Conflicting latin translations
Gilz
I was wondering if someone could help me.
I'm trying to translate the phrase, angels watch over me, into latin
and i've had a couple of conflicting translations.
Could someone tell me which one, if any, is correct.
The two translations are as follows
angelus incubo mihi
and
Angeli me custodiunt
Thanks
Gillian
Ed Cryer
"Gilz" <gdo...@tlpsystems.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ce885ae2-ae0c-4359...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
The second one is good Latin and means "angels watch over me".
The first one was written by somebody with a sense of humour.
Ed
Gilz
> "Gilz" <gdon...@tlpsystems.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the reply.
Out of curiosity what did the other translation mean?
Gillian
B. T. Raven
I'm the angel's main squeeze.
Here is the classic expression of what you want to say:
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Basics/AngeleDei.html
Gilz
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow that's a pretty loose interpretation of what i wanted.
Really glad i asked now, and quite shocked since i explained i wanted
the translation for a inscription after my mum died.
Gillian
Brashbey
"Gilz" <gdo...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
ce885ae2-ae0c-4359...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
"Angeli me custodiunt." is correct.
" Angeli mihi custodes sunt."
" Angeli mihi tutores sunt."
"Angeli me tuentur." (tueor, eris, eri)
"Angeli me tutantur." (tutor, aris, ari)
etc.
But in latin language the simplest is often the best. (Please excuse my
english, I'm french. I remember, a long time ago, in Aix-en-Provence
University an excellent teacher who used to repeat that : "Simplify,
simplify !!!" In french : "En thème latin, allez toujours au plus simple.
Par exemple préférez le verbe simple au verbe composé.")
I try to translate : "When you translate from french to ancient latin
language, remember that the simplest is often the best. For example, prefer
a simple verb rather than the compound one."
How do you say that ? "prefer something to" or "rather than" another one ?
prefer using the simple verb than the compound one ? Anyway it was an
excellent advise.
So I suggest :
"Angeli me ament." (cf "Di me ament !")
N.B. : Your first sentence is not good. Sorry. ;-)
Michelle
Gilz
> "Gilz" <gdon...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ce885ae2-ae0c-4359-b835-ccd73cb17...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks, i would like to add i didn't translate this myself ;-D
The first one i asked on another forum, clearly they were trying to be
funny or really unhelpful.
If the second one is generally accepted as being what i meant then
i'll probably use that.
Thanks
Gillian
Brashbey
"Gilz" <gdo...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
0690f898-2806-42dd...@t36g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Thanks
Gillian
Do you mean "Angeli me custodiunt." ?
You may say " Angeli custodes mei sunt."
But "Angeli me custodiunt." is shorter. And suddenly I remember another
advice from my excellent teacher :"Prefer the verb to the abstract noun."
So may be you're right ! ;-)
There is never only one translation.
Michelle
Gilz
> "Gilz" <gdon...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
I meant Angeli me custodiunt although can you explain what the
difference is between that and Angeli custodes mei sunt.
Thanks for all your help.
Gillian
Brashbey
"Gilz" <gdo...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
9d8002b2-82dc-4575...@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
On 7 Apr, 14:37, "Brashbey" <brash...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> "Gilz" <gdon...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 0690f898-2806-42dd-b23d-459ef8d9e...@t36g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On 7 Apr, 14:00, "Brashbey" <brash...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>
> > "Angeli me custodiunt." is correct. " Angeli mihi custodes sunt." "
> > Angeli mihi tutores sunt.""Angeli me tuentur." (tueor, eris, eri)
> > "Angeli me tutantur." (tutor, aris, ari) etc.
> > "Angeli me ament." (cf "Di me ament !")
>
...
> If the second one is generally accepted as being what i meant then
> i'll probably use that.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gillian
>
> Do you mean "Angeli me custodiunt." ?
> You may say " Angeli custodes mei sunt."
> But "Angeli me custodiunt." is shorter. And suddenly I remember another
> advice from my excellent teacher :"Prefer the verb to the abstract noun."
> So may be you're right ! ;-)
> There is never only one translation.
> Michelle-
>
difference is between that and Angeli custodes mei sunt.
Thanks for all your help.
Gillian
"custodiunt" is a verb, "custodes" a noun. May be, if you choose the verb
you insist on the act, and if you choose the noun, you insist on the
personification of the angels "custodientes" doing the action...(watching
over you... or your Mum
Gilz
> "Gilz" <gdon...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks, you picked up on the way i mean the phrase is with regards to
my mum. I mean it more with relation to her being my angel watching
over me.
So maybe your suggestion of "Angeli custodes mei sunt" would be more
apapt.
Thanks
Gillian
B. T. Raven
The first version may not have implied any disrespectful attempt at
humor. The poster may have just looked up some words in a dictionary and
pasted them together as a calque on the English. Another almost
grammatical interpretation of "Angelus incubo mihi" is "(I) an angel
brood over myself" if incubo is used as a verb. Ed and I were thinking
of the noun incubus (or incubo,-onis), the demon lover of a witch (or
maybe a warlock). See the _Malleus Maleficarum_ for more speculation
along these lines.
This is a good example of the impossibility of computer translation. No
matter how much lexicon and grammar is incorporated into the expert
system, there is neither any intentionality nor competent evaluation of
the original meaning(there is no there there) and its version is doomed
to be a random walk. If you don't mean any thing by your words (and a
computer doesn't mean anything), then, however apposite and grammatical
an utterance may be, it is meaningless.
Eduardus
Gilz
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Wow that's a pretty loose interpretation of what i wanted.
>
> > Really glad i asked now, and quite shocked since i explained i wanted
> > the translation for a inscription after my mum died.
>
> > Gillian
>
> The first version may not have implied any disrespectful attempt at
> humor. The poster may have just looked up some words in a dictionary and
> pasted them together as a calque on the English. Another almost
> grammatical interpretation of "Angelus incubo mihi" is "(I) an angel
> brood over myself" if incubo is used as a verb. Ed and I were thinking
> of the noun incubus (or incubo,-onis), the demon lover of a witch (or
> maybe a warlock). See the _Malleus Maleficarum_ for more speculation
> along these lines.
> This is a good example of the impossibility of computer translation. No
> matter how much lexicon and grammar is incorporated into the expert
> system, there is neither any intentionality nor competent evaluation of
> the original meaning(there is no there there) and its version is doomed
> to be a random walk. If you don't mean any thing by your words (and a
> computer doesn't mean anything), then, however apposite and grammatical
> an utterance may be, it is meaningless.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks, i am glad i posted here, to get proper guidance on the
translation.
There must be an astonishing amount of people stung each year by
incorrect computer generated translation!
Gillian
Brashbey
"Gilz" <gdo...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
f086fae5-a662-415d...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gillian
>
> "custodiunt" is a verb, "custodes" a noun. May be, if you choose the verb
> you insist on the act, and if you choose the noun, you insist on the
> personification of the angels "custodientes" doing the action...(watching
> over you... or your Mum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks, you picked up on the way i mean the phrase is with regards to
my mum. I mean it more with relation to her being my angel watching
over me.
So maybe your suggestion of "Angeli custodes mei sunt" would be more
apapt.
Thanks
Gillian
So you may write something like : "Angeli custodes nostri sint !" Or "Utinam
Angeli custodes nostri sint !"
You may use the subjunctive to express a wish as in "God bless you !"
("mei" genitive case for "ego", nostri for "us"= you and your Mum)
The meaning is "May the angels be the guardians of me (or "of us, my Mum and
me)!"
Utinam + subjunctive (present) is used to express wish attainable.
Angeli nominative plural -->
Sint is subjunctive present P3 (= 3d person plural), verb "esse" "to be".
Do you mean something like : "May my Mum watch on me with Angels ?"
Gilz
> "Gilz" <gdon...@tlpsystems.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
> f086fae5-a662-415d-9f32-4c9f55e23...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
No not really i meant that more that i was portraying my mum and other
family as my angels, so it was more, Angels (ie my mum etc) watch over
me
Gillian
Alastor
angelus incube mihi - maybe that's a misquote and should be; angele
incumbe mihi, meaning "Angel, favour me!', or 'Angel, look favourably
on me!'. However, even that sounds a bit unusual.
Alastor
I briefly trolled some Google pages looking for Angele incumbe mihi!
but couldn't find anything. However, it looks like the kind of
inscription you would find on a tomb that features an angel, because
in that case incumbe has a literal sense of leaning on the departed
one as well as a figurative meaning of leaning or inclining towards
the departed (i.e.taking the side of the departed). I suppose it could
also be used in the sense that 'mihi' is the mourner and 'angele' is
an invocation of the departed one. My profoundest sympathies in your
loss. When you are up to a bit of humour - and that's what keeps us
sane in times of loss - you might look at some of these funny epitaphs
in the link below. Many of these epitaphs were well intentioned but
didn't come across the right way (which is a cautionary tale to all of
us: be very, very sure of the epitaph you choose since it will be
around a long time!)
http://www.webpanda.com/ponder/epitaphs.htm
Gilz
Thanks Alastor,
I'm pretty sure no offense was meant by the other translation, i think
it just highlighted that what you say in english can be interpreted
many different ways in another language, such as latin :-D
Gillian
Ed Cryer
Thanks Alastor,
Gillian
*******
"Angelus incubo mihi" is ambiguous; and can mean either "an angel is my
incubus" or "I an angel watch over myself".
You'd have to change the verb to "incubit" to get the meaning "an angel
watches over me". And, even then, the natural word order would be
"angelus mihi incubit".
The ambiguity in the original phrase is (at least to me, quite well
versed in Latin) very clever, and I'd be very surprised if it was the
result of mere accident.
Ed
Decimus Canus
> No not really i meant that more that i was portraying my mum and
> other family as my angels, so it was more, Angels (ie my mum etc)
> watch over me
Gillian,
I think the simple "angeli me custodiunt" is the version you are
looking for. If you would prefer to say that a single angel watches
over you then "angelus me custodit".
--
Decimus...
B. T. Raven
Incumbo, -ere, -ui, -itum but incubo, -are, -ui, -itum or -batum.
Apparently it's even more ambiguous if incubo goes with mihi rather than
with angelus (double dative of advantage). In any interpretation where
incubo is not a verb it seems to need the copula (est angelus = there is
an angel or angelus est = for me for a nightmare or nightstallion. So
incubo can be nom. sing., dat. sing., or 1st person indicative.
Decimus Canus
> The ambiguity in the original phrase is (at least to me, quite well
> versed in Latin) very clever, and I'd be very surprised if it was the
> result of mere accident.
You might think so, Ed, but a little digging with Google finds the
following "Free Online English to Latin Translator".
<http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?
from=English&to=Latin> or <http://preview.tinyurl.com/68wjg>.
Enter the phrase "My guardian angel watch over me" and what does it
return but "Meus Curator Angelus Incubo Mihi"? A further Google search
suggests that a young lady somewhere appears to have or to have had
that very phrase on her Bebo page. I doubt either she or any of her
online friends knows what it really says but they might soon if they
google the Latin phrase as it will turn up this thread.
--
Decimus...
Decimus Canus
> Enter the phrase "My guardian angel watch over me" and what does it
> return but "Meus Curator Angelus Incubo Mihi"?
And indeed the same online translator renders "angels watch over me"
as "angelus incubo mihi". Perhaps I should have tried that first. :-)
--
Dave...
Ed Cryer
"B. T. Raven" <ni...@nihilo.net> wrote in message
news:39mdnQ-zuMhaAmba...@sysmatrix.net...
Predicative dative.
Haec res ei magno fuit dedecori.
Illud mihi dolori est.
Res publica mihi curae est.
Illa res saluti nobis fuit.
Angelus incubo mihi.
Ed
Ed Cryer
"Decimus Canus" <dkah...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:b89b83f5-991d-4642...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
--
Dave...
**************
Now, that takes the biscuit. Congratulations on checking. I suppose if
you changed "incubo" to "incubat" (thanks BT) then it would have been a
passable translation.
Does the online translator always put verbs in the first person
singular?
I'm still quite impressed with the resultant Latin sentence. I'm
wondering about the old probability thought game of monkeys at
typewriters banging on the keys and eventually producing a work of
Shakespeare's.
Ed
Decimus Canus
> Does the online translator always put verbs in the first person
> singular?
Not necessarily. "The Romans built straight roads" is rendered as
"Romanorum constructum rectus via". Ask the tool to turn that bit of
gibberish back into English and it offers "Roman to construct straight
road".
It must be irritating for Gillian that when she originally asked for a
translation into Latin someone with no knowledge of the language
thought it was a good idea to google up an online tool and fob her off
with its output. The two bits of good news are that she had the good
sense to check here, and that a cruel joke was not after all
perpetrated on her by someone who should have known better.
--
Decimus...
Alastor
> "Decimus Canus" <dkahn...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
Ed, where are you going to put all these monkeys? We are talking about
an infinite or astronomical number of them, aren't we? I already have
snakes getting into the house and I don't want any monkeys. But I also
have doubts about the logic of it. For a monkey to have a reasonable
chance of writing 'Measure for Measure' at random, you would need an
astronomical number of universes like ours, or else our universe would
need to contain an astronomical number of worlds like ours, and either
way we are really just talking about the same set of monkeys
reproduced an almost infinite number of times. The probability of
'Measure for Measure' arising from any such set is remote and it
doesn't improve just by multiplying the set ad nauseam. If Shakespeare
was in fact a monkey, that would be a different matter. I wish he
were! Because then I'd feel a whole lot better about things in
general. Also, I think the lady was after an epitaph for her mother's
grave.
However, I agree with you that 'Angelus incubo mihi' does look
fascinating. It has a strange kind of transcendental logic about it,
like one of those Hindu or Buddhist mantras or meditational exercises.
I mean, in order to become like an angel, I would have to keep watch
over my thoughts and feelings just as if I were an angel already. But
if I am an angel already, why should I have to keep watch over my
thoughts and feelings? It's the kind of reasoning that leads in ever
expanding circles to nowhere, like a rock dropped in an infinite
pond.
JAG (Nieuws)
wrote:
>"Gilz" <gdo...@tlpsystems.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ce885ae2-ae0c-4359...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi
>>
>> I was wondering if someone could help me.
>>
>> I'm trying to translate the phrase, angels watch over me, into latin
>> and i've had a couple of conflicting translations.
>>
>> Could someone tell me which one, if any, is correct.
>>
>> The two translations are as follows
>>
>> angelus incubo mihi
>>
>> and
>>
>> Angeli me custodiunt
>
>The second one is good Latin and means "angels watch over me".
>The first one was written by somebody with a sense of humour.
Going back to the original query, my first though for a translation of
"Angels watch over me" would be:
Angeli me custodite
or
Custodite me, angeli
Surely an imperative is the obvious meaning, even without a comma in
the English.
John
**Replies to <u04...@lineone.net> have a 1Kb maximum filter.
Please ask for alternate address if you wish directly to reply,
include a + in the subject line.**
--
John A Green
Leigh (Lancashire) or Aberdeen