North & Hillard Exercises 100 [A] & 101 [A]
Daniel Hoehr
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exercise 100 [A]
1. We have done this for the sake of helping our friends.
2. By teaching others we learn ourselves.
3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
4. They hastened to Rome for the purpose of defending the city.
5. Are you not desirous of saving your friends?
6. The Romans became great through their desire to obey the laws.
7. The art of ruling others is not easily learnt.
8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
9. An opportunity has been offered for fighting.
10. This seems a good opportunity for defeating the enemy.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Vocabulary:
hasten, propero, I. ; festino, I.
desire, studium, amor, cupido, -inis, f.
desirous, anxious, cupidus.
suffer, patior, -i, passus.
reading, lectio, -onis, f.
win, adipiscor, -i, adeptus.
honour, honos, -oris, m. ; fama.
offer an opportunity, facio potestatem, do occasionem.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Exercise 101 [A]
1. Caesar sent cavalry to bring help to the allies.
2. The officers sent their men to forage in all directions.
3. By obeying the law we show that we are desirous of preserving the
state.
4. He gave his men the signal to advance.
5. The signal was given to advance the standards.
6. The Athenians sent men to Delphi to consult the god.
7. For the sake of pleasing their friends the Senate did many
disgraceful things.
8. He sent messengers to the Aedui to demand hostages from them.
9. No opportunity was left them for retreating.
10 They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Vocabulary:
forage, vb., papulor, I.
n. pabulum.
consult, consulo, -ere, -sului, sultum, acc.
consult interests of, consulo, dat.
disgraceful, turpis.
devote oneself to, studeo, dat.
in all directions, passim.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hoc conferte cum editione typographica.
Merry Christmas!
DH
Johannes Patruus
"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:332qm2F...@individual.net...
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
> Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
> Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
>
> Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Preliminary Notes: (1) - (9) and (16) - (32) of:
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=32gnf8F...@individual.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Exercise 101 [A]
>
> 3. By obeying the law we show that we are desirous of preserving the
> state.
For "law" read "laws", and for "the state" read "our state".
Even if "law" were singular in English, it would generally
be plural in Latin (unless some particular law were meant),
as in the following example (BA Ex.9A:3):
I obeyed, said he, the law in my youth;
I will not break it in my old age.
Legibus, inquit, iuvenis parebam, non violabo senex.
on which Dr Bradley comments in a footnote (old Key p.10):
"Why not 'legi'? - that would mean rather _a_ law, some particular law,
not 'law' in its general sense. Latin does not express abstract ideas
by singular nouns so easily as English."
Johannes
Rolleston
Exercise 100 [A]
1. We have done this for the sake of helping our friends.
Amicis subveniendi causa hoc fecimus.
2. By teaching others we learn ourselves.
Ipsi aliis docendis discimus.
3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
Litteris discendis legere nos iuvare potest[1].
4. They hastened to Rome for the purpose of defending the city.
Romam properaverunt ad urbem defendendam.
5. Are you not desirous of saving your friends?
Nonne amicos tuos servandi cupidus es?
6. The Romans became great through their desire to obey the laws.
Romani legibus parendi studio magni facti sunt.
7. The art of ruling others is not easily learnt.
Ars alios regendi discere non facile est.
8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
Honoris vincendi causa multum dolemus.
9. An opportunity has been offered for fighting.
Occasio pugnandi data est.
10. This seems a good opportunity for defeating the enemy.
Haec videtur esse occasio bona hostium vincendorum.
Notes.
[1] Impersonal "potest".
The meaning of the sentence may be wrong.
Exercise 101 [A]
1. Caesar sent cavalry to bring help to the allies.
Caesar amicis auxilio[1] equites misit.
2. The officers sent their men to forage in all directions.
Praefecti pabulandi causa passim suos miserunt.
3. By obeying the law we show that we are desirous of preserving the state.
Legibus parendis nos cupidos civitatis conservandi ostendimus.
4. He gave his men the signal to advance.
Procedendi signum suis dedit.
5. The signal was given to advance the standards.
Signum signa proferendi datum est.
6. The Athenians sent men to Delphi to consult the god.
Athenienses ad deum consulendum (ad?) Delphos viros miserunt.
7. For the sake of pleasing their friends
the Senate did many disgraceful things.
Amicos delectandi causa senatus plura turpia fecit.
8. He sent messengers to the Aedui to demand hostages from them.
Nuntios obsidium poscendorum causa ad Aeduos misit.
9. No opportunity was left them for retreating.
Nulla occasio pedis referendi eis relicta est.
10 They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
Cupidi litteris se studendi sunt[2].
Notes.
[1] The double dative.
[2] Word order feels awful here.
Corrections welcome.
Thanks,
R.
Johannes Patruus
Latin answers from the Key.
****************************************************************
EXERCISE 100
1. We have done this for the sake of helping our friends.
1. Juvandi causa amicos hoc fecimus.
2. By teaching others we learn ourselves.
2. Alios docendo (aliis docendis) ipsi discimus.
3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
3. Litteras discendo (litteris discendis) lectione possumus frui.
4. They hastened to Rome for the purpose of defending the city.
4. Romam festinaverunt defendendi causa urbem (ad urbem defendendam).
5. Are you not desirous of saving your friends?
5. Nonne cupidus es amicos servandi?
6. The Romans became great through their desire to obey the laws.
6. Studio legibus parendi Romani magni facti sunt.
7. The art of ruling others is not easily learnt.
7. Ars alios regendi non facile discitur.
8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
8. Adipiscendi causa honorem (honoris) multa patimur.
9. An opportunity has been offered for fighting.
9. Occasio data est pugnandi.
10. This seems a good opportunity for defeating the enemy.
10. Haec bona videtur esse occasio hostes vincendi (hostium vincendorum).
****************************************************************
EXERCISE 101
1. Caesar sent cavalry to bring help to the allies.
1. Caesar equites misit ad auxilium sociis ferendum.
2. The officers sent their men to forage in all directions.
2. Praefecti suos in omnes partes pabulandi causa dimiserunt
3. By obeying the laws we show that we are desirous of preserving our state.
3. Legibus parendo nos cupidos praebemus reipublicae servandae.
4. He gave his men the signal to advance.
4. Suis signum dedit progrediendi.
5. The signal was given to advance the standards.
5. Signum datum est signa ferendi.
6. The Athenians sent men to Delphi to consult the god.
6. Athenienses quosdam Delphos miserunt ad deum consulendum.
7. For the sake of pleasing their friends
the Senate did many disgraceful things.
7. Placendi causa amicis patres multa turpia fecerunt.
8. He sent messengers to the Aedui to demand hostages from them.
8. Nuntios ad Aeduos misit postulandi causa obsides.
9. No opportunity was left them for retreating.
9. Nulla eis relicta est potestas se (sui) recipiendi.
10. They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
10. Cupidi sunt litteris studendi.
****************************************************************
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
1. We have done this for the sake of helping our friends.
1. Hoc fecimus iuvandi amicos causa.
1. Hoc fecimus succurrendi/subveniendi amicis causa.
2. By teaching others we learn ourselves.
2. Alios docendo (aliis docendis) nos ipsi discimus.
3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
3. Litteras discendo (litteris discendis) lectione frui possumus.
4. They hastened to Rome for the purpose of defending the city.
4. Romam festinaverunt urbis defendendi causa.
4. Romam festinaverunt ad urbem defendendam.
5. Are you not desirous of saving your friends?
5. Nonne cupidus es servandi amicos (tuos)?
6. The Romans became great through their desire to obey the laws.
6. Romani studio legibus parendi magni facti sunt.
7. The art of ruling others is not easily learnt.
7. Ars alios regnandi/regendi non facile discitur.
8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
8. Honorem (honoris) adipiscendi causa multa patimur.
9. An opportunity has been offered for fighting.
9. Occasio pugnandi data est.
10. This seems a good opportunity for defeating the enemy.
10. Haec videtur occasio bona esse hostes vincendi.
10. Haec videtur occasio bona esse hostium vincendorum.
Exercise 101 [A]
1. Caesar sent cavalry to bring help to the allies.
1. Caesar equites/equitatum misit ad auxilium ferendum sociis.
2. The officers sent their men to forage in all directions.
2. Praefecti papulandi causa suos in omnes partes miserunt.
3. By obeying the laws we show
that we are desirous of preserving our state.
3. Legibus parendo nos cupidos respublicae conservandae praebemus.
4. He gave his men the signal to advance.
4. Suis signum progrediendi dedit.
5. The signal was given to advance the standards.
5. Signum signa ferendi datum est.
6. The Athenians sent men to Delphi to consult the god.
6. Athenienses viros quosdam Delphos ad deum consulendum miserunt.
7. For the sake of pleasing their friends
the Senate did many disgraceful things.
7. Patres amicis placendi causa multa turpia fecerunt.
8. He sent messengers to the Aedui to demand hostages from them.
8. Nuntios ad Aeduos postulandi obsides causa misit.
9. No opportunity was left them for retreating.
9. Nulla potestas se (sui) recipiendi eis relicta est.
10. They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
10. Cupidi sunt litteris studendi.
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Rolleston wrote:
> My translations.
>
>
> Exercise 100 [A]
>
> 8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
>
> Honoris vincendi causa multum dolemus.
I'm not sure about "vinco" in here. It seems to me the Decomposed Ones
mean "win" as in "gain". I don't think "vinco" covers that meaning:
[L&S s.v. vinco: http://tinyurl.com/6al9j]
> Exercise 101 [A]
> 6. The Athenians sent men to Delphi to consult the god.
>
> Athenienses ad deum consulendum (ad?) Delphos viros miserunt.
Since Delphi is a town, I don't think the "ad" is necessary.
Yet, to aniticipate the inevitable question here: What if the oracle
is meant by "Delphi" and not the town?
> 7. For the sake of pleasing their friends
> the Senate did many disgraceful things.
>
> Amicos delectandi causa senatus plura turpia fecit.
I think "multa" is more than enough here.
> 8. He sent messengers to the Aedui to demand hostages from them.
>
> Nuntios obsidium poscendorum causa ad Aeduos misit.
I think the gen. plur. of "obsides" is "obsidum"
cf. the google validator: http://tinyurl.com/5juvc
cf L&S s.v. obsidium (obsideo): http://tinyurl.com/495kr
(obses): http://tinyurl.com/6un8u
> 9. No opportunity was left them for retreating.
>
> Nulla occasio pedis referendi eis relicta est.
>
> 10 They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
>
> Cupidi litteris se studendi sunt[2].
No need for the reflexive, I think (cf N&H Special Vocabularies, 101:
devote oneself to: studeo, dat).
Cheers,
DH
Johannes Patruus
"Rolleston" <roll...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.12.29....@onetel.net.uk...
> My translations.
>
> Exercise 100 [A]
> 3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
>
> Litteris discendis legere nos iuvare potest[1].
> [1] Impersonal "potest".
> The meaning of the sentence may be wrong.
The only circumstance I've come across of 'potest' being used impersonally is
in sentences of the type:
Huic culpae ignosci potest - It is possible to pardon this fault.
Resisti non potuit - Resistance was impossible.
where the dependent infinitive is both passive and impersonal (BA 219(i))
Some further discussion of the impersonal use of posse is to be found in this
thread: http://tinyurl.com/48v3j.
> 8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
>
> Honoris vincendi causa multum dolemus.
Vinco is an unexpected choice of verb.
> Exercise 101 [A]
>
> 1. Caesar sent cavalry to bring help to the allies.
>
> Caesar amicis auxilio[1] equites misit.
> [1] The double dative.
Great, but it kinda defeats the purpose of the exercise! Also, your
translation of "allies" may be open to improvement.
> 3. By obeying the law we show that we are desirous of preserving the state.
>
> Legibus parendis nos cupidos civitatis conservandi ostendimus.
(i) Since pareo is intransitive, must use gerund (parendo) - cf. N&H's
footnote on p.78.
(ii) Concerning the translation of "show", BA 240 Note 1 has:
"'Se monstare' and 'se ostendere' are not used in Latin in the sense of 'show
one's self to be something,' i.e. they are not used as factitive verbs. 'He
showed himself a man of courage' ... can be rendered by : 'virum fortem se
praestitit (or praebuit)".
Cf. also N&H Synonyms section s.v. Show.
(iii) You could have "civitatis conservandae" or "civitatem conservandi"
but not "civitatis conservandi".
> 7. For the sake of pleasing their friends
> the Senate did many disgraceful things.
>
> Amicos delectandi causa senatus plura turpia fecit.
"plura" = more rather than many.
> 10 They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
>
> Cupidi litteris se studendi sunt[2].
It would appear from Vocab 101 that the idea of "themselves" etc. is included
in the meaning of "studeo" and therefore doesn't need to be rendered by "se".
> [2] Word order feels awful here.
I think there is no imperative to put the copulative "sunt" at the end. (I
recall reading something about this, but I can't find it.)
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
> Exercise 100 [A]
>
> 1. We have done this for the sake of helping our friends.
> 1. Hoc fecimus iuvandi amicos causa.
> 1. Hoc fecimus succurrendi/subveniendi amicis causa.
All variants appear to be correct.
> 4. They hastened to Rome for the purpose of defending the city.
> 4. Romam festinaverunt urbis defendendi causa.
> 4. Romam festinaverunt ad urbem defendendam
In your first answer, you could have "urbis defendendae" (gerundive) or
"urbem defendendi" (gerund) but not "urbis defendendi".
> Exercise 101 [A]
> 3. By obeying the laws we show
> that we are desirous of preserving our state.
> 3. Legibus parendo nos cupidos respublicae conservandae praebemus.
respublicae ---> reipublicae. Both parts of this word (often written as
two words) are declined.
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
Johannes Patruus wrote:
> "Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:33f8odF...@individual.net...
>
>
>>Exercise 100 [A]
>>
>>1. We have done this for the sake of helping our friends.
>>1. Hoc fecimus iuvandi amicos causa.
>>1. Hoc fecimus succurrendi/subveniendi amicis causa.
>
>
> All variants appear to be correct.
>
>
>>4. They hastened to Rome for the purpose of defending the city.
>>4. Romam festinaverunt urbis defendendi causa.
>>4. Romam festinaverunt ad urbem defendendam
>
>
> In your first answer, you could have "urbis defendendae" (gerundive) or
> "urbem defendendi" (gerund) but not "urbis defendendi".
"Urbs" being feminine....
>>Exercise 101 [A]
>
>
>>3. By obeying the laws we show
>> that we are desirous of preserving our state.
>>3. Legibus parendo nos cupidos respublicae conservandae praebemus.
>
>
> respublicae ---> reipublicae. Both parts of this word (often written as
> two words) are declined.
OK. I didn't know that.
Thank you!
> Johannes
DH
Rolleston
> "Rolleston" <roll...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.12.29....@onetel.net.uk...
>> Exercise 100 [A]
>
>> 3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
>>
>> Litteris discendis legere nos iuvare potest[1].
>
>> [1] Impersonal "potest".
>> The meaning of the sentence may be wrong.
>
> The only circumstance I've come across of 'potest' being used impersonally is
> in sentences of the type:
> Huic culpae ignosci potest - It is possible to pardon this fault.
> Resisti non potuit - Resistance was impossible.
> where the dependent infinitive is both passive and impersonal (BA 219(i))
I had in mind "non potest esse quin" sentences. When "esse" and
one or two of its compounds are not found in this construction,
passives of other verbs often are, which is consistent with what
you say.
Is "esse" passive ("quasi-deponent"?) ?
The verb is a bit of a special case, and I'm not sure it is often
described as passive. The "non potest esse quin" situation and the
formation of compound passives using forms of "sum" are, perhaps,
arguments in favour of "sum" being passive. Or am I going mad again?
Is this obviously true or clearly false? It's one of those days...
> Some further discussion of the impersonal use of posse is to be found in this
> thread: http://tinyurl.com/48v3j.
>
>> 8. For the sake of winning honour we suffer much pain.
>>
>> Honoris vincendi causa multum dolemus.
>
> Vinco is an unexpected choice of verb.
Quite right: "adipiscor". It's in the vocab.
Anything to do with fish or fishing? That "pisc" is suggestive.
>> Exercise 101 [A]
>>
>> 1. Caesar sent cavalry to bring help to the allies.
>>
>> Caesar amicis auxilio[1] equites misit.
>
>> [1] The double dative.
>
> Great, but it kinda defeats the purpose of the exercise! Also, your
> translation of "allies" may be open to improvement.
I am, like that purpose, defeated. Yes and yes.
>> 3. By obeying the law we show that we are desirous of preserving the state.
>>
>> Legibus parendis nos cupidos civitatis conservandi ostendimus.
>
> (i) Since pareo is intransitive, must use gerund (parendo) - cf. N&H's
> footnote on p.78.
It is the gerund, only it's the rarely used (or discussed)
plural indicating... let's see... cough... "multiple" action.
> (ii) Concerning the translation of "show", BA 240 Note 1 has:
> "'Se monstare' and 'se ostendere' are not used in Latin in the sense of 'show
> one's self to be something,' i.e. they are not used as factitive verbs. 'He
> showed himself a man of courage' ... can be rendered by : 'virum fortem se
> praestitit (or praebuit)".
When I have the time I will check this. Thanks.
> Cf. also N&H Synonyms section s.v. Show.
> (iii) You could have "civitatis conservandae" or "civitatem conservandi"
> but not "civitatis conservandi".
>
>> 7. For the sake of pleasing their friends
>> the Senate did many disgraceful things.
>>
>> Amicos delectandi causa senatus plura turpia fecit.
>
> "plura" = more rather than many.
Really?
Please have a look at L&S, "multus", II.B.2: http://tinyurl.com/3junm
(But: "a great many" =/= "many" )
Also: http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?plus
>> 10 They are anxious to devote themselves to letters.
>>
>> Cupidi litteris se studendi sunt[2].
>
> It would appear from Vocab 101 that the idea of "themselves" etc. is included
> in the meaning of "studeo" and therefore doesn't need to be rendered by "se".
Thanks.
>> [2] Word order feels awful here.
>
> I think there is no imperative to put the copulative "sunt" at the end. (I
> recall reading something about this, but I can't find it.)
Your comments have been very helpful, thank you.
R.
Johannes Patruus
> Johannes Patruus wrote:
> > "Rolleston" <roll...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2004.12.29....@onetel.net.uk...
> :
> >> Exercise 100 [A]
> >
> >> 3. By learning letters we are able to enjoy reading.
> >>
> >> Litteris discendis legere nos iuvare potest[1].
> >
> >> [1] Impersonal "potest".
> >> The meaning of the sentence may be wrong.
> >
> > The only circumstance I've come across of 'potest' being used
impersonally is
> > in sentences of the type:
> > Huic culpae ignosci potest - It is possible to pardon this fault.
> > Resisti non potuit - Resistance was impossible.
> > where the dependent infinitive is both passive and impersonal (BA
219(i))
>
> I had in mind "non potest esse quin" sentences.
I'm not sure I've encountered these before. Googling on the exact phrase
produces post-classical references (Aquinas, &c.).
> When "esse" and
> one or two of its compounds are not found in this construction,
> passives of other verbs often are, which is consistent with what
> you say.
Of the two relevant examples on N&H p.130, it seems to me that "possum" is
personal in "non possum facere quin", and that "potest" is impersonal in
"non potest fieri quin".
Similarly "Dubitare non possum quin" vs "Dubitari non potest quin".
> Is "esse" passive ("quasi-deponent"?) ?
>
> The verb is a bit of a special case, and I'm not sure it is often
> described as passive. The "non potest esse quin" situation and the
> formation of compound passives using forms of "sum" are, perhaps,
> arguments in favour of "sum" being passive. Or am I going mad again?
> Is this obviously true or clearly false? It's one of those days...
Beyond my ken.
[...]
> Your comments have been very helpful, thank you.
You're welcome!
Johannes.
Daniel Hoehr
Johannes Patruus wrote:
> Latin answers from the Key.
> EXERCISE 101
> 6. The Athenians sent men to Delphi to consult the god.
> 6. Athenienses quosdam Delphos miserunt ad deum consulendum.
Is that an ambiguity I see before me?
They sent certain Athenians to Delphi to consult the god.
DH
Johannes Patruus
Good point, especially as 'quidam' used adjectivally generally follows
rather than precedes the noun it qualifies, at least in the instances we
have encountered so far in N&H.
I imagine, though, that in continuous prose, the context would leave
little doubt as to the intended interpretation.
Johannes
Rolleston
[...]
>> I had in mind "non potest esse quin" sentences.
>
> I'm not sure I've encountered these before. Googling on the exact phrase
> produces post-classical references (Aquinas, &c.).
I'm sorry to say that my Latin grammar has been contaminated by contact
with post-classical writing. I should rub it clean with the words of
Caesar, who seems to be a good choice of role model for many of N&H's
translation exercises.
>> When "esse" and
>> one or two of its compounds are not found in this construction,
>> passives of other verbs often are, which is consistent with what
>> you say.
>
> Of the two relevant examples on N&H p.130, it seems to me that "possum" is
> personal in "non possum facere quin", and that "potest" is impersonal in
> "non potest fieri quin".
So, is "non potest fieri quin" the classical equivalent of Aquinas'
"non potest esse quin"? And - this has been troubling me - is there
any sense of futurity in "non potest fieri quin"? Compare "it may
be true (now) that" and "it may come to pass that...".
Thanks again,
R.
Rolleston
> Good point, especially as 'quidam' used adjectivally generally follows
> rather than precedes the noun it qualifies, at least in the instances we
> have encountered so far in N&H.
There are simply too few examples in N&H to rely on,
and Google finds plentiful examples of the other order.
Both orders are well-represented in Cicero's writing:
R.
Johannes Patruus
> Johannes Patruus wrote:
> [...]
> >> I had in mind "non potest esse quin" sentences.
> >
> > I'm not sure I've encountered these before. Googling on the exact
phrase
> > produces post-classical references (Aquinas, &c.).
>
> I'm sorry to say that my Latin grammar has been contaminated by contact
> with post-classical writing. I should rub it clean with the words of
> Caesar, who seems to be a good choice of role model for many of N&H's
> translation exercises.
>
> >> When "esse" and
> >> one or two of its compounds are not found in this construction,
> >> passives of other verbs often are, which is consistent with what
> >> you say.
> >
> > Of the two relevant examples on N&H p.130, it seems to me that
"possum" is
> > personal in "non possum facere quin", and that "potest" is impersonal
in
> > "non potest fieri quin".
>
> So, is "non potest fieri quin" the classical equivalent of Aquinas'
> "non potest esse quin"?
Aquinas: "Sicut ergo, inferiori appetitu non totaliter subiecto rationi,
non potest esse quin contingant inordinati motus in appetitu sensitivo;
ita etiam, ratione hominis non existente subiecta Deo, consequens est ut
contingant multae inordinationes in ipsis actibus rationis." (Summa
Ia-IIae q.109 a.8)
"Just as then there cannot fail to be disordered movements of desire in
the senses so long as this sense-desire is not wholly subject to reason,
so too many disorders arise in the acts of reason itself if man's reason
is not stably submitted to God." (tr. C.Ernst)
> And - this has been troubling me - is there
> any sense of futurity in "non potest fieri quin"? Compare "it may
> be true (now) that" and "it may come to pass that...".
Not that I'm aware of. An N&H example:
Non fieri potest quin illi credamus.
It is impossible for us not to believe him.
I've seen "posse" used the past tense, as in:
Vix fieri potuit quin ...
but not the future (though I haven't been looking for it).
> Thanks again,
>
> R.
Johannes
Rolleston
[...]
> I think the gen. plur. of "obsides" is "obsidum"
It seems it _can_ be, which is not to say it always is.
> cf. the google validator: http://tinyurl.com/5juvc
>
> cf L&S s.v. obsidium (obsideo): http://tinyurl.com/495kr
> (obses): http://tinyurl.com/6un8u
There's one important link missing there, namely:
L&S, "obses": http://tinyurl.com/5nojq
There we find "(gen. plur. obsidium, Caes. B. G. 5, 27;
6, 9; Liv. 2, 13, 97)". I think we may be justified in
using "obsidium" because of the similarity of some of
N&H's exercise sentences to plausible translations of
caesarean extracts of the non-foetal kind. (Too many
ofs in that sentence!)
Thank you for your other helpful (unquoted) remarks,
R.
Rolleston
> 8. [...] we suffer much pain.
> 8. [...] multa patimur.
Doesn't that mean "we suffer much"? That is,
isn't the cause of suffering unspecified?
For comparison:
L&S, "patior": http://tinyurl.com/4hwry
L&S, "doleo": http://tinyurl.com/4an39
Thanks,
R.
Rolleston
[...]
>> And - this has been troubling me - is there
>> any sense of futurity in "non potest fieri quin"? Compare "it may
>> be true (now) that" and "it may come to pass that...".
>
> Not that I'm aware of. An N&H example:
> Non fieri potest quin illi credamus.
> It is impossible for us not to believe him.
>
> I've seen "posse" used the past tense, as in:
> Vix fieri potuit quin ...
> but not the future (though I haven't been looking for it).
Thanks. The reason I asked is that the verb "fieri" used in
other contexts refers to a change of circumstances. Exempli
gratia, "Rex factus est" implies that the subject became or
was made king, and that he he wasn't king before (see note).
R.
Note: "(see note)" added to pad out a short line (see note).
Rolleston
> he he
Oh rats!
R.
Daniel Hoehr
Rolleston wrote:
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
>>8. [...] we suffer much pain.
>>8. [...] multa patimur.
>
>
> Doesn't that mean "we suffer much"?
"We suffer many [things]" (neuter plural)
cf. JP's Prelim Note (20).
> That is,
> isn't the cause of suffering unspecified?
Absolutely (Fabulous).
> For comparison:
>
> L&S, "patior": http://tinyurl.com/4hwry
> L&S, "doleo": http://tinyurl.com/4an39
I would have gone for "doleo" as well, but, as we all know,
We are not here to express ourselves.
We are here to feel the weight of N&H's chains around our
bleeding wrists.
:-)
> Thanks,
>
> R.
DH
Rolleston
> Rolleston wrote:
>> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>>
>>>8. [...] we suffer much pain.
>>>8. [...] multa patimur.
>>
>>
>> Doesn't that mean "we suffer much"?
>
> "We suffer many [things]" (neuter plural)
>
> cf. JP's Prelim Note (20).
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5cvo9
Yes, I'd seen that. Only, I wasn't courageous enough to stray very far
from N&H. You see, I vaguely recall an injunction against translating
"multa dixit" as "he said many things". For the life of me I do not know
what could be wrong with that, but I note that L&S have "neutr. plur.:
multa , orum, many things, [**] much [**]" [http://tinyurl.com/3junm].
Whether suffering many things implies suffering much is a philosophical
question we could struggle with for years. We would do so with little
expectation that the answer would be more satisfying than a glass of
decent wine, and, as there is a nice half bottle of Sauternes in my
kitchen to go with my dessert, the question can go and get stuffed.
The noble rot (Botrytis Cinerea (Edelfäule?)) triumphs over talking rot.
On the subject of sweet wines, there was a bottle of Eiswein in the
local wine shop. Not quite as expensive as Chateau d'Yquem, but still
pretty pricey at £16 for 375ml. Never had a drop of it. Any good?
A couple of quotes by cheery chaps:
[http://www.sant-agostino.it/latino/lettere/lettera_128_testo.htm]
Quam multa patimur ad vitam paulo producendam!
[http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/kempis/kempis3.shtml]
Parum est quod tu pateris in comparatione eorum, qui tam
multa passi sunt, tam fortiter tentati, tam graviter tribulati,
tam multipliciter probati, et exercitati. Oportet igitur aliorum
graviora ad mentem reducere, ut levius feras tua minima.
Happy New Year!
R.
Johannes Patruus
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
> > Rolleston wrote:
> >> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
> >>
> >>>8. [...] we suffer much pain.
> >>>8. [...] multa patimur.
> >>
> >>
> >> Doesn't that mean "we suffer much"?
> >
> > "We suffer many [things]" (neuter plural)
> >
> > cf. JP's Prelim Note (20).
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/5cvo9
>
> Yes, I'd seen that. Only, I wasn't courageous enough to stray very far
> from N&H. You see, I vaguely recall an injunction against translating
> "multa dixit" as "he said many things". For the life of me I do not know
> what could be wrong with that, but I note that L&S have "neutr. plur.:
> multa , orum, many things, [**] much [**]" [http://tinyurl.com/3junm].
> Whether suffering many things implies suffering much is a philosophical
Cf. BA Ex 2a:10 -
At last he held his peace; he had said much and (spoken) long.
Tandem conticuit; multa ac diu dixerat.
In this context "much" and "many things" appear to offer less scope for
divergence than in the N&H sentence.
Johannes
Rolleston
> Cf. BA Ex 2a:10 -
> At last he held his peace; he had said much and (spoken) long.
> Tandem conticuit; multa ac diu dixerat.
>
> In this context "much" and "many things" appear to offer less scope for
> divergence than in the N&H sentence.
Because "dixerat" is unlikely to be found used with "multum"?
A very different specimen:
[http://www.biblio-net.com/lett_cla/testi/factdict_liber_viii.htm]
fertur quoque ori insertis calculis multum ac diu loqui solitus,
quo vacuum promptius esset et solutius.
We can only hope he had a good dentist.
Thanks,
R.
Daniel Hoehr
Rolleston wrote:
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
>>Rolleston wrote:
>>
>>>Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>8. [...] we suffer much pain.
>>>>8. [...] multa patimur.
>>>
>>>
>>>Doesn't that mean "we suffer much"?
>>
>>"We suffer many [things]" (neuter plural)
>>
>>cf. JP's Prelim Note (20).
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/5cvo9
>
>
> Yes, I'd seen that. Only, I wasn't courageous enough to stray very far
> from N&H. You see, I vaguely recall an injunction against translating
> "multa dixit" as "he said many things". For the life of me I do not know
> what could be wrong with that, but I note that L&S have "neutr. plur.:
> multa , orum, many things, [**] much [**]" [http://tinyurl.com/3junm].
Ah.
BTW, ever seen The Sixth Sense? In one scene Dr Malcolm Crowe digs out
an English-to-Latin dictionary in order to translate "de profundis
clamo ad te Domine". The dictionary is an old copy of Lewish & Short,
you can clearly see it in the film.
Should I ever make a remake of that film, I'll let him post an inquiry
to this newsgroup and then you or JP will refer him to the Perseus
online-version of L&S.
> Whether suffering many things implies suffering much is a philosophical
> question we could struggle with for years.
Oh, let's not.
> We would do so with little
> expectation that the answer would be more satisfying than a glass of
> decent wine, and, as there is a nice half bottle of Sauternes in my
> kitchen to go with my dessert, the question can go and get stuffed.
Now, after all the gorging has been done, all the great wines from my
dad's collection have been sampled and all those calories have been
accumulated, my personal focus will be on how to lose a superfluous
kilo or two. But I digress.
> The noble rot (Botrytis Cinerea (Edelfäule?)) triumphs over talking rot.
By all means.
> On the subject of sweet wines, there was a bottle of Eiswein in the
> local wine shop. Not quite as expensive as Chateau d'Yquem, but still
> pretty pricey at £16 for 375ml. Never had a drop of it. Any good?
If you like sweet wines, you will not regret having spent £16 for it.
As my late grandfather used to say, that stuff tastes as if an angel
has peed on your tongue.
Make of that what you will.
> A couple of quotes by cheery chaps:
>
> [http://www.sant-agostino.it/latino/lettere/lettera_128_testo.htm]
>
> Quam multa patimur ad vitam paulo producendam!
>
> [http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/kempis/kempis3.shtml]
>
> Parum est quod tu pateris in comparatione eorum, qui tam
> multa passi sunt, tam fortiter tentati, tam graviter tribulati,
> tam multipliciter probati, et exercitati. Oportet igitur aliorum
> graviora ad mentem reducere, ut levius feras tua minima.
>
> Happy New Year!
And to you!
> R.
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
>
> Rolleston wrote:
>
>> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>>
>>> Rolleston wrote:
>>>
>>>> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 8. [...] we suffer much pain.
>>>>> 8. [...] multa patimur.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't that mean "we suffer much"?
>>>
>>>
>>> "We suffer many [things]" (neuter plural)
>>>
>>> cf. JP's Prelim Note (20).
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/5cvo9
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I'd seen that. Only, I wasn't courageous enough to stray very far
>> from N&H. You see, I vaguely recall an injunction against translating
>> "multa dixit" as "he said many things". For the life of me I do not know
>> what could be wrong with that, but I note that L&S have "neutr. plur.:
>> multa , orum, many things, [**] much [**]" [http://tinyurl.com/3junm].
>
>
> Ah.
>
> BTW, ever seen The Sixth Sense? In one scene Dr Malcolm Crowe digs out
> an English-to-Latin dictionary
Latin-to-English