gesuu-i-Urdu
Naseer
go jo kuchh maiN yahaaN kahne vaalaa huuN, yih "Topic of the Month
10/08" meN bhii kahaa jaa saktaa thaa. sochaa kih yahaaN (inglistaan)
ke mausam kii tarH vuh laRii ThiThar sii gaii hai, is liye ek na'ii
laRii kii ibtidaa karnii chaahiye.
Urdu ke baare meN shaa'iroN ne faKHriyah andaaz meN baateN kii haiN,
us kii Haalat-i-zaar par gile shikve kiye haiN lekin kam hii kisii ne
us kii KHaamii yaa kam-zorii kaa khule 'aam zikr kiyaa hai. is se
pahle kih maiN apne asl mauzuu' kii jaanib aa'uuN, maiN chaahuuN gaa
kih is laRii meN, jahaaN tak mumkin ho, un ash'aar ko ek jagah
ikaTThaa kar liyaa jaa'e jin kaa mauzuu' Urdu hai.
Urdu kii sitaa'ish meN
1) yih reKHtah Vali kaa jaa kar use sunaa de
rakhtaa hai fikr-e-raushan jo Anvari kii maaniNd
2) Urdu hai jis kaa naam hamiiN jaante haiN DaaGh
saare jahaan meN dhuum hamaarii zabaan kii hai
3) nahiiN khel ai DaaGh yaaroN se kah do
kih aatii hai Urdu zabaaN aate aate
4) reKHte meN ham se guftuguu nah kar
yih hamaarii zabaaN hai pyaare
5) ko'ii yih kahe kih reKHtah kyoNkih ho rashk-i-Faarsii]
guftah-i-Ghalib ek baar paRh ke use sunaa kih yuuN
6) kyaa samajh sakte haiN ghaamaR Hindi awr Urdu kaa farq
bhaNg ke kullhaR kahaaN sahbaa ke paimaane kahaaN
7) Haal-i-dil kii zabaan hai Urdu
mere dil pih to raaj hai is kaa
go zabaan hai yih ahl-i-iimaaN kii
kafiraanah mizaaj hai is kaa
8) aur baat chhoRiye, lafz kii nazaakat dekhiye
tiin bal khaatii hai qalam, kamar likhne ke liye
9) naddii kaa moR, chashmah-i-shiiriiN kaa ziir-o-bam
chaadar shab-i-nujoom kii, shabnam kaa raKHt-i-nam
motii kii aab, gul kii mahak, maah-i-nau kaa KHam
in sab ke imtizaaj se paidaa hu'ii hai tuu
kitne HasiiN ufaq se huvaidaa hu'ii hai tuu
lahjah maleeH hai, kih namak-KHvaar huuN tiraa
siHatt zabaan meN hai, kih) biimaar huuN tiraa
aazaad-i-shi'r huuN kih giriftaar huuN tiraa
tere karam se, shi'r-o-suKHan kaa imaam huuN
shaahoN pih KHanda-zan hooN kih teraa Ghulaam huuN
10) apne maHbuub kii KHaatir thaa KHudaa ko manzuur
varnah Qur'aan bhii utartaa ba-zabaan-i-Urdu
11) shahd-o-shakkar se shiiriiN Urdu zabaaN hamaarii
hotii hai jis ke bole, miiThii zabaaN hamaarii
12) vuh 'itr-daan saa lahjah mire buzurgoN kaa
raxhii-basii hu'ii Urdu zabaaN kii KHush-buu
shikvah-o-shikaayat
A)
ikkiis baras guzre aazaadii-i-kaamil ko
tab jaa ke kahiiN ham ko Ghalib kaa KHayaal aayaa
turbat hai kahaaN us kii,maskan thaa kahaaN us kaa
ab apne suKhan-parvar zihnoN meN KHayaal aayaa
sau saal se jo turbat chaadar ko tarastii thii
ab us pih 'aqiidat ke phooloN kii numaa'ish hai
Urdu ke ta'alluq se kuchh bhed nahiiN khultaa
yih jashn,yih hangaamaah ,KHidmat hai kih saazish hai
jin shahroN meN guuNjii thii Ghalib kii navaa barsoN
un shahroN meN ab Urdu be-naam-o-nishaaN Thahrii
aazaadii-i-kaamil kaa i'laan hu'aa jis din
ma'tuub zabaaN Thahrii Ghaddaar zabaaN Thahrii
jis 'ahd-i-siyaasat ne yih zindah zabaaN kuchlii
us 'ahd-i-siyaasat ko marHuum kaa Gham kyoN
Ghalib jise kahte haiN Urdu hii kaa shaa'ir thaa
Urdu pih sitam Dhaa kar Ghalib pih karam kyoN
yih jashn yih hangaame dil-chasp khilone haiN
kuchh logoN kii koshish hai kuchh log bahal jaa'eN
jo va'dah-i-fardaa par ab Tal nahiiN sakte haiN
mumkin hai kih kuchh 'arsah is jashn pih Tal jaa'eN
yih jashn mubaarak ho, par yih bhii sadaaqat hai
ham log Haqiiqat ke iHsaas se 'aarii haiN
GaaNdhii ho kih Ghalib ho, insaaf kii nazroN meN
ham donoN ke qaatil haiN donoN ke pujaarii haiN.
B)
yahaaN sab haiN mere chaahne vaale, meraa koii nahiiN
main Hindustaan meN Urdu kii taraH jiyaa kartaa huuN
C)
Urdu kaun hai Urdu ek be-sahaaraa laRkii hai
mazah sab lete haiN pyaar kaun kartaa hai
D)
zulm Urdu pih bhii hotaa hai awr is nisbat se
log Urdu ko musalmaan samajh lete haiN
E)
zabaan hamaarii nah samjhaa yahaaN ko'ii MajruuH
ham ajnabii kii taraH apne hii vatan meN rahe
F)
apnii har saaNs pih iHsaan liye ham-dardoN kaa
zindagii kartaa huuN is 'ahd meN Urdu kii tarH
G)
saarii dunyaa ne Ghairiyyat bartii
jaise Urdu zabaan bhii the ham bhii
in ash'aar meN chand mutanaaza' gardaane jaa sakte haiN.
to aslii mauzuu' kii taraf ruKH karte hu'e maiN yih 'arz karnaa
chaahtaa huuN kih 'Allaamah MuHammad Iqbaal ne jab yih shi'r kahaa
thaa to un ko Urdu kii kyaa kyaa KHaamiyaaN nazar aa'iiN?
gesuu-i-Urdu abhii minnat-paziir-i-shaanah hai
shama' saudaa'ii-i-dil-sozii-i-parvaanah hai
is ke 'ilaavah aap logoN ko Urdu zabaan meN kyaa naqaa'is nazar aate
haiN jin kii vajh se yih diigar aham baina_laqvaamii zabaanoN se
piichhe hai?
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
nages...@yahoo.com
Naseer Sahib:
The following ghazal was posted to ALUP by Ali Minai, whose absence
from this group stretches out in front of us like a dreary New England
(or is it Cincinatti) winter. Because the ghazal was written by an
Urdu poet, I assume that you would consider it Urdu poetry :-) It is
undoubtedly about Urdu.
`Pure' GHazal `in' urDU by dilAvar figAr
`The nation talks in' urDU, `the people fight in' urDU,
`Dear readers, that is why I write in' urDU.
na hO jab `heart in the chest' phir `tongue in the mouth' kyUN? **
`To beautify this line, throw some light in' urDU.
`There will be greater attraction in the style'
kahEN barrAq kE badlE jo `snow white in' urDU.
`Poetry' kI naSHistEN `cultural show' hI sahI lEkin
`Please', aE sAhibAn-E dil, mujhE `invite in' urDU.
`There should be' yaqInan, `no' milAvaT `in the literature',
`Therefore I never call' SHab kO `night in' urDU.
merI nazmON ka ik `volume' haE `published' urDU mEN,
`Therefore I would like a copyright in' urDU.
figAr `in this' GHazal tErI zabAN urDU ho yA `English',
magar `you have tied' qAfiyE kyA `tight in' urDU.
Notes:
1. `urDU' is writen throughout the poem with a hard `D', giving it
an English pronunciation.
2. The English words need to be read in a purely desi style
(istAil:-)
to keep the poem in meter.
3. ** This line is a ``restatement'' of Ghalib's `na hO jab dil hi
sInE
mEN to phir munh meN zubAN kyUN hO?'
All in all, this poem is mostly gimmickry, and not among Figar's
better
poems. I'll post a good one in the near future.
Ali Minai
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
kal `cinema' meN nazar Aye jo ik maOlAnA,
maEN ne pUCHhA ke`` hae kyA Ap ko bhI zaOq-e majAz?''
bOle, ``hAN, sAth hi kuCHh iSHq-e haqIqI bhI haE;
maEN `cinema' hi meN pah lEtA huN maGHrib ki namAz''. Figar
UVR
> yih hamaarii zabaaN hai pyaare
>
> 5) ko'ii yih kahe kih reKHtah kyoNkih ho rashk-i-Faarsii]
> guftah-i-Ghalib ek baar paRh ke use sunaa kih yuuN
>
> chaahtaa huuN kih 'Allaamah MuHammad Iqbaal ne jab yih shi'r kahaa
> thaa to un ko Urdu kii kyaa kyaa KHaamiyaaN nazar aa'iiN?
>
> gesuu-i-Urdu abhii minnat-paziir-i-shaanah hai
> shama' saudaa'ii-i-dil-sozii-i-parvaanah hai
>
> is ke 'ilaavah aap logoN ko Urdu zabaan meN kyaa naqaa'is nazar aate
> haiN jin kii vajh se yih diigar aham baina_laqvaamii zabaanoN se
> piichhe hai?
>
> KHair-KHvaah,
> Naseer
Naseer saahib, aadaab.
aap ki post meN ke "aslii" mauzoo par maiN kuchh kahnaa zaroor
chaahtaa hooN, magar waqt ki tangii ke baa'is filhaal sirf Meer aur
Ghaalib ke un do ash'aar ki tasHeeH hi kar paa rahaa hooN jo aap ne
apni post meN #4 aur #5 par par raqam kiye haiN --
[Meer]
guftugoo reKhte meN ham se na kar!
yeh hamaari zabaan hai, pyaare
[Ghalib]
jo yeh kahe k reKhta, kyoN-keh ho rashk-e-faarsi
gufta-e-Ghaalib ek baar paRh ke use sunaa, ki "yooN!"
-UVR.
UVR
Nagesh saahib,
The poem Dr. Minai posted is undoubtedly an Urdu Ghazal! And it's an
Urdu Ghazal not because Dilawar Figar is an Urdu poet of repute or
because the poem is on the topic of Urdu. There's an even more
compelling and convincing reason to call this Urdu poetry, which is
this: save single syllable words like 'to, in, you, show' et cetera,
almost ALL the other "English-looking" words in this Ghazal have been
employed as if they were, in fact, Urdu words! Including the word
"English" itself! LOL
That is to say, if one uses the [Oxford, Cambridge or Webster]
dictionary-mandated pronunciation of these words, this poem will be
entirely out of metric alignment and unfit to be called a "Ghazal",
but no sooner than one imparts the familiar fragrance of Urdu to them,
the lines magically transmogrify into perfect behr!
This is the same thing Minai saahib has mentioned in footnote #2 of
his post. To wit: (words retaining the English pronunciation are
written *LIKE THIS*)
deyar shuD bee yaqeenan *NO* milaavaT *IN* da liTrEchar
deyarfor aa'i naivar kaal shab ko naa'iT *IN* Urdu
miree nazmoN ka ik vaalyoom hai pablishD Urdu meN
deyarfor aa'i vuD laa'ik *A* kaapeeraa'iT *IN* Urdu
figaar *IN* dis Ghazal teri zabaaN Urdu ho yaa inglish
magar *YOU* haev taa'iD qaafiye kyaa taa'iT *IN* Urdu
(`There should be' yaqInan, `no' milAvaT `in the literature',
`Therefore I never call' SHab kO `night in' urDU.)
(merI nazmON ka ik `volume' haE `published' urDU mEN,
`Therefore I would like a copyright in' urDU.)
(figAr `in this' GHazal tErI zabAN urDU ho yA `English',
magar `you have tied' qAfiyE kyA `tight in' urDU.)
Note that this is the selfsame meter Ghalib used for "na ho jab dil hi
seene meN to phir muNh meN zabaaN kyooN ho." I think it's a testament
to Figar's cleverness that he slips this reference quietly in, into a
sh'er that he could otherwise have left out of the Ghazal without
losing an iota of effect!
-UVR.
UVR
And just to round it off, here's a tasHeeH of the sh'er by the third
luminous light of Urdu poetry, Dr. Iqbal:
gesu-e-Urdu abhi minnat pazeer-e-shaana hai
sham'a *yeh* saudaa'i-e-dil_sozi-e-parwaana hai
Crawling back into my hole, I remain
Sincerely yours,
-UVR.
:)
Naseer
janaab-i-muHtaram UVR Sahib, aadaab.
ash'aar kii tasHiiH ke liye bandah aap kaa sipaas-guzaar hai.
Naseer
Srinage...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Brilliant!
Jamil
kehtey haiN usey zabaan-e-Urdu
jis meN na ho raNg Faarsi kaa
This she'r of Daagh is, I suppose, appropriate in view of our Farsi-
intensive discussion of late.
Jamil
Naseer
janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai
isii liye to maiN ne is laRii meN Iqbal ke Urdu shi'r par baat-chiit
kii guzaarish kii hai!!
agar "zabaan-e-Urdu" meN Faarsii kaa "rang" nahiiN to kis zabaan kaa
hai?
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
UVR
Naseer saahib, aadaab.
aap kaa "quote-karda" Iqbal kaa sh'er hai:
gesu-e-Urdu abhi minnat pazeer-e-shaanah hai
sham'a yeh saudaa'i-e-dil sozi-e-parwaanah hai
aur sawaal aap ne poochha hai yeh:
> to aslii mauzuu' kii taraf ruKH karte hu'e maiN yih 'arz karnaa
> chaahtaa huuN kih 'Allaamah MuHammad Iqbaal ne jab yih shi'r kahaa
> thaa to un ko Urdu kii kyaa kyaa KHaamiyaaN nazar aa'iiN?
to janaab mere Khayaal se aap ke sawaal kaa jawaab honaa chaahiye:
"koi naheeN!"
'Allama kaa yeh sh'er dar-asl "standalone sh'er" naheeN hai. bal.k
yeh un ki ek nazm, "Mirza Ghalib", ke ek band ke aaKhiri do misr'e
haiN. poora band kuchh yooN hai:
lutf-e-goyaa'i meN teri ham.sari mumkin naheeN
ho taKhayyul kaa na jab tak fikr-e-kaamil ham.nasheeN
haaye! ab kyaa hoga ae HindositaaN ki sar.zameeN
aah, ai nazzara.aamoz e nigaah e nukta.beeN
gesu-e-Urdu abhi minnat pazeer-e-shaanah hai
sham'a yeh saudaa'i-e-dil.sozi-e-parwaanah hai
jaisaa k nazm ke 'unwaan se zaahir hai, yahaaN baat Urdu zabaan ki
naheeN bal.k Ghalib kaa zikr ho rahaa hai. darj-e-baala band ke pahle
misr'e meN bhi Iqbal Ghalib ki baat kar rahe haiN aur aaKhiri do meN
bhi. lutf-e-goyaa'i meN kahte haiN Ghaalib ki ham.sari mumkin
naheeN. Ghalib hi woh 'aashiq hai jis ke (se) shaane par zulf-e-Urdu
bikharne ko aaj tak taras rahi hai, aur Ghalib hi woh parwaana, jis ki
(si) dil.sozi ki sham'a (=Urdu) deewaani hai.
Gharaz k mere haqeer-o-naaqis Khayaal meN is sh'er meN 'Allama Urdu
zabaan ki *Khaami* ki baat naheeN kar rahe. haaN, ek *kami* kaa
zaroor unheN ahsaas hai: Ghalib ke se 'aashiq ki kami.
-UVR.
Zafar
gustaaKhi mu'aaf, lekin meri naaqis raaye meN yahaaN shaanah kaa
matlab "kandhaa" naheeN bal k "kanghi" hai. ya'ani Urdu ki zulf e
paraagandah ko aik 'adad kanghi ki zaroorat hai. Khud Ghalib ne bhi
(kam az kam) aik jag'h is lafz ko inhi ma'anoN meN iste'emaal kiyaa
hai:
jis jaa naseem shaana-kash e zulf e yaar hai
naafa dimaaGh e aahoo e dasht e tataar hai
jaate jaate shaana = kandhaa kaa she'r bhi sunte jaa'iye (chaahe
libaas hi kaa sahi):
angRaa'iyaaN jo leeN mire us tang-posh ne
choli nikal nikal ga'yi, shaana masak gayaa
aur haaN, Naseer saahib oopar likthe the:
2) Urdu hai jis kaa naam hamiiN jaante haiN DaaGh
saare jahaan meN dhuum hamaarii zabaan kii hai
jahaaN tak mujhe yaad paRtaa hai, doosraa misra kuchh yooN hai:
*HindostaaN* meN dhoom hamaari *zabaaN* ki hai
aadaab arz hai,
Zafar
> Gharaz k mere haqeer-o-naaqis Khayaal meN is sh'er meN 'Allama Urdu
> zabaan ki *Khaami* ki baat naheeN kar rahe. haaN, ek *kami* kaa
> zaroor unheN ahsaas hai: Ghalib ke se 'aashiq ki kami.
>
UVR
> On Nov 2, 6:07 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > lutf-e-goyaa'i meN teri ham.sari mumkin naheeN
> > ho taKhayyul kaa na jab tak fikr-e-kaamil ham.nasheeN
> > haaye! ab kyaa hoga ae HindositaaN ki sar.zameeN
> > aah, ai nazzara.aamoz e nigaah e nukta.beeN
> > gesu-e-Urdu abhi minnat pazeer-e-shaanah hai
> > sham'a yeh saudaa'i-e-dil.sozi-e-parwaanah hai
>
> > jaisaa k nazm ke 'unwaan se zaahir hai, yahaaN baat Urdu zabaan ki
> > naheeN bal.k Ghalib kaa zikr ho rahaa hai. darj-e-baala band ke pahle
> > misr'e meN bhi Iqbal Ghalib ki baat kar rahe haiN aur aaKhiri do meN
> > bhi. lutf-e-goyaa'i meN kahte haiN Ghaalib ki ham.sari mumkin
> > naheeN. Ghalib hi woh 'aashiq hai jis ke (se) shaane par zulf-e-Urdu
> > bikharne ko aaj tak taras rahi hai, aur Ghalib hi woh parwaana, jis ki
> > (si) dil.sozi ki sham'a (=Urdu) deewaani hai.
>
> gustaaKhi mu'aaf, lekin meri naaqis raaye meN yahaaN shaanah kaa
> matlab "kandhaa" naheeN bal k "kanghi" hai. ya'ani Urdu ki zulf e
> paraagandah ko aik 'adad kanghi ki zaroorat hai. Khud Ghalib ne bhi
> (kam az kam) aik jag'h is lafz ko inhi ma'anoN meN iste'emaal kiyaa
> hai:
>
> jis jaa naseem shaana-kash e zulf e yaar hai
> naafa dimaaGh e aahoo e dasht e tataar hai
>
>
> Zafar
Zafar saahib, kyaa kahne! aap ki baat se maiN sau fee-sadi muttafiq
hooN. yahaaN par shaana = kanghi hi honaa chaahiye. shukriya!
-UVR.
Naseer
miaN is amr se ba-KHuubii vaaqif thaa kih yih shi'r tan-i-tanhaa
nahiiN balkih ek nazm ba-'unvaan"Mirza Ghalib" kaa juzv hai. yih bhii
durust hai kih Iqbal is nazm meN Ghalib kii ta'riif ke pul baaNdh
rahaa thaa. diidah-o-daanistah maiN ne is shi'ir ko alag is liye
likhaa hai kyoNkih mujhe yuuN lagaa kih Iqbal ke nazdiik Urdu zabaan
meN abhii kuchh "KHaamiyaaN" haiN jinheN Ghalib jaise log hii duur kar
sakte haiN. mujhe aap kii is baat se ittifaaq hai kih lafz "KHaamii"
is siyaaq-o-sibaaq meN mauzuuN nahiiN. ziyaadah munaasib lafz shaayad
"kamii" hii hai.
so, ba-qaul Ghulam Rasool Mihr, "Urdu kii zulf abhii tak kaNghii kii
muHtaaj hai awr yih sham' (Urdu) parvaane ke dil kii jalan par laTuu
hai. ya'nii abhii ise zaruurat hai kih parvaane is par jal jal kar
qurbaan hoN....". Iqbal kii is baat se yih ishaarah miltaa hai kih
Urdu kaa saulah-siNgaar abhii tak puuraa nahiiN hu'aa. abhii is ke
siyaah lambe awr ghane baaloN meN kaNghii baaqii rah ga'ii hai. maiN
yih puuchhnaa chaahtaa huuN kih is "kaNghii kii zaruurat" se Iqbal kii
kyaa muraad hai.
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
On Oct 31, 2:57 am, nageshsa...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The following ghazal was posted to ALUP by Ali Minai, whose absence
> from this group stretches out in front of us like a dreary New England
> (or is it Cincinatti) winter. Because the ghazal was written by an
> Urdu poet, I assume that you would consider it Urdu poetry :-) It is
> undoubtedly about Urdu.
Thank you for posting this delightful Ghazal by Dilaavar Figaar. I
enjoyed
it very much. I would like to add that serious attempts have been made
to invite Dr. Minai Sahib back to the fold of ALUP-nagar in order to
thaw the wintry ice of New England and change to cool streams flowing
in the
green meadows of Old England! But alas, it was n't to be. All I can I
say is that it was n't through lack of trying.
This does not mean that the people present are incapable of such a
transformation. In fact, ham ise paradise on Earth ya'nii gulshan-i-
Kashmiir banaa sakte haiN!! thoRii himmat chaahiye.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
asad
cha.nd sher ye bhii hai.n:
----------------------------------------------------------------
jis ko paRhtaa nahii.n koii bolte sab hai.n
janaab-e-Miir ye kaisii zabaan chhoR ga_e
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ab ke mardum shumaarii me.n mai.n ne
bezabaanii zabaan likhvaaii
------------------------------------------------------------------
kyaa Kuub tumne haq adaa urduu kaa kar diyaa
bas chup raho hamaare bhii mu.nh me.n zabaan hai
(Roshan Lal)
------------------------------------------------------------------
kaineDa, yuu es e ho yaa imaaraat-e-Kaliij {*}
shaayaron ne bo diyaa hai har jagah urduu kaa biij
(Dilaawar Figaar)
{*} Canada, USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
chaltii hu_ii qai.nchii na ho jis ke mu.nh me.n
vo shaKs kabhii ahl-e-zabaa.n ho nahii.n saktaa
(Shabnam Romani)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
lab-e-maadar se mullaa loriyaa.n jisne sunaaii thii.n
vo din aayaa hai ab us ko bhii Gairo.n kii zabaa.n samjhuu.n
(Anand Narayan Mulla)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
mullaa banaa diyaa hai ise bhii mahaaz-e-ja.ng
ek sul'h kaa payaam thii urduu zabaa.n kabhii
(Anand Narayan Mulla)
------------------------------------------------------------------
vo boltaa hai nigaaho.n se is qadar urduu
Kamosh rah ke bhii ahl-e-zabaa.n saa lagtaa hai
-----------------------------------------------------------------
chhiRaa jab zikr taqsiim-e-watan ke jaur-e-bejaa kaa
to aksar ye huaa urduu zabaa.n tak baat jaa pahu.nchii
(Maikash Kaashmiri)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
na urduu hai zabaa.n merii, na hindii hai zabaa.n merii
zabaan-e-maadri kuchh bhii nahii.n, guu.ngii hai maa.n merii
(Dilaawar Figar)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
wasl kii shab mai.n ne us but se laRaa_ii thii zabaa.n
ye asar us kaa huaa urduu se hindii laR ga_ii
(Akbar Ilaahabaadi)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
kahaa jo mai.n ne ki un kii adaa anokhii hai
kahaa buto.n ne ki urduu miaa.n kii chokhi hai
(Akbar Ilaahabaadi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
begharii kaa karb, fikr-e-aab-o-gandum kii sazaa
ham bhii apne des me.n urduu ke fankaaro.n me.n hai.n
(Sabir Dutt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
qat'aat
tere tahziib-o-tamaddun hai.n zamaane me.n qadiim
terii dhartii pe hai.n kab se ka_ii aqwaam muqiim
yuu.n to maujuud yahaa.n kitnii zabaane.n thii.n qadiim
mujh se paidaa huaa logo.n me.n magar zauq-e-saliim
mujh se bas ahl-e-ta'assub ko pareshaanii thii
varna dunyaa mere asluub kii diiwaanii thii
(Taalib Ku.ndmiri ) (?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
urduu zabaa.n kii karte hai.n Kidmat jo log ab
is ke tufail jald se hii phuul phal ga_e
itnii taraqqii kii hai taraqqii kii dauR me.n
urduu ko piichhe chhoR ke aage nikal ga_e
(Asrar Jaamai)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
urduu zabaa.n hai kitnii taraqqi pe jaama_ii
mash-huur ho ga_ii hai ye saare jahaan me.n
is ka sabab hai, itnaa bhii urduu adab nahii.n
naqqaad jitne ho ga_e hai.n is zabaan me.n
(Asrar Jaamai)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ek maut kaa jashn manaa le.n to chale.n
phir po.nchh ke ashk muskuraa le.n to chale.n
aa tujh ko gale lagaa kar ae miTtii urduu
ek aaKirii giit gaa le.n to chale.n
(Anand Narayan Mulla)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please correct any inaccuracies.
Naseer saaheb, the sher you have mentioned as:
D)
zulm Urdu pih bhii hotaa hai awr is nisbat se
log Urdu ko musalmaan samajh lete haiN
I have seen it earlier in a slightly different form.
zulm urduu pih bhii hotaa hai *isii* nisbat se
log urduu ko musalmaan samajh *baiThe* haiN
Don't know which one is the correct version.
Thanks
Asad
Naseer
kaii haftoN kii Ghair Haazirii ke ba'd aap ALUP meN tashriif laa'e
haiN. KHair to hai? itnaa 'arsah kahaaN guzaar aa'e?
Urdu se vaa-bastah shi'r pesh karne ke liye bahut bahut shukriyah.
Urdu "lab-o-lahjah" meN baatooN hii baatoN meN "ahl-i-zabaan" kaa zikr
chhiR gayaa. maiN ne to apnii jaanib se "ahl-i-zabaan" kii istilaaH
kii ta'riif pesh kar dii lekin janaab-i-Afzal Sahib is mu'aamale meN
KHaamosh hii rahe. kam az kam Shabnam Romani ne kuchh Had tak yih
kamii puurii kar dii hai!:) Afzal Sahib, kyaa aap ko is definition se
ittifaaq hai?
> chaltii hu_ii qai.nchii na ho jis ke mu.nh me.n
> vo shaKs kabhii ahl-e-zabaa.n ho nahii.n saktaa
> (Shabnam Romani)
>
> Naseer saaheb, the sher you have mentioned as:
> D)
> zulm Urdu pih bhii hotaa hai awr is nisbat se
> log Urdu ko musalmaan samajh lete haiN
>
> I have seen it earlier in a slightly different form.
>
> zulm urduu pih bhii hotaa hai *isii* nisbat se
> log urduu ko musalmaan samajh *baiThe* haiN
>
> Don't know which one is the correct version.
I copied this shi'r from the internet Asad Sahib. Perhaps Zafar Sahib
might be able to help.
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
UVR
mohtaram Naseer saahib,
maiN janaab-e-Mehr ke lafz "laTToo" ke ist'emaal ke baare meN to kuchh
naheeN kahooNga, magar Iqbal ke sh'er par un ki (darj-e-baalaa) sharH
ke baaqi alfaaz se mujhe ittifaaq hai.
"solah singaar" ke baare meN maiN yeh kahooNgaa k aisaa hargiz naheeN
hogaa k "solah singaar abhi tak pooraa naheeN huaa". bal-k shaayad
yaqeenee taur par kahaa jaa saktaa hai k (Iqbal ki nazroN meN) Ghaalib
ke rahte Urdu kaa solah singaar poora hi naheeN ho chukaa thaa, bal-k
is qadar taaq pe thaa k is ke jalwoN kaa jaadoo sar chaRh ke boltaa
thaa. lekin ... kyaa Ghaalib kaa jaanaa, aur kyaa is singaar kaa ujaR
jaanaa.
ho na ho Ghalib jaise 'aashiq ke na rahne hi ke Gham meN ma'ashooq
baal bikhere paRaa hai. waise bhi, sachchaa 'aashiq na rahe, to
mahboob ke ban_ne saNwarne kaa koi kaaran baaqi rah jaaye?[1]
aadaab 'arz hai.
-UVR.
[1] isee baat ko kisi filmi shaa'ir ne yooN kahaa hai --
hai ban_ne saNwarne kaa jab hi mazaa, koi dekhne waalaa
'aashiq to ho
naheeN to yeh jalwe haiN bujhte diye, koi miTne waalaa ik
'aashiq to ho
Identification of the song in which these lines exist and of the
lyricst thereof is left as an exercise to the interested reader.
Zoya
> > D)
> > zulm Urdu pih bhii hotaa hai awr is nisbat se
> > log Urdu ko musalmaan samajh lete haiN
>
> > I have seen it earlier in a slightly different form.
>
> > zulm urduu pih bhii hotaa hai *isii* nisbat se
> > log urduu ko musalmaan samajh *baiThe* haiN
>
> > Don't know which one is the correct version.
>
> I copied this shi'r from the internet Asad Sahib. Perhaps Zafar Sahib
> might be able to help.
Gentlemen,
aadaab arz hai! :)
Naseer sahib, is silsile ko shuru karne kaa shukriyah, maiN ise bahut
dilchaspi se paRh rahii huuN.
jo sher maiN ne uupar quote kiya hai, go aap us ke baare meiN Zafar
sahib se muKhaatib haiN, lekin mere paas ek kitaab hai jis meiN yeh
sher darj hai, aur usii shakl meiN hai jaisa k Asad sahib ne likhaa
hai. is sher ke shaayar haiN: Aqeel Nomani.
And now back to your topic of discussion, let me start with one of my
personal favorites, by Hafeez Jallandhari:
jang ChiiR jaaye ham agar keh deN,
yeh hamaari zubaan hai pyaare! ;)
Here are a couple more, reflecting the status of Urdu in post
partition India, by contemporary Indian Urdu poets:
sitam is martbaa Urdu pe TuuTa,
Khabar Hindi ke aKhbaaroN meiN niklii!
Shakeel Jamali
meri Allah se bas itni dua hai 'Rashid'
maiN jo Urdu meiN vasiyat likhuuN, beTa paRh le!
And finally this absolutely brilliant, thought provoking sher, with a
different spin, by Dr. Satya Pal Anand, there have been times I have
needed to quote this one personally:
mazhab kya hai kisi zabaaN kaa, tumhii bataayo Urdu vaalo?!
shehar-e-suKhan ke sayyad zaade ham, kaafir kehlaaye gaye!!!!
Regards to all,
_____Zoya
Naseer
On Nov 8, 3:45 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> maiN janaab-e-Mehr ke lafz "laTToo" ke ist'emaal ke baare meN to kuchh
> naheeN kahooNga, magar Iqbal ke sh'er par un ki (darj-e-baalaa) sharH
> ke baaqi alfaaz se mujhe ittifaaq hai.
>
> "solah singaar" ke baare meN maiN yeh kahooNgaa k aisaa hargiz naheeN
> hogaa k "solah singaar abhi tak pooraa naheeN huaa". bal-k shaayad
> yaqeenee taur par kahaa jaa saktaa hai k (Iqbal ki nazroN meN) Ghaalib
> ke rahte Urdu kaa solah singaar poora hi naheeN ho chukaa thaa, bal-k
> is qadar taaq pe thaa k is ke jalwoN kaa jaadoo sar chaRh ke boltaa
> thaa. lekin ... kyaa Ghaalib kaa jaanaa, aur kyaa is singaar kaa ujaR
> jaanaa.
>
> ho na ho Ghalib jaise 'aashiq ke na rahne hi ke Gham meN ma'ashooq
> baal bikhere paRaa hai. waise bhi, sachchaa 'aashiq na rahe, to
> mahboob ke ban_ne saNwarne kaa koi kaaran baaqi rah jaaye?[1]
>
> [1] isee baat ko kisi filmi shaa'ir ne yooN kahaa hai --
> hai ban_ne saNwarne kaa jab hi mazaa, koi dekhne waalaa
> 'aashiq to ho
> naheeN to yeh jalwe haiN bujhte diye, koi miTne waalaa ik
> 'aashiq to ho
>
> Identification of the song in which these lines exist and of the
> lyricst thereof is left as an exercise to the interested reader.
tafsiilii javaab kaa shukriya. saath hii "laTTuu" awr "solah-singaar"
ke hijjoN kii tasHiiH ke liye maiN aap kaa mamnuun huuN.
aap ke javaab se yahii ta'assur miltaa hai kih is shi'r se Iqbal kaa
maqsad Urdu meN kisii qism kii kamii kaa izhaar qat'-an nahiiN thaa
balkih faqat yih muraad thii kih Ghalib ('aashiq) apne chale jaane se
apnii ma'shuuqah (Urdu) ko is aashuftah-Haalii meN chhoR gayaa hai kih
us ke bikhre hu'e baal us ke Gham kii 'akkaasii karte haiN. niiz yih
kih unheN ek shaane kii zaruurat hai. awr jab 'aashiq hii nah rahaa to
kaNghii kaahe ko!
kulliyaat-i-Iqbal ke diibaache meN mudiir-i-maKHzan Lahore, ShaiKH
'Abdu_lqaadir likhte haiN...
"aaKHir meN Urdu shaa'irii kii taraf se maiN yih dar-KHvaast qaabil
musannif se kartaa huuN kih vuh apne dil-o-dimaaGh se Urdu ko vuh
Hissah den jis kii vuh mustaHiq-o-muHtaaj hai. KHvud unhoN ne Ghalib
kii ta'riif meN chand band likhe hain jin meN ek shi'r meN Urdu kii
Haalat kaa saHiiH naqshah kheNchaa hai
gesuu-i-Urdu abhii minnat-paziir-i-shaanah hai
sham' yih saudaa'ii-i-dil-sozii-i-parvaanah hai
ham in kaa yih shi'r paRh kar un se kahte haiN kih jis iHsaas ne yih
shi'r un se nikalvaayaa hai, us se kaam le kar vuh kuchh 'arsh ke liye
gesuu-i-Urdu ke saNvaarne kii taraf mutavajjuh hoN awr hameN mauqa'
deN kih ham isii majmuu'ah-i-Urdu ko jo is qadar der ke ba'd chhupaa
hai ek duusre kulliyaat-i-Iqbal kaa pesh-KHaimah samjheN".
shaayad is "gesuu-i-Urdu" ko saNvaarne kaa maqsad Urdu zabaan meN
kisii qism kii kamii kii taraf ishaarah nahiiN hai balkih faqat Iqbal
yih kah rahaa hai kih Urdu kii taraf "tavajjuh" kii zaruurat hai naa
kih be-ruKHii.
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
> Urdu se vaa-bastah shi'r pesh karne ke liye bahut bahut shukriyah.
> Urdu "lab-o-lahjah" meN baatooN hii baatoN meN "ahl-i-zabaan" kaa zikr
> chhiR gayaa. maiN ne to apnii jaanib se "ahl-i-zabaan" kii istilaaH
> kii ta'riif pesh kar dii lekin janaab-i-Afzal Sahib is mu'aamale meN
> KHaamosh hii rahe. kam az kam Shabnam Romani ne kuchh Had tak yih
> kamii puurii kar dii hai!:) Afzal Sahib, kyaa aap ko is definition se
> ittifaaq hai?
>
>> chaltii hu_ii qai.nchii na ho jis ke mu.nh me.n
>> vo shaKs kabhii ahl-e-zabaa.n ho nahii.n saktaa
>> (Shabnam Romani)
> Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
You have again referred to a rather sensitive issue. And as far
as my remaining "silent" is concerned, that is entirely incorrect.
I have touched upon this subject more than once.
I think, in mid-August this year, there was a thread relating to
a sher by a Pakistani poet Zafar Iqbal which used an expression
"Us ne waapas aana hai". In that thread, I had expressed an
opinion as under (and I quote) :
"These days, when all of us are trying our best to keep the banner
of our language flying high, let us not revive any arguments that
tend to be divisive. So "ahl-e-zabaan" need not feel superior to
other ethnic groups, and the latter too ought not to act as too
defensive.
Lastly, there IS such a term as "ahl-e-zabaan". It is used and
understood in a specific context and that too is undeniable. In
whatever way Naseer Saheb (or myself) choose to 'define' it, the
original connotation is not going to change."
In the same thread, I think, our friend Asa'd Saheb had narrated
a lateefa (and again I quote) :
"ek hasb-e-mauqa latiifah suniye, jo hai to merii haT meiN, lekin
hai mazedaar. maiN ne bachpan meiN BBC Urdu pe sunaa thaa.
ek martabaa "All India Radio" ke saabiq mudiir/chairman se kisii
ne daryaaft kiyaa k janaab ye baataiye k "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa
hai" Thiik hai ya "mujhe vahaaN jaanaa hai". unhoN ne javaab
diyaa "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" durust hai. is par puuchne
vaale ne hairat kaa izhaar kiyaa k janaab aap itne baRe urdudaan
hote huye ye kaise farmaate haiN! is par hazrat ne kahaa k,
miyaaN baat siidhii sii hai. "mujhe vahaaN jaana hai" se sirf
ye pataa chaltaa haik jaanaa kahaaN hai. jab k "maiN ne vahaaN
jaanaa hai" se ye bhii ma'luum ho jaataa hai, k aaye kahaaN se
haiN! :)
Also, Raj Kumar Saheb too has referred to this expression in his
posts from time to time.
You have also referred to Shabnam Romani's sher. I have little
or no idea as to his standing as an Urdu poet. But, why can't
we interpret that sher in a general sense ? Maybe, it only
refers to a certain flow while speaking ANY language. "Us
shaKHs ki zabaan qaiNchee ki tarah chalti hai" --- this is a
sort of mohawara that we have come across in various writings
and also in colloquial usage. You should hear people from
the South speaking in Telugu or Tamil. You won't believe how
fast they speak. They MAY be "ahl-e-zabaan" in THEIR native
tongues --- but do you seriously believe that only the ability
to speak fast (by itself) qualifies all and sundry to be called
"ahl-e-zabaan" in the context of Urdu ?
I don't think any useful purpose would be served by discussing
this issue any further.
Afzal
Naseer
On Nov 9, 2:30 am, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Naseer wrote:
> > Urdu se vaa-bastah shi'r pesh karne ke liye bahut bahut shukriyah.
> > Urdu "lab-o-lahjah" meN baatooN hii baatoN meN "ahl-i-zabaan" kaa zikr
> > chhiR gayaa. maiN ne to apnii jaanib se "ahl-i-zabaan" kii istilaaH
> > kii ta'riif pesh kar dii lekin janaab-i-Afzal Sahib is mu'aamale meN
> > KHaamosh hii rahe. kam az kam Shabnam Romani ne kuchh Had tak yih
> > kamii puurii kar dii hai!:) Afzal Sahib, kyaa aap ko is definition se
> > ittifaaq hai?
>
> >> chaltii hu_ii qai.nchii na ho jis ke mu.nh me.n
> >> vo shaKs kabhii ahl-e-zabaa.n ho nahii.n saktaa
> >> (Shabnam Romani)
> You have again referred to a rather sensitive issue. And as far
> as my remaining "silent" is concerned, that is entirely incorrect.
> I have touched upon this subject more than once.
> I think, in mid-August this year, there was a thread relating to
> a sher by a Pakistani poet Zafar Iqbal which used an expression
> "Us ne waapas aana hai". In that thread, I had expressed an
> opinion as under (and I quote) :
> "These days, when all of us are trying our best to keep the banner
> of our language flying high, let us not revive any arguments that
> tend to be divisive. So "ahl-e-zabaan" need not feel superior to
> other ethnic groups, and the latter too ought not to act as too
> defensive.
I brought up this topic up not through any malice or intension of
creating division but in a light hearted manner to "extract" your
definition or understanding of this phrase. Perhaps I am dense and you
might already have given an explanation.
> Lastly, there IS such a term as "ahl-e-zabaan". It is used and
> understood in a specific context and that too is undeniable. In
> whatever way Naseer Saheb (or myself) choose to 'define' it, the
> original connotation is not going to change."
This is what I would like to understand, Afzal Sahib. How is "ahl-i-
zabaan" understood in a specific context and what is this original
connotation?
> You have also referred to Shabnam Romani's sher. I have little
> or no idea as to his standing as an Urdu poet. But, why can't
> we interpret that sher in a general sense ? Maybe, it only
> refers to a certain flow while speaking ANY language. "Us
> shaKHs ki zabaan qaiNchee ki tarah chalti hai" --- this is a
> sort of mohawara that we have come across in various writings
> and also in colloquial usage. You should hear people from
> the South speaking in Telugu or Tamil. You won't believe how
> fast they speak. They MAY be "ahl-e-zabaan" in THEIR native
> tongues --- but do you seriously believe that only the ability
> to speak fast (by itself) qualifies all and sundry to be called
> "ahl-e-zabaan" in the context of Urdu ?
I am fully aware of the idiom used by Shabnam Romani and did not think
that this was how one would define "ahl-i-zabaan".This was merely a
way of inviting you to say a few things on this topic. I know that
speed of delivery does not give one an automatic right to be included
amongst the "ahl-i-zabaan".
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
>> Naseer wrote:
> Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
So you used a ruse to get me to step into the picture once again.
From time to time, you have come up with your own definition (or
perhaps definitions) of this expression. And, quite obviously,
you would like to believe that those definitions are absolutely
correct. Unfortunately, IMHO, that doesn't happen to be the case.
Do you think any useful purpose would be served if one were to
explain (in specific terms) what the expression REALLY means ?
I don't think so. So, maybe, you should continue to believe what
you have liked to believe so far.
As you are no doubt aware, most countries have an elaborate system
of classifying secret documents and vital pieces of information.
For instance, "Eyes-Only" would mean that the document is to be
seen ONLY by the person to whom it is addressed or directed.
In the current case, I think the best course is to classify this
piece of information on the basis of "Need To Know". And there is
no need to explain THIS particular classification !
Afzal
Naseer
On Nov 9, 8:52 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>So you used a ruse to get me to step into the picture once again.
mere KHayaal meN lafz "ruse" ke piichhe "Ghalat raah par lagaanaa" awr
"fareb denaa" jaise 'anaasir shaamil haiN jab kih aap ko "invite"karte
vaqt mere zihn meN aisaa ko'ii mansuubah nahiiN thaa. agar aap aisaa
samajhte haiN to yih merii bad-nasiibii hai awr saath hii mere liye be-
insaafii bhii.
> From time to time, you have come up with your own definition (or
> perhaps definitions) of this expression. And, quite obviously,
> you would like to believe that those definitions are absolutely
> correct. Unfortunately, IMHO, that doesn't happen to be the case.
gustaaKhii mu'aaf, Afzal Sahib, yahaaN bhii aap Ghalatii par haiN.maiN
ne kabhii yih nahiiN sochaa kih merii "definition/s" Harf-i-aaKHir
hai(N) awr yih kih awr kisii kii raa'e be-ma'nii hai. isii liye to
maiN aap se is baat ke baare meN puuchh rahaa thaa. aap shaayad maaneN
yaa nah maaneN, ham Panjaabii log aap jaise logoN ko, aap kii Urdu kii
vajh se nihaayat 'izzat-o-iHtiraam kii nigaahiN se dekhte haiN kyoNkih
hamaare liye aap ek a'laa miyaar kii Haisiyyat rakhte haiN jise
apnaanaa hamaare liye faKHr kii baat hai.
> Do you think any useful purpose would be served if one were to
> explain (in specific terms) what the expression REALLY means ?
> I don't think so. So, maybe, you should continue to believe what
> you have liked to believe so far.
maiN uupar 'arz kar chukaa huuN kih meraa maan_naa yaa nah maan-naa
itnii ahmiyyat nahiiN rakhtaa. lekin agar aap aisaa soch rahe haiN to
mujhe is kaa dukh hai.
> As you are no doubt aware, most countries have an elaborate system
> of classifying secret documents and vital pieces of information.
> For instance, "Eyes-Only" would mean that the document is to be
> seen ONLY by the person to whom it is addressed or directed.
>
> In the current case, I think the best course is to classify this
> piece of information on the basis of "Need To Know". And there is
> no need to explain THIS particular classification !
bahut achchaa.
KHair-andesh,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
By using the word "ruse", it was not my intention to hurt your
feelings in any way. The word has different connotations ---
one of them being "a wily stratagem". But if you felt hurt,
let me hasten to offer my apologies.
I have always believed that all Urdu lovers deserve full
respect. And I have made this plain on numerous occasions.
From my side, I don't think I have ever raised this issue.
But if the expression happens to exist, it is certainly not
my fault. I didn't invent it.
As you too will concede, my principle or "maslak" is
"sulh-e-kul", unless it has something to do with defending
our language.
I am convinced that NO useful purpose will be served if this
particular issue keeps cropping up. I hope you will under-
stand and appreciate my point of view in this regard.
Afzal
UVR
But now that it has come up, I think I (for one) am sufficiently
intrigued to know what characteristic(s) a person must possess -- IN
ADDITION TO a *knowledge* of the language, idiom, and nuance of Urdu
and of its poetry, literature and culture -- to be eligible for
inclusion in the august association of "ahl-e-zabaan".
For example, are any of the following famous individuals qualified to
be described as "ahl-e-zabaan"?
. Firaq Gorakhpuri
. Dr. Gopi Chand Narang
. Munshi Prem Chand
. Sardar Mohinder Singh Bedi
. Pandit Daya Shankar Naseem
. Pt. Jagannath Jha 'Azad'
. Mehdi Hassan
. Ghulam Ali
. Jagjit Singh
A simple yes or no answer will suffice against each name.
-UVR.
Naseer
On Nov 10, 1:59 am, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I have always believed that all Urdu lovers deserve full
> respect. And I have made this plain on numerous occasions.
> From my side, I don't think I have ever raised this issue.
> But if the expression happens to exist, it is certainly not
> my fault. I didn't invent it.
I fail to see how the mere mention of the phrase "ahl-i-zabaan" is
construed as a "rather sensitive issue". I did not suggest that you
were responsible for raising this "issue". Nor is anyone blaming you
for its existence. I for one do not regard it as an "issue".
> I am convinced that NO useful purpose will be served if this
> particular issue keeps cropping up. I hope you will under-
> stand and appreciate my point of view in this regard.
Usage of the term "ahl-i-zabaan" is a reality as shown in the works of
our well-known poets. I regard myself as one of the "ahl-i-zabaan",
the only difference being that in my case the "zabaan" is Punjabi. If
we discuss the concept of ahl-i-zabaan and factors which give rise to
one's inclusion or exclusion of it, I can not see any problem with it.
At the same time if one asks a person of Urdu background like your
goodself, questions relating to this concept, again I do not see how
one is committing any kind of offence. You of course have every right
not to answer such questions for your own personal reasons but I must
say, I am baffled as to why "state secrets" have to enter into the
conversation.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
Naseer Saheb,
I think it is now my turn to feel baffled.
This IS a rather sensitive issue. To be an "ahl-e-zabaan"
is a bit like being the member of an elite club. If someone
asserts that so-and-so is NOT an "ahl-e-zabaan", it may seem
like a slight. Some people believe, to this day, that
Iqbal (with all his erudition etc.) was not really an "ahl-e-
zabaan". That of course is neither here nor there. There is
an old saying that "bolte ki zabaan naheeN pakRi ja sakti".
I am not saying that I am in agreement or disagreement with the
above view of Iqbal. In my opinion, this is rather irrelevant.
If someone asserts the above view (on a public forum), you can
imagine the furore that it will generate, particularly in
Pakistan (and, of course, elsewhere too).
You must also have seen UVR Saheb's post where he has asked whether
certain persons named by him are "ahl-e-zabaan" or not. I presume
the question was directed to you. If you (or someone else, for
that matter) were to express an opinion that, from that list, X, Y
and Z may not be considered as "ahl-e-zabaan", can't you imagine
the controversy such an opinion may create ?
For the above reasons, I would not like to either give a specific
"definition" or to discuss the matter even en passant. I have
said repeatedly that all Urdu lovers are worthy of respect. Is
there anything wrong in entertaining and expressing this view ?
I am sure you are aware of the Caste System as it existed in India.
Now, of course, it has been "outlawed", but the feelings of
'superiority' and 'inferiority' that the System enshrined have not
been obliterated altogether. One can see the "outlawed" System
still permeating Indian politics, even in this day and age. It is
quite possible that this paragraph itself may not be to everybody's
liking.
I am constrained to observe your ire and pique --- and that too at
just my reluctance to discuss this subject. The consequences of a
a full-scale debate can well be imagined.
I never said that you committed any sort of "offence" by (again)
raising this topic or subject (and I am deliberately avoiding the
word "issue" here, as that may give you offence).
And my reluctance in this regard is not due to any (undisclosed)
personal reasons --- I have always explained them in very plain
language.
Re : "State Secrets" : The last two paragraphs of my relevant post
(dated 9th November) were composed in a lighter vein. But, it
would seem that my sense of humour had acquired a severe cold
(like myself, these days).
Afzal
Naseer
On Nov 10, 4:44 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But now that it has come up, I think I (for one) am sufficiently
> intrigued to know what characteristic(s) a person must possess -- IN
> ADDITION TO a *knowledge* of the language, idiom, and nuance of Urdu
> and of its poetry, literature and culture -- to be eligible for
> inclusion in the august association of "ahl-e-zabaan".
>
> For example, are any of the following famous individuals qualified to
> be described as "ahl-e-zabaan"?
>
> . Firaq Gorakhpuri
> . Dr. Gopi Chand Narang
> . Munshi Prem Chand
> . Sardar Mohinder Singh Bedi
> . Pandit Daya Shankar Naseem
> . Pt. Jagannath Jha 'Azad'
> . Mehdi Hassan
> . Ghulam Ali
> . Jagjit Singh
>
> A simple yes or no answer will suffice against each name.
In the most recent post of Afzal Sahib addressed to me, he has
indicated that your above post is perhaps addressed to me. I must
confess I thougt it was addressed to Afzal Sahib for the simple reason
that I was asking him to offer his thoughts on the component parts of
an "ahl-i-zabaan". Afzal Sahib has rightly indicated that I have
already offered my understanding of this phrase (in the Urdu lab-o-
lahjah thread). If you are indeed asking me the question then it would
be quite easy for you to put it (my understanding) against these names
and get appropriate ticks and crosses.
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Asa'd
chaahtaa huuN:)
yaqiin kiijiye "ahle-zabaan pe guftuguu" meiN vo mazaa nahiiN jo "ahl-
e-zabaan kii guftuguu" meiN hai. so aap bhi suniye....
www.esnips.com/doc/06b37e7f-728e-4532-9d09-e4c0067db4c6/Janab-Mushtaq-Ahmad-Yousufi-Sahib---1
http://www.esnips.com/doc/a22066b7-0bfa-4330-828f-5763c6416265/Janab-Mushtaq-Ahmad-Yousufi-Sahib---2
http://www.esnips.com/doc/218af188-4ad6-4043-9eb2-514d79162a06/Janab-Mushtaq-Ahmad-Yousufi-Sahib---3
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f5c39597-42d8-4b0d-8e1e-fa4b3e47c587/Zar-Guzasht--MA-Yosufi
Yusufi Sahib Tonk,Rajasthan meiN paidaa huye aur Zia Moheyeddin
Faislabad meiN. donoN ahl-e-zabaan haiN aur donoN dilli se duur...:)
Khair-aNdesh
Asa'd
UVR
My question was directed to Afzal saahib.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
In other words :
Qur'a-e-faal ba~naam-e-man-e-deewaana ........
To leejiye, jawaab haazir hai.
I think we can safely cross out Jagjit Singh from the above list.
For one thing (amongst other reasons), I don't like the guy's
singing one bit. He tends to sing even a joyful ode like a dirge.
On his lips, even a "qaseeda" would seem like a "marsiya".
Besides, in recent times, he has acquired this irritating habit of
lapsing into "Lara lappa, Lara lappa" right in the middle of a
ghazal. {"Yeh sab log, hasb-e-m'amool ghazal sunte sunte so gaye
haiN. Shaayad 'Lara lappa' sun kar jaag jaayeN...."}
JahaaN tak doosroN ka ta'alluq hai, to UVR Saheb, mere KHayaal men
aap meri raaye se ittefaaq kareNge ke in men so jo bhi "ahl-e-
zabaan" kehlaaye jaane ka/ke mustahiq naheeN hai/haiN, aap ke, ya
mere, ya Naseer Saheb ke ya kisi aur ke kehne se "ahl-e-zabaan" to
naheeN ban jaayeNge. A rose called by any other name may smell
just as sweet. But a thorn ? !!
To phir is sa'ii-e-laa~haasil se kya faaida ?
Lage haathoN, ek waaqi'aa sunaata chalooN, jo hai to sadiyoN
puraana, lekin abhi bhi hamaare liye sabaq rakhta hai.
You will perhaps recall what happened to Galileo in his own
country. The religious authorities there compelled him to swear
that the Sun orbits the Earth. He did so too, on bended knees.
But when he got up, he muttered to himself : "But can I help it
if it is the Earth which in fact moves round the Sun ?"
Ziyaada hadd-e-adab.
Afzal
Naseer
Although I disagree with As'ad Sahib's comment that this discussion is
"be-jaa", I am of the opinion that it has taken us away from the
original topic. For this reason I shall not add anything further on
this topic in this thread.
On Nov 10, 9:00 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I think it is now my turn to feel baffled.
>
> This IS a rather sensitive issue. To be an "ahl-e-zabaan"
> is a bit like being the member of an elite club. If someone
> asserts that so-and-so is NOT an "ahl-e-zabaan", it may seem
> like a slight. Some people believe, to this day, that
> Iqbal (with all his erudition etc.) was not really an "ahl-e-
> zabaan". That of course is neither here nor there. There is
> an old saying that "bolte ki zabaan naheeN pakRi ja sakti".
> I am not saying that I am in agreement or disagreement with the
> above view of Iqbal. In my opinion, this is rather irrelevant.
> If someone asserts the above view (on a public forum), you can
> imagine the furore that it will generate, particularly in
> Pakistan (and, of course, elsewhere too).
Your stand to avoid any possible divisive and discriminatory trends
arising out of the phrase "ahl-i-zabaan" is laudable and we all
applaud you for this. However, just as you have indicated in your
answer to UVR Sahib's question (and I use the word "answer" very
loosely) that there are certain facts such as Galileo's belief in the
Earth revolving round the sun, there are equally irrefutable realities
about the existence of the phrase "ahl-i-zabaan" and how it is
perceived by people within this circle and without. We are all aware,
for example, of Mirza YaasYagana's feeling towards Iqbal when he wrote
Ikbal in its stead. Another example one can give is of Josh who
apparently was, at times, quite harsh in his criticism of Faiz's
diction, which he thought lacked the elan of the "ahl-i-zabaan".
janaab-i-Sarwar Sahib has defined "fasaaHat" in the following way.
"fasaaHat: kee mujmil ta'reef yeh hai k :lafz, fiqre yaa muHaavare ko
is taraH istaimaal kiyaa jaaye jaise mustanad ahl.e.zabaan likhte yaa
bolte haiN".
You yourself have expressed the views of a certain people in the
following words.
"Ek aaKHri baat aur. Urdu Delhi aur us ke qurb-o-nawaah men
pehle aur ziyaada phali~phooli aur is 'ilaaqe ke log apni
zabaan par kaafi naazaaN the, aur deegar 'ilaaqoN men boli
jaane waali zabaan ki in kee nazroN men kuchh ziyaada
waq'at naheeN thi. Un men yeh nazriya "Punjabi" Urdu ke
muta'alliq bhi tha. Woh Punjaabi shu'ara ko bhi ziyaada
KHaatir men naheeN laate the. Aaj kal bhi kuchh logoN ko
'Allaama Iqbal ko "ahl-e-zabaan" manne men taammul hota
hai." Afzal.A.Khan 17/09/2006
All I was asking was a very simple question. How do you define "ahl-i-
zabaan" as, for example, used by you in the above context.
> You must also have seen UVR Saheb's post where he has asked whether
> certain persons named by him are "ahl-e-zabaan" or not. I presume
> the question was directed to you. If you (or someone else, for
> that matter) were to express an opinion that, from that list, X, Y
> and Z may not be considered as "ahl-e-zabaan", can't you imagine
> the controversy such an opinion may create ?
I believe UVR Sahib was trying to ask your view on what constitutes an
"ahl-i-zabaan". He was hoping that from your "yes"/"no" answers, we
would be able to formulate your stance on the subject. But alas, to
use your phrase it was his "sa'ii-i-laa-Haasil", since your answer,
IMHO, told us nothing more than we knew already! You stated:-
"JahaaN tak doosroN ka ta'alluq hai, to UVR Saheb, mere KHayaal
men
aap meri raaye se ittefaaq kareNge ke in men so jo bhi "ahl-e-
zabaan" kehlaaye jaane ka/ke mustahiq naheeN hai/haiN, aap ke,
ya
mere, ya Naseer Saheb ke ya kisi aur ke kehne se "ahl-e-zabaan"
to
naheeN ban jaayeNge. A rose called by any other name may smell
just as sweet. But a thorn ? !!"
aap kii is baat se yih natiijah aKHaz kiyaa jaa saktaa hai kih in
logoN kii fahrist meN se agar ham kisii Ghair-mustaHiq shaKHs ko ahl-i-
zabaan qaraar deN to vuh hamaare kahne se ahl-i-zabaan nahiiN ban
jaa'e gaa. savaal yih uThtaa hai kih kaun sii kasauTii hai jise
isti'maal karte hu'e ham vusuuq se kah sakeN kih yih shaKHs is
aazmaa'ish par puuraa utartaa hai? yaa kih aap yih kah rahe haiN kih
ahl-i-zabaan bante nahiiN, paidaa hote haiN? meraa bhii yahii KHayaal
hai. lekin is ke bar-'aks Professor Francis.W.Prichett has this to
say.
"The true ahl-e zabaan [ahl-e zabaan], who knows and loves the poetry
fully, is made and not born." URDU METER : A PRACTICAL HANDBOOK
Professor Frances W. Pritchett
"We said at the end of Chapter 8 in the original print edition that
real ahl-e zabaan were made and not born. That may have been only
partially the case then, but it's all too true by now. Traditionally-
educated ustads are a dying breed. Classical Urdu poetry, like so much
else, belongs less and less to those who simply inherit it, and more
and more to those who seek it out and adopt it for their own.
The very forces that have deprived us of traditionally-educated
ustads, however, have brought us the internet. Now Urdu poetry is
international, and we can share with each other across time and space.
And of course we still have Mir and Ghalib, and so much else besides.
So dig in, you ahl-e zabaan of the future, and learn to use the tools.
Classical ghazal poetry is an astonishing delight. The rewards are so
rich that you won't exhaust them in a lifetime."
You have mentioned Iqbal not being considered one of ahl-i-zabaan.
According to my understaning of this term, and I have no fear of
offending anyone's sentiments, he was not.
And finally, one or two ash'aar on ahl-i-zabaan.
juuN sham' jam' hoveN gar ahl-i-zabaaN hazaar
aapas meN chaahiye kih kabhuu guftuguu nah ho
Dard
ahl-i-zabaan to haiN bahut ko'ii nahiiN hai ahl-i-dil l
kaun terii taraH "Hafeez" dard (Dard?) ke giit gaa sake
Hafeez Jalandhari
yahii aihl-e-zabaaN kaa hai akhaaRaa
yahii PaNjaabiyoN kii aNjuman hai!
Raj Kumar Qais
.......................................................
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Jamil
Please allow me to join this thread rather late. The expression "ahl-
e-zabaan" probably originates from the times when Indian poets started
writing in Farsi. Their writing and usage of Farsi was not considered
as authentic as the native speakers of the language. The situation
was analogous to attitudes towards modern-day Indian writing in
English; though this attitude is changing now.
In the debates during Ghalib's times, the "ahl-e-zabaan" were quoted
for authenticity, and Indian writers' authority (with few exceptions)
was dismissed. In a letter addressed to Munshi Keval Raam Hushiyaar,
Ghalib writes:
"Ghalib Khaaksaar kehtaa hai keh shu'raa-e-Iran kulluhum ajma'iin
musallam-al-subuut haiN aur un ka kalaam sanad hai: suKhan-varaan-e-
Hind meN Amir Khusro bhi aise hii haiN. ahl-e-zabaan meN Ruudaki o
Firdausi se le kar Jaamii tak aur Jaamii se Saa'eb o Kaliim tak kisii
ne koii kitaab likhii ho, koii farhaNg jam' kii ho, to hameN dikhaa'o.
us ko agar maiN na jaanuuN to maiN gunaahgaar. jitnii farhaNgeN ab
maujuud haiN ... in sab ke jaama' Hindi haiN, koi ahl-e-zabaan nahiiN
hai".
Ghalib wrote this to repudiate some technical attacks on his writing
by a native of Dakkan, who apparently quoted some Farsi dictionaries
edited by Indian lexicographers. It is clear from what Ghalib wrote
that even though he was willing to consider Amir Khusro authentic, he
still did not consider him "ahle-zabaan"-e-Farsi. Ruudki (a Taajik),
Firdausi, Jaami, Saa'eb and Kaliim (all native speakers) were ahl-e-
zabaan.
If we extrapolate from Ghalib's use of the word, we can call only
those "ahl-e-zabaan" whose first language is Urdu. That would
disqualify Iqbal, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Ahmad Faraz, Sahir Ludhianvi, Jagan
Naath Azad and many others. But the distinction between ahl-e-zabaan
and non-ahl-e-zabaan is not as clear as between Iranian and Indian
poets of old.
Faiz was asked about this and he said that it was only in some urban
areas in India that (standard) Urdu was spoken. As soon as one goes
out of the city, each area has a distinct dialog, which might differ
from Urdu more than Punjabi does. It was perhaps his way of
justifying why he wrote in a language which was not his own. But
listening to two people talking in the dialect of a place barely 50
miles from Delhi, one can see his point.
Jamil
B.G.M.
> Haaziriin-i-maHfil, aadaab 'arz hai
>
> go jo kuchh maiN yahaaN kahne vaalaa huuN, yih "Topic of the Month
> 10/08" meN bhii kahaa jaa saktaa thaa. sochaa kih yahaaN (inglistaan)
> ke mausam kii tarH vuh laRii ThiThar sii gaii hai, is liye ek na'ii
> laRii kii ibtidaa karnii chaahiye.
>
> Urdu ke baare meN shaa'iroN ne faKHriyah andaaz meN baateN kii haiN,
> us kii Haalat-i-zaar par gile shikve kiye haiN lekin kam hii kisii ne
> us kii KHaamii yaa kam-zorii kaa khule 'aam zikr kiyaa hai. is se
> pahle kih maiN apne asl mauzuu' kii jaanib aa'uuN, maiN chaahuuN gaa
> kih is laRii meN, jahaaN tak mumkin ho, un ash'aar ko ek jagah
> ikaTThaa kar liyaa jaa'e jin kaa mauzuu' Urdu hai.
>
> Urdu kii sitaa'ish meN
>
> 1) yih reKHtah Vali kaa jaa kar use sunaa de
> rakhtaa hai fikr-e-raushan jo Anvari kii maaniNd
>
> 2) Urdu hai jis kaa naam hamiiN jaante haiN DaaGh
> saare jahaan meN dhuum hamaarii zabaan kii hai
>
> 3) nahiiN khel ai DaaGh yaaroN se kah do
> kih aatii hai Urdu zabaaN aate aate
>
> 4) reKHte meN ham se guftuguu nah kar
> yih hamaarii zabaaN hai pyaare
>
> 5) ko'ii yih kahe kih reKHtah kyoNkih ho rashk-i-Faarsii]
> guftah-i-Ghalib ek baar paRh ke use sunaa kih yuuN
>
> 6) kyaa samajh sakte haiN ghaamaR Hindi awr Urdu kaa farq
> bhaNg ke kullhaR kahaaN sahbaa ke paimaane kahaaN
>
> 7) Haal-i-dil kii zabaan hai Urdu
> mere dil pih to raaj hai is kaa
> go zabaan hai yih ahl-i-iimaaN kii
> kafiraanah mizaaj hai is kaa
>
> 8) aur baat chhoRiye, lafz kii nazaakat dekhiye
> tiin bal khaatii hai qalam, kamar likhne ke liye
>
> 9) naddii kaa moR, chashmah-i-shiiriiN kaa ziir-o-bam
> chaadar shab-i-nujoom kii, shabnam kaa raKHt-i-nam
> motii kii aab, gul kii mahak, maah-i-nau kaa KHam
> in sab ke imtizaaj se paidaa hu'ii hai tuu
> kitne HasiiN ufaq se huvaidaa hu'ii hai tuu
>
> lahjah maleeH hai, kih namak-KHvaar huuN tiraa
> siHatt zabaan meN hai, kih) biimaar huuN tiraa
> aazaad-i-shi'r huuN kih giriftaar huuN tiraa
>
> tere karam se, shi'r-o-suKHan kaa imaam huuN
> shaahoN pih KHanda-zan hooN kih teraa Ghulaam huuN
>
> 10) apne maHbuub kii KHaatir thaa KHudaa ko manzuur
> varnah Qur'aan bhii utartaa ba-zabaan-i-Urdu
>
> 11) shahd-o-shakkar se shiiriiN Urdu zabaaN hamaarii
> hotii hai jis ke bole, miiThii zabaaN hamaarii
>
> 12) vuh 'itr-daan saa lahjah mire buzurgoN kaa
> raxhii-basii hu'ii Urdu zabaaN kii KHush-buu
>
> shikvah-o-shikaayat
>
> A)
>
> ikkiis baras guzre aazaadii-i-kaamil ko
> tab jaa ke kahiiN ham ko Ghalib kaa KHayaal aayaa
> turbat hai kahaaN us kii,maskan thaa kahaaN us kaa
> ab apne suKhan-parvar zihnoN meN KHayaal aayaa
>
> sau saal se jo turbat chaadar ko tarastii thii
> ab us pih 'aqiidat ke phooloN kii numaa'ish hai
> Urdu ke ta'alluq se kuchh bhed nahiiN khultaa
> yih jashn,yih hangaamaah ,KHidmat hai kih saazish hai
>
> jin shahroN meN guuNjii thii Ghalib kii navaa barsoN
> un shahroN meN ab Urdu be-naam-o-nishaaN Thahrii
> aazaadii-i-kaamil kaa i'laan hu'aa jis din
> ma'tuub zabaaN Thahrii Ghaddaar zabaaN Thahrii
>
> jis 'ahd-i-siyaasat ne yih zindah zabaaN kuchlii
> us 'ahd-i-siyaasat ko marHuum kaa Gham kyoN
> Ghalib jise kahte haiN Urdu hii kaa shaa'ir thaa
> Urdu pih sitam Dhaa kar Ghalib pih karam kyoN
>
> yih jashn yih hangaame dil-chasp khilone haiN
> kuchh logoN kii koshish hai kuchh log bahal jaa'eN
> jo va'dah-i-fardaa par ab Tal nahiiN sakte haiN
> mumkin hai kih kuchh 'arsah is jashn pih Tal jaa'eN
>
> yih jashn mubaarak ho, par yih bhii sadaaqat hai
> ham log Haqiiqat ke iHsaas se 'aarii haiN
> GaaNdhii ho kih Ghalib ho, insaaf kii nazroN meN
> ham donoN ke qaatil haiN donoN ke pujaarii haiN.
>
> B)
> yahaaN sab haiN mere chaahne vaale, meraa koii nahiiN
> main Hindustaan meN Urdu kii taraH jiyaa kartaa huuN
>
> C)
>
> Urdu kaun hai Urdu ek be-sahaaraa laRkii hai
> mazah sab lete haiN pyaar kaun kartaa hai
>
> D)
>
> zulm Urdu pih bhii hotaa hai awr is nisbat se
> log Urdu ko musalmaan samajh lete haiN
>
>
> zabaan hamaarii nah samjhaa yahaaN ko'ii MajruuH
> ham ajnabii kii taraH apne hii vatan meN rahe
>
> F)
>
> apnii har saaNs pih iHsaan liye ham-dardoN kaa
> zindagii kartaa huuN is 'ahd meN Urdu kii tarH
>
> G)
>
> saarii dunyaa ne Ghairiyyat bartii
> jaise Urdu zabaan bhii the ham bhii
>
> in ash'aar meN chand mutanaaza' gardaane jaa sakte haiN.
>
> to aslii mauzuu' kii taraf ruKH karte hu'e maiN yih 'arz karnaa
> chaahtaa huuN kih 'Allaamah MuHammad Iqbaal ne jab yih shi'r kahaa
> thaa to un ko Urdu kii kyaa kyaa KHaamiyaaN nazar aa'iiN?
>
> shama' saudaa'ii-i-dil-sozii-i-parvaanah hai
>
> is ke 'ilaavah aap logoN ko Urdu zabaan meN kyaa naqaa'is nazar aate
> haiN jin kii vajh se yih diigar aham baina_laqvaamii zabaanoN se
> piichhe hai?
>
> KHair-KHvaah,
> Naseer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
baat, zabaan-e-Urdu ki chali hai, tau Akbar Ilahabadi kaa ye she`r
bhi
dekh liijiye,
"apne Mehbuub ki Khaatir thaa, Khuda ko manzuur
varnaa QuraaN bhi utartaa ba-zabaan-e-Urdu ! "
=========================================================
Naseer
> baat, zabaan-e-Urdu ki chali hai, tau Akbar Ilahabadi kaa ye she`r
> bhi dekh liijiye,
>
> "apne Mehbuub ki Khaatir thaa Khuda ko manzuur
> varnaa QuraaN bhi utartaa ba-zabaan-e-Urdu ! "
>
> =========================================================
shukriyah janaab-i-B.G.M Sahib, lekin, yih shi'r pahlii hii posT meN
darj hai!:)
Naseer
B.G.M.
baat, "ahl-e-zabaan" ki ho rahii thii, tau ye she`r bhi dekh liijiye,
"Naseem-e-Dehlvee, ham moujuud-e-baab-e-fasaaHat haiN
ko`ii Urdu ko kyaa samjhe gaa, jaise ham samajhte haiN !"
====================================================
UVR
sh'er kaa shukriya, BGM saahib, aur nayaa saal aap ko bahut bahut
mubaarak ho. agar ise gustaaKhi na samjhaa jaaye to 'arz hai k lafz-
e-"maujood" sh'er meN khap naheeN rahaa. mumkin hai yahaaN lafz
"moojid" musta'mal ho. agar yeh sh'er aap ke paas Urdu rasm ulKhat
meN darj ho to guzaarish hai k ek baar "check" kar leN. baRi
mehrbaani hogi. shukriya peshgi qubool farmaayeN.
aadaab 'arz hai.
-UVR.
B.G.M.
Aap ki baat sach hai, Muujid, Theek lag rahaa hai, maiN ne ye ik
Gujaraati kitaab se liyaa thaa.
wahaaN mojed likhaa huvaa hai