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Salma se dil lagaa kar.............
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Zoya
Jul 20, 2021, 11:53:17 AM7/20/21
to
Friends,
I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
In 1950s, when dad was an undergraduate student in Govt College Ludhiana, his Geography professor used to quote from this nazm often. Interestingly, dad was one of the rare students who took Physics-Geography combination in his BS, later he switched to English literature for MA and Doctorate.
Coming back to the nazm, dad tells me that when he met his old Geography professor during a college alumni meet in the 70s, he told him that the main thing he remembered from those lectures was Salma! The professor recited the whole nazm again on stage. :-)
This nazm is so hummable. I recently did a google search to see if any singer had recorded it. Guess what, the only audio recording I could find is in the voice of Deedar Singh Pardesi, an accomplished ghazal and Punjabi folk singer, who also sang for some Hindi movies. Deedar Singh was based in Kenya, and moved to UK later. Incidentally, he is a cousin of the eminent Punjabi poet Surjit Patar, who is a very close friend of my dad. Small world!
I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfY1h0MghDI
Now, I have two questions.
1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
Thanks,
_______Zoya
I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
In 1950s, when dad was an undergraduate student in Govt College Ludhiana, his Geography professor used to quote from this nazm often. Interestingly, dad was one of the rare students who took Physics-Geography combination in his BS, later he switched to English literature for MA and Doctorate.
Coming back to the nazm, dad tells me that when he met his old Geography professor during a college alumni meet in the 70s, he told him that the main thing he remembered from those lectures was Salma! The professor recited the whole nazm again on stage. :-)
This nazm is so hummable. I recently did a google search to see if any singer had recorded it. Guess what, the only audio recording I could find is in the voice of Deedar Singh Pardesi, an accomplished ghazal and Punjabi folk singer, who also sang for some Hindi movies. Deedar Singh was based in Kenya, and moved to UK later. Incidentally, he is a cousin of the eminent Punjabi poet Surjit Patar, who is a very close friend of my dad. Small world!
I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfY1h0MghDI
Now, I have two questions.
1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
Thanks,
_______Zoya
B.G. M.
Jul 20, 2021, 12:39:10 PM7/20/21
to
Pardesi ki aavaaz or singing is very clear and pleasant to hear.
Mazaa aa gayaa sun kar!
Thanks for posting Zoya ji!👍🙏
==================================
Zoya
Jul 20, 2021, 9:51:35 PM7/20/21
to
On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 11:39:10 AM UTC-5, B.G. M. wrote:
> Waa…h! What a down to earth nazm!
Beautiful indeed, BGM sahib. Akhtar Shirani was a master of such nazms.
> Waa…h! What a down to earth nazm!
> Pardesi ki aavaaz or singing is very clear and pleasant to hear.
> Mazaa aa gayaa sun kar!
> Thanks for posting Zoya ji!👍🙏
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZzlW1hpMdw
And here is one more 'Salma' nazm, another Akhtar Shirani and Deedar Singh Pardesi combination. I am sure you will like this one also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZA4OZnAoYM
_______Zoya
Naseer
Jul 21, 2021, 4:16:04 AM7/21/21
to
On Tuesday, 20 July 2021 at 16:53:17 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
>
> My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
> Friends,
>
> I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
>
> My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
> Now, I have two questions.
>
> 1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
> 2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
>
> Thanks,
>
> _______Zoya
Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
>
> 1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
> 2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
>
> Thanks,
>
> _______Zoya
2. Chhipnaa/chhupnaa are both cited in Platts although Urdu LuGhat has no trace of chhipnaa. Neither is chhipnaa mentioned in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah. So, the conclusion is "chhupnaa" is the dominant and perhaps exclusive form in Urdu. I have never used chhipnaa in Urdu or Punjabi. I have not heard a Punjabi person use this verb when speaking Punjabi. In fact the verb we use in our Punjabi is "chhupNRaa".
1. In the pre-Islamic days of Arabia, there were annual fairs in which Arab poets competed with the best poets of the day and recited their love poetry. The custom was that the poet would not reveal the identity of the beloved and would use assumed names. The most common of these ficticious names were عذرا، عنیزہ and سلمیٰ . In English poetry Wordsworth's Lucy was a ficticious name. Akhtar Sherani has used shahnaaz, raiHaanah as well as 3azraa and Salmaa. Salmaa is the most-often used name to depict the embodiment of the perfect woman, whose characterisics are complete in every way! See page 39 of the following link for more details.
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/akhtar-shirani-aur-uski-shayari-akhtar-shirani-ebooks (p39)
Naseer
Message has been deleted
Zoya
Jul 21, 2021, 11:44:42 AM7/21/21
to
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 3:16:04 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
>
> 2. Chhipnaa/chhupnaa are both cited in Platts although Urdu LuGhat has no trace of chhipnaa. Neither is chhipnaa mentioned in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah. So, the conclusion is "chhupnaa" is the dominant and perhaps exclusive form in Urdu. I have never used chhipnaa in Urdu or Punjabi. I have not heard a Punjabi person use this verb when speaking Punjabi. In fact the verb we use in our Punjabi is "chhupNRaa".
aadaab Naseer sahib,
> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
>
> 2. Chhipnaa/chhupnaa are both cited in Platts although Urdu LuGhat has no trace of chhipnaa. Neither is chhipnaa mentioned in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah. So, the conclusion is "chhupnaa" is the dominant and perhaps exclusive form in Urdu. I have never used chhipnaa in Urdu or Punjabi. I have not heard a Punjabi person use this verb when speaking Punjabi. In fact the verb we use in our Punjabi is "chhupNRaa".
Thanks for responding to my query. Interesting that Platts lists both versions. I agree that 'chhupnaa' is most likely the exclusive version in Urdu, and perhaps even in Hindi. However, since yesterday, I have been thinking about this usage in Punjabi and I have figured out why Deedar Singh Pardesi sang ' din chhipe'. I have never heard this particular phrase being called 'din chhupe', I kind of feel it is a compound word in Punjabi. Urdu speakers would normally say 'din Dhale', so it wouldn't even be an issue.
I have also often heard 'suuraj chhip gayaa' in Punjabi, almost never 'suuraj chhup gayaa'. In other contexts, 'chhup' is more common in Punjabi. Now I am really curious, do you say 'din chhupe' or 'din chhipe', honestly I have never heard it pronounced as 'din chhupe'. Maybe it is a regional thing? Remember, I speak typical Maalwa Punjabi, whereas Deedar Singh Pardesi's native village is in Do'aaba, and then there is Maajha! :-) I am also wondering what Prof RK has to say about chhupnaa/chhipnaa in general, and 'din chhipe' in particular.
> 1. In the pre-Islamic days of Arabia, there were annual fairs in which Arab poets competed with the best poets of the day and recited their love poetry. The custom was that the poet would not reveal the identity of the beloved and would use assumed names. The most common of these ficticious names were عذرا، عنیزہ and سلمیٰ .
In English poetry Wordsworth's Lucy was a ficticious name.
Akhtar Sherani has used shahnaaz, raiHaanah as well as 3azraa and Salmaa. Salmaa is the most-often used name to depict the embodiment of the perfect woman, whose characterisics are complete in every way! See page 39 of the following link for more details.
> https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/akhtar-shirani-aur-uski-shayari-akhtar-shirani-ebooks (p39)
Thanks for the link, will check it out.
> Naseer
_______Zoya
P.S. Had you heard of Prof Mohan Singh's 'ambi daa buuTa' previously? When I listened to it in Deedar Singh's voice yesterday, after a gap of many years, I noticed that it has numerous typical Punjabi words and phrases. Perhaps it is difficult to understand for BGM sahib and other non Punjabi listeners.
Raj Kumar
Jul 21, 2021, 5:19:47 PM7/21/21
to
On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 8:53:17 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
>
> My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
>
> Friends,
>
> I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
>
> My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
>
> This nazm is so hummable. I recently did a google search to see if any singer had recorded it. Guess what, the only audio recording I could find is in the voice of Deedar Singh Pardesi, an accomplished ghazal and Punjabi folk singer, who also sang for some Hindi movies. Deedar Singh was based in Kenya, and moved to UK later. Incidentally, he is a cousin of the eminent Punjabi poet Surjit Patar, who is a very close friend of my dad. Small world!
>
> I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfY1h0MghDI
>
> Now, I have two questions.
>
> 1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
***ZS, aap ke is savaal ka tafseeli javaab to Naseer sahib faraaham kar chuke haiN, mujhe sirf itna hi kahna hai k AS ki kisi jeeti-jagti maHbuuba ka naam Salma nahiiN tha. unhoN ne is farzi naam ko apni shaa'iri meN bartaa aur is kasrat se aur is Khuubi se barta k logoN ki nigaahoN meN Salma aek jeeti-jaagti laRki ban ga'ii. vaise bhi, kaun aisa saa'ir hoga jo apni maHbuuba ka asl naam ist'emaal kar ke use jahaan bhar meN rusvaa kare?
>
> I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfY1h0MghDI
>
> Now, I have two questions.
>
> 1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
maiN yeh bhi kahna chaahuuN ga k is farzi naam ko AS ke ilaava kisi deegar Urdu shaa'ir ne shaa'id hi ist'emaal kiyaa ho; kam-az-kam maiN ne to aisi ko'ii misaal nahiiN dekhi --- sivaaye is she'r ke
ka'ii Salmaa'eN dekhii haiN, ka'ii 'azraa'eN dekhii haiN
nigaah-e-Qais ne phir bhii ko'ii tum saa nahiiN dekhaa! :-) ***
> 2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.
3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.
4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)
I hope this helps.
R.K.***
Zoya
Jul 22, 2021, 11:54:53 AM7/22/21
to
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 4:19:47 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> ***ZS, aap ke is savaal ka tafseeli javaab to Naseer sahib faraaham kar chuke haiN, mujhe sirf itna hi kahna hai k AS ki kisi jeeti-jagti maHbuuba ka naam Salma nahiiN tha. unhoN ne is farzi naam ko apni shaa'iri meN bartaa aur is kasrat se aur is Khuubi se barta k logoN ki nigaahoN meN Salma aek jeeti-jaagti laRki ban ga'ii. vaise bhi, kaun aisa saa'ir hoga jo apni maHbuuba ka asl naam ist'emaal kar ke use jahaan bhar meN rusvaa kare?
Prof RK,
> ***ZS, aap ke is savaal ka tafseeli javaab to Naseer sahib faraaham kar chuke haiN, mujhe sirf itna hi kahna hai k AS ki kisi jeeti-jagti maHbuuba ka naam Salma nahiiN tha. unhoN ne is farzi naam ko apni shaa'iri meN bartaa aur is kasrat se aur is Khuubi se barta k logoN ki nigaahoN meN Salma aek jeeti-jaagti laRki ban ga'ii. vaise bhi, kaun aisa saa'ir hoga jo apni maHbuuba ka asl naam ist'emaal kar ke use jahaan bhar meN rusvaa kare?
Thanks for your detailed and informative response to my questions. It makes perfect sense why Urdu poets wouldn't use the real name of a beloved. Even more so, until relatively recently, the beloved in Urdu poetry mostly used to be gender neutral, so not much room for names anyway.
> maiN yeh bhi kahna chaahuuN ga k is farzi naam ko AS ke ilaava kisi deegar Urdu shaa'ir ne shaa'id hi ist'emaal kiyaa ho;
kam-az-kam maiN ne to aisi ko'ii misaal nahiiN dekhi --- sivaaye is she'r ke
>
> ka'ii Salmaa'eN dekhii haiN, ka'ii 'azraa'eN dekhii haiN
> nigaah-e-Qais ne phir bhii ko'ii tum saa nahiiN dekhaa! :-) ***
"sab se judi, sab se alag, sab se anokhi". :-)))
> ***is savaal par bhi Naseer sahib raushnii Daal chuke haiN, maiN do-aek baateN mazeed kahna chaahuuN ga:
>
> 1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
> 2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.
> 3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.
> 4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)
May be there would be no confusion for me if 'chhupe' were not combined with 'din'? I totally agree that 'chhip' would be unacceptable in general, but Deedar Singh saying "din chhipe" may not be so bad? Again, I am not really arguing in his favor, just still wondering about "din chhipe". One follow up question for you, is this written usage common in Urdu, or is it mostly 'din Dhale'?
> I hope this helps.
> R.K.***
Thank you,
_______Zoya
Naseer
Jul 22, 2021, 1:24:12 PM7/22/21
to
Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
On Wednesday, 21 July 2021 at 16:44:42 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> Thanks for responding to my query. Interesting that Platts lists both versions. I agree that 'chhupnaa' is most likely the exclusive version in Urdu, and perhaps even in Hindi. However, since yesterday, I have been thinking about this usage in Punjabi and I have figured out why Deedar Singh Pardesi sang ' din chhipe'. I have never heard this particular phrase being called 'din chhupe', I kind of feel it is a compound word in Punjabi. Urdu speakers would normally say 'din Dhale', so it wouldn't even be an issue.
>
> I have also often heard 'suuraj chhip gayaa' in Punjabi, almost never 'suuraj chhup gayaa'. In other contexts, 'chhup' is more common in Punjabi. Now I am really curious, do you say 'din chhupe' or 'din chhipe', honestly I have never heard it pronounced as 'din chhupe'. Maybe it is a regional thing? Remember, I speak typical Maalwa Punjabi, whereas Deedar Singh Pardesi's native village is in Do'aaba, and then there is Maajha! :-) I am also wondering what Prof RK has to say about chhupnaa/chhipnaa in general, and 'din chhipe' in particular.
"din chhupnaa" and "din chhupe" are both attested in the Urdu LuGhat.
Platts has "din chhipe" (see my reply to Raj Kumar SaaHib)
Akthar Sherani's family background is pashtuun (Pathan) which many centuries back settled in Tonk, Rajastan. Young Muhammad Dawood Khan (Akhtar Sherani) moved to Lahore at a very young age when his father was teaching there. But still, I do not think "chhipe" can be put down to Punjabi influence as "chhipnaa" is not Punjabi, to the best of my knowledge.
Naseer
On Wednesday, 21 July 2021 at 16:44:42 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> Thanks for responding to my query. Interesting that Platts lists both versions. I agree that 'chhupnaa' is most likely the exclusive version in Urdu, and perhaps even in Hindi. However, since yesterday, I have been thinking about this usage in Punjabi and I have figured out why Deedar Singh Pardesi sang ' din chhipe'. I have never heard this particular phrase being called 'din chhupe', I kind of feel it is a compound word in Punjabi. Urdu speakers would normally say 'din Dhale', so it wouldn't even be an issue.
>
> I have also often heard 'suuraj chhip gayaa' in Punjabi, almost never 'suuraj chhup gayaa'. In other contexts, 'chhup' is more common in Punjabi. Now I am really curious, do you say 'din chhupe' or 'din chhipe', honestly I have never heard it pronounced as 'din chhupe'. Maybe it is a regional thing? Remember, I speak typical Maalwa Punjabi, whereas Deedar Singh Pardesi's native village is in Do'aaba, and then there is Maajha! :-) I am also wondering what Prof RK has to say about chhupnaa/chhipnaa in general, and 'din chhipe' in particular.
Platts has "din chhipe" (see my reply to Raj Kumar SaaHib)
Akthar Sherani's family background is pashtuun (Pathan) which many centuries back settled in Tonk, Rajastan. Young Muhammad Dawood Khan (Akhtar Sherani) moved to Lahore at a very young age when his father was teaching there. But still, I do not think "chhipe" can be put down to Punjabi influence as "chhipnaa" is not Punjabi, to the best of my knowledge.
Naseer
Naseer
Jul 22, 2021, 1:44:52 PM7/22/21
to
On Wednesday, 21 July 2021 at 22:19:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> ***is savaal par bhi Naseer sahib raushnii Daal chuke haiN, maiN do-aek baateN mazeed kahna chaahuuN ga:
>
> 1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
>
INTERESTINGLY (to copy your style:-)), Farhang-i-Asafiyyah compiler states that "chhipnaa" is Lukhnow Urdu and "chhupnaa" is Delhi style. I am not too sure about this. Why? Because a very learned gentleman, like your good self, used to visit another language group. He hailed from Lucknow and stated that they don't use "chhipnaa" but he had heard someone from Amroha pronounce the word as "chhipnaa" although he could n't say if everyone from that area pronounced the word so.
> ***is savaal par bhi Naseer sahib raushnii Daal chuke haiN, maiN do-aek baateN mazeed kahna chaahuuN ga:
>
> 1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
>
> 2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.
>
> 3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.
>
> 4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)
>
> I hope this helps.
>
Film "do raaste" has a song "chhup ga'e saare sitaare o'e kyaa baat ho ga'ii", written by Anand Bakshi, a fully fledged Punjabi, like you and me. But "lo chhip gayaa chaaNd" by Pyarelal Santoshi who was born in Bombay -- was not a Punjabi. I think this settles the issue!:-)
Naseer
Zoya
Jul 22, 2021, 11:22:00 PM7/22/21
to
On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:44:52 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > 1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
> >
> INTERESTINGLY (to copy your style:-)), Farhang-i-Asafiyyah compiler states that "chhipnaa" is Lukhnow Urdu and "chhupnaa" is Delhi style. I am not too sure about this. Why? Because a very learned gentleman, like your good self, used to visit another language group. He hailed from Lucknow and stated that they don't use "chhipnaa" but he had heard someone from Amroha pronounce the word as "chhipnaa" although he could n't say if everyone from that area pronounced the word so.
All right, gentlemen. Lucknow and Amroha?!
> > 1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
> >
> INTERESTINGLY (to copy your style:-)), Farhang-i-Asafiyyah compiler states that "chhipnaa" is Lukhnow Urdu and "chhupnaa" is Delhi style. I am not too sure about this. Why? Because a very learned gentleman, like your good self, used to visit another language group. He hailed from Lucknow and stated that they don't use "chhipnaa" but he had heard someone from Amroha pronounce the word as "chhipnaa" although he could n't say if everyone from that area pronounced the word so.
Wow! Deedar Singh Pardesi is in good company for sure.
Amroha ---- the likes of Kamaal Amrohi, Raees Amrohvi and best of all, Jaun Eliya! :-)
What more can I say after this?! :)
Thank you.
_______Zoya
Naseer
Jul 23, 2021, 10:00:02 AM7/23/21
to
On Wednesday, 21 July 2021 at 22:19:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
I've been able to dig further into the hidden mysteries of the verb چھپنا and here is the difinitive answer in all its glory!:-)
agar aap se us pih vuh aa gire
to faanuus meN sham3 chhiptii phire
(misra3 no. 128, siHr-ul-bayaan - Mir Ghulam Hasan, Hasan Dihlavi)
This masnavii was written in 1785 about which its author says...
nahiiN masnavii, hai yih ik phul-jhaRii
musalsal hai motii kii goyaa laRii
na'ii tarz hai aur na'ii hai zabaaN
nahiiN masnavii, hai yih siHr-ul-bayaaN
rahe gaa jahaaN meN miraa is se naam
kih hai yaadgaar-i-jahaaN yih kalaam
The late Urdu scholar, Rasheed Hasan Khan has compiled a critical research book on this masnavi [siHr-ul-bayaan -Anjuman-i-Taraqqii Urdu (Hind) 2010] and in the third addendum he talks about "talaffuz aur imlaa". I should add that the printed copy of the masnavi that Rasheed Hasan Khan has resorted to is the very first printed copy of this book, printed under the supervision of John Gilchrist of the Fort William College, Calcutta fame. We know the college was founded in 1800. The beauty of this printed work is that it shows the short vowels (zer and pesh) and when either of these is not present, one must assume a zabar.
On page 418 of this compilation, Rasheed Hasan Khan has the word "chhiptii" on the second line of the page. He has designated the letter "fe" ف to indicate Fort William College copy. I quote...
"ف meN chh ke niiche zer lagaa hu'aa hai. 3ahd-i-Mir Hasan meN fusHaa-i-dihlii ke Halqe meN "چھپنا" aur is masdar (infinitive) ke mushtaqqaat (derivatives) ba-kasr-i-avval musta3mal the. Insha ne daryaa-i-lataafat meN likhaa hai, "chhipnaa aur chhupnaa" meN kasre (zer) aur zamme (pesh) kii muxaalifat hai. fasiiH bi_lkasr hai aur zamme ke saath ahl-i-muGhalpurah kaa lahjah hai. ahl-i-Urdu kii zabaan nahiiN""
So, it seems that upto Insha's time at least Urdu speakers were saying "chhipnaa".
"lekin raftah raftah is masdar ke mushtaqqaat dihlii meN ba-zamm-i-avaal musta3mal ho ga'e. Mirza Ghalib* ne BeKhabar ko ek xat meN likhaa hai, "aur haaN Hazrat! vuh majmuu3ah chhape gaa bi_lfatH (zabar ke saath) yaa chhupe gaa bi_lzamm (pesh ke saath). unhii ko ek aur xat meN likhaa hai..."majmuu3ah-i-nasr-i-Urdu kaa intibaa3 agar mere likhe hu'e diibaache par mauquuf hai to us majmuu3e kaa chhap jaanaa bi_lfatH maiN nahiiN chaahtaa balkih chhup jaanaa biz_zamm chaahtaa huuN"...haaN fusHaa-i-lakhnau shruu3 hii se is masdar aur is ke mushtaqqaat ko bah kasr-i-avval bolte the. Jalaal ne apne luGhat sarmaayah-i-zabaan-i-Urdu meN likhaa hai, "yih lafz fusHaa-i-lakhnau kii zabaan par bi_lkasr hai aur ahl-i-dihlii kii zabaan par biz_zamm". yahii baat mu'allif-i-Nur-ul-LuGhaat (a well known Urdu dictionary) ne likhii hai. Asafiyyah (an older well known Urdu dictionary) meN "chhupnaa" hai aur is se vaaziH taur par ma3luum hotaa hai kih Insha, Mir Amman aur Mir Hasan ke zamaane meN dihlii meN musta3mal "chhipnaa" (ba-kasr-i-avval) raftah raftah "chhupnaa" (ba zamm-i-avval) se badal gayaa (aur ab dihlii meN "chhupnaa hii kahte haiN). haaN Mir Amman ne ganj-i-xuubii meN iltizaam ke saath is masdar ke mushtaqqaat ko ba-kasr-i-avval likhaa hai aur baaGh-o-bahaar meN bhii aise lafz ba-kasr-i-avval milte haiN.........isii binaa par چھپنا aur is ke jumlah mustaqqaat ko har jagah ba-kasr-i-avval likhaa gayaa hai. (ف meN bhii har jagah yahii suurat hai)".
So, in conclusion, blame the people of "MuGhalpurah" who have single handedly turned the tide from "chhipnaa" to "chhupnaa"!:-) So much so that even the Lakhnavii gentleman I mentioned in my earlier post has lost all trace of "chhipnaa" from his consciousness!:-) But where is Mughalpurah?!
Naseer
Raj Kumar
Jul 23, 2021, 12:58:23 PM7/23/21
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in baatoN se saaf zaahir hai k jis zamaane meN ham rah rahe haiN, aihl-e-Urdu ki nazar meN is lafz ka talaffuz "chhupna" hi ravaa hai, "chhipna" ravaa nahiiN hai. yaqeenan, AS ne bhi "din chhupe" hi kahaa hoga, "din chhipe" nahiiN kahaa hoga (more on it later).
jahaaN tak mera Khayaal hai, yahaaN "muGhalpura" se muraad "Shahjahaanabad" (ya'ani Dihlii) hai. voh "MuGhalpura" jo Lahore ke paas mashriq ki jaanib vaaqe'a hai --- cannot be. :-)
Raj Kumar***
Raj Kumar
Jul 23, 2021, 3:26:49 PM7/23/21
to
On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 8:54:53 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 4:19:47 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> > ***4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)***
> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 4:19:47 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> Seriously though, I have heard Punjabi men use it, especially 'din chhipe', exactly like Deedar Singh did. As I mentioned in my previous reply, I have never heard 'din chhupe', never ever. Will you please address just this particular term i.e.do you actually say 'din chhupe'?
>
I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
> May be there would be no confusion for me if 'chhupe' were not combined with 'din'? I totally agree that 'chhipe' would be unacceptable in general, but Deedar Singh saying "din chhipe" may not be so bad? Again, I am not really arguing in his favor, just still wondering about "din chhipe". One follow up question for you, is this written usage common in Urdu, or is it mostly 'din Dhale'?
$$$Urdu writers do use "din chhupe", as AS has done, but I have seen "din Dhale" used more often. B/W, I checked this nazm at ReKhta where it is available in full in all three versions --- Urdu, Hindi and Roman.
aap Urdu version ki to baat hi chhoRiye kyuuN-k vahaaN to chhape, chhipe aur chhupe sab baraabar hotehaiN. :-(
albatta, donoN Hindi aur Roman versions meN sareehan "din chhupe" likkhaa hai, "din chhipe" nahiiN likkhaa!
agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.
aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***
Naseer
Jul 23, 2021, 4:28:59 PM7/23/21
to
Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 20:26:49 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
>
"din" *is* used in the sense of the sun. Few quotes from Platts....
din ćaṛhnā or ćaṛh-jānā, v.n. the sun to rise; din ćhipnā, v.n. The day to disappear, the sun to set:
din ḍhalnā, v.n. the sun to decline
din nikalnā, v.n. The day to appear, the sun to rise, to dawn:
From Urdu LuGhat
din tuluu3 honaa = the sun rising
din Duubnaa = the sun setting
din chhupnaa
http://udb.gov.pk/result.php?search=%D8%AF%D9%86+%DA%86%DA%BE%D9%BE%D9%86%D8%A7&posi=offline&__ncforminfo=wOr3hFVYQGH_itezBZZ5u-hZRphQ03B6x1_lug4L5WXtWKemrcwxaBwN3GgneufyDXKMbP3BHbtNDRuOy6T3TPaGtijejEAwax57A1N4ggk%3D
To add to all this, in Punjabi one has "dyuuN" meaning "sun". At least this is the word I've know since childhood. I have always thought that "din" has a connection with "dyuuN".
>
> agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.
>
> aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***
I agree with the above.
Naseer
On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 20:26:49 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
>
din ćaṛhnā or ćaṛh-jānā, v.n. the sun to rise; din ćhipnā, v.n. The day to disappear, the sun to set:
din ḍhalnā, v.n. the sun to decline
din nikalnā, v.n. The day to appear, the sun to rise, to dawn:
From Urdu LuGhat
din tuluu3 honaa = the sun rising
din Duubnaa = the sun setting
din chhupnaa
http://udb.gov.pk/result.php?search=%D8%AF%D9%86+%DA%86%DA%BE%D9%BE%D9%86%D8%A7&posi=offline&__ncforminfo=wOr3hFVYQGH_itezBZZ5u-hZRphQ03B6x1_lug4L5WXtWKemrcwxaBwN3GgneufyDXKMbP3BHbtNDRuOy6T3TPaGtijejEAwax57A1N4ggk%3D
To add to all this, in Punjabi one has "dyuuN" meaning "sun". At least this is the word I've know since childhood. I have always thought that "din" has a connection with "dyuuN".
>
> agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.
>
> aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***
Naseer
Message has been deleted
Naseer
Jul 23, 2021, 4:54:45 PM7/23/21
to
On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 17:58:23 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> ***Very interesting findings, Naseer sahib!
>
> in baatoN se saaf zaahir hai k jis zamaane meN ham rah rahe haiN, aihl-e-Urdu ki nazar meN is lafz ka talaffuz "chhupna" hi ravaa hai, "chhipna" ravaa nahiiN hai. yaqeenan, AS ne bhi "din chhupe" hi kahaa hoga, "din chhipe" nahiiN kahaa hoga (more on it later).
>
> jahaaN tak mera Khayaal hai, yahaaN "muGhalpura" se muraad "Shahjahaanabad" (ya'ani Dihlii) hai. voh "MuGhalpura" jo Lahore ke paas mashriq ki jaanib vaaqe'a hai --- cannot be. :-)
>
> Raj Kumar***
Yes, I knew it would not be the Mughalpura of Lahore. Wikipedia has this to mention on the topic. I think Shahjahanabad came afterwards.
> ***Very interesting findings, Naseer sahib!
>
> in baatoN se saaf zaahir hai k jis zamaane meN ham rah rahe haiN, aihl-e-Urdu ki nazar meN is lafz ka talaffuz "chhupna" hi ravaa hai, "chhipna" ravaa nahiiN hai. yaqeenan, AS ne bhi "din chhupe" hi kahaa hoga, "din chhipe" nahiiN kahaa hoga (more on it later).
>
> jahaaN tak mera Khayaal hai, yahaaN "muGhalpura" se muraad "Shahjahaanabad" (ya'ani Dihlii) hai. voh "MuGhalpura" jo Lahore ke paas mashriq ki jaanib vaaqe'a hai --- cannot be. :-)
>
> Raj Kumar***
"The Delhi Sultanate was ruled by Alauddin Khalji, who had taken the throne of Delhi after assassinating his uncle in 1296. The Chagatai Khanate controlled Central Asia, and its leader since the 1280s was Duwa Khan who was second in command of Kaidu. Duwa was active in Afghanistan, and attempted to extend Mongol rule into India. Negudari governor Abdullah, who was a son of Chagatai Khan's great grandson, invaded Punjab with his force in 1292, but their advance guard under Ulghu was defeated and taken prisoner by Alauddin's predecessor Jalaluddin Khalji. Around 4,000 Mongol soldiers (called Mughals in Delhi) who surrendered converted to Islam. The suburb they lived in was appropriately named *Mughalpura*. Chagatai tumens were beaten by the Delhi Sultanate several times in 1296-1297. The Mongols thereafter repeatedly invaded northern India. On at least two occasions, they came in strength."
Also see, "History of Medieval India" by V.D. Mahaja, second paragraph of the link.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JnscEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=Mughalpura+Delhi+India&source=bl&ots=2PodfyHMZJ&sig=ACfU3U0uGcLlu4REKN1gBfiT7HsBjZ_ezQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrg6HGiPrxAhXbRkEAHczyAJo4ChDoATAJegQIFRAD#v=onepage&q=Mughalpura%20Delhi%20India&f=false
Naseer
Message has been deleted
Zoya
Jul 24, 2021, 1:29:42 PM7/24/21
to
> $$$ ZS, In answer to your direct question as posed above, my response is the following:
>
>
> I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
>
>
> $$$Urdu writers do use "din chhupe", as AS has done, but I have seen "din Dhale" used more often. B/W, I checked this nazm at ReKhta where it is available in full in all three versions --- Urdu, Hindi and Roman.
> aap Urdu version ki to baat hi chhoRiye kyuuN-k vahaaN to chhape, chhipe aur chhupe sab baraabar hotehaiN. :-(
> albatta, donoN Hindi aur Roman versions meN sareehan "din chhupe" likkhaa hai, "din chhipe" nahiiN likkhaa!
Thanks Prof RK, this seems to pretty much wrap up the discussion. To summarize, 'chhupnaa' is the accepted pronunciation currently, and has been for a while, in Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. 'chhipnaa' has its roots perhaps in classical Hindi, and may have somehow migrated to parts of Punjab. As I said earlier, I have always heard 'din chhipe' in Punjabi, I consider it sort of a compound word, an exception to the rule. If this is somehow connected to classical Lakhnavi Urdu or Hindi, even better! :)
> aap Urdu version ki to baat hi chhoRiye kyuuN-k vahaaN to chhape, chhipe aur chhupe sab baraabar hotehaiN. :-(
> albatta, donoN Hindi aur Roman versions meN sareehan "din chhupe" likkhaa hai, "din chhipe" nahiiN likkhaa!
> agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.
> aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***
"ajj din chaRhyaa tere rang vargaa"! :)
Continuing with the thought....... this particular misraa by Shiv inspired a pretty nice Bollywood song a few years ago, maybe I'll put it on my next request list for Irfan sahib in the she'r-o-naghmaa thread!
It's been fun. Thank you for the $$$ response. :)
From Akhtar Sheerani to Shiv Kumar Batalavi (via Deedar Singh Pardesi),
_______ Zoya :-)
Message has been deleted
Naseer
Oct 11, 2021, 6:39:44 AM10/11/21
to
On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 20:26:49 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
>
> I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
>
>
> aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***
Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
If you happened to be Shashi Kapoor, then you would use the verb "chhipnaa". But if you were Younis Parvez, You would use "chhupnaa"!:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKncAb9k2JE&ab_channel=HasteRaho (at 2:15)
Naseer
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