North & Hillard Exercise 182 [A] & 183 [A]
Daniel Hoehr
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
Responsa mittenda sunt die lunae.
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TEMPORAL CLAUSES
Rule 25: Conjunctions used in a purely temporal sense are followed by
the Indicative. But the verb is put in the Subjunctive (a) when it is
in Oration Obliqua, (b) when some other idea than that of time (e.g.
purpose) is introduced.
N.B. -- "Cum" is an exception. Also "dum" in the sense of "while" For
these see Rules 26, 27.
EXAMPLES
(a) Postquam^1 omnes Belgarum copias ad se venire vidit, ad exercitum
properavit.
After he saw that all the forces of the Belgians were coming to him
he hastened to join the army.
(b) Caesar priusquam se hostes ex terrore reciperent in fines Suessionum
duxit.
Before the enemy could recover^2 from their panic, Caesar led his
army into the territories of the Suessiones.
When the temporal clause refers to Future time the verb will be in the
Future (or. Fut. Per.) in Latin, though in English the Present is preferred.
(c) Nos ante abibimus quam tu redieris (Fut. Perf.)
__________________________________________________________________
^1 The English Pluperfect should be rendered by Latin Perfect after
postquam, and simulac. But with postquam the Plup. may be used if the
exact interval of time is mentioned.
Tertio post anno quam veneram = three years after I had come.
^2 Implying that Caesar wished to prevent their recovering.
Exercise 182 [A]
1. As soon as they saw us they went away.
2. I knew they would go away as soon as they saw us.
3. After you have heard what has taken place, you will know what you
ought to do.
5. From the time when we heard of the destruction of the army we gave up
all hope of safety.
6. No sooner was the signal given than all the soldiers ran forward
together.
7. As often as messengers arrive we all run to the gates.
8. They would not depart until they received their pay.
9. Caesar had ambarked all his troops before Pompey could reach Brundisium.
10 Before Pompey reached Brundisium Caesar had embarked all his troops.
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Vocabulary.
before, antequam, priusquam.
after, postquam.
N.B. -- Ante, prius, post, may be separated from quam be the principal
verb and other words. See the last example.
until, dum, donec, quoad.
whilst, as long as, donec, quoad.
as soon as, simulac.
as often as, quoties.
since, from the time when, es quo tempore.
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Exercise 183 [A]
1. We were all defeated almost before battle was joined.
2. The Gauls attacked the camp before our men could man the walls.
3. After landing the soldiers burnt their fleet.
4. We were informed that the general had dismissed his men after giving
them their pay.
5. A crowd assembled before I could reach the temple.
6. No sooner had the king appeared, than all the citizens raised a shout.
7. When you return you will hear what has taken place.
8. Advance the standards, my men, before the enemy catch sight of us.
9. They waited in the road until the king had passed.
10. We must remain here until our friends arrive.
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Vocabulary.
man, compleo.
raise a shout, clamorem tollo.
advance standards, signa fero.
pass, praetereo.
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Hoc conferte cum editione typographica.
DH
Johannes Patruus
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
> Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
> Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
>
> Responsa mittenda sunt die lunae.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PRELIMINARY NOTES TO EXERCISES 182 - 185
(1) Introductory overviews:
(a) A&G 541; G&L 559-560.
(b) http://www.geocities.com/frcoulter/third/lesson32.html?200524
(2) Note G&L 579's distinction between "Temporal cum" (which, insofar as
it refers to future time, comes within the ambit of the present
Exercises), and "Circumstantial cum" (deferred by N&H to page 144).
(3) Note also that in these Exercises, "dum/donec/quoad" (Vocab 182) is
used only in the sense of "until", other usages being deferred by N&H to
page 146.
(4) Grammar references:
(a) Conjunctions (postquam, simulac, etc.) followed by the indicative:
G&L 561-565; A&G 543; Bennett 287; BA 428.
(b) Conjunctions followed by the indicative or the subjunctive:
(b1) Antequam & priusquam:
G&L 574-577; A&G 550-551; Bennett 291-292; BA 442-443.
(b2) Dum & donec in the sense of "until":
G&L 571-572; A&G 553-554; Bennett 293.III; BA 440-441.
(c) Cum in future-clauses, followed by the indicative:
G&L 583; A&G 547; Bennett 289; BA 429.
(5) Further to Note (4)(a) -
(i) This class includes "quotie(n)s" (Vocab 182 & BA 428) and its
bloated brother "quotie(n)scumque." An illustration (Minkova p.50):
Quotienscumque loquor, in iudicium ingenii venio.
Every time I speak, my intelligence is being judged.
(ii) It also includes "ex quo tempore" (Vocab 182), for an illustration
of which see #35 in Note (16) infra. (There's another illustration in #7
except that "tempore" has gone missing (precedent: Aeneid II.163).)
(iii) It further includes "cum primum" (another expression for "as soon
as") which, despite its total absence from the Vocabularies, shows up in
the Key which spells it as "quum primum", thereby increasing the risk of
confusion with the adverbial phrase "quam primum" (as soon as possible -
Vocab 49).
(iv) It still further includes "quamdiu" (as long as), mentioned by N&H
on page 144 (fourth line from foot) and page 146 (footnote 1), for
illustrations of which see ## 11, 24 & 32 in Note (16) infra). (Quamdiu
doesn't show up in the N&H Key until 190:5 where it is given as an
alternative to "dum".)
(v) It will also be apparent from the grammars and dictionaries that
simulac (and its alternative form simulatque) may be spelled either as one
word or as two.
(vi) "Simulac" etc. serves to translate not only "as soon as" (Vocab
182) but also its synonym "No sooner ... than" in 182.6, 183:6 & 184:8.
(vii) It would appear that the avoidance of the Latin pluperfect
mentioned by N&H in footnote 1 on page 140 applies only when the verb is
indicative. When it's subjunctive in oratio obliqua then the pluperfect is
OK where appropriate, as for instance in 182:2, where the Key translates
"they saw us" as if it read "they had seen us" (< conspicio).
(viii) "Postquam" is not used with the future or future-perfect
according to G&L 565, "cum" being substituted in its place, e.g., -
After I see him, I shall return to Rome.
Cum eum videro, Romam redibo. (B&I 284)
However the Key violates this in 182:3 by using the future-perfect after
postquam, as indeed does the second illustration in BA 428.
(6) Further to Note (4)(b) -
(i) The choice between indicative and subjunctive depends on whether
the action concerned is (1) factual, or (2) potential (i.e. expressing
purpose, intention, expectancy, contingency, etc. (see Grammars)).
(ii) Sometimes potentiality may be less than strikingly obvious from
the wording of the English, for instance, in the case of the "before"
clause" in 182.4 and the "until" clause in 182:8, both of which establish
conditions to be met, so their actions are merely potential.
(iii) Since the distinction between factual and potential is not
expressed if the temporal clause is in oratio obliqua, one is relieved of
having to resolve the ambiguity inherent in such sentences as 184:5.
(iv) The following illustrations are from M&F p.251f.-
BEFORE:
(1a) Antequam (Priusquam) veni, discessit.
- Before I came, he went away (stated as a fact).
(1b) Antequam (Priusquam) venirem, discessit
- Before I could come, he went away
UNTIL:
(2a) Exspectavit dum (donec) veni.
- He waited until I (actually) came
(2b) Exspectavit dum (donec) venirem.
- He waited until I should come. He waited for me to come.
On both of the (b) sentences, M&F comment that "there is nothing in the
sentence to indicate that 'I' actually *did* come". For a similar contrast
between potential and actual, compare the last two sentences of Exercise 182.
(7) Further to Note (4)(b1), the interpolation of word(s) between the two
components of priusquam and antequam, noted in Vocab 182, is an example of
"tmesis" - a phenomenon not alien to English:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=tmesis
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/040117-tmesis.htm
As regards Latin, see A&G 550 and, especially, BA 443.
Note that:
(a) Antequam is "much" rarer than priusquam, according to G&L 574 N.
(b) The use, described in BA 443(i) of "non prius (ante) ... quam"
to translate "not ... until (till)"
is implemented by the Key in 184:7 and 185:8.
(c) Although Vocab 182 includes "postquam" as a candidate for tmesis,
there are no instances of this in the Key.
(8) As suggested by N&H's comments, it would appear that in clauses
referring to future time the verb is generally indicative. Thus we find in
M&F p.248 that
"Cum te videbo, felix ero."
may represent both:
(a) (At the very time) when I see you, I shall be happy.
(b) Under the circumstances of my seeing you, I shall be happy.
Nevertheless, the present subjunctive may also occur, in particular with:
(i) priusquam/antequam - A&G 551c
(ii) dum/donec - Bennett 293.III.2 (second illustration)
Indeed, in 183:8 the Key itself supplies the present subjunctive as an
alternative to the future-perfect.
(9) Further to Note (8) -
(a) The future-perfect appears to be the most common tense in the
temporal clause, the simple future being deployed by the Key only in 185:2
(as an alternative to the future perfect), 185:4 and 185:8.
(b) Future time is often cunningly disguised in English by use of
(i) the present tense (BA 190),
as, for instance, "you receive" in 184:6,
(ii) the perfect tense (BA 192 Note 1),
as, for instance, "you have heard" in 182:3.
(10) Temporal conjunctions are distributed in the Key as follows. In the
event of tmesis the number of intervening words is symbolised by the
number of hyphens (a compound verb (e.g., indictum est) being counted as
two words).
Ex.182: 1. simulac; 2. simulac; 3. postquam; 4. prius-quam;
5. ex quo tempore; 6. simulatque; 7. quoties;
8. donec; 9. prius---quam; 10. priusquam.
Ex.183: 1. prius---quam; 2. priusquam; 3. postquam; 4. postquam;
5. prius-quam; 6. simulac; 7. quum; 8. priusquam;
9. donec; 10. donec.
Ex.184: 1. quum; 2. simul atque; 3. prius--quam; 4. ante--quam;
5. antequam; 6. donec; 7. ante-quam; 8. simulac;
9. prius-quam; 10. donec.
Ex.185: 1. donec; 2. quum primum; 3. postquam; 4. quum primum;
5. dum; 6. postquam; 7. ante----quam; 8. prius-quam;
9. ante--quam; 10. donec.
(11) Notes on the Special Vocabularies:
(a) Vocab 183 - "man" - in the sense used in 183.2.
(b) Vocab 183 - "pass" - in the sense of "pass by" as in 183:9.
(c) Vocab 184 - "take the field" - i.e. "take to the field",
but in 184:8 the Key uses the modified form "suos educo".
(d) Vocab 185 - "dimittor" - We've previously encountered "dimitto"
translating transitive English verbs such as "dismiss", but here the
passive form is used to translate an English intransitive as explained in
BA 21. Something similar happens with the verb "dispergo" (Vocab 107) used
to translate "scattered" in 185:6.
(12) Among the Key's vocabularistic foibles are the following:
(a) It is not consistent in its translation of "could". In 184:3 and
184:9 it is represented by a form of "posse", but elsewhere it is
swallowed up into the subjunctive, as in the second of the four M&F
illustrations in Note 6 supra.
(b) It uses the verb "discedo" to translate "went away" in 182:1,
"go away" in 182:2, "leave" in 182:4 & 184.7, and "depart" in 182:8, but
"leave" in 184.4, 185.2 & 185.5 is < relinquo, and "left" in 184.2 is <
excedo (+ ex).
(c) "heard" is < audio in 182:3 but < certior fieri in 182:5.
(d) "refused" is < nolo in 182:4 but < recuso (+ quominus) in 185:3
& 185:5.
(e) The verb "adsum" translates both "is" in 185:8 and "be here" in
185:4.
(f) "milites" serves to translate "men" in 185:6 and "my men" in 183:8.
(13) In these Exercises we encounter the verb "to embark" used both
transitively (182:9, 182:10) and intransitively (185:7), as well as the
verb "to land" (=disembark) used intransitively (183:3), for all of which
see Vocab 133 and the Gen Vocab.
It appears from S&H and L&S that the full forms of these expressions are:
Transitive:
embark - impono + in navem/naves + direct object
disembark - expono + ex navi/navibus (± in terram) + direct obj.
Intransitive:
embark - conscendo + in* navem/naves
disembark - egredior + ex navi/navibus (± in terram)
NB 1 - Although the prepositional phrases with a form of "navis" may in
some cases be omitted, no such omissions occur in the Key.
NB 2 - Since conscendo may be transitive, the starred "in" is optional.
(14) Residual Notes for Exercises 182 - 183:
182:3 - "ought" < oportet; "taken place" & "to do" - both < "ago".
182.5 - "gave up ... hope" - Vocab 96.
182:8 - "would" = were unwilling; "received" = had recieved.
183.1 - "battle ... joined" -
- Vocab 54 (but with pugna instead of proelium).
183:3 = "The soldiers, after they egressed from the ships, burnt them."
183:4 - "giving ... pay" = < stipendium solvo.
183:6 - "appeared" - Vocab 55..
(15) Residual Notes for Exercises 184 - 185:
184:7 - the Key omits to translate "Rome".
184.10 - "saw" = perceived < sentio.
185:4 - "call" = summon (< arcesso, Vocab 24).
185:8 - "shall" - denotes simple futurity.
185:9 - "should" - the Key interprets this as "would",
i.e. without any inference of obligation.
(16) The following illustrative sentences are from L&J (p.179f.)
and its Key (p.47f.):
2. I shall not go home until you trust me with that.
2. Non domum redibo donec illud mihi committes.
4. When I see you, I will tell you what has happened.
4. Cum te videbo, tibi quid acciderit narrabo.
6. As soon as I can find a suitable spot,
we shall hide ourselves from the enemy.
6. Simul ac locum idoneum invenire potero, nos hostes celabimus.
7. There has never been a revolution since the city was founded.
7. Urbs ex quo condita est nullo motu affecta est.
11. We shall hold out as long as we can.
11. In loco perstabimus quamdiu poterimus.
12. Before night fell, Caesar sent some cavalry to help the allies.
12. Antequam nox fuit, Caesar nonnullos equites auxilio sociis misit.
16. After I had been made consul I had no time for pleasure.
16. Postquam consul factus sum, numquam voluptati vacavi.
17. Go, before you run a worse risk.
17. Prius abi quam peius periculum subeas.
18. They stayed near Capua until the city was betrayed to the enemy.
18. Prope Capuam manserunt donec urbs hostibus prodita est.
22. As soon as he saw them,
he drew his sword and rushed into the middle of the enemy.
22. Simul atque eos vidit,
gladio destricto in medios hostes se proiecit.
24. Don't move as long as you can be seen.
24. Ne te moveris quamdiu conspici poteris.
26. We will serve you until the work is finished.
26. Tibi serviemus donec opus conficietur.
29. I will punish you for your treachery as soon as I am allowed.
29. Poenas ignaviae a te sumam simul ac licebit.
32. As long as the safety of the army depended upon him,
he shewed great bravery.
32. Quamdiu exercitus salus in ipso constitit
magnam virtutem praestitit.
33. Before you go I will give you a letter to take to Cicero.
33. Priusquam abibis epistolam dabo Ciceroni tradendam.
35. Since he has been in command he has not punished a single sailor.
35. Ex quo tempore praefectus est ne unum quidem nautam punivit.
37. That bridge will not be safe until the wind dies down.
37. Ille pons non tutus erit donec ventus remissior fiet.
38. They pursued him for a long way, until he hid in the wood.
38. Eum diu secuti sunt donec in silva ipsum celavit.
39. As soon as the Senate met, Cicero started to accuse Catiline.
39. Simul ac Senatus convenit Cicero Catilinam accusare incepit.
40. As soon as I see their leader, I will raise a shout.
40. Simul atque eorum ducem conspicabor clamorem tollam.
(17) The following illustrative sentences are from a book of
ecclesiastical Latin (S&S p.129f.) -
2. Postquam impedimentum inventum et curatum erat,
avi activitas magnopere augebat.
3. Ubi vidit quod energiae eorum debilitarentur,
statuit ut multo plus exercitii eis imponeretur.
4. Ut semel alter fratrum desiderium exprimebat,
alter casum expendebat quomodo illi serviret.
5. Ut sacerdos aquam et vinum admiscuit, id suscipit.
10. Posteaquam illi nationi suppleveramus omnia quae proposuerat,
vidimus nos res nostras tum sociales tum politicas praetermisisse.
12. Quando cognovit periculum mortis impendere, virum statim baptizavit.
14. Ubi malae assuetudines inveteratae fiunt, voluntas languet.
15. Simul atque avia manca facta erat,
domi permanebat libros liturgicos legens.
18. Ut primum habitus imprudentes et irrationales rejiciunt,
vita moralis invalescit, qua de causa e multis incommodis,
difficultatibus, impedimentis erroribusque prioribus vindicantur.
19. Scio alios aliis nutrimentum supplevisse ubi deficeret.
20. Nobis dixerunt, simul multam aquam veram et naturalem biberent,
intervalla poenae nimis minuere.
... and from S&S p. 112f. ...
(a) Before he read your letter, he enquired about your health.
(a) Priusquam epistolam tuam legit, de tua salute quaesivit.
(b) Before he could be confined in jail, he achieved his freedom.
(b) Antequam in carcere clauderetur, libertatem consequebatur.
(c) Before we warn them, they will fall away.
(c) Priusquam admonuerimus eos, prolabentur.
(d) Baptism is usually administered
before the child reaches the age of reason.
(d) Baptismus generatim administratur
antequam infans usum rationis attingat.
2. Priusquam philosophiae comprehensionem augerent,
logicae elementa ediscere debebant.
3. Dicit nihil se postulare sibimetipsi,
antequam alii suscipiant quae eis desint.
4. Antequam tutor ad carcerem rursus tractus erit,
feminae filii intercedent pro eo.
5. Serio et prudenter scopos suos peregerunt,
priusquam statum verum tutamentorum civitatis revelaverunt.
7. Priusquam avia januam claudit, parvuli omnes ex domo egredientur.
8. Dixit, quamvis mater convaluisset satis ut infantes in dies curaret,
eam nequaquam paratam esse ad negotia difficiliora suscipienda,
antequam medicus licentiam daret.
10. Parochus infantes expositos baptizaverat,
priusquam normas in libris ritualibus inveniremus.
12. Antequam quidam praevidere possit, quae vel quoties sint necessaria,
occasio amissa erit.
14. Contra haec respondebo,
priusquam adversarii mei occasionem ceperint impugnandi motiva mea.
16. Priusquam nobis adeo aetatem suam diceret, in militiam accensitus erat.
17. Antequam ulla coactio usurpari posset, reus evasit.
18. Avia sciet id quod parvulis optimum sit,
priusquam eis emerit omnia quae ipsi velint.
19. Modis multis infideles fuerunt, conta autem
antequam mortui sunt, omnia lucra dederunt infantibus inventis.
... and from S&S pp.88-90 ...
(a) We are waiting until he comes.
(a) Expectamus, dum veniat.
(b) The army was trained until it was strong.
(b) Exercitus exercebatur, quoad fortis esset.
(c) He waited until I answered.
(c) Expectavit, donec respondi.
1. Metalla spectabunt, quoad aurum ab aurichalco distinguere possint.
3. De propositione disseruerunt, donec falsitatem ejus probaverunt.
5. Cum nox calida esset, ros cadebat, quoad totam terram humectavit.
25. Donec nobis se opponunt mendaciis dolosis,
intentionem eorum vere non sciemus.
(18) For further practice, the following sentences may be translated, and
the results checked against the Latin originals in BA 428 and 442-3.
1. When (after, as soon as) he heard (OR had heard) this he took his
departure.
2. After he hears this he will go away.
3. Whenever the enemy saw (had seen) any soldiers disembarking,
they attacked them.
4. Ten days after I (had) left you, I wrote a letter.
5. I received the letter four days before I came here.
6. The enemy made a charge before we should recover from the panic.
(i.e to prevent us from recovering)
7. Before men begin, they require deliberation.
8. I will not answer until you are silent.
9. He did not go without hearing the verdict of the jury.
10. I will not answer till you are silent.
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
difficult. I am not at all sure when to use which tense and mood, and,
although your notes were of great help, I have ignored a few marginal
things (e.g. the way the key translates "go away" and its synonyms; I
only used "abeo"). I have also ignored the "tmesis". I'll pay attention
to these details when I feel a bit more comfortable with the grammar
that is featured in these exercises here.
I have only done exercise 182 so far, since I think the next lot will be
easier when I've had some feedback and seen the key's answers, which I
hope will help to clarify things. Thus I'd like to postpone exercise 183
until Wednesday, if that's okay.
So, let the nightmare begin:
Exercise 182 [A]
1. As soon as they saw us they went away.
1. Simulatque nos conspexerunt, abierunt.
2. I knew they would go away as soon as they saw us.
2. Sciebam eos bituros esse simulatque nos conspexissent.
3. After you have heard what has taken place,
you will know what you ought to do.
3. Postquam audiveris quid actum sit,
scies quid te oporteat agere.
5. From the time when we heard of the destruction of the army
we gave up all hope of safety.
5. Ex quo tempore de exercitus clade certiores facti sumus,
salutis spem abiecimus.
6. No sooner was the signal given
than all the soldiers ran forward together.
6. Simulatque signum datum est,
omnes milites una procucurrerunt.
7. As often as messengers arrive we all run to the gates.
7. Quoties nuntii adveniunt, nos omnes ad portas currimus.
8. They would not depart until they received their pay.
8. Discedere noluerunt donec stipendium acceperent.
9. Caesar had ambarked all his troops
before Pompey could reach Brundisium.
9. Caesar omnes copias in naves imposuit
priusquam Pompeius Brundisium ad perveniret.
10. Before Pompey reached Brundisium
Caesar had embarked all his troops.
10. Priusquam Pompeius ad Brundisium pervenit,
Caesar omnes copias in naves imposuerat.
DH
Johannes Patruus
Daniel Hoehr wrote:
> I have to say that I find these exercises very confusing and extremely
> difficult. I am not at all sure when to use which tense and mood, and,
> although your notes were of great help, I have ignored a few marginal
> things (e.g. the way the key translates "go away" and its synonyms; I
> only used "abeo"). I have also ignored the "tmesis". I'll pay attention
> to these details when I feel a bit more comfortable with the grammar
> that is featured in these exercises here.
>
> I have only done exercise 182 so far, since I think the next lot will be
> easier when I've had some feedback and seen the key's answers, which I
> hope will help to clarify things. Thus I'd like to postpone exercise 183
> until Wednesday, if that's okay.
No prob!
> So, let the nightmare begin:
>
> Exercise 182 [A]
>
> 1. As soon as they saw us they went away.
> 1. Simulatque nos conspexerunt, abierunt.
>
> 2. I knew they would go away as soon as they saw us.
> 2. Sciebam eos bituros esse simulatque nos conspexissent.
abituros.
> 3. After you have heard what has taken place,
> you will know what you ought to do.
> 3. Postquam audiveris quid actum sit,
> scies quid te oporteat agere.
***** Sentence 4 missing in action! ******
> 5. From the time when we heard of the destruction of the army
> we gave up all hope of safety.
> 5. Ex quo tempore de exercitus clade certiores facti sumus,
> salutis spem abiecimus.
(a) "all" untranslated.
(b) Your "facti sumus" seems better to me than the Key's "facti fueramus",
which I don't really understand.
> 6. No sooner was the signal given
> than all the soldiers ran forward together.
> 6. Simulatque signum datum est,
> omnes milites una procucurrerunt.
>
> 7. As often as messengers arrive we all run to the gates.
> 7. Quoties nuntii adveniunt, nos omnes ad portas currimus.
>
> 8. They would not depart until they received their pay.
> 8. Discedere noluerunt donec stipendium acceperent.
The Key's pluperfect (accepissent) is probably more logical, and the
English would sound at least as good with "had received".
> 9. Caesar had ambarked all his troops
> before Pompey could reach Brundisium.
> 9. Caesar omnes copias in naves imposuit
> priusquam Pompeius Brundisium ad perveniret.
(a) Since the English pluperfect is in the *main* clause, their is no
reason not to use the Latin pluperfect (imposuerat), as in Sentence 10.
(b) "ad" unnecessary.
> 10. Before Pompey reached Brundisium
> Caesar had embarked all his troops.
> 10. Priusquam Pompeius ad Brundisium pervenit,
> Caesar omnes copias in naves imposuerat.
"ad" unnecessary since Brundisium is a town.
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
Latin answers (for Exercise 182 only) from the Key. (Sentence 4 withheld
for the time being.)
****************************************************************
EXERCISE 182
1. As soon as they saw us they went away.
1. Simulac nos conspexerunt discessere.
2. I knew they would go away as soon as they saw us.
2. Sciebam eos simulac nos conspexissent discessuros esse.
3. After you have heard what has taken place,
you will know what you ought to do.
3. Postquam quid actum sit audieris,
quid te agere oporteat scies.
4. He refused to leave before he had seen the general.
4.
5. From the time when we heard of the destruction of the army
we gave up all hope of safety.
5. Ex quo tempore de clade exercitus certiores facti fueramus
omnem spem salutis abjecimus.
6. No sooner was the signal given than
all the soldiers ran forward together.
6. Simulatque signum datum est
milites omnes simul procurrerunt.
7. As often as messengers arrive we all run to the gates.
7. Quoties nuntii adveniunt omnes ad portas currimus.
8. They would not depart until they received their pay.
8. Donec stipendium accepissent discedere nolebant.
9. Caesar had embarked all his troops
before Pompey could reach Brundisium.
9. Caesar omnes copias prius in naves imposuerat
quam Pompeius Brundisium adveniret.
10. Before Pompey reached Brundisium
Caesar had embarked all his troops.
10. Priusquam Pompeius Brundisium advenit
Caesar omnes copias in naves imposuerat.
****************************************************************
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
>
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
> > I have to say that I find these exercises very confusing and extremely
> > difficult. I am not at all sure when to use which tense and mood, and,
> > although your notes were of great help, I have ignored a few marginal
> > things (e.g. the way the key translates "go away" and its synonyms; I
> > only used "abeo"). I have also ignored the "tmesis". I'll pay attention
> > to these details when I feel a bit more comfortable with the grammar
> > that is featured in these exercises here.
> >
> > I have only done exercise 182 so far, since I think the next lot will be
> > easier when I've had some feedback and seen the key's answers, which I
> > hope will help to clarify things. Thus I'd like to postpone exercise 183
> > until Wednesday, if that's okay.
>
> No prob!
>
> > So, let the nightmare begin:
> >
> > Exercise 182 [A]
> ***** Sentence 4 missing in action! ******
Uups, forgot to type it in:
4. He refused to leave before he had seen the general.
4. Priusquam ducem vidisset, abire noluit.
> > 5. From the time when we heard of the destruction of the army
> > we gave up all hope of safety.
> > 5. Ex quo tempore de exercitus clade certiores facti sumus,
> > salutis spem abiecimus.
>
> (a) "all" untranslated.
> (b) Your "facti sumus" seems better to me than the Key's "facti
> fueramus", which I don't really understand.
No, me neither.
> > 8. They would not depart until they received their pay.
> > 8. Discedere noluerunt donec stipendium acceperent.
>
> The Key's pluperfect (accepissent) is probably more logical, and the
> English would sound at least as good with "had received".
OK.
Looks like it wasn't as bad as I had expected it to be. I'll have a good
look at the key later on.
Thank you!
DH
Johannes Patruus
> Johannes Patruus schrieb:
>
>> ***** Sentence 4 missing in action! ******
>
>
> Uups, forgot to type it in:
>
> 4. He refused to leave before he had seen the general.
> 4. Priusquam ducem vidisset, abire noluit.
The Key's version -
4. Discedere prius noluit quam ducem vidisset.
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
I don't understand this. Isn't "prius" supposed to introduce the
temporal clause and "quam" the main clause? In the English sentence, the
temporal clause is "before he had seen the general", so I would have
expected something like
Ducem prius vidisset quam discedere noluit.
> Johannes
DH
Daniel Hoehr
> EXERCISE 182
> 6. No sooner was the signal given than
> all the soldiers ran forward together.
> 6. Simulatque signum datum est
> milites omnes simul procurrerunt.
The General Vocabulary has "una" for "together". Is this also okay in
this context here?
DH
Johannes Patruus
> Johannes Patruus schrieb:
>
>> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>>
>>> Johannes Patruus schrieb:
>>>
>>>> ***** Sentence 4 missing in action! ******
>>>
>>> Uups, forgot to type it in:
>>>
>>> 4. He refused to leave before he had seen the general.
>>> 4. Priusquam ducem vidisset, abire noluit.
>>
>> The Key's version -
>>
>> 4. Discedere prius noluit quam ducem vidisset.
>
> I don't understand this. Isn't "prius" supposed to introduce the
> temporal clause and "quam" the main clause?
No, it's the "quam" that heads the temporal clause, while the "prius/ante"
is brought forward into the main clause (provided of course that the main
clause comes first) - see BA 443.
Here's a similar L&J example from Prelim Note 16:
17. Go, before you run a worse risk.
17. Prius abi quam peius periculum subeas.
For an analogy, consider "potius quam" (rather than), the two elements of
which may occur either in juxtaposition, or with the "potius" brought
forward as in the following illustration (BA 62:4):
Let us endure everything
rather than act in this matter contrary to our promises.
Omnia potius perferamus quam in hac re aliter ac polliciti sumus faciamus.
(Even in the English, you could re-site the "rather" ahead of "endure".)
> In the English sentence, the
> temporal clause is "before he had seen the general",
> so I would haveexpected something like
> Ducem prius vidisset quam discedere noluit.
If follows from BA 443 that putting the main clause *after* the temporal
clause excludes the possibility of tmesis.
Well, I hope what I've written is correct. It's confusing for me too!!
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
It depends which interpretation of "together" you wish to emphasise:
"in each other's presence" = una.
"at the same time" = simul.
cf. §298 on this page: http://tinyurl.com/cm6lo.
(Useful bookmark: http://tinyurl.com/9fe78)
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
According to BA 443 you are right on and I got it wrong.
I guess it will take a while to get used to the concept of tmesis.
> Johannes
DH
Daniel Hoehr
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
>> Johannes Patruus schrieb:
>>
>>> EXERCISE 182
>>
>>
>>
>>> 6. No sooner was the signal given than
>>> all the soldiers ran forward together.
>>> 6. Simulatque signum datum est
>>> milites omnes simul procurrerunt.
>>
>>
>> The General Vocabulary has "una" for "together". Is this also okay in
>> this context here?
>
>
> It depends which interpretation of "together" you wish to emphasise:
> "in each other's presence" = una.
Or even "participation in the same action."
> "at the same time" = simul.
> cf. §298 on this page: http://tinyurl.com/cm6lo.
I think "simul" is better here, although I can't come to a conclusion.
> (Useful bookmark: http://tinyurl.com/9fe78)
Fantastic!
Thanks!
> Johannes
DH
Daniel Hoehr
temporal clauses, since I feel much more comfortable with them than I
did on Sunday.
Exercise 183 [A]
1. We were all defeated almost before battle was joined.
1. Prius victi sumus fere quam pugna comissa est.
2. The Gauls attacked the camp before our men could man the walls.
2. Galli castra aggressi sunt priusquam nostri valla complerent.
3. After landing the soldiers burnt their fleet.
3. Milites, postquam e navibus egressi sunt, eas incenderunt.
4. We were informed that the general had dismissed his men
after giving them their pay.
4. Certiores facti sumus ducem postquam eis stipendium solvisset
suos dimisse.
5. A crowd assembled before I could reach the temple.
5. Multitudo prius convenit quam ad aedem pervenirem.
6. No sooner had the king appeared, than all the citizens raised a shout.
6. Simulac rex visus est, omnes cives clamorem sustulerunt.
7. When you return you will hear what has taken place.
7. Quum rediveris, certior fies quid actum sit.
8. Advance the standards, my men, before the enemy catch sight of us.
8. Signa, milites, ferte priusquam hostes nos conspexerint.
9. They waited in the road until the king had passed.
9. In via manebant donec rex praeteriverat.
[I hope the pluperfect is OK in here, since N&H say that the pluperfect
should not be used after "postquam" and "simulac" (after "postquam" when
the exact interval of time is stated). They don't say anything about the
pluperfect after "donec," though.]
10. We must remain here until our friends arrive.
10. Nobis hic manendum est donec amici advenirent.
DH
Johannes Patruus
> Here my answers to exercise 183. It seems I'm getting the hang of
> temporal clauses,
Ha, but you have yet to experience the full horrors of "cum" and "dum"!
> since I feel much more comfortable with them than I
> did on Sunday.
You've picked it up much quicker than I ever did!
> Exercise 183 [A]
>
> 1. We were all defeated almost before battle was joined.
> 1. Prius victi sumus fere quam pugna comissa est.
(a) commissa
(b) It may be that the earlier position of "fere" in the Key's answer
affects the meaning, but I'm not sure.
> 4. We were informed that the general had dismissed his men
> after giving them their pay.
> 4. Certiores facti sumus ducem postquam eis stipendium solvisset
> suos dimisse.
(a) dimisisse.
(b) Looks like the "eis" is dispensable (cf. Key). (I still struggle to
know when to drop pronouns!)
> 7. When you return you will hear what has taken place.
> 7. Quum rediveris, certior fies quid actum sit.
redieris. (L&S gives only "redii" for the third principal part.)
> 9. They waited in the road until the king had passed.
> 9. In via manebant donec rex praeteriverat.
(This time L&S allows the "v" in the perfect forms of praetereo.)
> [I hope the pluperfect is OK in here, since N&H say that the pluperfect
> should not be used after "postquam" and "simulac" (after "postquam" when
> the exact interval of time is stated). They don't say anything about the
> pluperfect after "donec," though.]
It would appear from the grammars, e.g., BA 428 Note 1, that this rule
applies only to class (a) in Prelim Note (4).
> 10. We must remain here until our friends arrive.
> 10. Nobis hic manendum est donec amici advenirent.
"Advenirent" is imperfect subjunctive. Since our friends' arrival is in
the future, we need the future or future-perfect indicative - cf. first
illustration in BA 440. If you wanted to use the subjunctive, it would be
in the present tense as in Key's parenthesis in sentence 8 of this Exercise.
Johannes
PS. Re. the new edition of BA, the word from Wauconda is "January" (but
they didn't say which year!!)
Johannes Patruus
Latin answers from the Key.
**************************************************************
EXERCISE 183
1. We were defeated almost before battle was joined.
1. Prius fere victi sumus quam pugna est commissa.
2. The Gauls attacked the camp before our men could man the walls.
2. Galli castra oppugnabant priusquam nostri muros complerent.
3. After landing the soldiers burnt their fleet.
3. Milites postquam e navibus egressi sunt eas incenderunt.
4. We were informed that
the general had dismissed his men after giving them their pay.
4. Certiores facti sumus
ducem postquam stipendium solvisset suos dimisisse.
5. A crowd assembled before I could reach the temple.
5. Turba prius convenit quam ad templum advenirem.
6. No sooner had the king appeared, than all the citizens raised a shout.
6. Simulac rex visus est omnes cives clamorem sustulerunt.
7. When you return you will hear what has taken place.
7. Quum regressus eris quid actum sit audies.
8. Advance the standards, my men, before the enemy catch sight of us.
8. Ferte signa, milites, priusquam nos hostis conspexerit (conspiciat).
9. The waited in the road until the king had passed.
9. In via manebant donec rex praeterierat.
10. We must remain here until our friends arrive.
10. Hic nobis manendum est donec amici nostri advenerint.
****************************************************************
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
> > Here my answers to exercise 183. It seems I'm getting the hang of
> > temporal clauses,
>
> Ha, but you have yet to experience the full horrors of "cum" and "dum"!
>
> > since I feel much more comfortable with them than I
> > did on Sunday.
>
> You've picked it up much quicker than I ever did!
Further practice is urgently needed, so I'm grateful for the BA extracts
you provided. And exercises 184f come in handy for Gaudete Sunday next
weekend.
> > Exercise 183 [A]
> >
> > 1. We were all defeated almost before battle was joined.
> > 1. Prius victi sumus fere quam pugna comissa est.
>
> (a) commissa
> (b) It may be that the earlier position of "fere" in the Key's answer
> affects the meaning, but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure either. My "fere quam" does look a bit dodgy to me, but the
key's answer reads like
"We were almost defeated before battle was joined"
to me.
> > 7. When you return you will hear what has taken place.
> > 7. Quum rediveris, certior fies quid actum sit.
>
> redieris. (L&S gives only "redii" for the third principal part.)
I relied on Whitaker's Words here:
http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?rediveris
Maybe it's better to check L&S first.
> > 9. They waited in the road until the king had passed.
> > 9. In via manebant donec rex praeteriverat.
>
> (This time L&S allows the "v" in the perfect forms of praetereo.)
How nice.
> > [I hope the pluperfect is OK in here, since N&H say that the pluperfect
> > should not be used after "postquam" and "simulac" (after "postquam" when
> > the exact interval of time is stated). They don't say anything about the
> > pluperfect after "donec," though.]
>
> It would appear from the grammars, e.g., BA 428 Note 1, that this rule
> applies only to class (a) in Prelim Note (4).
That's how I understand BA 428 Note 1 too.
N&H seem to keep their hands off "ubi", "ut" and "cum primum".
> PS. Re. the new edition of BA, the word from Wauconda is "January" (but
> they didn't say which year!!)
Let's hope for 2006.
Thanks for your help, the detailed notes, the extra exercises and the key.
DH
Johannes Patruus
> Johannes Patruus schrieb:
>
>> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>>
>> > Exercise 183 [A]
>> >
>> > 1. We were all defeated almost before battle was joined.
>> > 1. Prius victi sumus fere quam pugna comissa est.
>>
>> (a) commissa
>> (b) It may be that the earlier position of "fere" in the Key's answer
>> affects the meaning, but I'm not sure.
>
> I'm not sure either. My "fere quam" does look a bit dodgy to me, but the
> key's answer reads like
>
> "We were almost defeated before battle was joined"
>
> to me.
That's my impression too.
>> > 7. When you return you will hear what has taken place.
>> > 7. Quum rediveris, certior fies quid actum sit.
>>
>> redieris. (L&S gives only "redii" for the third principal part.)
>
> I relied on Whitaker's Words here:
>
> http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?rediveris
>
> Maybe it's better to check L&S first.
Whitaker's Words = assistant.
Lewis & Short = authority.
> N&H seem to keep their hands off "ubi", "ut" and "cum primum".
"Quum primum" surfaces in Exercise 185 (cf. Prelim Note 10).
>> PS. Re. the new edition of BA, the word from Wauconda is "January"
>> (but they didn't say which year!!)
>
> Let's hope for 2006.
Their website is now saying 4 - 6 weeeks:
http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=new&id=5955
> Thanks for your help, the detailed notes, the extra exercises and the key.
You're welcome.
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>> I relied on Whitaker's Words here:
>>
>> http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?rediveris
>>
>> Maybe it's better to check L&S first.
>
>
> Whitaker's Words = assistant.
> Lewis & Short = authority.
Very much so.
Whitaker's Words, however, has turned out to be a bit of an unreliable
assistant on quite a few occasions now.
> "Quum primum" surfaces in Exercise 185 (cf. Prelim Note 10).
Oh yes, I forgot. I still find the spelling "quum" a bit confusing, but
I think it helps to differenciate the conjunction "cum" from the
preposition "cum".
>>> PS. Re. the new edition of BA, the word from Wauconda is "January"
>>> (but they didn't say which year!!)
>>
>>
>> Let's hope for 2006.
>
>
> Their website is now saying 4 - 6 weeeks:
> http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=new&id=5955
amazon.de still claims the book will probably be delivered on 2 November
(no year given).
Daniel