simple English -> Latin translation please
ekantian
ultimate treasure"?
Obviously something beginning "tempus ...", but I haven't studied Latin
since college.
Please post responses, and thanks for any help.
B. T. Raven
"ekantian" <ekan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134257456.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tempus auro pretiosius
Tempus ultra pretium praestat
Tempus est thesaurus extremus aestimandus
ekantian
As in "tempus [insert word here]"?
Thanks again.
B. T. Raven
> Maybe just two words?
> As in "tempus [insert word here]"?
> Thanks again.
>
tempus pretiosum
ekantian
"pretiosum".
Johannes Patruus
> Thx. That's good. But I having trouble getting good definition of
> "pretiosum".
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
"Tempus res pretiosissima"
(Time is the most precious thing.)
Johannes
jlha...@gmail.com
substantive adjective. The Romans weren't as big on throwing "res"
around as we are with "thing." English has largely abandoned the
substantive.
Ed Cryer
<jlha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134421955.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Yes. There's a famous example in Aeneid IV.
Varium et mutabile semper femina.
Woman is a fickle and ever changing thing.
Ed
B. T. Raven
Econtra:
Word frequency 45 per 10K which seems low by a factor of 2 or 3, even for
classical texts. I wonder if they included the impersonal "rêfert?"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.00
59%3Aentry%3D%2341294
or
The related "ratio" is the only only noun I could find with more column
inches dedicated to it.
Old Latin device of unknown provenance:
"Tempus res pretiosissima cuius nulla particula deperdenda"
denken-Ding
reor-res
So etymologically, it's 'whatever you can conceive of.'
Also remember that a lot of the semantic overloading of the English
"thing" occurs in slang and we don't have much Latin slang to compare it
with. When you consider the extremely broad range of meanings covered by
"res" it looks like they were pretty big on throwing it around.
Eduardus
Colin Fine
But my impression (from limited evidence, I admit) is that it is much
more likely to be used of the insubstantial than the physical - and so
that 'thing' is a particularly bad translation. Given the etymological
connection suggest above, I wonder if 'idea' or 'notion' wouldn't be
better translations.
All of which has nothing to do with the original point, since 'idea' and
'notion' will do admirably for 'time'.
Colin
B. T. Raven
"Colin Fine" <ne...@kindness.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dnl4cr$qt7$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Romans in general were much more likely to talk about the physical than
about the insubstantial. The first meaning of 'res' in L. & S. (after
thing) is object. The first citations are from Lucretius, where the
reference is to something concrete 9 times out of 10. One important sense
is that of das Ding an sich, as opposed to the idea, the appearance, the
word. Here's an ocr scan (uncorrected) of the entry from Traupman's
dictionary:
" (quote +/- typos excepted)
res.rei or rei thing; matter, affair; object; cirumstance; event,
occurrence; deed; condition, case; reality, truth, fact; property,
possessions, wealth; estate, effects; benefit, advantage, interest,
profit; business affair, transaction; cause, reason, motive, ground;
historical event; theme, topic, subject matter; (leg) case, suit;
(Mil) operation, campaign, battle; (pol) state, government, politics;
ab re contrary to interests, disadvantageous, useless; ad rem
pertinere to be relevant to the matter at hand; ex re according to
circumstances, according to the situation; ex re istius for his good;
ex re publica for the common good, in the public interest; ex tua re
to your advantage; in re (or re ipsA or reApse or re vera) in fact, in
reality; in re praesenti on the spot; in rem for the good, useful,
advantageous; in rem praesentem on the spot; nil ad rem est
(frequently with ellipsis of est) it is not to the point, it is
irrelevant; ob earn rem for that reason; ob rem to the purpose; pro re
according to circumstances; quae res? what's that? what are you
talking about?; re in fact, in practice, in reality, actually, really;
rem agere(leg) to conduct a case; rem gerere (mil) to conduct a military
operation; rem solvere to settle a matter; res capitalis (or res
capitis) (leg) a case involving the death penalty or loss of civil
rights; res familiaris private property; res frumentaria grain
situation; grain supply; foraging; res judiciaria administration of
justice, department of justice; res mihi tecum I have some business
with you; res pecuaria et rustica livestock; res rustica agriculture;
respublica state, government, politics, public life, commonwealth,
country; res sit mihi cum his let me handle them; res soli real
property, real estate (as contrasted with res mobilis); res uxoria
marriage; dowry; res Veneris sexual intercourse. love making If fpl
Physical phenomena; property; affairs, Public affairs; rerum (w.
superl adj) the best in the world: rerum facta est pulcherrima Roma
Rome became the most beautiful city in the world; rerum Potiri to get
control of the government; rerum scriptor historian, annalist; res
gestae exploits, accomplishments, military achievements; res novae
revolution; res Persicae Persian history, Parthian history; res
prolatae business adjourned (for the holiday); respublicas inire to
enter politics; res secundae prosperity; summa rerum world; universe;
fibi res tuas habe (formula for divorce) take your things and go!
"
Robert Stonehouse
Line number(s)?
This looks like the original of Francis I's:
La femme souvent varie
Bien fol est qui s'y fie
(I don't know how this appears in Victor Hugo's 'Le roi
s'amuse' from which derives)
Verdi's (Boito's?):
La donna est mobile.
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
Ed Cryer
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:4vvrp19s8sehk2fca...@4ax.com...
Mercury appearing to Aeneas once again in a dream and telling him to be
away. I suppose from a modern point of view (if Freud still counts as
modern) it's his subconscious. Women are fickle.
I don't know if it has some Greek precedent. I'd bet very heavily that it
does, amongst all those hundreds of tragedies. Also somewhere in Homer,
although we can maybe rule the Odyssey out because of faithful Penelope
playing such a central role. Even in a Mediterranean with sex goddesses like
Calypso holding your man ensnared for ten years {:-
The Iliad offers far more likely prospects. Helen eloping, Clytemnestra
murdering her husband, Jocasta marrying her son.
Ed
Ed Cryer
Latin loved the "predicative dative", another example of departure from
English simple predication of nouns.
He is a help = est usui (auxilio, susidio)
He is a hindrance = est impedimento
He sent troops as help = copias auxilio misit.
Cui bono = to whom does it do good?
Ed
Grant Hicks
Ed Cryer wrote:
>
> <jlha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1134421955.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> I believe the more proper Latin would be to have "pretiosissimum" as a
>> substantive adjective. The Romans weren't as big on throwing "res"
>> around as we are with "thing." English has largely abandoned the
>> substantive.
>>
>
> Latin loved the "predicative dative", another example of departure from
> English simple predication of nouns.
> He is a help = est usui (auxilio, susidio)
But: Can I be of help? (admittedly not dative)
Grant
Ed Cryer
"Grant Hicks" <ghic...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:O%Cnf.23$3y1...@news.oracle.com...
>
>
> Ed Cryer wrote:
>>
>> <jlha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1134421955.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> I believe the more proper Latin would be to have "pretiosissimum" as a
>>> substantive adjective. The Romans weren't as big on throwing "res"
>>> around as we are with "thing." English has largely abandoned the
>>> substantive.
>>>
>>
>> Latin loved the "predicative dative", another example of departure from
>> English simple predication of nouns.
>> He is a help = est usui (auxilio, susidio)
>
> But: Can I be of help? (admittedly not dative)
>
Vir summae fortitudinis = man of extreme bravery
BUT
Vir fortis = brave man (NEVER vir fortitudinis)
i.e. only with an adjective qualifying the noun.
Staying with the genitive, lots of English usages of this were different in
Latin.
A citizen of Rome = civis Romanus
The art of love = ars amatoria
The art of poetry = ars poetica
What do you make of this attempted Latin sentence;
The art of deceiving people = ars hominum decipiendorum ???
Ed
Grant Hicks
(or, if you prefer, "to be deceived"). From what I've seen, the
gerundive, not its "object", is primary, so that in this example the
"ars" is not "of people" but "of deceiving", just as "studium librorum
legendorum" says nothing about how eager the books themselves are.
Other than the fact that it's not actually a sentence, why "attempted"?
Grant
Ed Cryer
It's nice to compare it with "ars hominum decipientium", which I take to
mean "the skill of men who deceive".
And here we have brought to light another Latin idiomatic usage of the
genitive; subjective/objective genitive.
"Studium librorum" covers both grammatically. Even "studium librorum
bonorum".
Ed
Robert Stonehouse
How about the verb 'valeo' in the sense 'to be worth'?
Perhaps: 'plurimum vale tempus'.
Grant Hicks
Ed Cryer wrote:
English too: the love of a good woman
Grant
Colin Fine
> "Colin Fine" <ne...@kindness.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dnl4cr$qt7$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>
Where 'object' comes after 'matter' and 'affair', and hardly any of the
cited phrases have an unequivocally physical referent.
Colin
B. T. Raven
Comes after 'thing' in L. & S. A few uses tend toward abstraction but in
general res becomes shorthand for a whole congeries of concrete things.
There's really nothing abstract about land, power, livestock, sex,
military operations, etc. Even in the sense of reason, cause, etc. it
almost conjures up the idea of one billiard ball hitting another. In fact
Cicero complained more than once about (classical) Latin's inability to
express abstractions.
Eduardus
Robert Stonehouse
<ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:53:34 +0000, Johannes Patruus
><inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>ekantian wrote:
>>> How do I say "time is precious/priceless/etc." or rather "time is the
>>> ultimate treasure"?
>>>
>>> Obviously something beginning "tempus ...", but I haven't studied Latin
>>> since college.
>>>
>>> Please post responses, and thanks for any help.
>>
>>"Tempus res pretiosissima"
>>
>>(Time is the most precious thing.)
>
>How about the verb 'valeo' in the sense 'to be worth'?
>Perhaps: 'plurimum vale tempus'.
Colin Fine
What's physical about 'power', 'sex' or 'military operations'? They all
involve physical objects, yes, but are themselves abstractions. And even
'land' and 'livestock' are equivocal, at least as English words, since
they both treat the physical objects as property, which is an abstraction.
A billiard ball is physical. The idea of one hitting another is not.
I'm not able to assert that 'res' tends to be immaterial rather than
physical, because I haven't enough knowledge to do so. But I am
suggesting it, and your attempts to refute my suggestion have not so far
been very effective.
Perhaps Cicero's problem was that every abstraction was just a 'res'!
Colin