a eureka moment when I feel that I can be of some use to you.
otherwise it is always one way traffic. :)
premc...@gmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Naseer Bhai,
Since you were able to copy and paste Naskh it means that Microsoft
Word can handle it.
So copy any Naskh passage and paste it in a Microsoft Word file. Then
you can enlarge it by Microsoft word command by 150% 200% etc. This
command is in one of the Word menu on top.
Check it out.
PJ
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab,
At what stage do I use this control+/- facility? After it has been
pasted onto an ALUP page or do I need to "prepare" it (like a roTii)
before slapping it onto the ALUP oven? Whichever method is the correct
one, will it remain enlarged when it has been posted and transmitted?
Naseer
Naseer
Prem Joshi Sahib aadaab.
I have tried cut/paste from Google's Urdu programme onto word. It does
work but it splits the words into its constituent letters. Prem, for
example ends up as letters pe, re , ye, miim! How do I re-combine
them?
Naseer
UVR
> On Mar 8, 3:01 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > janaab-i-Prem Joshi Sahib, aadaab.
>
> > On Mar 8, 11:07 am, "PremCJo...@gmail.com" <premcjo...@gmail.com>
> > no. 23 in Baal-i-Jibriil.
>
>
> > lekin agar aap (bhii) pakii-pakaa'ii pasand karte haiN aur apne haath
> > paaNo hilaanaa nahiiN chaahte to bandah Haazir hai:-) I shall try to
> > provide a Roman transcription soon.
>
> > تري نگاہ فرومايہ ، ہاتھ ہے کوتاہ
>
> > تري نگاہ فرومايہ ، ہاتھ ہے کوتاہ
> > ترا گنہ کہ نخيل بلند کا ہے گناہ
>
> > گلا تو گھونٹ ديا اہل مدرسہ نے ترا
> > کہاں سے آئے صدا 'لا الہ الا اللہ'
>
> > خودي ميں گم ہے خدائي ، تلاش کر غافل!
> > يہي ہے تيرے ليے اب صلاح کار کي راہ
>
> > حديث دل کسي درويش بے گليم سے پوچھ
> > خدا کرے تجھے تيرے مقام سے آگاہ
>
> > برہنہ سر ہے تو عزم بلند پيدا کر
> > يہاں فقط سر شاہيں کے واسطے ہے کلاہ
>
> > نہ ہے ستارے کي گردش ، نہ بازي افلاک
> > خودي کي موت ہے تيرا زوال نعمت و جاہ
>
> > اٹھا ميں مدرسہ و خانقاہ سے غم ناک!
> > نہ زندگي ، نہ محبت ، نہ معرفت ، نہ نگاہ
>
> tiraa gunah kih taKhayyul-i-buland kaa hai gunaah
>
> galaa to ghoNT diyaa ahl-i-madrasah ne tiraa
> kahaaN se aa'e sadaa "Laa ilaaha illa_llaah"
>
> Khudii meN gum hai Khudaa'ii, talaash kar Ghaafil
> yahii hai tere liye ab salaaH-kaar kii raah
>
> Hadiis-i-dil kisii darvesh-i-be-giliim se puuchh
> Khudaa kare tujhe tere maqaam se aagaah
>
> barahnah sar hai to 'azm-i-buland paidaa kar
> yahaaN faqat sar-i-shaahiiN ke vaaste hai kulaah
>
> nah hai sitaare kii gardish nah baazii-i-aflaak
> Khudii kii maut hai teraa zavaal-i-ni'mat-o-jaah
>
> uThaa maiN madrasah-o-Khaanqaah se Ghamnaak
> nah zindagii, nah muHabbat nah ma'rifat nah nigaah
>
>
>
> > Thy vision and thy hands are chained, earthbound,
> > Is it thy nature’s fault, or of the thought too high?
>
> > The schoolmen have strangled thy nascent soul,
> > And stifled the voice of passionate faith in thee.
>
> > Absorb thy self in selfhood; seek the path of God,
> > This is the only way for thee to find freedom.
>
> > Ask an unclad dervish what the heart doth say,
> > May God show thee thy place in the world of men.
>
> > If bare‐headed, have a towering will,
> > The crown is not for thee, but for the eagle alone.
>
> > When thou loosest selfhood, thou loosest power, too;
> > Blame not the stars and fate for thy fall.
>
> > Monasteries and schools left me sad and dejected,
> > No life and no love; no vision and no knowledge.
>
> > [Translated by Naim Siddiqui]
>
> Naseer
Naseer saahib, aadaab.
If you don't mind my saying so, I think the 'comma' might be a bit
misplaced in the "Khudee/Khudaa'ii" couplet above; perhaps it should
be this --
Khudee meN gum hai, Khudaa'ii talaash kar, Ghaafil
yahi hai tere liye ab salaah.kaar ki raah
I noticed another curious thing. Metrically, it seems that in the
matl'a, the phrase you've transcribed as "taKhayyul-e-buland" should
actually be "taKhayyul buland" (there is no enough space to allow for
the izaafat to be inserted). I'm not sure whether Iqbal meant
something other than "taKhayyul-e-buland", though -- I rather think he
did away with the izaafat in a manner similar to this other famous
sh'er of his:
yaqeeN mohkam, amal paiham, mohabbat faatih-e-'aalam
jihaad-e-zindagaani meN yeh haiN mardoN ki shamsheereN
I have read somewhere that the Allama's critics used to like to haul
him over the hot coals for these kinds of grammatical "experiments."
Not that he cared, of course.
-UVR.
tanhaa
> facility when you have a few spare moments. Just try typing shi'rs
> which you love; a sh'ir at a time perhaps. Type them with the larger/
> est font Soon you will begin to experience "word recognition". And
> this will be a eureka moment for all those wishing to learn the Urdu
> script.
>
> http://www.google.co.in/transliterate/Urdu
>
> Naseer
How do you ensure that the google transliterator spells the words
properly? Writing tota (Parrot) in Roman doesn't transliterate to
"tota" with a "toe" in Urdu, rather just uses the "te" letter. I
tried some other words starting with "toe" and it was mixed success.
Although, it transliterated "zaalim" vs. "zindagi" properly. So is
there a transliteration scheme that lets you ensure that "toe" is
properly transliterated? I did a cursory google search for it with no
success. Considering you have been using this tool, perhaps you can
shed (or anybody else here for that matter) some light on this issue
of getting proper spellings out of this tool when transliterating.
Unicode is great, but even now, I use iTrans for Hindi
transliteration, I just love the font and the control that iTrans
offers. I think there was some Urdu software I used to use, (Urdu
2000, I think it was called) a few years ago to type in Urdu as I'm
not a big fan of Naskh and find it very hard to read compared to
Nastaliq. So any other transliteration tools that do a better job at
representing letters?
Thanks in advance for the reply.
Amit Malhotra
tanhaa
sorry for adding on to my own post, in fact, if you write "totaa" it
uses "Te" rather than "te"
tanhaa
lol, adding again to my post!! I noticed that by clicking on the
erroneously spelled word, I can change it to the correct letter from
supplied suggestions. Requires knowledge of knowing how to spell each
word properly when it comes to words that have similar sounds, that
won't be happening in my case! lol
Naseer
muHtaram UVR Sahib, aadaab.
Although I copy/pasted this poem from the online site, in my
"Kulliyaat-i-Iqbal", the shi'r is as I have quoted above.
tirii nigaah-i-firo-maayah, haath hai kotaah
tiraa gunah kih taKhayyul-*i*-buland kaa hai gunaah
If it is, as you suggest..
tiraa gunah kih taKhayyul buland kaa hai gunaah
...then to my mind at least, it does not seem right. Of course, it
does makes more sense if the adjective was before the noun.
tiraa gunah kih buland taKayyul kaa hai gunaah
The other couplet that you have quoted from "tuluu'-i-islaam", there
is no following kaa/ke/kii
yaqiiN muHkam, 'amal pai-ham, muHabbat faatiH-i-'aalam
jihaad-i-zindagaanii meN *haiN yih* mardoN kii shamshiireN
If we had izaafat after yaqiiN, 'amal and muHabbat, this would "tie"
the pairs of words into bound units such as "firm faith", "continuous
action" and "world-conquering love". Without the izaafat, one can
think of nouns and the (explanatory or descriptive) adjectives as
seperate entities.
yaqiiN? (i.e. what kind of yaqiiN?) Reply, "firm", etc
So, we would read the line as:
yaqiiN: muHkam, 'amal: paiham, muHabbat: faatiH-i-'aalam
I am not sure if we can say the same for taKhayyul.
.......taKhayyul: buland kaa hai gunaah.
I must stop rambling NOW!;-)
Naseer
Vijay
UVR and Naseer sahebaan:
I think the word in question is 'naKhiil-e-bullaNd'.
Best,
Vijay
Afzal A. Khan
Vijay Saheb,
I would say : good catch.
The word refers to the date-palm, which is a rather tall
tree.
Afzal
UVR
For "tota"-type problem, go to that URL (which Naseer saahib provided)
and after Google renders the word incorrectly, hit the "delete"
character. This should bring up a drop-down list with other
transliterations that Google thinks might fit the bill. If you find
the correct one, choose it. End of story.
If you don't find the right one, delete the whole thing and go to the
Greek 'omega' symbol on that page. This will bring up a "keyboard" on
which you can select the exact letters you want. The End.
-UVR.
UVR
Excellent! I would echo Afzal saahib's sentiments.
But in that case, the translation "[fault of the] thought too high" is
completely, absolutely and totally wrong!
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
UVR Saheb,
Maybe the "fault" is that of the original translator, who
has seemingly taken the word to be "taKHaiyyul" (thought).
But I am sure there is no need to think about another
(and more appropriate) translation, as the sher's
true import (which is a sort of admonition from the
poet) is rather obvious.
Afzal
v
The Ctrl + technique works for anyone who is viewing it on his
browser. as a message creator you do not have to increase the size.
roTii khaane waalaa Khud kheench taan ke roTii kaa aakaar baRhaa
legaa :)
aap sirf uRelte rahe.n ham ok baRhaa kar pee lenge
Naseer
janaab-i-Vijay Sahib, aadaab.
It seems the tranlator has blinded a number of us! The nasKh version I
posted here (I've checked it with "Welcome to Allama Iqbal Site" link)
actually says "naKhiil". To make matters worse, when UVR Sahib
suggested that the line might be without an izaafat, I was too busy
concentrating on looking for the izaafat in my book, which I did find,
but missed the fact that the word there was also naKhiil! To quote
Afzal Sahib from his recent post, I also mistook the "wood for the
trees"!:(
Iqbal would have every right to say:-
ik nuqte ne maHram se mujrim banaa diyaa
ham Khudaa likhte rahe vuh judaa paRhte rahe!
Or:
ham naKhiil likhte rahe vuh taKhayyul paRhte rahe!
Naseer
Naseer
On Mar 11, 3:32 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For "tota"-type problem, go to that URL (which Naseer saahib provided)
> and after Google renders the word incorrectly, hit the "delete"
> character. This should bring up a drop-down list with other
> transliterations that Google thinks might fit the bill. If you find
> the correct one, choose it. End of story.
Do you mean the "Delete" button on the keyboard? If yes, then I've
tried this and it does not bring up the drop down menue.
> If you don't find the right one, delete the whole thing and go to the
> Greek 'omega' symbol on that page. This will bring up a "keyboard" on
> which you can select the exact letters you want. The End.
>
The "omega" symbol does not bring up zabar or zer. I have still to
achieve an izaafat and the zabar at the end of Raviindra! It seems
like a "Never Ending Story" to me!:-)
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
> Or:
>
> ham naKhiil likhte rahe vuh taKhayyul paRhte rahe!
>
> Naseer
I thought it was the other way round !!
Afzal
Vijay
It WAS the other way round. And, it was in meter:
ham Khuda (duaa) likhte rahe aur voh juda (dagha) paRhte rahe
aik nuqte neN hameN mehram se mujrim *kar* diia!!
Vijay
UVR
I thought it used pronouns sans regal/respectful pluralization. As
in:
maiN du'aa likhtaa rahaa aur woh daGhaa ...
I also don't think "Khuda/juda" works properly here (for why, see the
second misr'a)
-UVR.
Vijay
You are absolutely right: it is indeed in the singular pronoun. And
this is the first time I heard/saw it with Khuda/judaa combo.
Interestingly, I had posted this sher before,addressing it to none
other than Naseer sahib himself:
Vijay
Naseer
> http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.language.urdu.poetry/browse_frm...
>
> Vijay
Firstly, I think Afzal Sahib might have meant something quite
different when he said, "I thought it was the other way round!!"
Secondly, I did remember you quoting this kind of shi'r but I decided
to rely on my (albeit faulty) memory. I had heard this shir in one of
my Panjabi audio cassettes called "Nizaam Diin diyaaN gallaaN". Within
these cassettes, he (the Late Nizaam Diin), recites Urdu ash'aar too.
I have gone through the three cassettes today and he recites this
shi'r as:
ham du'aa likhte rahe aur vuh daGhaa paRhte rahe
are ek lafz ne hameN maHram se mujrim kar diyaa!!
By the way, if the first line should have "maiN" then the second line
ought to have "mujhe" and not hameN. The link you have provided to
your original post gives the "maiN/mujhe" version.
Where did "Khudaa/judaa" come from? THAT is the question!;-)
Naseer
Vijay
Thanks for your indulgence Naseer Sahib. If that is the exact version
in the cassette you consulted, then the second misra, again, is not in
meter, nor does it make sense to replace 'nuqta' with 'lafz', as that
renders it meaningless, more or less. I believe the whole she'r uses
singular pronouns, i.e. maiN/ mujhe.
I, too, will be very interested to know where Khuda/judaa came from. I
have a feeling I know where it came from, but wouldn't mind you
confirming:-)
Best,
Vijay
Naseer
Vijay Sahib, aadaab.
maiN ne ek baar phir Ghalat ko Ghalat likh diyaa! The shi'r, as
recited by Nizaam Diin, word for word is:
ham du'aa likhte rahe aur vuh daGhaa paRhte rahe
are ek nuqte ne hameN maHram se mujrim kar diyaa
(I don't know whether you have noticed this or not. Prior to pressing
the "send" button, everything appears OK! But, when it appears on
screen later, it is not what you think you had sent!;-)
Naseer
Asad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naseer Sahib Adab
she'r yaqiinan aapne aise hii sunaa hogaa jaisaa ke aap farmaate haiN.
ghaltii aapke sunne meiN nahiiN bal.k she'r meiN hai.
duusre misre meiN 'are' kii z'roorat nahiiN. baaqi Vijay Sahib
nishaadahii kar hii chuke haiN.
Asad (alif siin 'ain daal)
PS- aap ke apostrophe-e-'ain ke chakkar meiN mera naam, formula ban
gayaa thaa. ghaliban aap ne 'Mulahiza' kii post mulaahiza kii ho (post
maiN ne ab Delete kar dii hai, k aap na jaane kyaa samjheN ;) ). laakh
koshishoN k baavjuud kisii suurat Thiik na huaa. chunaan.ch mujhe
duusrii ID create karnii paRii. mumkin hai kuch aur vajah ho, lekin
behtar yehii hai k siidha siidha Asad hi likha karuuNga. aap bilaa
ta'mmul 'alif siin 'ain daal paRh sakte haiN.
Vijay
>
> read more »
Asad sahib: greetings!
I also noted that 'are' was superfluous to the meter, but I thought
this was just an exclamation used by the reciter of the she'r, rather
than part of the misra.
Best,
Vijay
Naseer
muHtaram As'ad ( :-) ) Sahib, aadaab.
yih bhii maiN ne aap ko Khvaah-maKhvaah kaise janjaal meN Daal diyaa
hai! ma'zirat kaa Khvaast-gaar huuN. jii haaN, aap kii posT dekhii
thii. maiN samajh baiThaa thaa kih aap nah sirf naaraaz ho ga'e haiN
balkih Ghusse meN bhii haiN. is liye maiN ne sochaa kih bihtar hai kih
darjah-i-Haraarat kam ho jaa'e to phir baat kareN ge. achchhaa hu'aa
kih yih merii Ghalatii niklii aur aap usii tarH pur-sukuun haiN jitne
pahle the!
lekin bhaa'ii saaHib, hamaare haaN ek aur Asad Sahib haiN. aap donoN
meN ham farq kaise kar sakeN ge? mujhe nahiiN ma'luum thaa kih e-mail
kaa nizaam apostrophe ko qubuul nahiiN kartaa. (vaise agar aap Asa'd
likh sakte haiN to nah jaane As'ad kyoN nahiiN likh sakte). agar
sochaa jaa'e to capital E bhii to 'ain hii kii shakl rakhtaa hai. kyaa
aap sirf (ALUP ke liye) apnaa naam AsEad nahiiN likh sakte? vaise
itnii bhii majbuurii kii baat nahiiN.
Naseer
Asad
>
> I also noted that 'are' was superfluous to the meter, but I thought
> this was just an exclamation used by the reciter of the she'r, rather
> than part of the misra.
>
> Best,
>
> Vijay
Thanks Vijay Sahib
I too thought of that, but as you know our Naseer Sahib is kind of
meticulous about things so....:)
Asad
>
> yih bhii maiN ne aap ko Khvaah-maKhvaah kaise janjaal meN Daal diyaa
> hai! ma'zirat kaa Khvaast-gaar huuN. jii haaN, aap kii posT dekhii
> thii. maiN samajh baiThaa thaa kih aap nah sirf naaraaz ho ga'e haiN
> balkih Ghusse meN bhii haiN. is liye maiN ne sochaa kih bihtar hai kih
> darjah-i-Haraarat kam ho jaa'e to phir baat kareN ge. achchhaa hu'aa
> kih yih merii Ghalatii niklii aur aap usii tarH pur-sukuun haiN jitne
> pahle the!
>
> lekin bhaa'ii saaHib, hamaare haaN ek aur Asad Sahib haiN. aap donoN
> meN ham farq kaise kar sakeN ge? mujhe nahiiN ma'luum thaa kih e-mail
> kaa nizaam apostrophe ko qubuul nahiiN kartaa. (vaise agar aap Asa'd
> likh sakte haiN to nah jaane As'ad kyoN nahiiN likh sakte). agar
> sochaa jaa'e to capital E bhii to 'ain hii kii shakl rakhtaa hai. kyaa
> aap sirf (ALUP ke liye) apnaa naam AsEad nahiiN likh sakte? vaise
> itnii bhii majbuurii kii baat nahiiN.
>
> Naseer
bas ki dushvaar hai har *naam* ka aasaaN honaa.....:)
Janab-e-man, filhaal to maiN kisii qism kaa risk lene ko tayyar nahiiN
huuN is liye baaraa-e-karam isii naam ko rehne diijiye, aaindah phir
dekhaa jaayegaa. vaise bhii maiN duusre Asad Sahib kii ziyaadah tar
posts se muttafiq hii rehtaa huuN, to aap kisii ko bhi samajh ke
bhugtaa diijiyega gaa. isii bahaane ye gunahgaar bhii aapkii daad-o-
dua'a meiN shariik ho jaaega karegaa :)
Afzal A. Khan
>>>>>>>>>>> تري نگاہ فرومايہ ، ہاتھ ہے کوتاہ
>>>>>>>>>>> ترا گنہ کہ نخيل بلند کا ہے گناہ
>
>>>>>>>>>> tirii nigaah firo-maayah, haath hai kotaah
>>>>>>>>>> tiraa gunah kih taKhayyul-i-buland kaa hai gunaah
>>>>>>>>>>> Thy vision and thy hands are chained, earthbound,
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it thy nature’s fault, or of the thought too high?
>>>>>>>>>>> [Translated by Naim Siddiqui]
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Naseer
>>>>>>>> muHtaram UVR Sahib, aadaab.
>>
>>>>>>>> Although I copy/pasted this poem from the online site, in my
>>>>>>>> "Kulliyaat-i-Iqbal", the shi'r is as I have quoted above.
>>
>>>>>>>> tirii nigaah-i-firo-maayah, haath hai kotaah
>>>>>>>> tiraa gunah kih taKhayyul-*i*-buland kaa hai gunaah
>>
>>>>>>>> tiraa gunah kih buland taKayyul kaa hai gunaah
>>
>>>>>>>> I am not sure if we can say the same for taKhayyul.
>>
>>>>>>>> .......taKhayyul: buland kaa hai gunaah.
>>
>>>>>>>> I must stop rambling NOW!;-)
>>
>>>>>>>> Naseer
>>
>>>>>>> UVR and Naseer sahebaan:
>>
>>>>>>> I think the word in question is 'naKhiil-e-bullaNd'.
>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>
>>>>>>> Vijay
>>>>>> Or:
>>
>>>>>> ham naKhiil likhte rahe vuh taKhayyul paRhte rahe!
>>
>>>>>> Naseer
>>
>>>>> I thought it was the other way round !!
>>
>>>>> Afzal
>
> Firstly, I think Afzal Sahib might have meant something quite
> different when he said, "I thought it was the other way round!!"
> Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
Aap ne saheeh farmaaya. Mera matlab kuchh aur tha, aur
meri haqeer raaye men bilkul waazeh tha.
Unfortunately, it seems that my "sense of humour" is now
so dated that nobody caught onto it. The fault must be
entirely mine.
I have now deleted irrelevant portions from the thread
and retained only those lines that may help in making
my meaning clear.
It would be seen that you (i.e. Naseer Saheb) were the
first to use the word "taKHaiyyul" in quoting the sher
and in further discussions.
And then you blithely state (and I quote) :
"ham naKHiil likhte rahe, woh taKHaiyyul paRhte rahe"
Please now read my comment in this context.
Afzal
Naseer
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
This is exactly how I understood your comment AND your sense of humour
was fully registered!
I did n't offer a reply because I wrote " "ham naKHiil likhte rahe,
woh taKHaiyyul paRhte rahe" as if Iqbal himself was saying it. But,
without a doubt, it was I who began writing "taKhayyul" even when a
50' tall naKhiil was staring me in the eyes!
Naseer
Vijay
Afzal Sahib: adaab. At the risk of unnecessarily prolonging this
thread, particularly as a more scholarly and interesting discussion is
taking place on the jogi thread, I thought I will offer my 'mea
culpa'. I saw your post and without clicking on the 'show quoted
text', went on to respond, assuming you meant the she'r should be
other way round. As that was something on my mind already, I made the
assumption you also meant the same thing.{You know about assumptions
(ass u me etc.:-))}.
Having said all this, I must say that I seem to have become humour
challenged as I didn't see any in your retort; more a pointed
correction, as you saw it:-)
Best regards,
Vijay