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angraizi alfaz udru main
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Bekas Murray
Feb 17, 2016, 8:14:19 PM2/17/16
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kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
Asad
Feb 18, 2016, 4:35:08 AM2/18/16
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On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 6:14:19 AM UTC+5, Bekas Murray wrote:
> kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
Janab Bekas Sahab
> kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
mere khyal main to urdu main koi lafz sakoon se shuru nahin hota. Na hi mere khyal main koi aise behr hai jiska aaghaaz sakoon se hota ho. to aap ko mutaharrik avaaz hi se lafz shuru karna parege. aise alfaaz angrezi hi kya sanskrit men bhi hain..maslan Krishna, Brij, Brahmin etc :-) har ek to aise hi baandhen ge jaise urdu/hindi men bolte hain.
aam taur par aise alfaz usool ye hai keh lafz ke pehli harf ko mutaharrik kar dete hain lekin /s/ se shuru hone walon se pehle /i/ laga kar /s/ ki awaz ko sakoon hi men rakhte hain.
is men bhi farq ho sakta hai, maslan angrezi 'bridge' ko to shayad ham 'birij' baandhen lekin Sanskrit 'brij' ko shayad 'birj' baandhna hi theek ho.
ye sab mere hi khyalaat hain. dekhiye asatizah kya kehte hain :-)
Asad
Feb 18, 2016, 4:37:22 AM2/18/16
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On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 6:14:19 AM UTC+5, Bekas Murray wrote:
> kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
Aatish ki ghazal ka matla hai:
fareb-e-husn se gabruu musalmaaN ka chalan bigra
khuda ki yaad bhoola shaikh, buut se BARHAMAN bigra
Naseer
Feb 18, 2016, 4:45:25 AM2/18/16
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On Thursday, 18 February 2016 01:14:19 UTC, Bekas Murray wrote:
> kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
Bekas Murray SaaHib, the poet who comes to mind straight away who has used a lot of English words, to good effect, is Akbar Ilahabadi. A few relevant examples are given below. As far as I know, he has used an intervening vowel within the English word.
> kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
chhoR liTrechar ko, apnii hisTarii ko bhuul jaa
shaiKH-o-masjid se ta3alluq tark kar iskuul jaa
chaar din kii zindagii hai, koft se kyaa faaidah
khaa Dabal roTii, kalarkii kar, KHushii se phuul jaa
.................
nihaayat Hikmat-aagiiN aap kii ispiich hotii hai
mazah sharbat kaa de jaatii hai go vuh piich hotii hai
.................
qatl se pahle kaloraa-faarm
shukr hai un kii mihr-baanii kaa
...................
Naseer
vij...@gmail.com
Feb 18, 2016, 4:38:39 PM2/18/16
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On Thursday, 18 February 2016 09:45:25 UTC, Naseer wrote:
>
> qatl se pahle kaloraa-faarm
> shukr hai un kii mihr-baanii kaa
>
>
Naseer sahib,
>
> qatl se pahle kaloraa-faarm
> shukr hai un kii mihr-baanii kaa
>
>
It needs to be kaloraa-faaram, ya faarum, for the metric requirements.
I have a related question about English words in Urdu, something that has bugged me for a while. How and why did the English word 'philosopher' become filaasfer and not stay philaaspher? The word philosohpy/philosopher came to English from Latin and Greek via French and does't have roots in Persian language, so it can't be explained as a reverse corruption.
Best,
Vijay
Message has been deleted
Naseer
Feb 18, 2016, 5:36:33 PM2/18/16
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bhaa'ii aap mujh Ghariib se "metric requirements" ke baare meN puuchh kar kyoN sharmindah kar rahe haiN? vazn ke akhaaRe ke pahlvaan to aap haiN!
haaN, itnaa kah saktaa huuN kih lafz ke aaxir meN do consonant ikhaTTe aa sakte haiN, jaise "fikr". isii tarH "faarm" bhii mumkin hai lekin maiN yih nahiiN jaantaa kih is shi3r meN kaloraa-faarm hai yaa kaloraa-faaram.
jahaaN tak aap ke duusre savaal kaa ta3alluq hai, "filaasifar" Urdu meN (mere xayaal meN) taazah-vaarid hai. is se puraane alfaaz "falsafii" aur "failasuuf" haiN jin meN avvulu_zzikr ziyaadah 3aam hai.
makr kaa baanii jhuuT kaa sar-taaj
sunte the failasuuf dekhaa aaj
Shauq
These "falsafah" related words have came from Greek via Arabic/Persian into Urdu.
Naseer
Message has been deleted
Asad
Feb 19, 2016, 3:13:10 AM2/19/16
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aap se kuch ikhtelaaf hai. Urdu men koi desi lafz aisa nahiin hai jis ke aakhir main 2 saakin hon. balke wo log jo zara kam parhe likhe hon, ya jinko apni arbi aur farsi daanii par itna ghamand na ho wo to aisa alfaaz main bhi pehla saakin mutaharrik kar dete hain. jaise rasam, fikar aur ye sahi samjha jata hai (haan kuch alfaaz main ye sakht ma'yoob lagta hai, jaise lafz, waqt waghaira). bahar-haal in alfaaz ko sha'iri main unke asli talaffuz par hi bandha jata hai.
lekin ye usool agar ham angrezi alfaaz par lagoo kar den to taqreer ka husn maand par jayega. kiunke angrezi alfaaz ko ham ne apni zabaan main lia hi apne sound pattern ke mutabiq hai. is ka koi usuul to banaya nahin ja sakta lekin aise alfaaz jin men long vowel ke bad /r/ hai un men aam tor par urdu punjabi men bhi /r/ ghayb ho jata hai.
ye lafz 'faarm' ya 'faaram' ki bajaye 'faam' ke vazn par bandha jaye ga. likhne men to meem se pehle re aaye ga. lekin uska vazn nahin shumar hoga.. ye mera khyaal hai. aur ikhtelaaf ka izhar to main karta hi mazeed seekhne ke lie hun.
vij...@gmail.com
Feb 19, 2016, 4:59:43 AM2/19/16
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Thanks once again,
Vijay
Message has been deleted
Naseer
Feb 19, 2016, 7:20:01 AM2/19/16
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aap baRii xushii se ixtilaaf kiijiye lekin yih chaupaal Urdu zabaan aur shaa3irii kii hai aur jahaaN tak merii samajh-buujh hai, yahaaN ham mi3yaarii zabaan ko zer-i-baHz laate haiN kyoNkih hamaare shu3araa ne mi3yaarii zabaan hii meN shaa3irii kii hai aur karte haiN. lihaazaa is qism kii zabaan aur shaa3irii meN...
arbi = 3arabii
aisa alfaaz main = aise alfaaz meN (yih mere xayaal meN laa-shu3urrii taur pih aap ne likhaa ho gaa).
rasam = rasm
fikar = fikr
ghayb = Ghaa'ib va-Ghairah
mujhe aap se ittiffaaq hai kih "faarm" ko "faam" ke vazn par hii baaNdhaa jaataa hai.
Naseer
Asad
Feb 22, 2016, 2:18:41 AM2/22/16
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Aap merii baat ko bilkul nazar-andaaz kar ga'e haiN. maiN ne in alfaaz ke talaffuz ka zikr kar ke yih bhii 3arz kiaa thaa keh "bahar-haal in alfaaz ko sha'iri main unke asli talaffuz par hi bandha jata hai." aur maiN ne sirf itnaa kahaa thaa keh angrezii alfaaz par ye usuul laaguu nahiiN ho sakta. lekin maiN aapkaa shukr-guzaar huuN keh aap ne mauzuu3 ko nazar-andaaz karte hue merii zabaan ki sihat ke Havaale se raahnumaii farmaa di. aur meri guftaar main musta3mil Gair me3yaarii alfaaz ki nishaandahi bhii farmaa dii.
shauq huaa keh maiN apni zabaan ko durust kar luuN aur chuuNkeh aap Obaidullah Baig sahab ki zabaan ko me3yaarii kehte haiN to unhii se kuch siikh lun. to maiN ne unkii yeh video dobaarah dekhii.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBODUJCJOmw
lekiin yeh dekh kar maayuusii huii keh Obaidullah sahab kitnii Gair me3yaari Urdu bol rahe the. aap kii taqleed meN maiN to me3yaar us hi ko maantaa huuN jiskaa tazkirah aapne kiaa. lekin shaa'id Obaidullah Baig sahab ko kabhii mauqa3 na mila keh unkii aap ke saath ek nishist hojaatii varna voh bhii apnii zabaan Thiik kar lete. aisii faash ghalatiaaN dekh kar to mere dil se unkii izzat bilkul hi khatm hoga'ii. misaal ke taur par aap 'khatm' ko 'khatam' (23.24), 'ma3zirat' ko 'maazrat'(24.09) farmaa rahe the. maiN ne sochaa keh chalo inhon ne ye alfaaz kabhi apne baRoN se ya kisi Karachi men Urdu bolne wale se na sune hoNge aur chuuNkeh urdu meN a3raab lagaane ka chalan nahiiN hai to jaisaa unhon ne Theek samjhaa hogaa waisaa hi paRh lia hogaa..lekin yeh dekh kar to merii hairat ka koi maqaam na raha jab unhon ne 'mamnuun' kii jaga 'mashkoor' (12.01) keh kar apne 3ilm ka bhaanDaa phoR dia.
is parogaraam ka duusra hissa dekha to merii hairat nafrat meN badal ga'ii jab aap ne 'dafn' ko 'dafan' (1.13), 'shukr' ko 'shukar' (8.40) kahaa. abhi maiN is kaifiyyat se hi na nikal paayaa tha keh mausuuf 'teHt-ul-baHr' ko 'teht-ul-bahar' (4.04) bol ga'e. aur munafiqat ki intahaa dekhiye keh parogaram ke shuruu3 meN apnii urdu-daani kii DiiNgen maar rahe the. duusaraa hissa yeh hai:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsgFnJi4kjo
al-amaan, al-hafiiz!
lekin chhoRiye in Gair-me3yaarii urdu bolne walon ki baateN. ye parogaraam dekh kar meN aapki sharaafat ka qaa'il ho gayaa hun. mujhe yaqiin hai keh ye parogaram aap ka dekhaa huaa hai. lekin aapne is parogaraam ka zikr sirf us hi had tak kia jahaN tak Ubaidullah sahab ne me3yaari urdu bolii..aur inkii Gair-me3yaarii zabaan par pardah daal diaa.
sach hai..."tum zameen vaaloN ki 3aib poshii karo, khuda tumharii 3aib poshii kare gaa"
3aqeedat-mand
Asad
Naseer
Feb 23, 2016, 8:42:06 AM2/23/16
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janaab-i-muHtaram, mujhe afsos hai kih aap ke paiGhaam meN tanz ziyaadah hai aur paiGhaam kam! xair...
aap ne jab farmaayaa thaa, " "bahar-haal in alfaaz ko sha'iri main unke asli talaffuz par hi bandha jata hai." to maiN ne bhii apne javaab meN aap kii baat kii taa'iid hii kii thii. agar mujhe in ek-aadh alfaaz kii tasHiiH maqsuud hotii to maiN is kaa zikr pahle hii kar detaa kyoNkih yih alfaaz aap apnii taHriir meN is se pahle bhii isti3maal kar chuke haiN.
rahii baat janaab-i-Ubaidullah Baig marHuum kii. merii Haqiir raa'e meN vuh apne baare meN nihaayat inkisaarii se kaam le rahe the aur baqaul aap ke "DiiNgeN" nahiiN maar rahe the. lihaazaa unheN "munaafiq" gardaan_naa saraasar be-insaafii hai.
maiN ne in laRiyoN meN "Ubaidullah Baig", "Iftikhar Arif" aur "Haseena Moin" ko zer-i-baHs is liye laayaa hai kih in logoN kii maadarii zabaan Urdu hai aur yih un logoN meN shumaar hote haiN jin kii bol-chaal ko 3avaam 3izzat kii nigaahoN se dekhte haiN aur un par rashk karte haiN. in se bhii bihtar bolne vaale yaqiin-an hoN ge. maiN ne hargiz yih nahiiN kahaa kih in kii zabaan naqaa'is se paak hai!
Asad SaaHib, mash_huur kahaavat hai kih "bandah bashar hai". is ko agar aap apne zihn meN rakheN to aap i3tiraaf kareN ge kih aap kisii bhii shaa3ir/adiib/shaxsiyyat kii taHriir-o-guftaar meN ko'ii nah ko'ii Ghalatii zaruur DhuuND leN ge xvaah vuh Bahadur Shah Zafar, Vaajid Ali Shah, DaaGh, Amir Mina'ii VaGhariah kyoN nah ho. to yih bandah kis baaGh kii muulii hai? aap ko merii taHriiroN meN darjanoN naqs mileN ge. is liye merii nishast Ubaidullah Baig ke saath (jo ab vaise bhii naa-mumkin hai) be-ma3nii sii baat hai.
Haqiiqat yih hai kih in tiinoN kii baat-chiit se maiN ne jo iqtibaasaat liye haiN vuh yih saabit karte haiN kih yih Urdu bolne vaale vaisii hii Ghair-mi3yaarii zabaan bol rahe haiN jaisii, aap aur diigar aHbaab ke ba-qaul, Panjaab vaale bolte haiN. yih alag baat hai kih aap ke mutaabiq in jaisoN kii zabaan "Panjaabii-zadah" aur natiijat-an "aaluudah" ho ga'ii ho gii. zaahir hai in laRiyoN meN (maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai/aap idhar aa'o aur mere saath baat karo/baahar vs baahir) maiN kisii Punjabi kii taHriir yaa tarz-i-guftaar kii misaal to nahiiN de saktaa thaa.
jii haaN yih donoN video mere dekhe hu'e haiN aur maiN hii ne in videos kaa zikr kiyaa hai. maiN ne in logoN ke video is liye pesh nahiiN kiye kih kah sakuuN, "dekhiye, kitnii achchhii Urdu bol rahe haiN yih log", balkih is liye kih "dekhiye, in logoN kii zabaan Urdu hai aur Punjabi nahiiN aur phir bhii yih vahii "GhalatiyaaN" kar rahe haiN jin kaa sihraa PunjaabiyoN ke sar pih Daalaa jaataa hai". isii liye to mujhe Ubaidullah Baig marHuum kii kotaahiyoN par pardah Daalne kii ko'ii zaruurat nahiiN pesh aa'ii.
ab in laRiyoN ke tavassut se kam az kam yih to saabit ho rahaa hai kih PunjabiyoN par yih ilzaam-taraashii be-bunyaad hai. aa'indah bhii agar yahaaN (yaa kahiiN aur) kisii ne aisii hii be-bunyaad baateN kiiN jo mere nazdiik "stereotypical" haiN aur mere paas un ko radd karne ke liye mauzuuN mavaad hai to maiN zaruur apnaa nuqtah-i-nazar un ke saamne rakhuuN gaa(aur un kii taHriiroN par kaRii nazar bhii:-))
aap ne apnii is taHriir meN nihaayat iHtiyaat bartii hai...lekin lafz "intahaa" nahiiN balkih "intihaa" hai!:-) ab to aap maan jaa'eN ge kih maiN "pardah-poshii" karne vaaloN meN se nahiiN!:-)
maiN aap kaa shukr-guzxaar huuN kih aap se shaa'istah aur muhazzab andaaz meN baat-chiit hotii rahii hai. sone par suhaagah yih kih aap ne merii shaan meN ek-aadh shi3r bhii kah Daalaa hai!:-)
aap kaa "shubh-chintak"
Naseer
pas-navisht....aaj se maiN Urdu vaaloN kii baat-chiit baRe Ghaur se sunuuN gaa aur juuNhii kisii ne "baahir" kahaa, is vaaqi3e ko noT (note) kar luuN gaa.
Asad
Feb 24, 2016, 12:26:06 AM2/24/16
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mujhe afsos hai keh hamaari guftgu men na-khushgawari aa gaee. lekin dekhiye to kih jin baaton ko aap ghalati keh keh kar pakar rahe hain wo dar-asl ghalatian nahin hain. mauzoo kuch bhi ho aap kabhi 'mashkoor' ko le kar beth jatay hain kabhi 'fikar' ko. lagta hai hamarii lab-kushaii aapko pasand nahin :-)
janaab sahih kya hai wo zabaan bolne wala hi bataye ga. aur koi bhi punjabion ko 'rasam' 'khatam' 'asal' kehne par nahin tok sakta lekin 'ghalt' 'lafaz' aur 'wakat' kehna bura lagta hai...magar is par bhi tokta koi nahin hai..hamko maloom hai keh jaise ham se punjabi nahin boli jati unse urdu nahin boli jati. ab agar aap yeh kahen ge keh 'agar rasam theek hai to lafaz kiun nahin?' to iska jawab ye hai keh urdu bolne walay pehle ko rava aur doosre ko ma'yuub jaante hain. ab aap nahin keh sakte keh donon ghalat hain ya donon sahiih.
Ubaidullah Beg marhoom ki bhi aap ne ghalati hi bataii..aray janaab wo ghalatii par nahin hain unkii zabaan hai wo theek bol rahe hain. agar aap ghaur karen to is hi video main unhon ne 'main' ke saath 'ne' ka mazkoora istemaal bhi bahut ta'ammul se kia. ya'ne wo inki zabaan par to tha lekin kehte hue wo hichkichaye the.
aap ne jo meri ghalatian pakrin un men se ek ye thi:
"aisa alfaaz main"
to agar main aapki ye ghalatii pakar kar shor machata to kaisa lagta?
"maiN ne in laRiyoN meN "Ubaidullah Baig", "Iftikhar Arif" aur "Haseena Moin" ko zer-i-baHs is liye laayaa hai"
main ne laayaa? kya ye me'yaari hai? kya ye sha'irii men istemaal hogi? haan aap ne bhi ghair sha'uurii taur par hi kaha hoga yaqeenan.
aakhir men wo do misra'e (jinko shi'r kehna sha'irii ki tauheen hai) bhi aap hi ke tanz bhare peghaam ka radd-e-amal the. is laRee men main ne jo ikhtelaaf aap se kia tha wo sirf ye tha keh 'form' ko 'faaram' ya 'faarm' (aur khas taur par 'faarm') nahin baandha jaa sakta..iski jo aap ne taujeeh pesh ki thi wo mere khiyaal men ghalat thi. is ka jawaab to kissi taur nahin ho sakta tha jo aap ne dia.
Regards
Naseer
Feb 24, 2016, 6:40:08 AM2/24/16
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On Wednesday, 24 February 2016 05:26:06 UTC, Asad wrote:
muHtaram Asad SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> mujhe afsos hai keh hamaari guftgu men na-khushgawari aa gaee. lekin dekhiye to kih jin baaton ko aap ghalati keh keh kar pakar rahe hain wo dar-asl ghalatian nahin hain. mauzoo kuch bhi ho aap kabhi 'mashkoor' ko le kar beth jatay hain kabhi 'fikar' ko. lagta hai hamarii lab-kushaii aapko pasand nahin :-)
>
mujhe yaqiin hai kih hamaare maa-bain jo baat-chiit ho rahii hai aur jo aa'indah ho gii, vuh tahziib ke daa'ire hii meN rahe gii--inshaa' Allah, aur naa-xushgavaar maa-Haul nahiiN paidaa ho gaa.
aap ne ek daf3ah farmaayaa thaa kih..
"Mairay khyaal men Arooz ke pecheeda usool bana dene ki bajaye ek ye usool hona chahiye ke kisi lafz ko jaise koi ahle zabaan uske mahal ke mutabiq bolay usi wazn par baandha jaye. Aap kya kehte hain?"
ab aap hii bataa'iye kih ahl-i-zabaan kii ta3riif kyaa hai? kyaa har ahl-i-zabaan kii ek hii tarz-i-guftaar hai? agar nahiiN to aap kis kii taqliid kareN ge. kisii zamaane meN Dillii vaale Lakhnau vaaloN se ittifaaq nahiiN kar sakte the, ab is daur meN muta3addad 3ilaaqoN ke ahl-i-zabaan ek duusre se kaise ittifaaq kareN ge? Bhopal aur Dillii ke (shaayad kuchh) ahl-i-zabaan "aap karo" kahte haiN aur aap "aap kiijiye" kahte haiN, to hameN kis ahl-i-zabaan kaa intixaab karnaa ho gaa? Hyderabad (Hindustan) vaale "q" ko "x" kii aavaaz dete haiN aur har duusre jumle meN "kaa'e-kuu, kaa'e-kuu" kii takraar hotii hai aur "hii" kii bajaa'e "-ch" isti3maal karte haiN to yih bhii to ahl-i-zabaan hii haiN! Karachi, Hyderabad, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad aur diigar maqaamaat kaa maiN ne abhii zikr kiyaa hii nahiiN. xud Karachi meN ahl-i-zabaan kii ka'ii bastiyaaN haiN jin kii zabaan yak-saaN nahiiN.
maiN ne sochaa kih Asad SaaHib, jin ke "Awadhi/Lakhnavi ears" haiN aur vuh (maa-shaa Allah) ek shaa3ir bhii haiN, is liye unheN zeb nahiiN detaa agar vuh aise alfaaz isti3maal kareN jinheN mi3yaarii nahiiN samjhaa jaataa. ALUP meN vaise bhii ek riit chalii aa'ii hai kih ham ek duusre kii kotaahii/Ghalatii kii taraf ishaarah kar dete haiN. is meN kisii qism kii baRaa'ii yaa bar-tarii qat3-an maqsuud nahiiN hotii. kisii vaqt aisaa bhii hotaa hai kih duusraa apnii Ghalatii se vaaqif hii nahiiN hotaa. lihaazaa ham sab ko kuchh nah kuchh siikhne ko mil jaataa hai.
> janaab sahih kya hai wo zabaan bolne wala hi bataye ga. aur koi bhi punjabion ko 'rasam' 'khatam' 'asal' kehne par nahin tok sakta lekin 'ghalt' 'lafaz' aur 'wakat' kehna bura lagta hai...magar is par bhi tokta koi nahin hai..hamko maloom hai keh jaise ham se punjabi nahin boli jati unse urdu nahin boli jati. ab agar aap yeh kahen ge keh 'agar rasam theek hai to lafaz kiun nahin?' to iska jawab ye hai keh urdu bolne walay pehle ko rava aur doosre ko ma'yuub jaante hain. ab aap nahin keh sakte keh donon ghalat hain ya donon sahiih.
>
agar ko'ii ahl-i-zabaan achchhii Urdu boltaa hai yaa ko'ii Punjabi achchhii Punjabi boltaa hai to yih ko'ii baRii baat nahiiN. tavaqqu3 yahii hotii hai kih har ko'ii apnii zabaan achchhii tarH hii bole. lekin meraa zaatii tajribah yahii rahaa hai kih paRhe likhe Punjabi 3umum-an beshtar ahl-i-zabaan se achchhii Urdu bolte haiN. mujhe ma3luum nahiiN kih aap Punjabi bol sakte haiN yaa nahiiN (aur Punjab meN rah kar 3ain mumkin hai kih aap Punjabi bol sakte hoN ge) lekin maiN itnaa zxaruur kahuuN gaa kih laakhoN-karoRoN Punjabi Urdu bol sakte haiN. matlab yih kih "un se Urdu bolii jaatii hai"!
aap farmaa rahe haiN kih Urdu bolne vaaloN ke nazdiik "rasam", "xatam", "asal" vaGhairah ravaa ke zumre meN aate haiN lekin "Ghalt", "lafaz" aur "wakat" ma3yuub haiN. subHaan Allah, yih vahii qaa3idah to nahiiN jis ke mutaabiq "jis kii laaThii" hotii hai "us kii bhaiNs!" hotii hai. ya3nii Urdu bolne vaaloN ke liye sab-kuchh ravaa hai jise unhoN ne baGhair kisii mantiq ke jaa'iz qaraar de diyaa hai! apne liye ek usuul, duusroN ke liye duusraa!
aap farmaate haiN kih, "aur koi bhi punjabion ko 'rasam' 'khatam' 'asal' kehne par nahin tok sakta lekin 'ghalt' 'lafaz' aur 'wakat' kehna bura lagta hai...magar is par bhi tokta koi nahin hai." aap to nah Tokne kii baat kar rahe haiN lekin meraa zaatii tajribah hai kih Urdu bolne/likhne meN har Ghalatii, xvaah vuh sarf-o-naHv kii ho, talaffuz kii ho yaa muHaavare kii, is kaa manba3 Punjab hii samjhaa jaataa hai. According to Brij Mohan Dattatriya Kaifi Dehlavi..
"janaab Munshi Ahmed Ali SaaHib Shauq Qidvaa'ii jaisaa adiib bhii Punjab par dast-i-shafqat baRhaa'e baGhair nah rah sakaa. yih maanaa kih Ghussah un ko asl meN Navvaab Haidar Yaar Jang par thaa, baras paRe be-chaare Punjab par. farmaayaa hai".
""sansanii-xez" aur "rihaa'ish" vaGhairah se baHs fuzuul hai. yih juhalaa ke taraashe hu'e haiN. fusHaa in kaa isti3maal nahiiN karte. is qism ke lachchar alfaaz kaa iijaad aksar Punjab se hu'aa hai jahaaN kii Urdu bahut xaam hai". ab maiN apnii is posT meN nahiiN likhuuN gaa kih ahl-i-xzabaan ne yih "lachchar alfaaz" kahaaN kahaaN barte haiN.
> aap ne jo meri ghalatian pakrin un men se ek ye thi:
>
> "aisa alfaaz main"
>
> to agar main aapki ye ghalatii pakar kar shor machata to kaisa lagta?
> "maiN ne in laRiyoN meN "Ubaidullah Baig", "Iftikhar Arif" aur "Haseena Moin" ko zer-i-baHs is liye laayaa hai"
>
> main ne laayaa? kya ye me'yaari hai? kya ye sha'irii men istemaal hogi? haan aap ne bhi ghair sha'uurii taur par hi kaha hoga yaqeenan.
>
maiN pahle hii 3arz kar chukaa huuN kih "bandah bashar hai" aur zaahir hai maiN bhii aap kii tarH xudaa kaa ek bandah hii huuN aur i3tiraaf kartaa huuN aur kar bhii chukaa huuN kih merii taHriiroN meN aap ko darjanoN GhalatiyaaN mileN gii. go maiN koshish zaruur kartaa huuN kih aisaa nah ho.
jis Ghalatii kii taraf aap ne ishaarah kiyaa hai vuh nah to maiN ne shu3urii taur pih kii hai aur nah hii laa-shu3urii taur pih (aur nah hii vuh mere taHt-i-shu3uur meN thii :-)). hu'aa yih hai kih maiN ne ek jumlah "maiN ne" se shruu3 kiyaa aur ba3d meN ko'ii aur baat zihn meN aa ga'ii aur jumlah badal diyaa lekin jumle ke sire ko nahiiN badlaa. mere xayaal meN....maiN ne laayaa- qism kaa jumlah nah to ko'ii ahl-i-zabaan boltaa hai aur nah hii ko'ii Ghair ahl-i-zabaan.
> aakhir men wo do misra'e (jinko shi'r kehna sha'irii ki tauheen hai) bhi aap hi ke tanz bhare peghaam ka radd-e-amal the. is laRee men main ne jo ikhtelaaf aap se kia tha wo sirf ye tha keh 'form' ko 'faaram' ya 'faarm' (aur khas taur par 'faarm') nahin baandha jaa sakta..iski jo aap ne taujeeh pesh ki thi wo mere khiyaal men ghalat thi. is ka jawaab to kissi taur nahin ho sakta tha jo aap ne dia.
>
> Regards
dekhiye Asad SaaHib, maiN ko'ii shaa3ir vaa3ir to huuN nahiiN. is liye mujhe nahiiN patah kih kaun-saa lafz kaise baaNdhaa jaataa hai. maiN sirf yih 3arz karne kii koshish kar rahaa thaa kih Urdu meN aise bahut se alfaaz haiN jin ke aaxir meN ek se ziyaadah Huruuf jam3 hote haiN. shaayad maiN ne "fikr" kii misaal dii thii. darxvaast ek aur aisaa lafz hai. bas yahii maiN kahnaa chaahtaa thaa.
aaxirii baar :-)
"pakar" ya3nii pukaar to shaayad typo ho gaa.
"beth" aur "peghaam" to Professor Gyan Chand Jain ke ba-qaul Bhopali lahjah maHsuus hotaa hai!
"khiyaal" yaa "xayaal"?
iraadat-mand,
Naseer
muHtaram Asad SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> mujhe afsos hai keh hamaari guftgu men na-khushgawari aa gaee. lekin dekhiye to kih jin baaton ko aap ghalati keh keh kar pakar rahe hain wo dar-asl ghalatian nahin hain. mauzoo kuch bhi ho aap kabhi 'mashkoor' ko le kar beth jatay hain kabhi 'fikar' ko. lagta hai hamarii lab-kushaii aapko pasand nahin :-)
>
aap ne ek daf3ah farmaayaa thaa kih..
"Mairay khyaal men Arooz ke pecheeda usool bana dene ki bajaye ek ye usool hona chahiye ke kisi lafz ko jaise koi ahle zabaan uske mahal ke mutabiq bolay usi wazn par baandha jaye. Aap kya kehte hain?"
ab aap hii bataa'iye kih ahl-i-zabaan kii ta3riif kyaa hai? kyaa har ahl-i-zabaan kii ek hii tarz-i-guftaar hai? agar nahiiN to aap kis kii taqliid kareN ge. kisii zamaane meN Dillii vaale Lakhnau vaaloN se ittifaaq nahiiN kar sakte the, ab is daur meN muta3addad 3ilaaqoN ke ahl-i-zabaan ek duusre se kaise ittifaaq kareN ge? Bhopal aur Dillii ke (shaayad kuchh) ahl-i-zabaan "aap karo" kahte haiN aur aap "aap kiijiye" kahte haiN, to hameN kis ahl-i-zabaan kaa intixaab karnaa ho gaa? Hyderabad (Hindustan) vaale "q" ko "x" kii aavaaz dete haiN aur har duusre jumle meN "kaa'e-kuu, kaa'e-kuu" kii takraar hotii hai aur "hii" kii bajaa'e "-ch" isti3maal karte haiN to yih bhii to ahl-i-zabaan hii haiN! Karachi, Hyderabad, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad aur diigar maqaamaat kaa maiN ne abhii zikr kiyaa hii nahiiN. xud Karachi meN ahl-i-zabaan kii ka'ii bastiyaaN haiN jin kii zabaan yak-saaN nahiiN.
maiN ne sochaa kih Asad SaaHib, jin ke "Awadhi/Lakhnavi ears" haiN aur vuh (maa-shaa Allah) ek shaa3ir bhii haiN, is liye unheN zeb nahiiN detaa agar vuh aise alfaaz isti3maal kareN jinheN mi3yaarii nahiiN samjhaa jaataa. ALUP meN vaise bhii ek riit chalii aa'ii hai kih ham ek duusre kii kotaahii/Ghalatii kii taraf ishaarah kar dete haiN. is meN kisii qism kii baRaa'ii yaa bar-tarii qat3-an maqsuud nahiiN hotii. kisii vaqt aisaa bhii hotaa hai kih duusraa apnii Ghalatii se vaaqif hii nahiiN hotaa. lihaazaa ham sab ko kuchh nah kuchh siikhne ko mil jaataa hai.
> janaab sahih kya hai wo zabaan bolne wala hi bataye ga. aur koi bhi punjabion ko 'rasam' 'khatam' 'asal' kehne par nahin tok sakta lekin 'ghalt' 'lafaz' aur 'wakat' kehna bura lagta hai...magar is par bhi tokta koi nahin hai..hamko maloom hai keh jaise ham se punjabi nahin boli jati unse urdu nahin boli jati. ab agar aap yeh kahen ge keh 'agar rasam theek hai to lafaz kiun nahin?' to iska jawab ye hai keh urdu bolne walay pehle ko rava aur doosre ko ma'yuub jaante hain. ab aap nahin keh sakte keh donon ghalat hain ya donon sahiih.
>
aap farmaa rahe haiN kih Urdu bolne vaaloN ke nazdiik "rasam", "xatam", "asal" vaGhairah ravaa ke zumre meN aate haiN lekin "Ghalt", "lafaz" aur "wakat" ma3yuub haiN. subHaan Allah, yih vahii qaa3idah to nahiiN jis ke mutaabiq "jis kii laaThii" hotii hai "us kii bhaiNs!" hotii hai. ya3nii Urdu bolne vaaloN ke liye sab-kuchh ravaa hai jise unhoN ne baGhair kisii mantiq ke jaa'iz qaraar de diyaa hai! apne liye ek usuul, duusroN ke liye duusraa!
aap farmaate haiN kih, "aur koi bhi punjabion ko 'rasam' 'khatam' 'asal' kehne par nahin tok sakta lekin 'ghalt' 'lafaz' aur 'wakat' kehna bura lagta hai...magar is par bhi tokta koi nahin hai." aap to nah Tokne kii baat kar rahe haiN lekin meraa zaatii tajribah hai kih Urdu bolne/likhne meN har Ghalatii, xvaah vuh sarf-o-naHv kii ho, talaffuz kii ho yaa muHaavare kii, is kaa manba3 Punjab hii samjhaa jaataa hai. According to Brij Mohan Dattatriya Kaifi Dehlavi..
"janaab Munshi Ahmed Ali SaaHib Shauq Qidvaa'ii jaisaa adiib bhii Punjab par dast-i-shafqat baRhaa'e baGhair nah rah sakaa. yih maanaa kih Ghussah un ko asl meN Navvaab Haidar Yaar Jang par thaa, baras paRe be-chaare Punjab par. farmaayaa hai".
""sansanii-xez" aur "rihaa'ish" vaGhairah se baHs fuzuul hai. yih juhalaa ke taraashe hu'e haiN. fusHaa in kaa isti3maal nahiiN karte. is qism ke lachchar alfaaz kaa iijaad aksar Punjab se hu'aa hai jahaaN kii Urdu bahut xaam hai". ab maiN apnii is posT meN nahiiN likhuuN gaa kih ahl-i-xzabaan ne yih "lachchar alfaaz" kahaaN kahaaN barte haiN.
> aap ne jo meri ghalatian pakrin un men se ek ye thi:
>
> "aisa alfaaz main"
>
> to agar main aapki ye ghalatii pakar kar shor machata to kaisa lagta?
> "maiN ne in laRiyoN meN "Ubaidullah Baig", "Iftikhar Arif" aur "Haseena Moin" ko zer-i-baHs is liye laayaa hai"
>
> main ne laayaa? kya ye me'yaari hai? kya ye sha'irii men istemaal hogi? haan aap ne bhi ghair sha'uurii taur par hi kaha hoga yaqeenan.
>
jis Ghalatii kii taraf aap ne ishaarah kiyaa hai vuh nah to maiN ne shu3urii taur pih kii hai aur nah hii laa-shu3urii taur pih (aur nah hii vuh mere taHt-i-shu3uur meN thii :-)). hu'aa yih hai kih maiN ne ek jumlah "maiN ne" se shruu3 kiyaa aur ba3d meN ko'ii aur baat zihn meN aa ga'ii aur jumlah badal diyaa lekin jumle ke sire ko nahiiN badlaa. mere xayaal meN....maiN ne laayaa- qism kaa jumlah nah to ko'ii ahl-i-zabaan boltaa hai aur nah hii ko'ii Ghair ahl-i-zabaan.
> aakhir men wo do misra'e (jinko shi'r kehna sha'irii ki tauheen hai) bhi aap hi ke tanz bhare peghaam ka radd-e-amal the. is laRee men main ne jo ikhtelaaf aap se kia tha wo sirf ye tha keh 'form' ko 'faaram' ya 'faarm' (aur khas taur par 'faarm') nahin baandha jaa sakta..iski jo aap ne taujeeh pesh ki thi wo mere khiyaal men ghalat thi. is ka jawaab to kissi taur nahin ho sakta tha jo aap ne dia.
>
> Regards
aaxirii baar :-)
"pakar" ya3nii pukaar to shaayad typo ho gaa.
"beth" aur "peghaam" to Professor Gyan Chand Jain ke ba-qaul Bhopali lahjah maHsuus hotaa hai!
"khiyaal" yaa "xayaal"?
iraadat-mand,
Naseer
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 12:50:04 AM2/25/16
to
Janab Naseer Sahab. Adaab
aap ke likhe ko tukRon men baanT kar javaab deta hun. aur aap ke andaaz men ab mujh nahin likha jaa raha. to dar-guzar farmaa'iye ga.
"ab aap hii bataa'iye kih ahl-i-zabaan kii ta3riif kyaa hai? kyaa har ahl-i-zabaan kii ek hii tarz-i-guftaar hai?"
main pehle bhi keh chuka tha k ahle zabaan main bagher soche likh gayaa. kuch alfaaz aise hain jinko har urdu bolne wala ek hi ada se bolta hai. maslan, hairaani ke izhaar men 'achchaa' khench kar hi bola jata hai..ab agar is 'achcha' ko taqtee men fit karne ke liaye iske alif ki dum kaaT di jaye, matlab aakhri long vowel ko short vowel kar dia jaye to ye ziadati lagti hai. is hi tarha lafz 'nah' ko aksar khench dia jata hai, to is baat par israr karna keh 'nah' ka vazn yak-harfii alfaaz ki avaaz par hi hoga..mujhe theek nahin lagta.
"lekin meraa zaatii tajribah yahii rahaa hai kih paRhe likhe Punjabi 3umum-an beshtar ahl-i-zabaan se achchhii Urdu bolte haiN"
No comments.
"aap farmaa rahe haiN kih Urdu bolne vaaloN ke nazdiik "rasam", "xatam", "asal" vaGhairah ravaa ke zumre meN aate haiN lekin "Ghalt", "lafaz" aur "wakat" ma3yuub haiN. subHaan Allah, yih vahii qaa3idah to nahiiN jis ke mutaabiq "jis kii laaThii" hotii hai "us kii bhaiNs!" hotii hai. ya3nii Urdu bolne vaaloN ke liye sab-kuchh ravaa hai jise unhoN ne baGhair kisii mantiq ke jaa'iz qaraar de diyaa hai! apne liye ek usuul, duusroN ke liye duusraa! "
'Galt' par to koi behs ho nahin sakti. 'galt' Urdu phonology ki bunyaad par bhi Galat hai. haan Punjabi phonology par poora utarta hai. ab ham 'rasam' aur 'xatam' aur 'asal' waghera ke ravaa hone ki baat karen...ya wo ka'ii alfaaz jo Ubaidullah Beg sahab ne 'Galat' ada kie. to is ka javaab bhi phonology hi hai. Urdu jis zabaan ki jadeed shakl hai us main koi aisa lafz nahiin hai jis men aakhir main to saakin consonants aate hon..is tarha ke alfaz taqreer ki ravaani men khalal paida karte hain is lie inke aakhir men pehle sakin consonant ko mutaharrik kar lia jata hai.
ab mujhay ye ma'loom nahin ke 'waqt' aur 'lafz' ka bigaar mayoob kiun samjha jata hai...lekin mere khiyaal main ek to yeh ke in alfaaz ki bigrii hui shakl urdu ke mizaaj ke khilaaf hai..aur doosri ye keh sha'id in alfaz ke aakhri do consonants men pehla consonant aisa hota hai jo apne sukoon ke sath agle consonant ke sakoon ki bhi gunjaish rakhta hai. aise consonants meri soch ke mutabiq 'khe' 'laam' 'fe' 're' waghaira hain..is hi liye urdu bolne walay aam zabaan main 'waqt' ko 'wakht' kehte hain.. lekin ye sab mairii qiyaas aara'ii'aan hain...umeed hai keh kisii mahir-lisaaniaat se rabita ho aur in alfaaz ko saheeh shakl men bolne ki waja ma'loom ho sake.
ba-har-haal, meyaari zabaan ka matlab ye nahin hai keh us zabaan main mustamil doosri zabaanon ke alfaaz unki asl shakal men bole jaayen. balkeh ye hai ke jaise wo zabaan bolne wale bolte hain waise boli jaye.
"maiN pahle hii 3arz kar chukaa huuN kih "bandah bashar hai" aur zaahir hai maiN bhii aap kii tarH xudaa kaa ek bandah hii huuN aur i3tiraaf kartaa huuN aur kar bhii chukaa huuN kih merii taHriiroN meN aap ko darjanoN GhalatiyaaN mileN gii. go maiN koshish zaruur kartaa huuN kih aisaa nah ho. "
yahii to merii duha'ii hai keh janaab to band-e-bashar hain, lekin jab baat is bande par aatii hai to usko farishta tasavvur kar ke chaRhaii kardi jatii hai.
""khiyaal" yaa "xayaal"? "
Arbi men khayaal, urdu main khayaal, khiyaal donon.
Asad
aap ke likhe ko tukRon men baanT kar javaab deta hun. aur aap ke andaaz men ab mujh nahin likha jaa raha. to dar-guzar farmaa'iye ga.
"ab aap hii bataa'iye kih ahl-i-zabaan kii ta3riif kyaa hai? kyaa har ahl-i-zabaan kii ek hii tarz-i-guftaar hai?"
"lekin meraa zaatii tajribah yahii rahaa hai kih paRhe likhe Punjabi 3umum-an beshtar ahl-i-zabaan se achchhii Urdu bolte haiN"
"aap farmaa rahe haiN kih Urdu bolne vaaloN ke nazdiik "rasam", "xatam", "asal" vaGhairah ravaa ke zumre meN aate haiN lekin "Ghalt", "lafaz" aur "wakat" ma3yuub haiN. subHaan Allah, yih vahii qaa3idah to nahiiN jis ke mutaabiq "jis kii laaThii" hotii hai "us kii bhaiNs!" hotii hai. ya3nii Urdu bolne vaaloN ke liye sab-kuchh ravaa hai jise unhoN ne baGhair kisii mantiq ke jaa'iz qaraar de diyaa hai! apne liye ek usuul, duusroN ke liye duusraa! "
ab mujhay ye ma'loom nahin ke 'waqt' aur 'lafz' ka bigaar mayoob kiun samjha jata hai...lekin mere khiyaal main ek to yeh ke in alfaaz ki bigrii hui shakl urdu ke mizaaj ke khilaaf hai..aur doosri ye keh sha'id in alfaz ke aakhri do consonants men pehla consonant aisa hota hai jo apne sukoon ke sath agle consonant ke sakoon ki bhi gunjaish rakhta hai. aise consonants meri soch ke mutabiq 'khe' 'laam' 'fe' 're' waghaira hain..is hi liye urdu bolne walay aam zabaan main 'waqt' ko 'wakht' kehte hain.. lekin ye sab mairii qiyaas aara'ii'aan hain...umeed hai keh kisii mahir-lisaaniaat se rabita ho aur in alfaaz ko saheeh shakl men bolne ki waja ma'loom ho sake.
ba-har-haal, meyaari zabaan ka matlab ye nahin hai keh us zabaan main mustamil doosri zabaanon ke alfaaz unki asl shakal men bole jaayen. balkeh ye hai ke jaise wo zabaan bolne wale bolte hain waise boli jaye.
"maiN pahle hii 3arz kar chukaa huuN kih "bandah bashar hai" aur zaahir hai maiN bhii aap kii tarH xudaa kaa ek bandah hii huuN aur i3tiraaf kartaa huuN aur kar bhii chukaa huuN kih merii taHriiroN meN aap ko darjanoN GhalatiyaaN mileN gii. go maiN koshish zaruur kartaa huuN kih aisaa nah ho. "
""khiyaal" yaa "xayaal"? "
Arbi men khayaal, urdu main khayaal, khiyaal donon.
Asad
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 2:17:48 AM2/25/16
to
"meraa zaatii tajribah hai kih Urdu bolne/likhne meN har Ghalatii, xvaah vuh sarf-o-naHv kii ho, talaffuz kii ho yaa muHaavare kii, is kaa manba3 Punjab hii samjhaa jaataa hai. According to Brij Mohan Dattatriya Kaifi Dehlavi.. "
ji haan. muhaavre ki ghalati par tokna theek hai. kisii zabaan ko uske muhaavre ke saath hi seekhna chaahiye. ye nahin keh alfaaz ka tarjuma yaad kar kar apnii zabaan ke muhaavre men baandh dia jaye. maslan: "light chali ga'ii" ko angrezii men main 'light went' keh dun to angrez to angrez aap bhi mujh par hansen ge. is hi tarha, "main ne ek thappar maara aur wo rone lag paRaa/gayaa" kahen ge to ye Urdu nahin hai balkeh Punjabi ka lafz-ba-lafz Urdu tarjuma hai. Ye Punjabi ka to muhaavra hai lekin Urdu ka nahiin hai. zabaan ko us hi ke muhaavron men bol kar taalib-e-daad hona chahiaye.
Asad
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 4:51:21 AM2/25/16
to
"dekhiye Asad SaaHib, maiN ko'ii shaa3ir vaa3ir to huuN nahiiN. is liye mujhe nahiiN patah kih kaun-saa lafz kaise baaNdhaa jaataa hai. maiN sirf yih 3arz karne kii koshish kar rahaa thaa kih Urdu meN aise bahut se alfaaz haiN jin ke aaxir meN ek se ziyaadah Huruuf jam3 hote haiN. shaayad maiN ne "fikr" kii misaal dii thii. darxvaast ek aur aisaa lafz hai. bas yahii maiN kahnaa chaahtaa thaa. "
aap ghalat samjhe. main ne jis sher ki baat ki thii uska zikr aap ne aise kia:
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 5:13:06 AM2/25/16
to
janaab-i-Asad SaaHib, aadaab 3arxz hai.
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 05:50:04 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Janab Naseer Sahab. Adaab
>Urdu jis zabaan ki jadeed shakl hai us main koi aisa lafz nahiin hai jis >men aakhir main to saakin consonants aate hon..is tarha ke alfaz taqreer ki >ravaani men khalal paida karte hain is lie inke aakhir men pehle sakin >consonant ko mutaharrik kar lia jata hai.
is silsile meN maiN do misaaleN de chukaa huuN jahaaN aaxir meN do consonant aate haiN...fikr, darxvaast. daraxt aur dharm do maziid misaaleN haiN. shaayad maiN aap kii baat Thiik tarH samjh nahiiN paayaa. kyaa aap thoRii vazaaHat kar sakte haiN?
> ba-har-haal, meyaari zabaan ka matlab ye nahin hai keh us zabaan main >mustamil doosri zabaanon ke alfaaz unki asl shakal men bole jaayen. balkeh >ye hai ke jaise wo zabaan bolne wale bolte hain waise boli jaye.
>
lekin Asad SaaHib, yahaaN ham Urdu bol nahiiN rahe balkih likh rahe haiN. ek baar pahle bhii 3arz kar chukaa huuN kih yahaaN ham Urdu shaa3iroN kaa kalaam likh kar pesh karte haiN aur vuh shaa3ir, jahaaN tak mujhe 3ilm hai, kitaabii/mi3yaarii zabaan hii isti3maal meN laate haiN. nahiiN to vuh bhii "xatam" aur "Ghaltii" vaGhairah ko apne shi3roN meN piro deN.
iraadat-mand
Naseer
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 05:50:04 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Janab Naseer Sahab. Adaab
>Urdu jis zabaan ki jadeed shakl hai us main koi aisa lafz nahiin hai jis >men aakhir main to saakin consonants aate hon..is tarha ke alfaz taqreer ki >ravaani men khalal paida karte hain is lie inke aakhir men pehle sakin >consonant ko mutaharrik kar lia jata hai.
> ba-har-haal, meyaari zabaan ka matlab ye nahin hai keh us zabaan main >mustamil doosri zabaanon ke alfaaz unki asl shakal men bole jaayen. balkeh >ye hai ke jaise wo zabaan bolne wale bolte hain waise boli jaye.
>
iraadat-mand
Naseer
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 5:26:19 AM2/25/16
to
".fikr, darxvaast. daraxt aur dharm do maziid misaaleN haiN. shaayad maiN aap kii baat Thiik tarH samjh nahiiN paayaa. kyaa aap thoRii vazaaHat kar sakte haiN? "
S دهرم धर्म dharma, vulg. dharm, and H. धरम dharam
dekhiaye: H. धरम dharam. yaanii Hindustani men ye lafz 'dharam' ho gayaa hai. yahii men kehna chaah rahaa tha keh jis zabaan Arabi, Farsi alfaaz aur tarakeeb shamil kar ke Urdu bani hai us zabaan main alfaaz ke aakhir men do consonants nahiin aate. is lie ba'd men jo alfaaz bhi idhar udhar se us men shamil hue un men bhi aakhir k 2 consonants men se pehle ko mutaharrik kar dia gya jaise 'dharm' men /r/ ke baad /a/ aaya hai.
"lekin Asad SaaHib, yahaaN ham Urdu bol nahiiN rahe balkih likh rahe haiN. ek baar pahle bhii 3arz kar chukaa huuN kih yahaaN ham Urdu shaa3iroN kaa kalaam likh kar pesh karte haiN aur vuh shaa3ir, jahaaN tak mujhe 3ilm hai, kitaabii/mi3yaarii zabaan hii isti3maal meN laate haiN. nahiiN to vuh bhii "xatam" aur "Ghaltii" vaGhairah ko apne shi3roN meN piro deN. "
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 5:44:39 AM2/25/16
to
mujh jaise "ALUP-er" kii bad-qismatii yih hai kih yahaaN un logoN kii shiddat se kamii hai jin kii zabaan Urdu hai aur jo aap kii tarH baa-muHaavarah Urdu bolte haiN. ek muddat ho ga'ii hai kih Sarwar Raz SaaHib aur Ali Minai SaaHib yahaaN tashriif nahiiN laa'e. Asa'd aur Irfan SaaHiban ko yahaaN Haazir hu'e ek 3arsah biit gayaa hai. Afzal SaaHib yahaaN maujuud haiN lekin vuh Urdu meN bahut kam likhte haiN. ab ham jaa'eN to kahaaN jaa'eN?
xulaasah yih kih agar aap yahaaN aate raheN to yaqiin-an mujhe aur shaayad diigar aHbaab ko bhii aap se kuchh siikhne kaa mauqa3 mil jaa'e gaa. go aap kii raa'e hai kih "hamko maloom hai keh jaise ham se punjabi nahin boli jati unse urdu nahin boli jati." taa ham mujh jaise anaaRii kam az kam koshish to kar sakte haiN. miHnat "kar kar" kuchh to Haasil ho gaa!
haaN bha'ii mujhe ek baat kaa khaTkaa zaruur rahe gaa. aap Punjab meN rahte haiN aur ba-qaul shaxse, ""Punjabi apna asar bahot jaldi char deti hai", maiN kaise sau fii-sad mutma'in ho sakuuN gaa kih aap kii zabaan tamaam aaluudagiyoN se paak hai?:-)
aap kaa xair-andesh
Naseer
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 6:28:24 AM2/25/16
to
Beshak, meri zabaan aluudah ho chuki hai. lekin kam az kam jis baat ka mujhe yaqeen hai wo to hai. ya'nii kuchh cheezen main ne un logon se seekhiin jin ki zabaan aaluudah nahin thi. is li'e main khud ko authority ke taur par pesh nahiin karta.
aur ab phir janaab ki guftaar men tanz ki milaavaT ho ga'ii. ya'nii men bhi ek daf'a apni his-e-tanz-o-mizaah ko aazmaa sakta hun ;-)
Asad
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 6:46:25 AM2/25/16
to
Asad SaaHib, aadaab 3arzx hai.
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 10:26:19 UTC, Asad wrote:
>
> 'fikr', 'darkhaast', aur 'darakht' to Urdu ke apne alfaaz nahin hai, Farsi >aur Arabi se dakheel hue hain. baat reh gayee 'dharm' ki to ye Sanskrit ka >lafz 'dharma' se hai, aur Urdu/Hindi (ya Hindustani) men 'dharam' hai >'dharm' nahin. dekhiye Platts Sahab kya farmate hain is baare men:
>
> S دهرم धर्म dharma, vulg. dharm, and H. धरम dharam
maiN to Hairaan huuN kih aap "baahir" ke silsile meN Platts par iimaan nahiiN rakhte aur "Urdu only" dictionary kaa mutaalabah karte haiN aur ab "dharm" ke liye Platts hii kii isnaad pesh kar rahe haiN!! is mauzuu3 par Farhang-i-Asifiyyah ke mu'allif kyaa farmaate haiN? dharm yaa dharam? xair chhoRiye is baat ko.
aap kahte haiN kih fikr 3arabii hai, darxvaast/daraxt Farsi haiN, dharm Sanskrit hai, is liye yih alfaaz "Urdu ke apne nahin". agar ham sab 3arabii, Farsii, desii aur "vilaayatii" alfaaz nikaal deN jin se Urdu banii hai to Urdu ke palle baaqii kyaa rah jaa'e gaa? jab ko'ii bhii lafz ek zabaan se duusrii zabaan meN aa jaataa hai to vuh usii kaa Hissah ban jaataa hai. aNgrezi bolte/likhte vaqt kyaa ham alfaaz ke saath aisaa bhed-bhaa'o karte haiN kih yih Anglo-Saxzon hai, yih Yuunaanii hai aur yih Laatiinii hai?
> dekhiaye: H. धरम dharam. yaanii Hindustani men ye lafz 'dharam' ho gayaa >hai. yahii men kehna chaah rahaa tha keh jis zabaan Arabi, Farsi alfaaz aur >tarakeeb shamil kar ke Urdu bani hai us zabaan main alfaaz ke aakhir men do >consonants nahiin aate. is lie ba'd men jo alfaaz bhi idhar udhar se us men >shamil hue un men bhi aakhir k 2 consonants men se pehle ko mutaharrik kar >dia gya jaise 'dharm' men /r/ ke baad /a/ aaya hai.
>
Hindustani ko'ii zabaan hai hii nahiiN! is vaqt ham Urdu kii baat kar rahe haiN. Platts kii luGhat kaa "H", Hindustani ke liye nahiiN balkih Hindi ke liye hai. us ne apnii aasaanii ke liye jo desii alfaaz haiN, unheN Hindi ke zumre meN Daalaa hai.
aap kaa farmaan kih Urdu meN lafz "dharam" hai, "dharm" nahiiN, is se Raj Kumar SaaHib ittifaaq nahiiN karte. vuh yih shi3r ba-taur-i-isnaad pesh karte haiN.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/dharm/alt.language.urdu.poetry/7xasefVZkL4/WlRKqxRsB1sJ
jaReN "dharm" ki phir jamaataa hooN maiN
ayaaN ho ke yug yug meiN aataa hooN maiN
Khwaaja Dil Mohammad
apne aabaa'ii vatan, Lucknow, ke Chakbast Lakhnavi ke yih ash3aar mulaaHaxzah farmaa'ie.
aaraam ziNdagii ke dikhaataa hai sabz baaGh
lekin bahaar-e-aish kaa mujh ko nahiiN dimaaGh
kahte haiN jis ko dharm, voh dunyaa ka hai charaaGh
haT jaauuN is ravish se to kul meN lage ga daaGh
be_aabruu yeh bans na ho, yeh hiraas hai
jis god meN palaa huuN, mujhe us kaa paas hai
agar Urdu meN garm, sharm, jurm khap sakte haiN to dharm kyoN nahiiN qaabil-i-qubuul?
Naseer
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 10:26:19 UTC, Asad wrote:
>
> 'fikr', 'darkhaast', aur 'darakht' to Urdu ke apne alfaaz nahin hai, Farsi >aur Arabi se dakheel hue hain. baat reh gayee 'dharm' ki to ye Sanskrit ka >lafz 'dharma' se hai, aur Urdu/Hindi (ya Hindustani) men 'dharam' hai >'dharm' nahin. dekhiye Platts Sahab kya farmate hain is baare men:
>
> S دهرم धर्म dharma, vulg. dharm, and H. धरम dharam
aap kahte haiN kih fikr 3arabii hai, darxvaast/daraxt Farsi haiN, dharm Sanskrit hai, is liye yih alfaaz "Urdu ke apne nahin". agar ham sab 3arabii, Farsii, desii aur "vilaayatii" alfaaz nikaal deN jin se Urdu banii hai to Urdu ke palle baaqii kyaa rah jaa'e gaa? jab ko'ii bhii lafz ek zabaan se duusrii zabaan meN aa jaataa hai to vuh usii kaa Hissah ban jaataa hai. aNgrezi bolte/likhte vaqt kyaa ham alfaaz ke saath aisaa bhed-bhaa'o karte haiN kih yih Anglo-Saxzon hai, yih Yuunaanii hai aur yih Laatiinii hai?
> dekhiaye: H. धरम dharam. yaanii Hindustani men ye lafz 'dharam' ho gayaa >hai. yahii men kehna chaah rahaa tha keh jis zabaan Arabi, Farsi alfaaz aur >tarakeeb shamil kar ke Urdu bani hai us zabaan main alfaaz ke aakhir men do >consonants nahiin aate. is lie ba'd men jo alfaaz bhi idhar udhar se us men >shamil hue un men bhi aakhir k 2 consonants men se pehle ko mutaharrik kar >dia gya jaise 'dharm' men /r/ ke baad /a/ aaya hai.
>
aap kaa farmaan kih Urdu meN lafz "dharam" hai, "dharm" nahiiN, is se Raj Kumar SaaHib ittifaaq nahiiN karte. vuh yih shi3r ba-taur-i-isnaad pesh karte haiN.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.language.urdu.poetry/dharm/alt.language.urdu.poetry/7xasefVZkL4/WlRKqxRsB1sJ
jaReN "dharm" ki phir jamaataa hooN maiN
ayaaN ho ke yug yug meiN aataa hooN maiN
Khwaaja Dil Mohammad
apne aabaa'ii vatan, Lucknow, ke Chakbast Lakhnavi ke yih ash3aar mulaaHaxzah farmaa'ie.
aaraam ziNdagii ke dikhaataa hai sabz baaGh
lekin bahaar-e-aish kaa mujh ko nahiiN dimaaGh
kahte haiN jis ko dharm, voh dunyaa ka hai charaaGh
haT jaauuN is ravish se to kul meN lage ga daaGh
be_aabruu yeh bans na ho, yeh hiraas hai
jis god meN palaa huuN, mujhe us kaa paas hai
agar Urdu meN garm, sharm, jurm khap sakte haiN to dharm kyoN nahiiN qaabil-i-qubuul?
>
> jii, is men mujhay aap se kuch ikhtalaaf nahin hai. beshak, likhat men alfaaz ko aise hi tehreer karna chaahiye. lekin, agar koi, kisi Gair rasm-ul-khat men bol chaal ki tarha likh raha ho to us par ta'n-o-tashni' nahin karna chahiye.
"ta'n-o-tashni'"? nahiiN kabhii nahiiN. tasHiiH zaruur. zabaan ko kisii bhii rasmu_lxat meN likhaa jaa'e, saHiiH likhnaa chaahiye. 3aamiyaanah (colloquial) lahje meN nahiiN.
> jii, is men mujhay aap se kuch ikhtalaaf nahin hai. beshak, likhat men alfaaz ko aise hi tehreer karna chaahiye. lekin, agar koi, kisi Gair rasm-ul-khat men bol chaal ki tarha likh raha ho to us par ta'n-o-tashni' nahin karna chahiye.
Naseer
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 7:03:11 AM2/25/16
to
"jab ko'ii bhii lafz ek zabaan se duusrii zabaan meN aa jaataa hai to vuh usii kaa Hissah ban jaataa hai"
"agar Urdu meN garm, sharm, jurm khap sakte haiN to dharm kyoN nahiiN qaabil-i-qubuul? "
"Hindustani ko'ii zabaan hai hii nahiiN! is vaqt ham Urdu kii baat kar rahe haiN. Platts kii luGhat kaa "H", Hindustani ke liye nahiiN balkih Hindi ke liye hai. us ne apnii aasaanii ke liye jo desii alfaaz haiN, unheN Hindi ke zumre meN Daalaa hai. "
Fallon sahab hi ko le len, wo apni luGat men har tamseeli jumle men 'dharam' hi istemaal karte hain, maslan:
1-Dharam kā saudā hai!
2-Rupaë meṅ do āne to dharam ke haiṅ.
haan jahaan saqeel Sanskrit alfaaz istemaal kie wahan 'dharm' likha.
Urdu luGaat men dekhna chaahen to Ferozul Lughaat hazir hai. wahaan bhi (دَھ-رَم) likha hai.
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 7:06:47 AM2/25/16
to
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 4:46:25 PM UTC+5, Naseer wrote:
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 8:16:00 AM2/25/16
to
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 12:06:47 UTC, Asad wrote:
> is sher men to 'yug' bhi istemaal hua hai. Urdu men to 'jug' hi suna hai.
jii haaN Asad SaaHib, is shi3r meN "yug" bhii isti3maal hu'aa hai. lekin baat to ho rahii hai "dharm/dharam" kii. kyaa aap kii is se muraad yih hai kih yih shi3r Urdu kaa nahiiN? aur aap ne Chakbast Lakhnavi ke shi3r par kuchh tabsirah nahiiN kiyaa.
> is sher men to 'yug' bhi istemaal hua hai. Urdu men to 'jug' hi suna hai.
shaa3ir/adiib log aazaad-sirsht hote haiN. unheN jo lafz munaasib lage use isti3maal kar lete haiN. zaahir hai shaa3ir ko maaHaul/mauzuu3 kaa bhii xayaal rakhnaa paRtaa hai. agar tarjumah ho rahaa ho Bhagvat Giita kaa, yaa Mahaa Bhaarat ke kisii manzar kii 3akkaasii kii jaa rahii ho to vahaaN maxsuus kaifiyyat paidaa karne ke liye shaa3ir aise lafzoN kaa intixaab kar saktaa hai. nayaa shivaalah kii nazm meN Allama Iqbal ne bhii shakti, bhakti, priit vaGairah barte haiN.
ham Urdu meN yaqiin-an "des" kahte haiN lekin Urdu adab meN aap ko "desh" bhii mil jaa'e gaa. Sayyid Ihtisham Hussain kii taHriir meN bhii.
Naseer
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 8:46:31 AM2/25/16
to
Asad SaaHib, aadaab 3arxz hai.
Kaifi Azami kii ek nazm unhiiN kii zabaanii suniye. lafz "dharm" par aap kii tavajjuh chaahiye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y06UXsczeek
Naseer
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 10:00:26 AM2/25/16
to
Janaab Naseer Saahab
Meri baat phir bhi saabit hui naa keh "dharm" ko kisi wajah se "dharam" kia gya. chalen maana keh "dharm" bhi theek hai lekin baat ho rahi thi akhri 2 consonants ki aur luGaat men "dharam" ka hona iska saboot hai ke nahiin?
Meri baat phir bhi saabit hui naa keh "dharm" ko kisi wajah se "dharam" kia gya. chalen maana keh "dharm" bhi theek hai lekin baat ho rahi thi akhri 2 consonants ki aur luGaat men "dharam" ka hona iska saboot hai ke nahiin?
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 10:49:40 AM2/25/16
to
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 15:00:26 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Janaab Naseer Saahab
>
> Meri baat phir bhi saabit hui naa keh "dharm" ko kisi wajah se "dharam" kia gya. chalen maana keh "dharm" bhi theek hai lekin baat ho rahi thi akhri 2 consonants ki aur luGaat men "dharam" ka hona iska saboot hai ke nahiin?
Asad SaaHib.
> Janaab Naseer Saahab
>
> Meri baat phir bhi saabit hui naa keh "dharm" ko kisi wajah se "dharam" kia gya. chalen maana keh "dharm" bhi theek hai lekin baat ho rahi thi akhri 2 consonants ki aur luGaat men "dharam" ka hona iska saboot hai ke nahiin?
aap hii ne kahaa hai kih Urdu meN (desii) lafz ke aaxir meN do consonant nahiiN aate. yih saabit ho gayaa hai kih aate haiN aur Farhang-i-Asifiyya (Urdu only dictionary, not one written by these aNgrez who mix up all languages!) meN sirf "dharm" hii shaamil hai. The compiler Maulavi Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavi has already been mentioned in our exchanges as a person of literary repute. Who is the compiler of Ferozul Lughaat?
maiN ne yih kabhii nahiiN kahaa kih "dharam" kaa kahiiN bhii vujuud nahiiN. ham baat shaa3irii kii kar rahe haiN. is maHfil meN do Urdu shu3araa kii raa'e hai kih lafz "dharm" honaa chaahiye (jahaaN tak shaa3irii kaa ta3alluq hai) aur Azamgarh ke shaa3ir ne bol kar bataa diyaa hai kih lafz dharm hai. mere xayaal meN ab hameN yih saabit karne kii zaruurat nahiiN kih "dharam" bhii hotaa hai.
yaqiin-an aur bhii dharm jaise desii alfaaz Urdu meN isti3maal hote hoN ge.
Naseer
Asad
Feb 25, 2016, 1:32:08 PM2/25/16
to
Mere khyaal men ham bol chaal ki zabaan ki baat kar rahe the? kahiin bhi Ulamaa ki zabaan ko meyaar nahiin mana jata
Message has been deleted
Naseer
Feb 25, 2016, 2:31:54 PM2/25/16
to
On Thursday, 25 February 2016 18:32:08 UTC, Asad wrote:
> Mere khyaal men ham bol chaal ki zabaan ki baat kar rahe the? kahiin bhi Ulamaa ki zabaan ko meyaar nahiin mana jata
Asad SaaHib. mujhe to yaad nahiiN maiN ne kab 3ulamaa kaa zikr kiyaa thaa! maiN to yih kahe jaa rahaa huuN kih shu3araa kii zabaan vuh zabaan hotii hai jise aap fasiiH bhii kah sakte haiN. aap Mirza Ghalib ke beshtar ash3aar ko "bol-chaal" kii zabaan nahiiN kah sakte varnah itnii sharHoN kii zaruurat kyoN paRtii?
> Mere khyaal men ham bol chaal ki zabaan ki baat kar rahe the? kahiin bhi Ulamaa ki zabaan ko meyaar nahiin mana jata
naazish-i-ayyaam-i-xaakistar-nashiinii kyaa kahuuN
pahluu-i-andeshah vaqf-i-bistar-i-sanjaab thaa
kyaa farmaayaa Mirza SaaHib ne? Urdu bol-chaal to maiN bhii samajh saktaa huuN!
mere xayaal meN aap kaa "Khyaal" ek baar phir badal gayaa hai aur aap ne us kii tiisrii shakl pesh kar dii hai!:-)
Naseer
Asad
Feb 26, 2016, 12:07:26 AM2/26/16
to
agar ham is 'dharm' ki behs ko dekhen to ye shuruu yahaan se huii thii jab main ne kaha tha keh Urdu jis zabaan ki jadeed shakl hai us men lafz ke aakhir men 2 consonant nahiin hote. is ke lie maiN ne Platts ka havaala dia tha keh jis men saaf likha tha keh 'dharma' Hindustani/Hindi/Hindvi zabaan men 'dharam' hai. aap ne phir mere Platts par un etarazaat ka tazkira kia jo main ne 'Baahir' ke lie uThaaye the. main ne kaha tha keh platts ne tamam dialects jama kar die hain. lekin yahaan to Urdu ki baat hi nahiin thi, saaf saaf likha hai keh Hindi (jo aapke mutabiq tamaam desi alfaaz ke lie likha gayaa hai) men 'dharam' hai. aapkii is baat se bhii saabit hua keh desi alfaaz men ye lafz 'dharam' hi hai.
yahii baat fallon sahab ki luGat se bhi zaahir hotii hai keh desi boli men 'dharam' hi hai. ab shaa'ir isko jaise bhi baandhen, bahar-haal ek puraanay shaa'ir ka she'r mila hai:
ilaahi tujh se ab kehtaa hai haatim is zamaane men
sharam rakhna, bharam rakhna, dharam rakhna, karam rakhna
(Shaikh Zahooruddin Hatim)
ba'd men shaa'iron ne kuch bhi usuul banaa lie hon, ye baat to tai hai ke shuruu men zabaan men lafz 'dharam' hi aaya. 'dharam' to ek taraf, upar keh she'r men 'sharam' bhi istemaal hua hai.
lihaazah, main mazeed behs men nahiin jaaunga. ye behs shuruu' is baat par hui thi keh Hindvi men aise alfaaz nahiin milte, jiskii waja se Urdu men chand ek Arabi aur Farsi alfaaz ko bhi is hi tarha avaam men bola jata hai jisko Galat kehna aur baat baat par Toknaa koii achii baat nahiin hai.
ulamaa ka lafz siraf mazhabi ulamaa ke lie nahin bola jata, zabaan-o-bayaan ke bhi ulamaa hote hain. wo fasaahat keh asool bana sakte hain, lekin zabaan to avaam hi ki boli se pehchaani jaati hai. haan ab agar koi ghazal-goii kare wo in hi asoolun kii pairavi kar ke kare, nahiin to apne asool zamaane se manva le.
Asad
PS. aap ne 'kar kar' ko tanzia iste'maal kia. lekin saahab, is ka koi faaidah na hoga aapko.
Bekas Murray
Jul 14, 2016, 4:31:14 PM7/14/16
to
On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 1:35:08 AM UTC-8, Asad wrote:
> On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 6:14:19 AM UTC+5, Bekas Murray wrote:
> > kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
>
> Janab Bekas Sahab
>
> mere khyal main to urdu main koi lafz sakoon se shuru nahin hota. Na hi mere
Orthodoxy to yehi kehti hai magar aisay alfaaz ka kyaa kiyaa jaa'ay
kyaa: At least to my ear the kaaf is with sakoot. taqti main isay kaa kar dain gay yaa'ni harkat aur sakoon. jab ke lagtaa hai ke honaa chaahiyay sakoon (kaaf), harkat (yay), sakoon (alif). Now in taqti one can say drop the initial sakoon phir aap keh saktay hain ke taqti main ye yaa (instead of kaa) hai.
yaa'ay tahtanii kay saath ka'ii lafz aisay ho saktay hain...maslan pyaar.
thoughts.
khyal main koi aise behr hai jiska aaghaaz sakoon se hota ho. to aap ko mutaharrik avaaz hi se lafz shuru karna parege. aise alfaaz angrezi hi kya sanskrit men bhi hain..maslan Krishna, Brij, Brahmin etc :-) har ek to aise hi baandhen ge jaise urdu/hindi men bolte hain.
>
> aam taur par aise alfaz usool ye hai keh lafz ke pehli harf ko mutaharrik kar dete hain lekin /s/ se shuru hone walon se pehle /i/ laga kar /s/ ki awaz ko sakoon hi men rakhte hain.
>
> is men bhi farq ho sakta hai, maslan angrezi 'bridge' ko to shayad ham 'birij' baandhen lekin Sanskrit 'brij' ko shayad 'birj' baandhna hi theek ho.
>
> ye sab mere hi khyalaat hain. dekhiye asatizah kya kehte hain :-)
> On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 6:14:19 AM UTC+5, Bekas Murray wrote:
> > kuch alfaaz nay Urdu jaama pehan liyaa hai jaisay school, cricket waghaira nay laikin ye angraizi pronunciation kay saath bhi istaimaal kiyay jaatay hain. phir kuch aur hain jaisay bridge. While using such words should one count br, cr, sch as one letter with a harkat or a sakoon on the first letter (that is starting a word with a sakoon) and harkat on the second but for counting count both as harkat or go the iskool, kirkit way? Thoughts.
>
> Janab Bekas Sahab
>
> mere khyal main to urdu main koi lafz sakoon se shuru nahin hota. Na hi mere
Orthodoxy to yehi kehti hai magar aisay alfaaz ka kyaa kiyaa jaa'ay
kyaa: At least to my ear the kaaf is with sakoot. taqti main isay kaa kar dain gay yaa'ni harkat aur sakoon. jab ke lagtaa hai ke honaa chaahiyay sakoon (kaaf), harkat (yay), sakoon (alif). Now in taqti one can say drop the initial sakoon phir aap keh saktay hain ke taqti main ye yaa (instead of kaa) hai.
yaa'ay tahtanii kay saath ka'ii lafz aisay ho saktay hain...maslan pyaar.
thoughts.
khyal main koi aise behr hai jiska aaghaaz sakoon se hota ho. to aap ko mutaharrik avaaz hi se lafz shuru karna parege. aise alfaaz angrezi hi kya sanskrit men bhi hain..maslan Krishna, Brij, Brahmin etc :-) har ek to aise hi baandhen ge jaise urdu/hindi men bolte hain.
>
> aam taur par aise alfaz usool ye hai keh lafz ke pehli harf ko mutaharrik kar dete hain lekin /s/ se shuru hone walon se pehle /i/ laga kar /s/ ki awaz ko sakoon hi men rakhte hain.
>
> is men bhi farq ho sakta hai, maslan angrezi 'bridge' ko to shayad ham 'birij' baandhen lekin Sanskrit 'brij' ko shayad 'birj' baandhna hi theek ho.
>
> ye sab mere hi khyalaat hain. dekhiye asatizah kya kehte hain :-)
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