pasandiidah ashaar - 5

[Zoya]

aadaab dosto!

aaj kal kuChh fursat hai to maiN ne sochaa k ek taviil muddat ke baad, kyuN na apne pasandiidah ashaar ka silisila Alup par ek baar phir se bahaal kiya jaaye! puraane dost jaante haiN k guzishta barasoN meiN is silisile kii chaar qisteN maiN Alup par post kar chuki huuN.

hamesha kii tarah, is martaba bhii voh ashaar shaamil karne kii koshish karuuN gi jinheN ghaleban maiN ne pehle kahiiN post nahiiN kiya, aur in meiN se kaafi ashaar shaayad aap sab ke liye bhii naye hoN. aur beshtar kalaam un shaayaroN ka hii hai jin kii kitaabeN maiN in dinoN paRh rahii huuN.

Here we go, enjoy!

1. ik teri yaad gale aise paRi hai k ‘Najeeb’
aaj ka kaam bhi ham kal pe uThha rakhte haiN

2. ik vehm kii suurat sar-e-diivaar-e-yaqiiN hai
dekho to haiN maujuud, na dekho to nahiiN haiN

kis tarah sameTeN tiri palkoN ke sitaare
kehne ko to shaayar haiN, magar apne taiiN haiN

3. har moR rah-e-ishq ka andhaa nazar aaya
ai tezi-e-raftaar! muRaa jaaye na mujh se

4. Khud apni zaat ko bevazn kar gaye ham bhii
Khala mila to Khala meiN utar gaye ham bhii

tire kamaal kaa ik rang ham bhii the lekin
tire kamaal kii haibat se Dar gaye ham bhii

5. phailtaa jaata hai har saans rag-o-pai meiN ‘Najeeb’
ek sehra jo abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha

6. raah maaN gi na mashwarah maaN ga
gharq-e-gham gharq-e-intshaar na the

7. kinaare par ‘Najeeb’ utre to shaayad mas’ala Hal ho
muhabbat ke samandar ka kinaara kyuN nahiiN hota?!

Najeeb Ahmed

___Zoya

To be continued.......

[Naseer]

Zoya SaaHibah thank you for starting this thread and introducing
Najeeb Ahmed to us with some really nice ash'aar. A couple of points:-

1) What is "shaayar" in terms of Urdu poetry.

2) Is "saaNs" feminine or masculine in Urdu?

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:52:25 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya SaaHibah thank you for starting this thread and introducing
> Najeeb Ahmed to us with some really nice ash'aar.

aadaab, Naseer sahib.

It is wonderful to talk to you again, I missed you when you were absent from Alup for a little while.I know I have probably forfeited the right to say this considering how inactive I have been on the group in the recent past, but it is the honest truth that Alup was not the same without you.

A couple of points:-
>
> 1) What is "shaayar" in terms of Urdu poetry.

:) :) I knew this was coming from you! :)

I had almost written sh'ora as the plural of sh'air or 'shaayar' in my post, but chose to go with shaayaroN, considering it is more commonly written like that in Roman Urdu. What can I say except what I just said that it is the more common written version and an old habit?!

Also, don't forget that even after all these years of reading Urdu, I am still a lot more comfortable reading and definitely writing in Devanagri and Gurmukhi scripts. So, I sometimes subconsciously transcribe from Hindi version of a word.

>
> 2) Is "saaNs" feminine or masculine in Urdu?

Good question. I am not sure. Definitely up for discussion.

It can probably go either way in Hindi, and you know its equivalent 'saah' is usually masculine in Punjabi. BTW, I believe Najeeb Ahmed is Lahore based.

>
> Naseer

Thanks Naseer bhai, more later.

__Zoya

[Zoya]

> > 2) Is "saaNs" feminine or masculine in Urdu?

> >

> > Naseer

P.S.

I just addressed this question in my post above. But Naseer bhai, if you are referring to sh'er #5 in my original post, then please notice that 'phailtaa' goes with 'sehra', so it is a ok.

__Zoya

[Naseer]

Zoya bahin, yaad aavarii ke liye bahut bahut shukriyah.

I know your Gurmukhi and Punjabi background but my point is that after
having been immersed in Urdu poetry for such a long time (point 1) and
having learnt to read Urdu script (point 2) while being an Urdu poet
(point 3), it does not behove a person to be writing "shaayar" (or
saying shaayar) when you know the word is "shaa'ir" (rhyming with
maahir and not baahar).

Regarding the gender of "saaNs", I thought about a little more and
although the feminine gender is more common, the masculine is also in
use. By the way, I don't believe "saHraa" has anything to do with
"phailtaa".

Naseer

[b_man...@yahoo.com]

5. phailtaa  jaata hai, har saaNs, rag-o-pai meN ‘Najeeb’
   eik seHraa, jo abhi raah meN aayaa bhii nah thaa

I agree with Zoya saahibah. She'r ko agar yuuN paRhaa jaaye to yeh saaf hotaa hai kih
"phailtaa" is indeed used as adverb for "seHraa".

Aadaab arz hai.

=======================================================================

[Vijay]

aadaab Zoya sahiba. yeh laRii shuruu karne ka shukriia. aap ke pesh
kardah aise asha'ar se nae nae sho'raa kaa kalaam paRhne ko mil jaata
hai. aur aap kii pasaNd hai bhii Khuub! is liie is laRii ko bhii kaafi
der chalne deN to meharbaanii.

Naseer sahib, 'phailtaa' kaa ta'alluq mujhe bhii 'sehraa' se hii lagta
hai (na kih saaNs se). dar-asal aap kii post paRh ke mujhe bhii yihii
aNdaaza huua thaa ki aap ne 'saaNs' par jo sawaal uThaia hai, voh
she'r no 5 paRh kar hii uThaaia hoga. maiN soch raha thaa ki kaam se
ghar lauTuuNgaa to jawaab duuNga lekin dekh raha huuN ki baat pehle
hii wazeh ho chukii hai.



Best regards,

Vijay

[Miir]

Mairay khial main to Najeeb phail rahaa hai:)

phailtaa jaata hai, har saans rag-o-pai meiN, ‘Najeeb’

ek sehra jo abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha

phailta jata hai

> Best regards,
>
> Vijay

[Miir]

phailtaa jaata hai, har saaNs rag-o-pai meN ‘Najeeb’,
eik seHraa jo abhi raah meN aayaa bhii nah thaa

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 11:47:46 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya bahin, yaad aavarii ke liye bahut bahut shukriyah.
>
> I know your Gurmukhi and Punjabi background but my point is that after
> having been immersed in Urdu poetry for such a long time (point 1) and
> having learnt to read Urdu script (point 2) while being an Urdu poet
> (point 3), it does not behove a person to be writing "shaayar" (or
> saying shaayar) when you know the word is "shaa'ir" (rhyming with
> maahir and not baahar).

Naseer bhai!!!!!!!

Oh dear, this reminds of what numerous people have told me over the years, starting very early in my life. e.g. when I made a tiny mistake on a geometry exam, my high school Math teacher was shocked and remarked, "How could you, Zoya?!" Never mind the fact that I still had the highest score in the class!

And more recently, when I indulged in some supposedly harmless female gossip, a male member of my immediate family looked scandalized and remarked "Zoya, please, NOT YOU, it so 'unbecoming' of you!" How come the rest of the women in the family can get away with saying stuff much worse, but I can't?!!!

And now YOU are telling me that writing 'shaayar' does not 'behove' a person like me! :):)

Jokes aside, this is why I love Alup and Alupers, it always provides learning opportunities for the members, and you know I am a perpetual student. However,I'm not promising you anything, you can never make a full blooded Punjabi like me a member of the 'ahl-e-zubaan club'! :)

> By the way, I don't believe "saHraa" has anything to do with
> "phailtaa".
>

Well, several members have already responded to this, and I am sure you will reevaluate your position?

Looks like this thread is going to be fun!!

__Zoya

[Naseer]

On Jun 21, 12:42 am, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jokes aside, this is why I love Alup and Alupers, it always provides learning opportunities for the members, and you know I am a perpetual student. However,I'm not promising you anything, you can never make a full blooded Punjabi like me a member of the 'ahl-e-zubaan club'! :)

Believe you me, there is no one more Punjabi than me and I have had
many a "tussle" with the "ahl-i-zabaaN" recently!

It is not about making you a member of the "ahl-i-zabaan" club. It is
about correct pronunciation. Just like the correct pronunciation for
the following words is "baahar" and "vaapas" and NOT baahir and
vaapis, shaa'ir is the correct word and NOT shaayar. At least if you
are talking about Urdu language, its prose or poetry. In Hindi, it may
be "shaayar" but you are not quoting a Hindi poet, as far as I know.
Furthermore, if you were to compose a Ghazal, would you rhyme
"shaayar" with "baahar", "laaGhar", "jaakar" or "shaa'ir" with
"maahir", "zaahir" and"naazir" etc?

> > By the way, I don't believe "saHraa" has anything to do with
> > "phailtaa".
>
> Well, several members have already responded to this, and I am sure you will reevaluate your position?

I would of course go along with the majority verdict but I still do
not believe that "phailtaa jaataa hai" goes with "saHraa". I may come
back on this.

Naseer

[Miir]

On Jun 19, 10:42 am, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> aadaab dosto!
>
> aaj kal kuChh fursat hai to maiN ne sochaa k ek taviil muddat ke baad, kyuN na apne pasandiidah ashaar ka silisila Alup par ek baar phir se bahaal kiya jaaye! puraane dost jaante haiN k guzishta barasoN meiN is silisile kii chaar qisteN maiN Alup par post kar chuki huuN.
>
> hamesha kii tarah, is martaba bhii voh ashaar shaamil karne kii koshish karuuN gi jinheN ghaleban maiN ne pehle kahiiN post nahiiN kiya, aur in meiN se kaafi ashaar shaayad aap sab ke liye bhii naye hoN. aur beshtar kalaam un shaayaroN ka hii hai jin kii kitaabeN maiN in dinoN paRh rahii huuN.
>
> Here we go, enjoy!
>
> 1. ik teri yaad gale aise paRi hai k ‘Najeeb’
>    aaj ka kaam bhi ham kal pe uThha rakhte haiN
>
> 2. ik vehm kii suurat sar-e-diivaar-e-yaqiiN hai
>    dekho to haiN maujuud, na dekho to nahiiN haiN
>
>    kis tarah sameTeN tiri palkoN ke sitaare
>    kehne ko to shaayar haiN, magar apne taiiN haiN
>
> 3. har moR rah-e-ishq ka andhaa nazar aaya
>    ai tezi-e-raftaar! muRaa jaaye na mujh se
>
> 4. Khud apni zaat ko bevazn kar gaye ham bhii
>    Khala mila to Khala meiN utar gaye ham bhii
>
>    tire kamaal kaa ik rang ham bhii the lekin
>    tire kamaal kii haibat se Dar gaye ham bhii
>
> 5. phailtaa  jaata hai har saans rag-o-pai meiN ‘Najeeb’
>    ek sehra jo abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha
>

khailtaa jaata hai har saaNs tag o dau mein raqeeb
wo(h) mohra jo abhi rah maiN aaya bhii na thaa

[Zoya]

BGM sahib,

Yes. Exactly my position.

__Zoya

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:48:06 PM UTC-5, Miir wrote:

aadaab arz hai Rahim sahib,

>
> Mairay khial main to Najeeb phail rahaa hai:)
>
> phailtaa jaata hai, har saans rag-o-pai meiN, ‘Najeeb’
> ek sehra jo abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha

This actually made me laugh out loud! :):)

__Zoya

[Zoya]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:24:34 PM UTC-5, Vijay wrote:
>
> aadaab Zoya sahiba. yeh laRii shuruu karne ka shukriia. aap ke pesh
> kardah aise asha'ar se nae nae sho'raa kaa kalaam paRhne ko mil jaata
> hai. aur aap kii pasaNd hai bhii Khuub! is liie is laRii ko bhii kaafi
> der chalne deN to meharbaanii.

shukriyah to mujhe aap ka karna chaahiye Vijay sahib, aap mehfil ko hamaari ghair maujuudgi meiN aabaad rakhte haiN.

maiN apni taraf se laRi jaari rakhne kii koshish karuuN gi, but I already have a feeling that it is probably going to flow on its own! :)

>
> Naseer sahib, 'phailtaa' kaa ta'alluq mujhe bhii 'sehraa' se hii lagta
> hai (na kih saaNs se). dar-asal aap kii post paRh ke mujhe bhii yihii
> aNdaaza huua thaa ki aap ne 'saaNs' par jo sawaal uThaia hai, voh
> she'r no 5 paRh kar hii uThaaia hoga. maiN soch raha thaa ki kaam se
> ghar lauTuuNgaa to jawaab duuNga lekin dekh raha huuN ki baat pehle
> hii wazeh ho chukii hai.

I agree, but perhaps Naseer sahib is looking at it from a different angle. He says he'll be back with more on that. Let us see.

>
> Vijay

__Zoya

[Zoya]

On Thursday, June 21, 2012 6:29:53 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> It is about correct pronunciation. Just like the correct pronunciation for
> the following words is "baahar" and "vaapas" and NOT baahir and
> vaapis, shaa'ir is the correct word and NOT shaayar. At least if you
> are talking about Urdu language, its prose or poetry. In Hindi, it may
> be "shaayar" but you are not quoting a Hindi poet, as far as I know.
> Furthermore, if you were to compose a Ghazal, would you rhyme
> "shaayar" with "baahar", "laaGhar", "jaakar" or "shaa'ir" with
> "maahir", "zaahir" and"naazir" etc?

Yes Naseer sahib, point made,I really should be more careful. 'baahir' has always bothered me a lot too, but 'vaapis' I can live with. I am not trying to start another discussion on it, trust me! :)

__Zoya

[Zoya]

And now continuing on with the ash'aar:

1. sar-e-niyaaz voh sauda nazar nahiiN aata
voh jaisa pehle tha, vaisa nazar nahiiN aata

voh raat thii to basar ho gayi bahr suurat
agar yeh din hai to kaTta nazar nahiiN aata

rukuuN to Hajla-e-manzil pukaarta hai mujhe
qadam baRhaauuN to rasta nazar nahiiN aata

2. ajab ik mojezah us daur meiN dekha k pehlu se
yad-e-baiza nikalna tha, magar qaasah nikal aaya

‘Najeeb’ ik vehm tha do chaar din ka saath hai lekin
tire gham se to saari umr ka rishta nikal aaya

Najeeb Ahmed

__Zoya

[BGM]

:MoHsin: ko kuChh to Hadd-e-sitam kaa suraaGh de
kab tak raqam karuuN maiN tiri mehrbaaniyaaN

=================================================

[Naseer]

Zoya SaaHibah, in the second couplet I think there is a typo. You
probably meant to write ba-har suurat.

In the third one, is it "Hajala(h)" or "Hajla(h)"? And in the fourth
one did you mean to write "kaasah" or am I misreading the shi'r?

Thank you for the ash'aar.

[Naseer]

On Jun 21, 6:18 pm, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yes Naseer sahib, point made,I really should be more careful. 'baahir' has always bothered me a lot too, but 'vaapis' I can live with. I am not trying to start another discussion on it, trust me! :)
>
> __Zoya

Can you really live with "vaapis"? Would you say "pas-maandah" or "pis-
maandah"? There is no harm in having the odd discussion sandwiched in
between your gems.

Naseer

[BGM]

Naseer saahab always like sandwiches! :)

==========================================================

[Vijay]

On Jun 19, 6:42 pm, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Zoya shiba has posted some asha'ar by a 'new' poet; I thought I will
post something from an 18th century poet; mushafii. I just marvel at
his use of some qawaafii in the following asha'ar:

bhalaa durustii-e-aizaa-e-pair kyaa hove
ki jaise rassii se TuuTaa kivaaR baaNdh diia

chane se bhun'te haiN (wah wah) aaNkhoN meN roz-o-shab aaNsuu
tap-e-firaaq ne mizhgaaN se bhaaR baaNdh diia

chubhe haiN Khaar-e-muGiilaaN se dil meN voh mizhgaaN
yih zor-e-ishaq ne daaman se jhaaR baaNdh diia

dil apna halqa-e-ulfat men mushafii maiN ne
kisii kii zulf kii zaNjiir taaR baaNdh diia

And some help needed with this one she'r. I am posting it verbatim but
haven't a clue what the first misra means:

daraKhat (?-e-) gul se ?kadiivar ne aah phir khaTkaa
kal aashiiana-e-bulbul ujaaR baaNdh diia

Vijay

[Afzal A. Khan]

Zoya Saheba,

Thank you for starting this thread afresh. Some friends have
already made their comments on certain wrong spellings and/or
pronunciation. The point about "shaayar" is well-taken. You
are dealing with (i.e. posting) Urdu poetry. It is neither
hindi nor Punjabi. Mr. Najeeb Ahmed may be from Lahore, but
his poetry is certainly in Urdu, not in Punjabi. And, anybody
(familiar with or writing about Urdu poetry) ought to know that
the word is "shaa'ir".

And let us not drag the expression "ahl-e-zabaan" in the
current discussion. There have been enough threads about
it in the past.

But, since people are talking about mispronunciation and wrong
spellings etc., I am surprised that the following (taken from
your introductory sentences) have escaped notice :

silisila = silsila (This seems to be a typo). But twice ?
ghaleban = Preferably, this should be "GHaaliban".

The idea is not nit-picking, but to ensure accuracy/correctness
as far as possible. All of us are prone to commit mistakes.
As you rightly said, it is an on-going learning process.


With due respect to Mr. Najeeb Ahmed, this doesn't seem to be
outstanding poetry. Just my opinion. An expression like "gale
paRi" seems quite inappropriate here. The first sher (item # 2)
may well be a matla'. Please check it up. If so, the last word
may be "haiN". In the second sher, there doesn't seem to be any
pertinent linkage between the first and second misra's.

"KHala men utar jaana", IMHO, is not faseeh usage.

If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
the word "saaNs" ? AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?

# 6 : Usually, we write "maaN'ga" or "maaN'gi" as one word.

# 7 : The idea is quite trite, I think.



Afzal

[Vijay]

On Jun 21, 11:01 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:

>
>       If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
>       the word "saaNs" ?  AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?
>

.
>
>      Afzal

Afzal sahib, aadaab. Hope you are well.

Although your question is directed to Zoya sahiba, as I am one of the
'phailta relates to sehra' group, and as I happen to be in front of my
laptop, I thought I will offer my take (which may or may not agree
with others).

Firstly, the word 'saaNs' here is more of a metaphor for 'step' I
believe. i.e. WIth every saaNs ----> with each step.

Secondly, sehra navardii is not just the fate of the 'aashiq', it is
also a dread. What the post is feeling in his 'veins' and his
'legs' (I am assuming 'pai' here means feet) is the dread of the ever
increasing expanse (in his mind) of the sehra that he is heading
towards with each 'saaNs'/'step' but that is not even anywhere near
his path yet. Poet is feeling the (dread of the) expanse in his veins/
legs.

Now that you are here, could you please help with the mushafii misra I
am having difficulty with? I am not sure if there is any 'izaafat'
between 'daraKhat' and 'gul' and also not very sure of 'kadiivar' or
'kadevar'. It is spelt 'kaaf' 'daal' 'ye with two dots' 'vow' 're'.
Will appreciate any help with the general meaning of the first misra,
or the whole she'r.

Best regards,

Vijay

[Zoya]

On Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:43:17 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya SaaHibah, in the second couplet I think there is a typo. You
> probably meant to write ba-har suurat.

Yes, I did not want to write 'bahar' because I was afraid it could be confused with 'bahaar' potentially, what you suggest is much better.

>
> In the third one, is it "Hajala(h)" or "Hajla(h)"?

Naseer sahib, this word was new to me, I had to actually pick up my Urdu to English dictionary to get the meaning 'the bridal chamber/bed', if I remember correctly. I am not sure how it should be written in Roman, I definitely need help from you (or Afzal sahib) on this one.

>And in the fourth one did you mean to write "kaasah" or am I misreading the shi'r?

This is an honest typo, I know it is 'kaasah'.

Thanks a lot for the corrections. I wish I could go back and edit the ash'aar. Does anyone know if the new version of Google Groups has any feature that allows us to edit our own previous posts?

>
> Thank you for the ash'aar.

You are most welcome.

__Zoya

[Zoya]

On Thursday, June 21, 2012 4:12:05 PM UTC-5, Vijay wrote:
>
> Zoya shiba has posted some asha'ar by a 'new' poet; I thought I will
> post something from an 18th century poet; mushafii.

> Vijay

Thank you Vijay sahib. The contrast between classical and contemporary Urdu poetry is always very interesting. I can see how this topic can lead to another lively discussion on Alup, perhaps a future thread?!

__Zoya

[BGM]

"Simaab" kis ne arsh se aavaaz dee mujhe
keh do kih intezaar kare, aa rahaa huuN maiN!

=============================================

[Zoya]

On Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:01:15 PM UTC-5, Afzal A. Khan wrote:
>
> Zoya Saheba,
>
> Thank you for starting this thread afresh.

Afzal sahib, :)

It is so good to see you in this thread. I hope all is well with you. I am so glad you took the time to post your comments.

> Some friends have already made their comments on certain wrong spellings > and/or
> pronunciation. The point about "shaayar" is well-taken. You
> are dealing with (i.e. posting) Urdu poetry. It is neither
> hindi nor Punjabi. Mr. Najeeb Ahmed may be from Lahore, but
> his poetry is certainly in Urdu, not in Punjabi. And, anybody
> (familiar with or writing about Urdu poetry) ought to know that
> the word is "shaa'ir".

I agree. I should be more careful about writing this word in future.

>
> And let us not drag the expression "ahl-e-zabaan" in the
> current discussion. There have been enough threads about
> it in the past.

Let us not. But I have to confess those Majaaz/Josh/Sahar literary jokes were indeed a lot of fun, and I still love to repeat them among my friends every chance I get. :)

>
> But, since people are talking about mispronunciation and wrong
> spellings etc., I am surprised that the following (taken from
> your introductory sentences) have escaped notice :
>
> silisila = silsila (This seems to be a typo). But twice ?

I suspect this is Microsoft Word, it does such annoying auto corrections. I try my best to catch these after typing, but sometimes miss them.

> ghaleban = Preferably, this should be "GHaaliban".

Afzal sahib, I am never sure about such words. Now that I have your attention, please settle this issue for me. I always pause over intezaar/intizaar and usually go with intezaar. Shold I switch?

And did you notice how I wrote 'intshar'? I really thought about it and could not decide between inteshaar/intishaar. Would you prefer intishaar?

>
> The idea is not nit-picking, but to ensure accuracy/correctness
> as far as possible. All of us are prone to commit mistakes.
> As you rightly said, it is an on-going learning process.
>
>
> With due respect to Mr. Najeeb Ahmed, this doesn't seem to be
> outstanding poetry. Just my opinion. An expression like "gale
> paRi" seems quite inappropriate here.

Honestly, I find this kind of appealing. For some reason I have always liked that stanza in that old Asha Bhonsle song:
"paR gayi janaab maiN to aap ke gale, ab to nibhaaye baghair na chale!"

I like that attitude as a woman, saying you have no choice but!! :)

The first sher (item # 2)
> may well be a matla'. Please check it up. If so, the last word
> may be "haiN". In the second sher, there doesn't seem to be any
> pertinent linkage between the first and second misra's.

It is indeed a matla, a definitive typo here.

>
> "KHala men utar jaana", IMHO, is not faseeh usage.

I respect your expert opinion on this.

>
> If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
> the word "saaNs" ? AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?

I defer to Vijay sahib's explanation on this.

>
> # 6 : Usually, we write "maaN'ga" or "maaN'gi" as one word.

Sure, I sometimes write maaN~gi etc., sometimes I just leave a space, not used to insert ' in such words. That's strictly me, not sure what the norm is.

>
> # 7 : The idea is quite trite, I think.

trite? hmmmm....well, perhaps but still....

>
> Afzal

Best regards,

__Zoya

[Miir]

On Jun 21, 3:58 pm, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 21, 11:01 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >       If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
> >       the word "saaNs" ?  AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?
>
> .
>
> >      Afzal
>
> Afzal sahib, aadaab. Hope you are well.
>
> Although your question is directed to Zoya sahiba, as I am one of the
> 'phailta relates to sehra' group, and as I happen to be in front of my
> laptop, I thought I will offer my take (which may or may not agree
> with others).
>
> Firstly, the word 'saaNs' here is more of a metaphor for 'step' I
> believe. i.e. WIth every saaNs ----> with each step.
>
> Secondly, sehra navardii is not just the fate of the 'aashiq', it is
> also a dread. What the post is feeling in his 'veins' and his
> 'legs' (I am assuming 'pai' here means feet) is the dread of the ever

pathaa not leg.

[Miir]

On Jun 21, 10:26 am, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And now continuing on with the ash'aar:
>
> 1. sar-e-niyaaz voh sauda nazar nahiiN aata
>    voh jaisa pehle tha, vaisa nazar nahiiN aata
>

sar e baybaal voh achchaa nazar nahiN aata
voh jaisa pehle tha vaisa nazar nahin aata

[Miir]

Iss ko iss terhaaN daikh saktay hain

har saans rag-o-pai meiN ‘Najeeb’, phailtaa jaata hai ek sehra jo
abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha.

Agar iss ko dusree tarhaN liyaa ja'aay
phailtaa jaata hai har saans rag-o-pai meiN ‘Najeeb’. ek sehra jo
abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha.

to dusraa jumlaa adhooraa hai.

>       # 6 : Usually, we write "maaN'ga" or "maaN'gi" as one word.
>
>       # 7 : The idea is quite trite, I think.
>

>      Afzal- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Miir]

On Jun 21, 3:01 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:

Koee muzaaika(h) nahiN. Zameen pay utar saktay hain, sumandar main
utar saktay, to khalaa main bhi utar ja'iyay. ista'aara(h) kay baghair
to zubaan main ijtahaad kaa fuqdaan ho ja'ay gaa.

muslan
qos e qazah kay rang fizaa main utar ga'ay

yaa
hum Gham maiN Gham hum main utar ga'ay

>       If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
>       the word "saaNs" ?  AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?
>
>       # 6 : Usually, we write "maaN'ga" or "maaN'gi" as one word.
>
>       # 7 : The idea is quite trite, I think.
>

[BGM]

"sune jaate nah thay tum se, mire din-raat ke shikwe
kafan sarkaa'o, meri be-jubaani dekhte jaa'o"

===========================================

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 6/21/2012 9:14 PM, Zoya wrote:

> On Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:01:15 PM UTC-5, Afzal A. Khan wrote:
>>
>> Zoya Saheba,
>>
>> Thank you for starting this thread afresh.
>
> Afzal sahib, :)
>
> It is so good to see you in this thread. I hope all is well with you. I am so glad you took the time to post your comments.

>> ghaleban = Preferably, this should be "GHaaliban".
>
> Afzal sahib, I am never sure about such words. Now that I have your attention, please settle this issue for me. I always pause over intezaar/intizaar and usually go with intezaar. Shold I switch?
>
> And did you notice how I wrote 'intshar'? I really thought about it and could not decide between inteshaar/intishaar. Would you prefer intishaar?

I would prefer to write these words as "intezaar" and "inteshaar".

>> With due respect to Mr. Najeeb Ahmed, this doesn't seem to be
>> outstanding poetry. Just my opinion. An expression like "gale
>> paRi" seems quite inappropriate here.
>
> Honestly, I find this kind of appealing. For some reason I have always liked that stanza in that old Asha Bhonsle song:
> "paR gayi janaab maiN to aap ke gale, ab to nibhaaye baghair na chale!"

As you may perhaps be aware, I have been extremely fond of
Indian film music of the earlier era. Also, I have been
writing about it in the other Newsgroup RMIM for a number
of years. I too love this OPN song from "Saawan Ki GhaTa".
And, BTW, I have nothing against the expression "gale paRna"
or its use in Urdu poetry either. But my point is this :

"Gale paRna/paRjaana" is a process of imposition. The
'recipient' or the affected person (i.e. Manoj Kumar, or the
the poet in this case) does not expect such imposition and,
in most cases, may not even welcome it. The action of "gale
paRna" is a sort of 'suo motu' process --- the person at the
receiving end is not a participant. On the other hand, the
process of remembering someone ('yaad karna') is one that is
initiated and acted upon by this other person (the poet, in
this case). Let us read the sher :

Ik teri yaad gale aise paRi hai k ‘Najeeb’
Aaj ka kaam bhi ham kal pe uThha rakhte haiN

"Yaad" or (the beloved's) memory is the result of a conscious
act indulged in by the lover/poet. "Yaad" is not a separate
entity by itself that can wrap itself around the poet's neck
all by itself. This is confirmed by the second misra' too,
where the poet postpones or defers other activities, as he
is so overcome by his "mehboob's" memory/memories. It was
only in this context that I had expressed my unhappiness at
the use of "gale paRna". In Faarsi, there is a saying :

KHud karda(h) ra 'ilaaj-e neest

>> "KHala men utar jaana", IMHO, is not faseeh usage.
>
> I respect your expert opinion on this.
>
>>
>> If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
>> the word "saaNs" ? AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?
>
> I defer to Vijay sahib's explanation on this.

I propose to deal with this issue in a separate response to
Vijay Saheb.

>>
>> # 7 : The idea is quite trite, I think.
>
> trite? hmmmm....well, perhaps but still....

My point was that the idea has been used in Urdu poetry a
trillion times. There is neither "jiddat-e-ada" nor
"nudrat-e-taKHayyul". Why talk about a 'pamaal' and
'farsooda' subject ?




Afzal
>
>>
>> Afzal
>
> Best regards,
>
> __Zoya
>

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 6/21/2012 5:58 PM, Vijay wrote:
> On Jun 21, 11:01 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> If "phailta" relates to "sehra", how can one explain the use of
>> the word "saaNs" ? AaKHir "rag-o-pai" men kya phelta jaata hai ?
>>
> .
>>
>> Afzal
>
> Afzal sahib, aadaab. Hope you are well.
>
> Although your question is directed to Zoya sahiba, as I am one of the
> 'phailta relates to sehra' group, and as I happen to be in front of my
> laptop, I thought I will offer my take (which may or may not agree
> with others).
>
> Firstly, the word 'saaNs' here is more of a metaphor for 'step' I
> believe. i.e. WIth every saaNs ----> with each step.
>
> Secondly, sehra navardii is not just the fate of the 'aashiq', it is
> also a dread. What the post is feeling in his 'veins' and his
> 'legs' (I am assuming 'pai' here means feet) is the dread of the ever
> increasing expanse (in his mind) of the sehra that he is heading
> towards with each 'saaNs'/'step' but that is not even anywhere near
> his path yet. Poet is feeling the (dread of the) expanse in his veins/
> legs.

> Best regards,
>
> Vijay




Vijay Saheb,


Phailtaa jaata hai har saans rag-o-pai meiN ‘Najeeb’
Ek sehra jo abhi raah meiN aaya bhii na tha


I think the sense of the poet is quite clear and I agree
with your take about both these points, i.e. "dread" and
"step" (qadam). But the poet has used the word "saaNs"
without any connective word like "men" etc. What he
seems to suggest is something more akin to "moment". That is
to say, "time" instead of "space". Just my opinion. And that
can be taken care of by using some word like "lahza" or "lam'ha" :

Phailtaa jaata hai har lahza rag-o-pai men Najeeb
Ek sehra jo abhi raah men aaya bhi na tha

Of course, we don't have any right to re-write or re-compose
the poet's sher.

Someone made a rather facetious comment that (maybe) the
poet himself "phailta ja raha hai" ! I must admit that
the sher's "bunat" is such that a reader can genuinely
feel the same way.

I think the poet himself is responsible for this "naqs"
where the reader can reach such ridiculous interpretations :

(a) "SaaNs" phailta jaata hai
(b) "Najeeb" phailta jaata hai

Another point here is the "time element". The first misra'
talks of an on-going process, i.e present tense. The second
misra' uses the word "tha" which signifies past tense. Your
interpretation fits much better with the following rendition :

Phailta jaata hai har saaNs rag-o-pai men Najeeb
Ek sehra jo abhi raah men aaya bhi naheeN


As I said, I am not much impressed by such poetry. By way
of contrast, here is a sher by Ghalib :

Koi veeraani si veeraani hai
Dasht ko dekh ke ghar yaad aaya

It is, of course, unfair to compare the poet to Ghalib.


Afzal

[Zoya]

Friends,

A nazm probably does not belong in a thread titled 'pasandiidah ash'aar', but before I get away from Najeeb Ahmed's poetry, I feel compelled to post this short nazm here. In fact, this nazm is the sole reason I started exploring other works of this poet.

I find this nazm very aptly titled, simply amazing and rather unexpectedly thought provoking.

The climax is in the last line, it is so stark, in your face stark, can't shake it off. It jolts the reader and makes this nazm memorable, in an uncomfortable way perhaps, but memorable nonetheless.

You may have to read it more than once to get the full effect.

‘kahaani’

safed collar pe surKh hoNToN kii sabz mohreN lagi huii haiN
hinaai poreN siyaah baaloN meiN lams ban ke sarak rahii thiiN
gulaab saaNseN nafas nafas meiN basi huii thiiN
magar voh lauTi
to us kii aaNkhoN meiN ajnabiyat ke zard moti chamak rahe the
Khamosh lehje meiN sard sh’ole dehak rahe the
daraaz palkoN kii vus’atoN meiN
gaye dinoN kii har ek sa’at bikhar chuki thi
maiN jii raha tha, voh mar chuki thi

Najeeb Ahmed

___Zoya

[BGM]

On Friday, June 22, 2012 11:37:47 AM UTC-4, Zoya wrote:
quoted text

------------------------------------------------------
Zoya saahibaa, aadaab!

aap ki pesh-kardah yeh nazm maiN ne meHfil-e-suKhan par paRhii thii aur mujhe pasand aa'ii thii. Us par kuChh likhne ko soch hi rahaa thaa, magar, "context" ko puurii taraH samajh nahiiN paayaa thaa is liye sochaa kih,

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

AchChhaa hu'aa aap ne isay yahaaN chadspaan kar diyaa. YahaaN is par kuChh intellectual discussion, chal jaaye aise imkaan haiN.

Khair-andesh

~B.G.

=================================================================

[Naseer]

I don't know about "intellectual" discussion, but this is how I
understand the poem.

The two lovers have had a meeting, the result of which is physically
apparent on the lover's white collar. He is thinking about the time
spent with her, when she was running her Hinaa-painted hands through
his black hair and so on and so forth. Something has now happened
where he can not continue with this relationship. She finds out and
returns to him absolutely devastated and ruined. Yet he has still
managed to "survive" through this turmoil and goes on living his life
whilst it is the end of her's. In the words of Iftikhar Arif, where at
least he (Arif) is ashamed, Najeeb's lover does not even show that
emotion.

tujh se bichhaR kar zindah haiN
jaan bahut sharmindah haiN!

[Naseer]

On Jun 22, 4:37 pm, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A nazm probably does not belong in a thread titled 'pasandiidah ash'aar', but before I get away from Najeeb Ahmed's poetry, I feel compelled to post this short nazm here. In fact, this nazm is the sole reason I started exploring other works of this poet.

Why not? Why can not a nazm shi'r be "pasandiidah"? The title of your
thread does not say "pasandiidah ash'aar-GhazaloN se maaKhuuz".

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Friday, June 22, 2012 9:50:59 AM UTC-5, Afzal A. Khan wrote:

> But my point is this :
>
> "Gale paRna/paRjaana" is a process of imposition. The
> 'recipient' or the affected person (i.e. Manoj Kumar, or the
> the poet in this case) does not expect such imposition and,
> in most cases, may not even welcome it. The action of "gale
> paRna" is a sort of 'suo motu' process --- the person at the
> receiving end is not a participant. On the other hand, the
> process of remembering someone ('yaad karna') is one that is
> initiated and acted upon by this other person (the poet, in
> this case).

> "Yaad" or (the beloved's) memory is the result of a conscious
> act indulged in by the lover/poet. "Yaad" is not a separate
> entity by itself that can wrap itself around the poet's neck
> all by itself.
>

> Afzal

Afzal sahib,

I beg to differ here, in my opinion 'yaad karna' is NOT always a conscious decision that a person 'chooses' to 'indulge in'.
Believe me, there are times when 'yaad' CAN indeed become a separate entity by itself that can wrap itself around a person's neck! It can have a sort of paralyzing effect(as the poet is expressing here), and all useful work gets postponed, at least temporarily!

Thanks for the detailed reply and clearing up some more iteration doubts for me, I really appreciate it.

__Zoya

[Miir]

Yaad e maazi 'azaab hai yaarab
Cheen lay mujh say haafiza maira

> > __Zoya- Hide quoted text -

[vij...@gmail.com]

Naseer sahib, I think Zoya sahiba's unease was not with 'pasandiidah', but with 'asha'r'.

Regards,

Vijay

[Naseer]

Please do elaborate, Vijay SaaHib. I do not quite follow.

Naseer

[vij...@gmail.com]

So far as I know, Naseer sahib, the stanza of a metered naz'm is called a 'baNd', not a 'she'r'.

Vijay

[Vijay]

I agree with all your points Afzal sahib, but I agree most with your
point about the ibhaam in the tenses between first and second misra of
the she'r; this had somehow eluded me. And if I can disagree with Zoya
sahiba a bit (doesn't happen very often I must say); the last she'r is
indeed quite mediocre.

Having said this, although 'saaNs' the way it has been used, does seem
to connote 'time', I do feel that in theory one could use both 'saaNs'
and 'qadam' without a connective word to mean 'with each', i.e.
'space'. For example:

main jis raah pe chal raha thaa, wahhaN har qadam Khatra thaa.

Best regards,

Vijay

[Zoya]

On Friday, June 22, 2012 7:41:23 PM UTC-5, BGM wrote:

> ------------------------------------------------------
> Zoya saahibaa, aadaab!
>
> aap ki pesh-kardah yeh nazm maiN ne meHfil-e-suKhan par paRhii thii aur mujhe pasand aa'ii thii. Us par kuChh likhne ko soch hi rahaa thaa, magar, "context" ko puurii taraH samajh nahiiN paayaa
>

> AchChhaa hu'aa aap ne isay yahaaN chadspaan kar diyaa. YahaaN is par kuChh intellectual discussion, chal jaaye aise imkaan haiN.
>

> ~B.G.
>

nazm pasand farmaane ka shukriyah BGM sahib.

As BK sahib has remarked in MeS, part of the beauty is in the word play here. As far as the context is concerned, in my opinion, it is best left to the individual imagination in a poem like this one.

Personally, I wouldn't like to dissect it too much, doing so may take away some of the initial impact it made on me.

Naseer sahib has already posted his understanding of this poem, hope that helps.

____Zoya

[Zoya]

On Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:31:22 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> So far as I know, Naseer sahib, the stanza of a metered naz'm is called a 'baNd', not a 'she'r'.
>
> Vijay

Yes Naseer sahib, Vijay sahib is right on target here.

Since the subject line says "ashaa'r" I was a bit unsure if a nazm (even a short one) actually fits under this umbrella. And this being Alup, 'one' can't be too careful about such little details! :)

__Zoya

[Vijay]

As our prime minister is wont to say these days, "I am relaxed about
it", Zoya sahiba:-)

Vijay

[Zoya]

On Saturday, June 23, 2012 3:10:52 PM UTC-5, Vijay wrote:

> >           Phailtaa jaata hai har lahza rag-o-pai men Najeeb
> >           Ek sehra jo abhi raah men aaya bhi na tha
> >

> I agree with all your points Afzal sahib, but I agree most with your
> point about the ibhaam in the tenses between first and second misra of
> the she'r; this had somehow eluded me.

> Vijay

Afzal sahib/Vijay sahib,

I did notice the 'ibhaam' in the tenses when I read/typed this sh'er, and would like to point out that the past tense in the second misra was non negotiable due to the radiif constraint in this ghazal. The radiif being: 'bhi na tha'.

A few years back, I remember having such a discussion with RK sahib and/or Zaf sahib about a sh'er in one of my old ghazals. Yes, the general consensus is that it should be avoided if possible, but we can easily find many examples where this does occurs due to various reasons, one being what I just mentioned.

___Zoya

[Vijay]

On Jun 22, 4:37 pm, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

As you say, it is quite a dramatic finsih, Zoya sahiba. My take on
this is similar to Naseer sahib's. And I find the last line 'emotive',
but quite possibly in ways other than you may have felt.

After she returns, in the eyes of the 'male' poet, she has been
tainted, because she has had physical relations (through marriage or
otherwise,) with another. In this light, calling himself
'ziNda' (still holding to high morals) and her 'mar chukii' (lost her
moral grounding) comes across as extremely judgemental, opinionated,
bitter and ungenerous, particularly as the views are expressed from
the point of view of the male character. It will perhaps be more
bearable if 'she' had characterised them thus. Probably because of my
somewhat liberal outlook on life, I see in this naz'm the typical male
double standards of our subcontinental subculture where 'males' are
always passing judgements on women.

Faraaz, in my opinion has captured such complexities of relationship
break ups with greater degree of subtlety, sensitivity and panache.
And of course, as I have stated previously, Faiz's 'raqiib se' is the
'bible' when it comes to describing the impact of a broken
relationship. (And how generously he does it!)

Looking forward to the next posting.


With best regards,

Vijay

[Naseer]

On Jun 23, 9:54 pm, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

That is all fair enough. But a "band" consists of "ash'aar", so I
don't see any problem with the use of word "ash'aar" whether the
"pasandiidah ash'aar" are from various Ghazals or from nazms.

Naseer

[Zoya]

On Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:15:33 AM UTC-5, Miir wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:01:15 PM UTC-5, Afzal A. Khan wrote:

> Yaad e maazi 'azaab hai yaarab
> Cheen lay mujh say haafiza maira

Rahim sahib,

Yes, this oft quoted sh'er is definitely a classic on this subject.

Before I get away from the thought 'yaad kaa gale paRna', I must quote a priceless gem by 'Shakeb Jalali'.

This she'r got etched in my permanent memory the instant I read it years ago, and has since been very high on my list of all-time-favorites. In my opinion, this is as good as it gets on the subject under discussion, it is at a much higher plane than the original sh'er I quoted by N A in this thread.

ik yaad hai k daaman-e-dil ChhoRti nahiiN
ik bel hai k lipTi hui hai shajar ke saath

__Zoya

[vij...@gmail.com]

Naseer sahib, I am relaxed about it and absolutely agree that 'nazm's' or ghazals, let them come!

But for a purist, a ghazal cosists of asha'ar wheras a naz'm does not. If you can a find a naz'm with 'asha'ar', it is most likely a musalsal ghazal. You will note that none of these famous naz'ms, 'raqiib se', 'parcchhaaiiaaN', 'tajmahal' contain a single she'r. In fact, you will be hard pressesd to find any reference in Urdu poetry where you will find a naz'm with "asha'ar". I have gone on a limb here and knowing you, you will most likely go ahead now and do exactly that:-)

With best regards,

Vijay

[vij...@gmail.com]

Beautiful thought and a very good she'r, Zoya sahiba. My favourite on 'yaad', and top of my list by a mile, is the famous qita by Faiz, 'raat yuuN dil meN terii khoii huuii yaad aaii'.

Vijay

[BGM]

On Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:49:35 PM UTC-4, BGM wrote:

> On Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:02:47 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
> > Beautiful thought and a very good she'r, Zoya sahiba. My favourite on 'yaad', and top of my list by a mile, is the famous qita by Faiz, 'raat yuuN dil meN terii khoii huuii yaad aaii'.
> >
> > Vijay

> ------------------------------------------------
> Waa...h! Kyaa hi Khuub-suurat qata'a ki yaad dilaa dee, Vijay saahab!
>
> "raat yuuN dil meN tiri kho'ii hu'i yaad aayii
> jaise veeraane meN chup ke se bahaar aa jaaye,
>
> jaise seHraa'o meN holay se chale baad-e-naseem
> jaise beemaar ko be-wajha qaraar aa jaaye"
>
>
> ===================================================================

[Vijay]

On Jun 24, 5:49 pm, BGM <bgm7...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:02:47 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

> > Beautiful thought and a very good she'r, Zoya sahiba. My favourite on 'yaad', and top of my list by a mile, is the famous qita by Faiz, 'raat yuuN dil meN terii khoii huuii yaad aaii'.
>
> > Vijay
>

> ------------------------------------------------
> Waa...h! Kyaa hi Khuub-suurat qata'a ki yaad dilaa dee, Vijay saahab!
>
> "raat yuuN dil meN tiri kho'ii hu'i yaad aayii
> jaise veeraane meN chup ke se bahaar aa jaaye,
>

> jaise seHraa'o meN holay se chale baad-e-sabaa

> jaise beemaar ko be-wajha qaraar aa jaaye"
>

> =======================================================================

baad-e-naseem, BGM sahib, baad-e-naseem!

[BGM]

baad-e-naseem, indeed!

[BGM]

ee

On Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:54:14 PM UTC-4, Vijay wrote:

m

[vij...@gmail.com]

And 'sehraaoN'

[BGM]

Back to quoting, favorite She'r



Maui-e-balaa meN Duubne waaloN ko kyaa Khabar
saazish meN Khud shareek hai saaHil bhaNvar ke saath


Shakeel Azad. "Shakeel"
=====================================================

[Zoya]

On Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:50:58 AM UTC-5, Vijay wrote:
>
> As you say, it is quite a dramatic finsih, Zoya sahiba. My take on
> this is similar to Naseer sahib's. And I find the last line 'emotive',
> but quite possibly in ways other than you may have felt.
>

> Vijay

Vijay sahib/Naseer sahib,

It is quite interesting for me to read your takes on 'kahaani', and yes, they are quite different from my fundamental understanding of it, perhaps due to my female perspective.

I'd like to point out how the poet uses the present tense in the opening line. Once I finished reading the poem, and then came back to the beginning again, the present tense seemed rather deliberate and changed the entire story for me.

Next, I'll be moving on to another poet that I have been reading recently.

__Zoya

[Vijay Kumar]

Zoya sahiba:

I thought the present tense is used to convey that he has kept the
shirt which has the stamp of her red lips as a momento. So everything
for him is as it was, but of course everything else has changed now.

Will eagerly await your next post.

Vijay

[Miir]

If one of the things that poetry can convey is emotion then it can be
the documentation of an emotion even if the emotion is not noble or
complex.

> Looking forward to the next posting.
>
> With best regards,
>

> Vijay- Hide quoted text -

[Miir]

On Jun 24, 2:50 am, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The lines below say that it is her eyes which fail to acknowledge him.
It is she who is silent (Khamosh lehja(h) is an oxymoron). Is it that
she is silent or speaking mutedly . One wonders if this is an actual
physical death that is referred to.

magar voh lauTi
to us kii aaNkhoN meiN ajnabiyat ke zard moti chamak rahe the
Khamosh lehje meiN sard sh’ole dehak rahe the
daraaz palkoN kii vus’atoN meiN
gaye dinoN kii har ek sa’at bikhar chuki thi
maiN jii raha tha, voh mar chuki thi

> 'ziNda' (still holding to high morals) and her 'mar chukii' (lost her
> moral grounding) comes across as extremely judgemental, opinionated,
> bitter and ungenerous, particularly as the views are expressed from
> the point of view of the male character. It will perhaps be more
> bearable if 'she' had characterised them thus. Probably because of my
> somewhat liberal outlook on life, I see in this naz'm the typical male
> double standards of our subcontinental subculture where 'males' are
> always passing judgements on women.
>
> Faraaz, in my opinion has captured such complexities of relationship
> break ups with greater degree of subtlety, sensitivity and panache.
> And of course, as I have stated previously, Faiz's 'raqiib se' is the
> 'bible' when it comes to describing the impact of a broken
> relationship. (And how generously he does it!)
>
> Looking forward to the next posting.
>
> With best regards,
>

[Miir]

On Jun 23, 3:03 am, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 1:41 am, BGM <bgm7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Friday, June 22, 2012 11:37:47 AM UTC-4, Zoya wrote:
>
> > quoted text
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Zoya saahibaa, aadaab!
>
> > aap ki pesh-kardah yeh nazm maiN ne meHfil-e-suKhan par paRhii thii aur mujhe pasand aa'ii thii. Us par kuChh likhne ko soch hi rahaa thaa, magar, "context" ko puurii taraH samajh nahiiN paayaa  thaa is liye sochaa kih,
>
> > "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

>
> > AchChhaa hu'aa aap ne isay yahaaN chadspaan kar diyaa. YahaaN is par kuChh intellectual discussion, chal jaaye aise imkaan haiN.
>

> > Khair-andesh
>
> > ~B.G.
>
> > =================================================================
>
> I don't know about "intellectual" discussion, but this is how I
> understand the poem.
>
> The two lovers have had a meeting, the result of which is physically
> apparent on the lover's white collar. He is thinking about the time
> spent with her, when she was running her Hinaa-painted hands through
> his black hair and so on and so forth. Something has now happened
> where he can not continue with this relationship. She finds out and
> returns to him absolutely devastated and ruined. Yet he has still

She shows the ajnabiat and sardpan on her return.

> managed to "survive" through this turmoil and goes on living his life
> whilst it is the end of her's. In the words of Iftikhar Arif, where at
> least he (Arif) is ashamed, Najeeb's lover does not even show that
> emotion.
>
> tujh se bichhaR kar zindah haiN
> jaan bahut sharmindah haiN!- Hide quoted text -

[Zoya]

Friends,

A few months ago, I got a chance to spend an afternoon in a coffee house with one of my poet friends, Khushbir Singh Shaad, and another New Delhi based poet Farhat Ehsaas.

Spending quality time with my literary friends is always heavenly for me, and Farhat Ehsaas's poetry came to me as a pleasant surprise. I have since read him some more, and find quite a few of his ash'aar 'quotable', I'll include some of those in this thread.

I'll start with a ghazal which had quite a few asha'ar that I liked:


koii vaadah koii tehriir nahiiN chaahta maiN
chaahiye tuu, tiri jaagir nahiiN chaahta maiN

ruKhsat-e-yaar kii taqriib hai, aaNkhoN se kaho
ulTi siidhi koii taqriir nahiiN chaahta maiN

veHshato! dasht kii sarHad pe nigehbaan raho
duur tak koii bhii t’amiir nahiiN chahhta maiN

haal puuChhuuN jo kisi ka to voh rone lag jaaye
lafz meiN aisii bhii tasiir nahiiN chaahta maiN

is kaRi dhuup meiN milna hai to aa, mil mujh se
tujh ko raatoN meiN baghal_giir nahiiN chaahta maiN

mujh ko is baar saliiqe se junuuN karna hai
paaoN meiN phir vahii zaNjiir nahiiN chaahta maiN


Farhat Ehsaas

___Zoya

To be continued.......

[Afzal A. Khan]

For me, this 'poem' doesn't do much. However, I am intrigued
by the use of the expression "zard moti". What do these words
try to convey ?

At the end, the poet says : "woh mar chuki thi". Probably, he
means it metaphorically. But, if we take this literally, does
he mean that she had turned into a zombie ? Often, a dead
person or a ghost/chuRail etc. is depicted with yellow opaque
eyes, staring blankly.


Afzal

[BGM]

On the other hand,
could that have been,

"sard " motii'
and "zard " sho'lay??

........Just wondering.

======================================================

[Miir]

Perhaps it denotes the beauty (physical) of the eyes without their
power to see.

The first line in a similar vein states surKh hoNtoN pe sabz mohren.
It is rather extensive to state the color of lips and lipstick as
well. Perhaps sabz here is in it's other meaning of taaza(h). That is
the mohar is new (perhaps from the dead lips) and hence the present
tense.

>          At the end, the poet says : "woh mar chuki thi".  Probably, he
>          means it metaphorically.  But, if we take this literally, does
>          he mean that she had turned into a zombie ?  Often, a dead
>          person or a ghost/chuRail etc. is depicted with yellow opaque
>          eyes, staring blankly.
>

:)
He interprets her symptoms (of eyes not acknowledging and either no
words or very cold words) as death

>          Afzal- Hide quoted text -

[Miir]

correction: surKh hoNtoN kii sabz mhren.

> It is rather extensive to state the color of lips and lipstick as
> well. Perhaps sabz here is in it's other meaning of taaza(h). That is
> the mohar is new (perhaps from the dead lips) and hence the present
> tense.
>
> >          At the end, the poet says : "woh mar chuki thi".  Probably, he
> >          means it metaphorically.  But, if we take this literally, does
> >          he mean that she had turned into a zombie ?  Often, a dead
> >          person or a ghost/chuRail etc. is depicted with yellow opaque
> >          eyes, staring blankly.
>
> :)
> He interprets her symptoms (of eyes not acknowledging and either no
> words or very cold words) as death
>
>
>
> >          Afzal- Hide quoted text -
>

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Naseer]

On Jun 22, 3:14 am, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Afzal sahib, I am never sure about such words. Now that I have your attention, please settle this issue for me. I always pause over intezaar/intizaar and usually go with intezaar. Shold I switch?
>
> And did you notice how I wrote 'intshar'? I really thought about it and could not decide between inteshaar/intishaar. Would you prefer intishaar?

I know Afzal Sahib has already replied to your query but it all
depends if, through Roman transcription, you wish to be faithful to
the Urdu system of writing or to any other way you might be used to,
e.g va'dah (Urdu system) or vaadah/vaadaa (some other system). The
zabar, zer and pesh can be depicted by a/i/u respectively and their
longer versions as aa/ii/uu. The majhuul vowels can be e (as in ek)
and o (as in mor). The diphthongs as ai (Ghair) and au (aur). And
intishaar as intishaar!:-) (Alif has a zer and so does the te). This
is no rocket science as you know and a brainy person like you who is
able to follow the intricacies of vazn should have no problem
whatsoever.

Naseer

PS I am of course fully aware that pronunciation wise "inteshaar"
makes more sense but pronunciations varies from region to region and
for this reason I personally thinks it makes more sense to stick to
Urdu as it is written.

[Naseer]

Vijay Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.

I of course understand that as far as a Ghazal goes a "shi'r" is a
couplet and one line of this couplet is a "musra'". But, I was
thinking in not so narrow (and strict) terms. One can and does talk
about a single line as a shi'r too. If one just said, "aur bhii dukh
haiN zamaane meN muHabbat ke sivaa", this would be a shi'r as far as
I am concerned. Jogi, a very long nazm consists of ash'aar where I
take ash'aar to be plural of shi'r and not always thinking of shi'r as
a two liner.

Above aside, a masnavii consists of two ash'aar as the basic unit, a
rubaa'ii four ash'aar, a muKhammas five and a musaddas six. So, a few
"pasandiidah ash'aar" from me.

vuh nabiyoN meN raHmat laqab paane vaalaa
muraadeN GhariiboN kii bar laane vaalaa
musiibat meN GhairoN ke kaam aane vaalaa
vuh apne paraa'e kaa Gham khaane vaalaa
faqiiroN kaa maljaa za'iifoN kaa maavaa
yatiimoN kaa vaalii GhulaamoN kaa maulaa

Hali

Naseer

[Naseer]

On Jun 22, 3:14 am, Zoya <zbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> And did you notice how I wrote 'intshar'? I really thought about it and could not decide between inteshaar/intishaar. Would you prefer intishaar?
>

Would n't "intshar" have thrown the shi'r off its vazn? I know Vijay
Sahib is a very strict "weight-watcher". I am surprised he did n't
blow his whistle (only of course if it does affect the vazn)!

Naseer

[Vijay]

You are quite correct Naseer sahib; 'intshar' or even 'intshaar' (in the meter of izhaar, say) will be out of meter. I didn't comment as I knew what the word was and thought that Zoya sahiba has missed a vowel by accident.

On the discussion around what constitutes a she'r, we are in total disagreement, so let's call a truce:-)

Regards,

Vijay

[Zoya]

Continuing with F E poetry:

1. dhiire dhiire dar-o-diivaar baRe hone lage
phir use yaad na karne ke zamaane aaye

2. paiker-e-aql! tire hosh Thhikaane lag jaayeN
tere piiChhe bhii jo ham jaise divaane lag jaayeN

sab ke jaisii na bana zulf k ham saadah nigaah
tere dhoke meiN kisi aur ke shaane lag jaayeN!

3. badan ko jaana hai pehli baar aaj ruuH ki mehfil-e-tarab meiN
to aisaa lagta hai jaise koii navaab tayyaar ho raha hai

is imtihaaN ke savaal aate nahiiN nisaaboN ke maktaboN se
ajiib aashiq hai yeh jo paRh kar kitaab tayyaar ho raha hai!

4. sukhaa liiN sab ne hii aaNkheN hava-e-zindagi se
yahaaN ab bhii vahi ronaa rulaana chal raha hai

vahi hai ishq ka daftar, vahi us ke mulaazim
vahi andaaz us ka saHibaana chal raha hai!


Farhat Ehsaas

[Zoya]

Some more:


1. hijr meiN ham tiri imdaad nahiiN kar sakte
shisha-e-dil, tujhe faulaad nahiiN kar sakte

iKhtiyaraat haiN jamhuuriyat-e-ishq ko sab
haaN, magar ham ise azaad nahiiN kar sakte

2. dil ne imdaad kabhi hasb-e-zaruurat nahiiN dii
shehr meiN aql na dii, dasht meiN veHshat nahiiN dii

3. apne but_Khaane meiN karne de mujhe raqs-e-vajuud
varna be_faayda kaafir na bana rehne de

4. hota hai jis ke dil meiN ishq, sochta vochta kuChh nahiiN
karte ho mujh se kis liye itne savaal baar baar

5. ab TuuT raha hai miri hasti ka tassavur
is vaqt mujhe tujh se sarokaar bahut hai!

6. mujh se saaHil ki muhabbat Chhin le
mere ghar ke biich ik naddi nikaal

maiN samandar kii tahoN meiN qaid huuN
mere andar se koii kashti nikaal

7. maiN rona chaahta huuN, Khuub rona chaahta huuN
aur us ke ba’ad gehri niiNd sona chaahta huuN

Farhat Ehsaas

___Zoya

[nimish pandya]

जिंदगी नाकामियों की इक मुसलसल दास्ताँ
मौत क्या है जिंदगी की दास्ताँ का खात्मा...

~त्रिलोकचंद महरूम

[Anil Kala]

jo tu samjhata naakaamiyan haiN
darasl woh to kaamyaabiyaan haiN

Mukhtalif

[nimish pandya]

धरती ते लहू बसया कबरां पैआं चोण
प्रीत दिआं शहज़ादियां अज विच मज़ारां रोण
~ अमृता प्रीतम

[BGM]

dekho to chasm-e-yaar ki jaaduu-nigaahiyaaN
Be-hosh Ik nazar meN hu'ii anjuman tamaam!

========================================

[bado...@gmail.com]

Khaatir se yaa lihaaz se maiN maan to gayaa
jhuuThi qasam se aap ka imaan to gayaa

- Mirza Daag Dehalvi

[nimish pandya]

थे बहुत बेदर्द लम्हें ख़त्म-ए-दर्द-ए-इश्क़ के
थीं बहुत बेमहर सुबहें मेहरबाँ रातों के बाद

~फैज़ अहमद फैज़

[BGM]

un se jo kahne gaye thay, "Faiz", jaaN sadaqaa kiye
an-kahii hii reh gayii woh baat, sab baatoN ke ba'ad!

===========================================

[Naseer]

Nimish Pandya jii aadaab 'arz hai.

It has been the tradition in this Newsgroup to transliterate Urdu and
Devanagri into Roman. Would you be kind enough to do the honour so
that those of our friends who can not read the Devanagri script may
benefit from your input.

Naseer

[Anil Kala]

> ~फैज़ अहमद फैज़
>
> un se jo kahne gaye thay, "Faiz", jaaN sadaqaa kiye
> an-kahii hii reh gayii woh baat, sab baatoN ke ba'ad!
>
> ===========================================

Ghazab kiya tere waade pe aitbaar kiyaa
tamaam raat qayaamat ka intezaar kiyaa

Mirza DaaG Dehalvi

[Anil Kala]

>
> Ghazab kiya tere waade pe aitbaar kiyaa
> tamaam raat qayaamat ka intezaar kiyaa
>
> Mirza DaaG Dehalvi

is sadi se be-haya koi sadi pahle na thi
is qadar be-aab aankhoN ki nadi pahle na thi

Noor Mohammad Noor

[BGM]

"kachche ghaRay ne jeet lee naddii chaRhii hu`ii
mazbuut kashtiyoN ko kinaaraa nahiiN milaa"

======================================================

[v]

i read this a few days back on this forum. liked it a lot

aab-e-zam-zam dost laae hai.n abas
ham jo piite hai.n voh paani aur hai

ahmad faraaz

[BGM]

"woh jo raaste thay wafaa ke thay, yeh jo manzileN haiN sazaa ki haiN
mira ham-safar ko'ii aur thaa, mira ham-nasheeN ko'ii aur hai"

=======================================================

[Anil Kala]

\kachche ghaRay ne jeet lee naddii chaRhii hu`ii
|mazbuut kashtiyoN ko kinaaraa nahiiN milaa&quot;

I think the reference is to Sohni Mahiwal love story. Wasn't in the story 'kachcha GhaRa' collapsed, it was the river that won?

[v]

On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:29:25 AM UTC+5:30, Anil Kala wrote:
> \kachche ghaRay ne jeet lee naddii chaRhii hu`ii

> |mazbuut kashtiyoN ko kinaaraa nahiiN milaa&amp;quot;
>
> I think the reference is to Sohni Mahiwal love story. Wasn&#39;t in the story &#39;kachcha GhaRa&#39; collapsed, it was the river that won?

prob this guy took the 'aag kaa dariyaa aur doob kay jaanaa' quite literally :)

[BGM]

ab yeh bhi suniye..:)

'Ishq bhi suud-o ziyaaN ko dekh kar hotaa hai ab
tair kar kachchay ghaRe par Duubtaa ko'ii nahiiN"

================================================

[Anil Kala]

On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53:10 PM UTC+5:30, v wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:29:25 AM UTC+5:30, Anil Kala wrote:

> &gt; \kachche ghaRay ne jeet lee naddii chaRhii hu`ii
> &gt; |mazbuut kashtiyoN ko kinaaraa nahiiN milaa&amp;amp;quot;
> &gt;
> &gt; I think the reference is to Sohni Mahiwal love story. Wasn&amp;#39;t in the story &amp;#39;kachcha GhaRa&amp;#39; collapsed, it was the river that won?
>
> prob this guy took the &#39;aag kaa dariyaa aur doob kay jaanaa&#39; quite literally :)

phir shab e Gham ne mujhe shakl dikhaai kyoNkar
ye balaa ghar se nikaali huii aaayii kyoNkar

--------- Mirza DaaG Dehalvi

[bado...@gmail.com]

jaanaa&amp;#39; quite literally :)

>
> phir shab e Gham ne mujhe shakl dikhaai kyoNkar
> ye balaa ghar se nikaali huii aaayii kyoNkar
>
> --------- Mirza DaaG Dehalvi

kab logoN ne alfaaz ke patThar nahiiN pheNke
woh KHat bhi magar maine jalaa kar nahiiN pheNke

--- Akhtar Nazmi

[Vijay]

isii kuuche meN kaii us ke shanaasaa bhii to haiN
voh kisii aur se milne ke bahaane aae

Parveen Shakir

[Anil Kala]

> &gt;
> &gt; kab logoN ne alfaaz ke patThar nahiiN pheNke
> &gt; woh KHat bhi magar maine jalaa kar nahiiN pheNke
> &gt;



Khat -> pheNke or pheNka?

> &gt;          ---   Akhtar Nazmi>

> isii kuuche meN kaii us ke shanaasaa bhii to haiN
> voh kisii aur se milne ke bahaane aae
>
> Parveen Shakir

jo kahta tha hamaara sarphira dil, ham bhi kahte the
kabhi tahaaiyoN ko teri mehfil, ham bhi kahte the

--- Akeel Nomani