in medias res --- creber harundinibus tremulis

[Hen Hanna]

I remember many of you as being kind/generous to Newbies (novices):


Semper ad eventum festinat et in medias res /
Non secus ac notas auditorem rapit.

('He always hastens to the issue and hurries his hearers into the
midst of the story as if they knew it already.')


Eng. [festinate] -- I've never heard of this before. wow.

rapit is not French, Spanish... [rapido], funny.

I don't understand the [as if] construction.


Trivia: [Sekasu] (verb) in Jp means [make someone hurry up].

"Hurry! Hurry!"

Koreans say: 빨리빨리 ! (Pali-Pali!)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%EB%B9%A8%EB%A6%AC

____________________________

... secedit humumque effodit et, domini quales adspexerit aures, voce refert parva terraeque inmurmurat haustae indiciumque suae vocis tellure regesta obruit et scrobibus tacitus discedit opertis. creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus coepit et, ut primum pleno maturuit anno, prodidit agricolam: leni nam motus ab austro obruta verba refert dominique coarguit aures. Ultus abit Tmolo liquidumque per aera vectus angustum citra pontum Nepheleidos Helles Laomedonteis Latoius ...


I'm esp. interested in :

creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus coepit et, ut primum pleno maturuit anno, prodidit agricolam: leni nam motus ab austro obruta verba refert dominique coarguit aures.



creber "thickly" -- cognate (descendent) in Eng, French, Ger...?

coepi "I began" -- same question.

prodo "reveal" --

is [do] (and DO in CREDO) unrelated to Eng. [do] ?

unrelated to Latin dossum ?

HH

[Ed Cryer]

Horatius Flaccus; Ars Poetica.

It's become a platitude of narrative. Homer's Odyssey does just that;
start in the middle.
The former comes from "in the Homeric fashion"; faithfully followed by
Vergil's Aeneid.

Non secus ac = sicut ac si

creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus; Ovid Metamorphoses book XI.
"creber lucus"
"coepit" began
"prodidit" produced.

*********************************

Your Korean and European Latin have very, very different roots.

Ed

[Hen Hanna]

hello. and thank you... you told me lots of good info
in a very condensed form.

> creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus coepit et, ut primum pleno maturuit anno, prodidit agricolam: leni nam motus ab austro obruta verba refert dominique coarguit aures.

Joyce took this (and the [in medias res] formula)
and turned it into:

http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/Page_158

The siss of the whisp of the sigh of the softzing at the stir of
the ver grose O arundo of a long one in midias reeds: and shades
began to glidder along the banks, greepsing, greepsing,

http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/Ver_grose_O_arundo
http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/In_midias_reeds

HH

[Ed Cryer]

Picture of a man who's tried and tried and tried to understand Finnegans
Wake;
https://goo.gl/UjbsBv

Ed

[B. T. Raven]

Or, more slavishly tranlated, "not otherwise than."

>>
>> creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus; Ovid Metamorphoses book XI.
>> "creber lucus"
>> "coepit" began
>> "prodidit" produced.
>>
>> *********************************

Ovid, and even more so, Joyce, are authors that clearly demonstrate how
much mere words depend on proper nouns, (that is, names) to provide
context for all meaning. There are of course literary genres that refer
to proper names only sparsely but they are always by that token less
authoritative than writings that present the words in the context of
proper names. History itself consists of nothing but proper names and
the deeds accomplished by certain people at certain places, another
class of proper names.

>>
>> Your Korean and European Latin have very, very different roots.
>>
>> Ed
>
>
> hello. and thank you... you told me lots of good info
> in a very condensed form.
>
>
>> creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus coepit et, ut primum pleno maturuit anno, prodidit agricolam: leni nam motus ab austro obruta verba refert dominique coarguit aures.

A grove thickset with trembling reeds began to grow up there and, as
soon as as it ripened at the peak of the season, it outed its planter:
for, moved by gentle breeze, it brought back the buried words, and
exposed his master's ass'es ears.

This really needs all of the following context to be understood (notice
the word repititions: celo, aperio; tempora, aures; prodo; aura,
auster; terra, tellus; humus effossa, scrobes; ):

ille quidem cēlāre cupit turpīque pudōre 180
tempora purpureīs temptat relevāre tiārīs;
sed solitus longōs ferrō resecāre capillōs
vīderat hoc famulus, quī cum nec prōdere vīsum
dēdecus audēret, cupiēns efferre sub aurās,
nec posset reticēre tamen, sēcēdit humumque 185
effodit et, dominī quālēs adspexerit aurēs,
vōce refert parvā terraeque inmurmurat haustae
indiciumque suae vōcis tellūre regestā
obruit et scrobibus tacitus discēdit opertīs.
crēber harundinibus tremulīs ibi surgere lūcus 190
coepit et, ut prīmum plēnō mātūruit annō,
prōdidit agricolam: lēnī nam mōtus ab austrō
obruta verba refert dominīque coarguit aurēs.

>
> Joyce took this (and the [in medias res] formula)
> and turned it into:
>
> http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/Page_158
>
> The siss of the whisp of the sigh of the softzing at the stir of
> the ver grose O arundo of a long one in midias reeds: and shades
> began to glidder along the banks, greepsing, greepsing,

"The siss of the whisp" is certainly, among other things, the whispering
of the reeds and 'midias' hides the name Midas, but there is far more in
the Mookse and the Gripes episode than can't be found in all of Ovid.

Here is the text:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14LiluuOzTXJyDLf8uTUqNvAHeRwm4jup/view

As in the fragement quoted by Mr.(or Ms.) Hen Hanna (an Irish or Israeli
name?), the Mookse and the Gripes is extremely dense semantically,
except for the introductory paragraph and the coda:

"
As my explanations here are probably above your understand-
ings, lattlebrattons, though as augmentatively uncomparisoned
as Cadwan, Cadwallon and Cadwalloner, I shall revert to a more
expletive method which I frequently use when I have to sermo
with muddlecrass pupils. Imagine for my purpose that you are a
squad of urchins, snifflynosed, goslingnecked, clothyheaded,
tangled in your lacings, tingled in your pants, etsitaraw etcicero.
And you, Bruno Nowlan, take your tongue out of your inkpot!
As none of you knows javanese I will give all my easyfree trans-
lation of the old fabulist's parable. Allaboy Minor, take your
head out of your satchel! Audi, Joe Peters! Exaudi facts!

[......]

And there were left now an only elmtree and but a stone. Polled with
pietrous, Sierre but saule. O! Yes! And Nuvoletta, a lass.
Then Nuvoletta reflected for the last time in her little long life
and she made up all her myriads of drifting minds in one. She
cancelled all her engauzements. She climbed over the bannistars;
she gave a childy cloudy cry: Nuée! Nuée! A lightdress fluttered.
She was gone. And into the river that had been a stream (for a
thousand of tears had gone eon her and come on her and she was
stout and struck on dancing and her muddied name was Missis-
liffi) there fell a tear, a singult tear, the loveliest of all tears (I
mean for those crylove fables fans who are 'keen' on the pretty-
pretty commonface sort of thing you meet by hopeharrods) for it
was a leaptear. But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh!
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
"

Even though this prose style is relatively clear, it needs the context
of the rest of this most novel novel to be understood, the rest of
Joyce's oeuvre to be understooder, and the history of the world to be
understoodest.

Eduardus

p.s. Notice how the professorial narrator comes down on the side of the
professorial-ecclesiastical-political-critical Mookse and against the
Gripes (avatars of Shaun and Shem respectively).

[Hen Hanna]

from what I've found so far, [in medias res]
--> [in midias reeds] (by Joyce)
(and the related topics discussed by Senn, et al)
(ppl disclosing HCE's secrets)
is the most interesting bit of Latin (for me) in FW.


In Classical Idiom: Anthologia Intertextualis
by Fritz Senn

James Joyce Quarterly Vol. 25, No. 1, Twenty-Fifth Anniversary
Issue (Fall, 1987), pp. 31-48

Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25484843
Page Count: 18

I was reading this paper last night
(which you can Read Online (Free) )

it's also in his book [Inductive Scrutinies: Focus On Joyce]

and the most interesting bit (in the paper) is still
[in midias reeds] (by Joyce)

also interesting was Ovid(?)'s maxim (?) about
telling the same story/sentence in
different ways (or modes).
(which is supposed to be applicable to matters of love)

HH

[Patricio]

On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 3:29:08 PM UTC-5, Hen Hanna wrote:
> I remember many of you as being kind/generous to Newbies (novices):

> _____________________
>
> ... secedit humumque effodit et, domini quales adspexerit aures, voce refert parva terraeque inmurmurat haustae indiciumque suae vocis tellure regesta obruit et scrobibus tacitus discedit opertis. creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus coepit et, ut primum pleno maturuit anno, prodidit agricolam: leni nam motus ab austro obruta verba refert dominique coarguit aures. Ultus abit Tmolo liquidumque per aera vectus angustum citra pontum Nepheleidos Helles Laomedonteis Latoius ...
>
> I'm esp. interested in :
>
> creber harundinibus tremulis ibi surgere lucus coepit et, ut primum pleno maturuit anno, prodidit agricolam: leni nam motus ab austro obruta verba refert dominique coarguit aures.
>

> HH

Midas is a kids’ story. There’s no sex, no violence, no nasties of any kind. For every problem there’s a magical solution—Ovid tellingly leaves out the bit about Midas’ daughter.

Midas regrets his choice, but he says he’s sorry (and he really means it) so Bacchus forgives him: just take a bath and you’ll be all better. The barber’s bursting to tell his secret: just dig a hole in the ground and whisper it to the earth. And what kind of problems are they? Kids’ problems. Midas is a greedy little boy who can’t imagine there’s anything bad about wanting more of what’s good. The barber has seen something wicked and exciting; he knows he shouldn’t tell but he just can’t contain himself. The solutions work, with no real consequences. All is forgiven, let’s move on.

Contrast this with almost everything that’s come before and will come after. Phaëthon chooses a foolish, outrageous gift, but does his father take pity on him and find some clever way to back out of the deal? Nuh-uh, no way, this time there’s no going back, and the kid not only dies pitifully but he burns up half the world in the process and threatens to derail time itself. In the Midas story Pan challenges Apollo to a music contest (woodwind vs. strings) and when he loses he just loses, nothing bad happens to him. (Midas gets asinine ears but that’s just funny). But when Marsyas (6.383-400) loses the exact same contest with Apollo, the god rips the skin from his body, flaying him alive till he dies in agony and confusion.

Ovid can’t resist rubbing in the irony. When Bacchus takes pity on Midas, the poet remarks, “Mite deum numen.”


--Patricio

[Hen Hanna]

Ille referre aliter saepe solebat idem (Ovidio, Ars II, 128)


Hoc legat et lecto carmine doctus amet. (AA I.2)


-- how to be facundas. (quoting Senn by HH)