Difference between tum hee and tumheen
bhav...@gmail.com
reKhte ke tumheeN ustaad naheeN ho, Ghaalib
kahte haiN agle zamaane meN koi Meer bhi thaa
I only know Hindi and always thought this sher had "tum hee". Wanted
to know the difference between tum hee and tumheeN. Please educate.
Bhavana
Vijay
Interesting question.
In my view, if ghalib is saying the above about himself, then the
correct word is 'tumheeN'; where as if someone else is addressing
ghalib, then it should be 'tum hee'.
Vijay
Raj Kumar
Bhavana saahiba:
lafz "tumheeN" aur "tum hee" ke ma'ani 100% aek haiN albatta --- jab
in alfaaz ko shaa'irii meiN barta jaata hai to hameN in ke 'vazn' ka
Khayaal rakhna paRta hai. vaaqe'a yeh hai k "tum hii yaa tum hi" ka
vazn hai 22 yaa 21, depending on whether the vowel at the end is
elongated or contracted; please note that here 1 stands for a short
syllable, 2 for a long one!
ba-Khilaaf is ke, lafz "tumheeN" ka vazn hai 12 yaa 11 --- in this
particular she'r, it is 11.
ab kyaa kareN k Ghaalib ke is she'r ki baihr hi kuchh aisi hai k, is
maqaam par, lafz "tumheeN" [bar-vazn 11] fit baiThta hai --- "tum hee"
fit naheeN baiThta!
As an aside --- Ghaalib ke aek aur misr'e meiN lafz "tumheeN" bar-vazn
12 bhi ist'emaal hu'aa hai:
har aek baat pe kehte ho tum k tuu kyaa hai?
tumheeN kaho k yeh aNdaaz-e-guftgoo kyaa hai?
I hope this helps --- if it doesn't, I'll be quite willing to give you
further examples that might shed more light on this 'material'
difference between the two expressions which, otherwise, have exactly
the same literal meaning!
Raj Kumar
B.G.M.
> lafz "tumheeN" aur "tum hee" ke ma'ani 100% aek haiN albatta --- jab
> in alfaaz ko shaa'irii meiN barta jaata hai to hameN in ke 'vazn' ka
> Khayaal rakhna paRta hai. vaaqe'a yeh hai k "tum hii yaa tum hi" ka
> vazn hai 22 yaa 21, depending on whether the vowel at the end is
> elongated or contracted; please note that here 1 stands for a short
> syllable, 2 for a long one!
>
> ba-Khilaaf is ke, lafz "tumheeN" ka vazn hai 12 yaa 11 --- in this
> particular she'r, it is 11.
>
> ab kyaa kareN k Ghaalib ke is she'r ki baihr hi kuchh aisi hai k, is
> maqaam par, lafz "tumheeN" [bar-vazn 11] fit baiThta hai --- "tum hee"
> fit naheeN baiThta!
>
> As an aside --- Ghaalib ke aek aur misr'e meiN lafz "tumheeN" bar-vazn
> 12 bhi ist'emaal hu'aa hai:
>
> har aek baat pe kehte ho tum k tuu kyaa hai?
> tumheeN kaho k yeh aNdaaz-e-guftgoo kyaa hai?
>
> I hope this helps --- if it doesn't, I'll be quite willing to give you
> further examples that might shed more light on this 'material'
> difference between the two expressions which, otherwise, have exactly
> the same literal meaning!
>
> Raj Kumar
Janaab-e-Mohtaram Raj saahab, aadaab!
Baat tau aap ne baa-khubhii samjhaa dee, Waa..h!
Magar, iss par ik aur bhi sawaal ubhar aayaa..
Bar-vazn 11 meN 'tumhi' honaa chaahiye yaa k 'tumheeN' ?
Puuchhne kaa matlab hai k iss meN-noon gunnah- hai yaa nahiiN.
javaab kaa muntazir,
~B.G.
=============================
Vijay
Thanks Raj Sahib for the elaborate answer. I guess I was wrong in
assuming that there IS a 'material difference' in the usage of
'tumheeN' v/s 'tum hee'; other than the metric considerations.
Regards,
Vijay
Raj Kumar
> Janaab-e-Mohtaram Raj saahab, aadaab!
>
> Baat tau aap ne baa-khubhii samjhaa dee, Waa..h!
> Magar, iss par ik aur bhi sawaal ubhar aayaa..
>
> Bar-vazn 11 meN 'tumhi' honaa chaahiye yaa k 'tumheeN' ?
>
> Puuchhne kaa matlab hai k iss meN-noon gunnah- hai yaa nahiiN.
javaaban arz hai k, vazn chaahe 11 ho yaa 12, is lafz ke aaKhir meiN
"noon-Ghunna" hamesha hota hai --- albatta, is lafz meiN "noon-Ghunna"
ka ko'ii vazn naheeN hai (yeh bechaara to faqat aavaaz ko 'nasal'
banaata hai, vazn meiN qat'an madaaKhilat naheeN karta!).
rahii baat 11 vs 12 ki --- to is baat ka daar-o-madaar vowel "ye" par
hai. agar harf 'ye' ki aavaaz 'elongated' hai to is lafz ka vazn 12
hoga, agar 'contracted' hai to 11.
I hope this helps!
Raj Kumar
Naseer
janaab-i-Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai
I know nothing about 11, 12, 21 etc which Raj Kumar Sahib has
elaborated upon and have no doubt that this is correct from the poetic
perspective. ....but, the grammarians seem to be saying the following.
ham hii kyaa kareN...kuchh qismat hii aisii hai.
hamiiN ne kahaa thaa kih...
hamiiN se puuchho...
hamiiN ko maan-naa paRe gaa
yih daaGj hamiiN par lagaa hai
etc etc
In other words, ham hii is used in the direct case (without post-
position) and hamiiN in the oblique case (with post position). Having
said all this, I am not sure whether this usage is strictly adhered
to.
pichhlii raat KHvaab meN dekhaa
hamiiN charaaGh hamiiN parvaane
Josh
...............................
KHair-Khvaah,
Naseer
Raj Kumar
> pichhlii raat KHvaab meN dekhaa
> hamiiN charaaGh hamiiN parvaane
>
> Josh
albatta, kisi aur shaa'ir ne (hazrat-e-vaa'iz ke huzoor meiN) yooN
kahaa tha:
raat shaitaaN ko Khwaab meiN dekhaa!
saari suurat janaab kii sii thii!!! :)
Khair, chhoRiye in "muu-shigaafiyoN" ko aur aaiye --- ham aap ko
janaab-e-Qais ke qalam se bar-aamad huye kuchh ruumaani qit'aat
sunaate haiN. ;) farmaate haiN k
aaj tak yaad hai voh shaam k jab
dil meiN utrii thi ik nigaah tirii
muddateN ho gayeeN magar ab tak
ziNdagii tak rahii hai raah tirii!
aasmaanoN pe chhaa gaye baadal
aek bijlii fazaa meiN laihraa'ii
soye armaan uTh ke baiTh gaye!
un ko aise lagaa k tuu aa'ii!!!
dosto, aaj sub'h hone tak
us but-e-ashva-gar ki baat karo!
jaam-o-meenaa ke tazkire chhoRo
us "nasheelii nazar" ki baat karo!!!
husn ki aan hai to aek vuhii
ishq ki jaan hai to aek vuhii
mere dil ke Ghareeb-Khaane meiN
ko'ii mehmaan hai to aek vuhii
fil-haal, itnaa hi kaafi hai --- albatta, agar yaar-log chaaheN to yeh
silsila yaqeenan jaarii--o-saarii rahe ga!
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
Naseer
On Jan 31, 12:01 am, Raj Kumar <rajkumarq...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Khair, chhoRiye in "muu-shigaafiyoN" ko aur aaiye --- ham aap ko
> janaab-e-Qais ke qalam se bar-aamad huye kuchh ruumaani qit'aat
> sunaate haiN. ;) farmaate haiN k
>
> aaj tak yaad hai voh shaam k jab
> dil meiN utrii thi ik nigaah tirii
> muddateN ho gayeeN magar ab tak
> ziNdagii tak rahii hai raah tirii!
bahut KHuub, Raj Kumar Sahib, bahut KHuub!! nah jaane aap ko kisii ne
aaKHirii shi'r ke baare meN kuchh kahaa hai yaa kih nahiiN magar maiN
naa-daan kuchh 'arz karnaa chaahtaa huuN. "tak rahii" ke ma'nii yahaaN
pih yaqiin-an "dekh rahii" ke haiN lekin main ek awr ma'nii le rahaa
huuN...goyaa merii zindagii terii raah tak (as far as your street/
house etc) rahii hai..ya'nii yahii hai merii dunyaa-o-maa-fii-haa!!
kyaa KHyaal hai aap kaa?
> aasmaanoN pe chhaa gaye baadal
> aek bijlii fazaa meiN laihraa'ii
> soye armaan uTh ke baiTh gaye!
> un ko aise lagaa k tuu aa'ii!!!
bilaa-shak bahut KHuub-suurat qita' hai. mujhe yahaaN Akhtar
Shiiraanii kii ek Ghazal kaa shi'r yaad aa rahaa hai. us meN bhii
kuchh aap jaise KHayaalaat haiN..
abr-i-siyaah se ik barq-i-safed lahlahaa uThii???
yaa aa gae vuh saamne gesuu saNvaar aa ke
> dosto, aaj sub'h hone tak
> us but-e-ashva-gar ki baat karo!
> jaam-o-meenaa ke tazkire chhoRo
> us "nasheelii nazar" ki baat karo!!!
>
> husn ki aan hai to aek vuhii
> ishq ki jaan hai to aek vuhii
> mere dil ke Ghareeb-Khaane meiN
> ko'ii mehmaan hai to aek vuhii
bahut bahut shukriya Raj Kumar Sahib, in motiyoN ko pesh karne kaa.
> fil-haal, itnaa hi kaafi hai --- albatta, agar yaar-log chaaheN to yeh
> silsila yaqeenan jaarii--o-saarii rahe ga!
kyoN nahiiN janaab! lekin yih motii is laRii ke nahiiN. inheN qit'aat
kii larii meN honaa chaahiye. lihaazaa maiN in an-mol ratanoN ko ek ek
kar ke "udhar" le jaauuN gaa jahaaN "yaar-log" maziid marvaariid
bakher sakte haiN!!
KHair-KHvaah,
Naseer
Naseer
On Jan 31, 4:08 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> abr-i-siyaah se ik barq-i-safed lahlahaa uThii???
> yaa aa gae vuh saamne gesuu saNvaar aa ke
abr-i-siyah meN ik barq-i-HasiiN lahlahaa uThii
yaa aa gae vuh saamne gesuu saNvaar ke
Naseer
Naseer
bazm meN jaagtaa xvaab yih dekhaa
hamiiN charaaGh hamiiN parvaane
(Raghupati Sahay "Firaq" Gorakhpuri 1896-1982)
In 1958 Qur'atulain Haider published her Urdu translation of Henry James' famous novel "Portrait of a Lady". This shi3r is printed on page 6 of the book.
Naseer
Naseer
................................................................................
18/08/2020
qaatil ko le rahaa hai jo apnii panaah meN
ilzaam-e-qatl us hii ke sar jaanaa chaahiye
yaaraan-e-maHfil, abhii Haal hi meN Irfan sahib ke mundaraja-baalaa she’r par Zoya sahiba ne farmaaya tha:
> I keep reading this as 'us ke hii sar', does that flow easier??
jis ka javaab Irfan sahib ne yuuN diyaa tha:
> > Both ‘hii ke’ and ‘ke hii’ are fine, but asaatiza have almost always used ‘hii’ before ‘kaa/kii/ke.’
Examples:
thaa musta’aar husn se us ke jo nuur thaa
Khurshiid meN bhii us hii kaa zarraa zahuur thaa (Meer)
sone vaaloN pe na chamkaa kabhii nuur-e-saharii
rone vaaloN hii ke chehroN pe sabaahat dekhii (Josh Malihabadi)
In some rare cases, I do find ‘ke hii’ better in terms of flow, but IMHO ‘hii ke’ works here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
meri raaye meN Zoya sahiba ka savaal ain fitrii tha aur Irfan sahib ka javaab bhi nihaayat ma’aquul tha. taaham, maiN is zimn meN aek dil-chasp baat arz karna chaahuuN ga.
For the sake of brevity, let’s call “us hii ke” as option 1, and “us ke hii” as option 2.
ab aap Ghaalib ka yeh she’r dekhiye:
mohabbat meN nahiiN hai farq jeene aur marne kaa usii ko dekh kar jeete haiN, jis kaafir pe dam nikle
Now, what is this “usii ko”? Isn’t it a shortened version of “us hii ko”? On the other hand, if [we] were saying “us ko hii”, the word “usii” might not have even born!
Next, see this beautiful she’r by Hafeez J.
“ham hi meN” thii na ko’ii baat, yaad na tum ko aa sakay tum ne hameN bhulaa diyaa, ham na tumheN bhulaa sakay
in conjunction with the following she’r by Qais
“hameeN ne” Khuun-e-dil de kar sajaayaa bel buuToN ko “hameeN ne” luTte dekhii hai chaman kii aabruu barsoN
Now, isn’t “hameeN ne” equivalent of “ham hi ne” {in the same style as Hafeez has employed "ham hi meN"}; hence a product of option 1. Would option 2 have led to the word “hameeN”?
ab aap MaKhmuur D. ka yeh she’r dekhiye:
“mujhii par” aaye gaa ilzaam merii paa’emaalii kaa tirii raftaar ko, ai fitna-saamaaN, kaun dekhe gaa?
Isn’t “mujhii par” equivalent of “mujh hii par”?
aur Pandit H.C. Akhtar ka yeh she’r:
“inheeN se” daastaaneN ban ga’iiN Farhaad-o-MajnuuN kii zabaaN-zad the jo mere ishq kii ruu-daad ke TukRe
Needless to say, “inheeN se” = “in hii se”.
In short, even though options 1 and 2 are both currently in vogue, I strongly feel that option 1 is the authentic one ------- and option 2 a subsequent variant!
Finally, a short list of words originating in this manner: mujhii, tujhii, isii, usii, hameeN, tumheeN, inheeN, unheeN, etc.
I hope you found this post "interesting".
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar
................................................................................
Irfan SaaHib is correct in saying that both "hii ke" and "ke hii" are fine but "asaatizah" almost invariably use the former. Raj Kumar SaaHib, in essence, is in agreement with Irfan SaaHib and his conclusion is that the former option is the "authentic" one and the latter a variant. By authentic I presume the meaning is that we should aim to emulate this format. At this stage, so that I don't forget, would Raj Kumar SaaHib use "maiN hii ne" or "maiN ne hii"? And using his examples, if...
ham + hii > hamiiN and tum + hee > tumhiiN...
Would maiN + hii > mahiiN?
Now for an alternative view!
Apparently, Maulana Hasrat Mohani wrote a series of articles under the main heading of "nikaat-i-suxan". One of these articles is "ma3aa'ib-i-suxan" and Shamsur Rahman Faruqi has conducted a critical review of all the points raised in this article in his book "3aruuz, aahaNg aur bayaan" under chapter heading "naqd-i-ma3aa'ib". Faruqi includes the usage of "hii" in his "LuGhat-i-rozmarrah" too and brings in Hasrat Mohani in his discussion.
"Harf-i-Hasr yaa Harf-i-taakiid ke taur par "hii" kaa ek hii qaa3idah hai. use us lafz ke faur-an ba3d aanaa chaahiye jis kaa Hasr (maHduud karnaa) maqsuud ho. Hasrat Mohani ne daaGh ke is shi3r par ba-jaa i3tiraaz kiyaa hai.
haaN haaN taRap taRap ke guzaarii hamiiN ne raat
ham ne hii intizaar kiyaa tum ne kyaa kiyaa
Hasrat Mohani kahte haiN kih jis taraH misra3-i-uulaa "hamiiN ne [ham hii ne] thaa usii taraH misra3-i-saanii meN "ham hii ne" honaa chaahiye thaa. lekin mumkin hai daaGh ne takraar se bachne ke liye "ham ne hii" likhaa ho......"
Now, turning back to "naqd-i-ma3aa'ib"...
"Maulana kaa irshaad bi_lkul ba-jaa hai kih "hii" ko usii lafz ke faur-an ba3d isti3maal karnaa chaahiye jis par zor denaa maqsuud ho. lekin maujuudah muHaavarah aahistah aahistah lafz "hii" kii jagah badalne par maa'il ho rahaa hai. chunaaNchih yih misaaleN mulaaHizah hoN.
maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa.
yih kitaab Lakhnau meN hii mil jaa'e gii.
dhuup kii hii tapish kyaa kam thii?
paa'o bhar hii ghii bahut ho gaa.
in tamaam jumloN meN "hii" apnii rivaayatii jagah par nahiiN hai, lekin Ghalatii maHsuus nahiiN hotii. vajh yih hai kih jis lafz par zor denaa maqsuud ho, agar is ke ba'd ko'ii 3alaamat-i-faa3ilii, Harf-i-jaar, ism-i-miqdaar vaGhairah aa jaa'e to "hii" ko us ke ba3d rakhte haiN. ya3nii....
maiN hii ne aap ko xat likhaa thaa ...ki jagah
maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa ... bolte haiN.
yahii muHaavirah 3aam hai aur mere xayaal meN is kaa tatabbu3 karnaa chaahiye."
Naseer
Naseer
I am a bit surprised that tumhiiN is not found in Hindi!
I don't know if you still visit this thread or not but for the sake of completion, here is a difinitive response for your question. The source of my information is Rasheed Hasan Khan's book "Urdu Imlaa" (Urdu Writing System). Rasheed Hasan Khan was an eminent Urdu researcher, critic and scholar of classical Urdu texts. He also wrote a number of books on Urdu language itself and Urdu Imlaa is one of them.
I shall keep this post simole and straight forward and present these pronouns in sets.
Set 1.
maiN hii/ham hii
tuu hii/tum hii/aap hii
yih hii/yih hii
vuh hii/vuh hii
Set 2.
mujh hii/ ham hii
tujh hii/tum hii/aap hii
is hii/in hii
us hii/un hii
Set 3.
mujh hii > mujhii
ham hii > hamii > hamiiN
tujh hii > tujhii
tum hii > tumhii > tumhiiN
aap hii > aapii*
yih hii > yihii or yahii
vuh hii > vuhii or vahii
is hii > isii
us hii > usii
in hii > inhii > inhiiN
un hii > unhii > inhiiN
Rasheed Hasan Khan says that some people just use "ham hii" and "tum hii" without the nasal ending. Then he goes onto say that all these forms are in vogue but the nasal forms are used more so.
But in terms of meaning, as Raj Kumar SaaHib has indicated, there is no difference in meaning between the non-nasal and nasal forms.
................................................................................
Other relevant words with "hii" are:
ab hii > abhii; tab hii > tabhii; jab hii > jabhii; kab hii > kabhii and sab hii > sabhii
ek hii > ekii*
yuuN hii > yuuNhii > yuuNhiiN
juuN hii > juuNhii > juuNhiiN
yahaaN hii > yahiiN
vahaaN hii > vahiiN
* These two forms were news to me!:-)
Naseer
Raj Kumar
> Friends, this post of mine is linked to a thread begun by Irfan SaaHib entitled, "Ghazal: "kitnaa bhii raah meN..."", especially post number 9 by Raj Kumar SaaHib. I have copy/pasted that post below. I had indicated I might add a little to Raj Kumar SaaHib's proposed post and as this thread is on the topic of "hii", I thought it would be appropriate to discuss all this here.
> Irfan SaaHib is correct in saying that both "hii ke" and "ke hii" are fine but "asaatizah" almost invariably use the former. Raj Kumar SaaHib, in essence, is in agreement with Irfan SaaHib and his conclusion is that the former option is the "authentic" one and the latter a variant. By authentic I presume the meaning is that we should aim to emulate this format. At this stage, so that I don't forget, would Raj Kumar SaaHib use "maiN hii ne" or "maiN ne hii"?
------------
And using his examples, if...
>
> ham + hii > hamiiN and tum + hee > tumhiiN...
>
> Would maiN + hii > mahiiN?
-------------
> Now for an alternative view!
>
> Apparently, Maulana Hasrat Mohani wrote a series of articles under the main heading of "nikaat-i-suxan". One of these articles is "ma3aa'ib-i-suxan" and Shamsur Rahman Faruqi has conducted a critical review of all the points raised in this article in his book "3aruuz, aahaNg aur bayaan" under chapter heading "naqd-i-ma3aa'ib". Faruqi includes the usage of "hii" in his "LuGhat-i-rozmarrah" too and brings in Hasrat Mohani in his discussion.
>
> "Harf-i-Hasr yaa Harf-i-taakiid ke taur par "hii" kaa ek hii qaa3idah hai. use us lafz ke faur-an ba3d aanaa chaahiye jis kaa Hasr (maHduud karnaa) maqsuud ho. Hasrat Mohani ne daaGh ke is shi3r par ba-jaa i3tiraaz kiyaa hai.
>
> haaN haaN taRap taRap ke guzaarii hamiiN ne raat
> ham ne hii intizaar kiyaa tum ne kyaa kiyaa
>
> Hasrat Mohani kahte haiN kih jis taraH misra3-i-uulaa "hamiiN ne [ham hii ne] thaa usii taraH misra3-i-saanii meN "ham hii ne" honaa chaahiye thaa. lekin mumkin hai daaGh ne takraar se bachne ke liye "ham ne hii" likhaa ho......"
>
> Now, turning back to "naqd-i-ma3aa'ib"...
>
> "Maulana kaa irshaad bi_lkul ba-jaa hai kih "hii" ko usii lafz ke faur-an ba3d isti3maal karnaa chaahiye jis par zor denaa maqsuud ho. lekin maujuudah muHaavarah aahistah aahistah lafz "hii" kii jagah badalne par maa'il ho rahaa hai. chunaaNchih yih misaaleN mulaaHizah hoN.
>
> maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa.
>
> yih kitaab Lakhnau meN hii mil jaa'e gii.
>
> dhuup kii hii tapish kyaa kam thii?
>
> paa'o bhar hii ghii bahut ho gaa.
>
> in tamaam jumloN meN "hii" apnii rivaayatii jagah par nahiiN hai, lekin Ghalatii maHsuus nahiiN hotii. vajh yih hai kih jis lafz par zor denaa maqsuud ho, agar is ke ba'd ko'ii 3alaamat-i-faa3ilii, Harf-i-jaar, ism-i-miqdaar vaGhairah aa jaa'e to "hii" ko us ke ba3d rakhte haiN. ya3nii....
>
> maiN hii ne aap ko xat likhaa thaa ...ki jagah
>
> maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa ... bolte haiN.
>
> yahii muHaavirah 3aam hai aur mere xayaal meN is kaa tatabbu3 karnaa chaahiye."
>
> Naseer
I think this message is not very different from the one I had tried to convey in my original post --------------- apart from my pointing out the important fact that so many new words originated from option 1, and perhaps none from option 2.
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***
Raj Kumar
> On Wednesday, 16 January 2008 19:04:11 UTC, bhav...@gmail.com wrote:
> > In another group UVR Sir had quoted this sher of Ghalib:
> >
> > reKhte ke tumheeN ustaad naheeN ho, Ghaalib
> > kahte haiN agle zamaane meN koi Meer bhi thaa
> >
> >
> > I only know Hindi and always thought this sher had "tum hee". Wanted
> > to know the difference between tum hee and tumheeN. Please educate.
> >
> > Bhavana
> Bhavana SaaHiba aadaab.
>
> I am a bit surprised that tumhiiN is not found in Hindi!
>
> I don't know if you still visit this thread or not but for the sake of completion, here is a difinitive response for your question. The source of my information is Rasheed Hasan Khan's book "Urdu Imlaa" (Urdu Writing System). Rasheed Hasan Khan was an eminent Urdu researcher, critic and scholar of classical Urdu texts. He also wrote a number of books on Urdu language itself and Urdu Imlaa is one of them.
>
janaab-e-man, jin do maqaamaat par aap ne 'star' lagaaya hai, un meN se aek lafz se maiN vaaqif huN, i.e., aap hii = aapii.
jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, gurubaani meN aek jagah par yeh misr'a aata hai: "aapii aap niranjan sohe".
albatta, maiN ne "aek hii = aekii" kabhi nahiiN sunaa.
Khair, aap jaate jaate, lafz "in hii = inhiiN" par aek "fas-klaas" she'r sunte jaaiye:
inhiiN se daastaaneN ban ga'iiN Farhaad-o-MajnuuN kii
zabaaN-zad the jo mere ishq kii ruu-daad ke TukRe!
[H.C.Akhtar?]
Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***
Naseer
Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
ghul gayaa aapii aap kuchh Qaa'im
kyaa balaa is javaan par aa'ii
....................................
hai imtiyaaz-i-3aajiz-o-zaalim zamiin par
ekii haiN naa-tavaan-o-tavaanaa zamiin meN
Rashk
........................................
Naseer
Naseer
> On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 8:39:53 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> At this stage, so that I don't forget, would Raj Kumar SaaHib use "maiN hii ne" or "maiN ne hii"?
>
> ***I'll say: "mujhii ne" --- just like "hamiiN ne", as in my she'r quoted above!***
>
> ------------
>
> And using his examples, if...
> >
> > ham + hii > hamiiN and tum + hee > tumhiiN...
> >
> > Would maiN + hii > mahiiN?
>
> ***No, it will be "mujhii"!***
>
> -------------
But Raj Kumar SaaHib, as we can not have "mujh ne", how can we have "mujhii ne"? So, the only possibilities are:
maiN hii ne
and
maiN ne hii
For the first option, "maiN hii" > mahiiN. I have never come across this word before but apparently according to Rasheed Hasan Khan, it did exist but it never took off. Urdu LuGhat gives this citation.
jise chaahe tuu vuh mahiiN kyoN hu'ii
Ilaahii maiN aisii HasiiN kyoN hu'ii
Qaasim aur Zuhra 1910 page 27
Naseer
Raj Kumar
> On Thursday, 17 September 2020 19:43:58 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 8:39:53 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > At this stage, so that I don't forget, would Raj Kumar SaaHib use "maiN hii ne" or "maiN ne hii"?
> >
> > ***I'll say: "mujhii ne" --- just like "hamiiN ne", as in my she'r quoted above!***
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > And using his examples, if...
> > >
> > > ham + hii > hamiiN and tum + hee > tumhiiN...
> > >
> > > Would maiN + hii > mahiiN?
> >
> > ***No, it will be "mujhii"!***
> >
> > -------------
> > Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***
> But Raj Kumar SaaHib, as we can not have "mujh ne", how can we have "mujhii ne"? So, the only possibilities are:
>
> maiN hii ne
>
> and
>
> maiN ne hii
mujhii par aaye gaa ilzaam merii paa'imaalii kaa
to "mujhii ne" kahne meN kyaa harj hai? At least, I don't see any!
B/W, your "can not" is essentially 'matruuk'; it should be one word, namely "cannot".*** :-)
> For the first option, "maiN hii" > mahiiN. I have never come across this word before but apparently according to Rasheed Hasan Khan, it did exist but it never took off. Urdu LuGhat gives this citation.
>
> jise chaahe tuu vuh mahiiN kyoN hu'ii
> Ilaahii maiN aisii HasiiN kyoN hu'ii
>
> Qaasim aur Zuhra 1910 page 27
aap ka
madHat-kun-e-"Naaseer" bhii,
yeh faqeer-e-pur-taqseer bhii,
be-baihrah-e-taHreer bhii,
naakaarah-e-taqreer bhii,
yeh Qais-e-paabaNd-e-vafaa
hai vaajib-e-zaNjeer bhii!
agge rabb raakhhaa!
R.K.***
Naseer
kyaa aap ko'ii sanad pesh kar sakte haiN jis meN "mujh ne" yaa "mujhii ne ho? I am certain you won't be able to!! The word "ne" is very strange in this respect.
mujh par/meN/se/ko/tak are all fine but not mujh ne!
tujh par/meN/se/ko/tak are all fine too but not tujh ne!
maiN ne /ham ne/tuu ne/ tum ne are all fine too.
But yuh ne/vuh ne are NOT and we have to go for is/us ne and in/un ne; inhoN ne/unhoN ne
In summary "ne" does not go with mujh/mujhii and tujh/tujhii.
By the way "Naaseer" became "matruuk" along with "can not"!:-)
Naseer
Raj Kumar
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> kyaa aap ko'ii sanad pesh kar sakte haiN jis meN "mujh ne" yaa "mujhii ne" ho? I am certain you won't be able to!! The word "ne" is very strange in this respect.
>
> mujh par/meN/se/ko/tak are all fine but not mujh ne!
>
> tujh par/meN/se/ko/tak are all fine too but not tujh ne!
>
> maiN ne /ham ne/tuu ne/ tum ne are all fine too.
>
> But yuh ne/vuh ne are NOT and we have to go for is/us ne and in/un ne; inhoN ne/unhoN ne
>
> In summary "ne" does not go with mujh/mujhii and tujh/tujhii.
> By the way "Naaseer" became "matruuk" along with "can not"!:-)
>
R.K.***