aashiquee sabr talab - what does it mean

[v]

a few years back someone had posted this translation and asked for the original ghalib sher

Love demands endurance, while desire is consuming
What should be my state until obsession devours patience

and i had responded that the sher would be

aashiqii sab'r talab aur tammanna betaab
dil kaa kya raNg karuuN Khuun--e-jigar hone tak

but when one looks at pritchett, one gets more confused about this couplet. was the heart considered the repository of patience and the liver the repository of passion. only that makes sense for me right now.

can someone help with a proper explanation of this couplet.

[Naseer]

Ravi jii, aadaab 'arz hai.

You might be looking too deep into the shi'r.

The straight forward meaning that comes to my mind is this.

Although patience is a requisite for love but I am restless in the
desire (to achieve it)
By the time my liver turns to blood, what state will my heart be in
then?

I suppose in layman's terms he is saying "I'll be bloody dead by the
time I get to achieve the love I desire"! (When liver turns to blood,
my heart will surely be dead too!)

Naseer

[v]

naseer saab

thanks.

but what is the relevance of liver turning to blood. i know the liver looks reddish in colour. but what does 'liver becoming bloodied or turning to blood' mean

[Vijay]

Good Naseer sahib. I think you got the gist of the meaning. I have one small problem with your interpretation: Ghalib has used 'active' voice for the 'dil' part of the she'r, whereas you assume 'passive'. i.e. whereas Ghalib says 'kya karuuN', you have assumed 'kya ho, ya kya hoga'.

In the normal course, dil-jigar are used together to mean more or less the same thing in urdu poetry, i.e. 'organs of love'. But here, I think Ghalib is playing a trick: hinting at above association but using 'dil' to denote a higher mental function than the mere 'organ of suffering in love'. That part is left for 'jigar' alone.

So in my opinion, 'dil ka kya raNg karuuN' means how do I soothe my mind, settle my heart. In other words, dil (man) ko kaise saNbhaaluuN ya samjhaauuN ya behlaauuN.

Ravi sahib, I think Khuun-e-jigar implies the end state of suffering before one succeeds in love.

Hope that makes sense!

Best regards,

Vijay

[v]

how do i soothe myself before i succeed in love? i still do not get the relevance of the blood in the liver.

[Vijay]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:32:21 PM UTC+1, v wrote:

>
> how do i soothe myself before i succeed in love?

Exactly!

>i still do not get the relevance of the blood in the liver

The word 'jigar' in urdu poetry is used in similar sense as 'dil' and not the literal 'liver' that lies in the upper abdomen on the right side under the lower ribs. 'Khuun-e-jigar hona' is meant to convey extreme suffering in love and not literal bleeding in the liver that you seem to assume. (Same as 'dil ke tukRe hazaar hona' means metaphoric broken heart rather than literal fracturing into thousand pieces:-), or 'dard-e-dil' 'dard-e-jigar' meaning a metaphoric heartache and not anginal pain or 'hepatic pain'):-)

So success in love requires the patience of a Jehovah, if you will, and my heart wants instant gratification. It doesn't seem to realise that it (or its equivalent, jigar) will have to have extreme patience, suffering in the process to the point of 'bleeding', before any chance of success. How do I console my heart in the interim, that is the question!

All IMHO, of course.

Vijay

[Naseer]

Did you meaning "Patience of Job", Vijay SaaHib?

[Saani T]

I don't know whether it is proper :) but I will translate it as: How
should I handle the conflict between the demands of love and desire
until I am beyond these matters.

I think part of the confusion may be coming from trying to equate
aashiqee/sabr and tamanaa/bataabi to dil and jigar respectively. I
would say Ghalib is simply stating a conflict of demands that will
always be there and asks how should I handle this conflict until these
things matter no more to me (perhaps due to death). Khoon e jigar can
be take in a literal sense as death or the death of these things in
his person. There is also a play of words dil ka rang and khoon e
jigar. Because of the nature of the conflict it is likely that heart
will go though several "rangs" :). So he is asking how should I
placate it (or stick to one color).

[arahim]

On Apr 20, 11:36 pm, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, 20 April 2012 18:40:27 UTC+1, Naseer  wrote:
> > On Apr 20, 3:19 am, v <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > a few years back someone had posted this translation and asked for the original ghalib sher
>
> > > Love demands endurance, while desire is consuming
> > > What should be my state until obsession devours patience
>
> > > and i had responded that the sher would be
>
> > > aashiqii sab'r talab aur tammanna betaab
> > > dil kaa kya raNg karuuN Khuun--e-jigar hone tak
>
> > > but when one looks at pritchett, one gets more confused about this couplet. was the heart considered the repository of patience and the liver the repository of passion. only that makes sense for me right now.
>
> > > can someone help with a proper explanation of this couplet.
>
> > Ravi jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> > You might be looking too deep into the shi'r.
>
> > The straight forward meaning that comes to my mind is this.
>
> > Although patience is a requisite for love but I am restless in the
> > desire (to achieve it)
> > By the time my liver turns to blood, what state will my heart be in
> > then?
>
> > I suppose in layman's terms he is saying "I'll be bloody dead by the
> > time I get to achieve the love I desire"! (When liver turns to blood,
> > my heart will surely be dead too!)
>
> > Naseer
>
> Good Naseer sahib. I think you got the gist of the meaning. I have one small problem with your interpretation: Ghalib has used 'active' voice for the 'dil' part of the she'r, whereas you assume 'passive'. i.e. whereas Ghalib says 'kya karuuN', you have assumed 'kya ho, ya kya hoga'.
>
> In the normal course, dil-jigar are used together to mean more or less the same thing in urdu poetry, i.e. 'organs of love'. But here, I think Ghalib is playing a trick: hinting at above association but using 'dil' to denote a higher mental function than the mere 'organ of suffering in love'. That part is left for 'jigar' alone.
>

I think the trick is simpler. Without loss of (tasreehee :) meaning
the line can be read as: dil ka kyaa rang karooN khoon e dil honay
tak.

> So in my opinion, 'dil ka kya raNg karuuN' means how do I soothe my mind, settle my heart. In other words, dil (man) ko kaise saNbhaaluuN ya samjhaauuN ya behlaauuN.
>
> Ravi sahib, I think Khuun-e-jigar implies the end state of suffering before one succeeds in love.
>

To my mind success in love (it will still require sabr:) and there may
still be bataabi) does not get rid of the dichotomy. The end of
suffering comes from either death or in a more general sense of being
beyond these matters.

> Hope that makes sense!
>
> Best regards,
>

> Vijay- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Vijay]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 6:03:50 PM UTC+1, Naseer wrote:

>
> Did you meaning "Patience of Job", Vijay SaaHib?

aadaab Naseer sahib: as the joke goes: 'goldberg, iceberg, all the same to me':-)

Seriously though, both Job and Jehovah have been used to personify patience. For instance, this from the web:

"Jehovah’s qualities of patience and long-suffering would scarcely have come so prominetly to the fore had it not become necessary for him to deal with human imperfections, sins, and shortcomings. Jehovah’s willingness to do so for thousands of years demonstrates that he possesses these marvelous qualities to a perfect degree, and for that we should be most grateful. We are all sinners, and we all stumble many times. James 3:2, 1 John 1:8,9. "

Regards,

Vijay

[arahim]

On Apr 21, 11:06 am, Saani T <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 7:19 pm, v <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > a few years back someone had posted this translation and asked for the original ghalib sher
>
> > Love demands endurance, while desire is consuming
> > What should be my state until obsession devours patience
>
> > and i had responded that the sher would be
>
> > aashiqii sab'r talab aur tammanna betaab
> > dil kaa kya raNg karuuN Khuun--e-jigar hone tak
>
> > but when one looks at pritchett, one gets more confused about this couplet. was the heart considered the repository of patience and the liver the repository of passion. only that makes sense for me right now.
>
> > can someone help with a proper explanation of this couplet.
>
> I don't know whether it is proper :) but I will translate it as: How
> should I handle the conflict between the demands of love and desire
> until I am beyond these matters.
>
> I think part of the confusion may be coming from trying to equate
> aashiqee/sabr and tamanaa/bataabi to dil and jigar respectively. I

A further note: The two "rang" mentioned in the first misra',
aashiquii ka rang (sabr), tamanaa ka rang (betaabi) are referenced in
dil ka kyaa rang karoon (sabr yaa betaabi). sabr karoon yaa betaabi
dekhaoon (or some mixture of the two) khoon e jigar honay tak.

[Anil Kala]

>
> but when one looks at pritchett, one gets more confused about this couplet. was the heart considered the repository of patience and the liver the repository of passion. only that makes sense for me right now.
>
> can someone help with a proper explanation of this couplet.

I have a more banal interpretation. Ghalib says there are two ways to satisfy heart. Ashiqui which needs sabr and infatuation which is quick. He says I am in a kashmakash (dil ka kya rang karun) which to choose before I go to permanent sleep.

[v]

thanks for the various inputs.

but is there some sort of suggestion that dil is the repository of tamanna and jigar is the repository of sabr.

[arahim]

On Apr 21, 9:10 pm, v <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> thanks for the various inputs.
>
> but is there some sort of suggestion that dil is the repository of tamanna and jigar is the repository of sabr.
>

Apart from some differences of nuance dil and jigar are synonyms in
this context and as such are the repository of all emotions...dil nay
sabr kar liyaa, dili tammanaa thi etc. It is not a question of one
having more of certain features and the other less so. As I said you
will keep the meaning pretty much intact if you said dil ka kyaa rang
karoon khoon e dil honay tak.

>
>
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:43:13 AM UTC+5:30, Anil Kala wrote:
>
> > > but when one looks at pritchett, one gets more confused about this couplet. was the heart considered the repository of patience and the liver the repository of passion. only that makes sense for me right now.
>
> > > can someone help with a proper explanation of this couplet.
>

> > I have a more banal interpretation. Ghalib says there are two ways to satisfy heart. Ashiqui which needs sabr and infatuation which is quick. He says I am in a kashmakash (dil ka kya rang karun) which to choose before I go to permanent sleep.- Hide quoted text -

[arahim]

Also the element of frustration is shown by the construction dil ka
kyaa rang karoon. This sort of construction is often used as is dil ka
kyaa karoon, is museebat ka kyaa karoon, aray bhai ab kyaa karoon
phasaa huwa hoon etc.

- Hide quoted text -
>

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Anil Kala]

>
> but is there some sort of suggestion that dil is the repository of tamanna and jigar is the repository of sabr.
>

I have come across 'Dil' and 'Jigar' used interchangeably for the organ that feels emotions viz. love/sorrow/pain/happiness etc. So they are one and the same.

I want to know why Khoon e Jigar is 'liver turning to blood' instead of Khoon( murder) of liver?

[Naseer]

I don't mind a good joke at all, Vijay SaaHib.

In relation to Urdu poetry, I believe sabr-i-Ayyub (Patience of
Prophet Job) is more befitting than "Jehovah's Patience" (or sabr-i-
Allah/Khudaa/Rab/Parvardigaar/Bhagvaan).

kahaaN se laa'oN sabr-i-Hazrat-i-Ayyub ai saaqii
suraaHii aa'e gii, mai aa'e gii, phir jaam aa'e gaa!

Perhaps you could quote something with sabr-i-Jehovah?

[Vijay]

Aadaab Naseer sahib:

I don't think I can come up with a poetic quotation containing 'sabr-e-jehovah' as one of the constructs! I used the phrase in prose and I think it is acceptable. In many religions, patience, mercy, forgiveness, redemption etc. are considered godly qualities. I did provide a reference for 'patience of Jehovah' from a religious text.

Yes, 'patience of Job' is used more frequently, but to succeed in love (at least in Urdu poetry parlance), one may need the patience of the higher one:-)

Off topic, have people been using the newer Google Group Interface? It is confusing me no end. Chronology of posts has gone topsy turvy. It was only by sheer chance that I hit upon your post.

Best regards,

Vijay

[v]

On Monday, April 23, 2012 4:05:38 AM UTC+5:30, Vijay wrote:
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:04:19 PM UTC+1, Naseer wrote:
> > On Apr 21, 7:31 pm, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Saturday, April 21, 2012 6:03:50 PM UTC+1, Naseer wrote:
> > >
> > > > Did you meaning "Patience of Job", Vijay SaaHib?
> > >
> > > aadaab Naseer sahib: as the joke goes: 'goldberg, iceberg, all the same to me':-)
> > >
> > > Seriously though, both Job and Jehovah have been used to personify patience. For instance, this from the web:
> > >
> > > "Jehovah’s qualities of patience and long-suffering would scarcely have come so prominetly to the fore had it not become necessary for him to deal with human imperfections, sins, and shortcomings. Jehovah’s willingness to do so for thousands of years demonstrates that he possesses these marvelous qualities to a perfect degree, and for that we should be most grateful. We are all sinners,  and we all stumble many times.  James 3:2, 1 John 1:8,9. "
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Vijay
> >
> > I don't mind a good joke at all, Vijay SaaHib.
> >
> >

> > kahaaN se laa'oN sabr-i-Hazrat-i-Ayyub ai saaqii
> > suraaHii aa'e gii, mai aa'e gii, phir jaam aa'e gaa!
> >
>
>

waah kyaa sher hai. kiskaa likhaa sher hai ye.

[arahim]

On Apr 21, 6:32 am, Vijay <guz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:32:21 PM UTC+1, v wrote:
>
> > how do i soothe myself before i succeed in love?
>
> Exactly!
>
> >i still do not get the relevance of the blood in the liver
>
> The word 'jigar' in urdu poetry is used in similar sense as 'dil' and not the literal 'liver' that lies in the upper abdomen on the right side under the lower ribs. 'Khuun-e-jigar hona' is meant to convey extreme suffering in love and not literal bleeding in the liver that you seem to assume. (Same as 'dil ke tukRe hazaar hona' means metaphoric broken heart rather than literal fracturing into thousand pieces:-), or 'dard-e-dil' 'dard-e-jigar' meaning a metaphoric heartache and not anginal pain or 'hepatic pain'):-)
>

In a similar vein
jigar ka tukRa: son or daughter
jigar dikhaanaa: to show courage
bayjigari say laRna: to fight with courage
To have a jigar and to not have one are both signs of bravery:)