"credo in unum deum"
Daniel Hoehr
De praepositione "in":
Didici in scholam ut praepositio "in" accusativum accipit si respondet
quaesitum "unde" (momentum), e.g.
"Aeneas in Italiam navigavit."
Sed ablativum accipit si respondet quaesitum "ubi" (statio), e.g.
"Marcus in Colonia Agrippina habitat."
Sum rectus?
Autem confessio fidei christiana dicit:
"credo in unum deum"
Quaerita mea sunt:
Significatne credendi momentum nec statio aut est hoc modo grammatica
improba? At est hoc pervulgatum in lingua latina ecclesiastica?
Gratias ago vobis.
Valeatis.
Daniel
Johannes Patruus
"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:bqlrfv$23fp45$1...@ID-82123.news.uni-berlin.de...
Lewis & Short have this marked as a usage of Ecclesiastical Latin, and,
unless evidence is produced to the contrary, I would hesitate to read any
great significance into it.
Entry: "credo" II.B.2 @ http://tinyurl.com/xo55
Naturally the baton is taken up by Marracci (Q 2:136):
Dicite [o Moslemi]:
Credimus in Deum, & quod demissum est ad nos [idest Alcoranum],
& quod demissum fuit ad Abraham, & Ismael, & Isaac, & Jacob,
& Tribus [Israel]:
& quod traditum fuit Moysi, & Jesu [idest Pentateuchum, & Euangelium:]
& quod traditum fuit Prophetis a Domino ipsorum:
non facimus discrimen inter ullum ex ipsis
[idest omnes eorum Sacros libros pari reverentia suscipimus]
& nos illi [idest Deo] sumus addicti.
Johannes
Giljoyroy
basic meaning of "credo" implies condfidence. If you say "credo Paulo" you rely
on Paul. Paul will be in the dative. However because their is a movement, or a
relation going from you to Paul in this act of confidence, the evolution of the
language warranted the use of the preposition "in" which indicates such
movement. Saying "credo in Deum" is actually saying: "My whole being is turned
towards God in a movement of surrender to Him."
Mark Johnson
>I think that the medieval Latin was not concerned with classical grammar. The
>basic meaning of "credo" implies condfidence. If you say "credo Paulo" you rely
>on Paul. Paul will be in the dative. However because their is a movement, or a
>relation going from you to Paul in this act of confidence, the evolution of the
>language warranted the use of the preposition "in" which indicates such
>movement. Saying "credo in Deum"
It's "Credo in unum Deum". I believe in one God.
see: http://www.geocities.com/ymjcath/The_Mass.htm
Or "Credo in Deo Patre", as begins the Apostle's Creed. I believe in
God the Father.
>is actually saying: "My whole being is turned
>towards God in a movement of surrender to Him."
DH isn't going to like that.
Jerome comments on the Apostle's Creed, though, to the effect that is
does refer to belief:
"That God then is the Father of His only Son our Lord is to be
believed, not discussed; for it is not lawful for a servant to dispute
about the nativity of his lord. The Father hath borne witness from
heaven, saying,(1) 'This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased:
hear Him.' " . . .
"God is called ALMIGHTY because He possesses rule and dominion over
all things.(1) But the Father possesses all things by His Son . . ."
And so forth.
Peace.
Johannes Patruus
"Giljoyroy" <gilj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031204055715...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> Saying "credo in Deum" is actually saying: "My whole being is turned
> towards God in a movement of surrender to Him."
"Whole being" (and likewise "essence" and "true reality") are meanings which
have been exegetically assigned to the Arabic word "wajh" (literally,
"face") in certain Qur'anic contexts, including the following (6.79), in
which Marracci renders it by its literal meaning (facies):
Certo ego converti faciem meam ad eum qui condidit Coelos & terram.
(Arabic- innî wajjahtu wajh-iya li lladhî faTara s-samâwâti wa l-'arDa.)
A point of interest is that the verb "wajjahtu" ("I have turned") and the
noun "wajh" are cognates (both being derived from the triconsonantal root
w-j-h), and on searching around, I found some discussion of their
interrelationship is the penultimate main paragraph on this page:
http://tinyurl.com/xp4t
"Wajh" also crops up in the 2:112 -
Qui tradiderit faciem suam Deo, & ipse [fuerit] benefaciens
[erit] illi merces sua apud Dominum suum [in Paradiso].
- in which "tradiderit" (surrenders) translates the Arabic verb "aslama"
which is cognate with the nouns "islâm" and "muslim". If I recall, the
degree of universality to be inferred from the "Qui" is a matter of some
contention.
Johannes
bob
Lucius Alter Danieli sal.
>
> Significatne credendi momentum nec statio aut est hoc modo grammatica
> improba? At est hoc pervulgatum in lingua latina ecclesiastica?
Hic usus invenitur apud scriptores Christianos, at tamen usus analogus apud
scriptores vetustiores inspicitur:
convivium in honoren victoriae (Quint. XI.ii.xii)
oratio habita in sexus honorem...(Quint. I.i.vi)
Usus autem praepositionis 'in' cum accsativo frequentius est apud scriptores
ecclesiasticos. Souter, in suo libro nominato "A Glossary of Later
Latin', sub verbo 'credo' scripsit:
(cf. pisteuo), various Christian constructions, esp. in (= eis) with acc.
(of God or Christ), to rest one's faith (trust) on. Aetiologia huius usus
est consimilis, ut nonnulli putant, Sanskrtiae 'crad-dadhati'. Verbo aut
radice 'dadhati' intellegitur Latine 'dat'. Altera explicatio dicit radicem
esse *gredh- 'ligans' (anglice 'binding').
Apud Ecclesiam Romanam 'in' in usu simili invenitur in dictis legis:
privilegium in favorem fidei, quod dicit Anglice privilege or dispensation
in favor of the faith). Usu recentiori 'privilegium in favorem'
frequentissime significat has regulas ad matrimonium nominatas "Privilegium
Paulinum' et 'Privilegium Petrinum'. 'Pribvilegium Fori' quondam erat, fons
discordiae inter reges et Papas, quod iudicium clericorum apud tribunam
ecclesiasticam postulabat.
Cura ut valeas.
bob
Lucius Alter Danieli sal.
Scripseram:
> convivium in honoren
Quintilianus autem 'convivium in honorem' scripserat. 'Honoren' est mendum
dactylographicum.
> cum accsativo
Legas, quaeso, 'cum accusativo'.
> 'Pribvilegium Fori'
Eheu! pribvilegium = privilegium.
Valeas.
Daniel Hoehr
Mark Johnson wrote:
> It's "Credo in unum Deum". I believe in one God.
<thunderous applause>
V-E-R-Y G-O-O-D, Markie!
> Or "Credo in Deo Patre", as begins the Apostle's Creed. I believe in
> God the Father.
V-E-R-Y G-O-O-D!
And now why is the accusative used in "Credo in unum Deum" and the
ablative in "Credo in Deo Patre"? That was my question. I don't find an
answer to that on that flowery webpage of yours, yet others have been
extremely helpful in their replies.
Thanks, by the way!
Daniel
PS: The reason why I can read your stuff is that I don't have filter
functions on my office computer.
Johannes Patruus
> And now why is the accusative used in "Credo in unum Deum" and the
> ablative in "Credo in Deo Patre"? That was my question. I don't find an
> answer to that on that flowery webpage of yours, yet others have been
> extremely helpful in their replies.
> Thanks, by the way!
The accusative and ablative usages are interestingly juxtaposed on this
page:
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/creeds2/htm/ii.xii.i.iii.htm
See also:
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc2/htm/v.xiv.v.htm
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
Thanks for the links. They will be read with interest.
Daniel
Daniel Hoehr
Thanks, Johannes!
Daniel
Daniel Hoehr
That was also how I understood it. This is getting a bit off-topic
maybe, but in German it is very similar:
credo Paulo: Ich glaube Paul (dat)
credo in unum deum: Ich glaube an den einen Gott (acc)
Daniel
Mark Johnson
>"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
>news:3FD058DF...@myrealbox.com...
>> And now why is the accusative used in "Credo in unum Deum" and the
>> ablative in "Credo in Deo Patre"? That was my question. I don't find an
>> answer to that on that flowery webpage of yours, yet others have been
>> extremely helpful in their replies.
>> Thanks, by the way!
>The accusative and ablative usages are interestingly juxtaposed on this
>page:
> http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/creeds2/htm/ii.xii.i.iii.htm
"Pius IX. and Leo XIII., have anathematized Protestantism as a
poisonous pestilence and the mother of all modem evils in Church and
state."
[http://www.bible.ca/history/philip-schaff/6_ch10.htm]
Schaff considered that to be a . . . . bad thing. Note the slight
exaggeration.
I'm just saying . . is all. You might want to double check the sources
he uses. He had a fairly obvious agenda. The fathers are online, at
the same ccel you mentioned. Just double check.
Peace.
Simon Crouch
"Mark Johnson" <1023...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:kh41tv0d7cqh0ao11...@4ax.com...
Schaff's here quoting the Creed of Aquileia according to Rufinus. (It's in a
treatise in which Rufinus compares the creed in use at Rome with that ofhis
home town). Nice and orthodox.
all the best,
Simon.
Edward Casey
[...]
> "Pius IX. and Leo XIII., have anathematized Protestantism as a
> poisonous pestilence and the mother of all modem evils in Church and
> state."
>
Pius Nonus est Leo Decimustertius sectas Obtestantes anathematizavere
veluti pestilentiam venenosam materque omnium malorum ecclesiae et
regnorum.
> [http://www.bible.ca/history/philip-schaff/6_ch10.htm]
>
> Schaff considered that to be a . . . . bad thing. Note the slight
> exaggeration.
>
> I'm just saying . . is all. You might want to double check the sources
> he uses. He had a fairly obvious agenda. The fathers are online, at
> the same ccel you mentioned. Just double check.
Herus Schaff id .... malum esse ratus est. Nota bene superlationem levem.
Tantummodo dico... omne est [?] Velis forte iterum eius fontes inspicere.
Ei fuit consilium agendi satis apertum. Scripta patristica in rete sunt
illo in loco quem memorasti. Modo tibi revisendumst.
Daniel Hoehr
bob scripserat:
Gratias tibi ago ob exemplos et explicationes.
Valeas!
Daniel
bob
Lucius Alter Danieli sal.
>
> Gratias tibi ago ob exemplos et explicationes.
Est autem quaestio altera: cur scriptores Ecclesiastici hunc articulum
'credo in unum deum' illi 'credo in uno deo anteponerent. Rem esse
principium grammaticorum non esse.
Scriptores Ecclesiastici qui novis verbis ad novas res describendas uti
saepe conarentur plurima verba et articulos novos et significationes
verborum veterum novas faciebant, quorum alii in usum communem manerent,
alii relinquerentur: consideres, precor, exemplis prioris, confortari,
veraciter, mortificare; exemplis posterioris, 'paganus', 'sacramentum'
(iusiurandum quondam militis), in pace dormiunt; exemplis verborum
relictorum, minister (pro 'diaconus'), honorati (pro 'clerici) (cf. Palmer,
'The Latin Language', caput VII).
In Tertulliano (Mart. XXX.i.ix) legitur:
vocati sumus ad militiam dei vivi iam tunc cum in sacramenti verba
respondemus.
Formula 'credo in uno deo, ut mihi videtur, est exemplum articuli relicti.
Articulus 'credo in unum deum', qui usum Graecum (eis theon) imitaret atque
qui haereditatem ex scriptoribus vetustioribus orientem haberet, obtinuit.
inque novos soles audent se germina tuto
credere, nec metuit surgentes pampinus Austros
aut actum caelo magnis Aquilonibus imbrem,
sed trudit gemmas et frondes explicat omnes. (Verg.
Georg.II.cccxxxii-cccxxxv)
Damaso super cathedram Petri regnante formae rituum condebantur. Exemplum de
Ecclesia Aquileia ab Iohanne Patruo citatum est res consuetudinum variarum
quae inter Ecclesias veteres obtinebant. Post Damasum formae liturgicae,
dummodo motus Conciliorum ad canones immutandos vergeret, minus ad usus et
ad consuetudines regionales pertinebant. Exemplum ex Venantio Fortunato
(saeculo VI), ex aetate oritur in qua plurimae formae canonicales etiam
conditae sunt. Ad tempus Fortunati articulus 'credo in deum' usum 'credo in
deo' favore canonico hierarchico etiam privaverat ut alius, dummodo
reliqueretur alius, maneret.
Tua quaestio igitur plus ad formationem canonum quam ad res grammaticas.
Cura ut valeas.
bob
Lucius Alter Damieli sal.
> crad-dadhati
srad-dadhati est forma melior in litteris Romanis. Sonus <s [s']> est <sh>
potius quam <ch>.
Valeas.
bob
Lucius Alter Danieli sal.
Scripseram:
> Rem esse
> principium grammaticorum non esse.
Mihi ignoscas qui menda dactylograhica evitare nequeam.
Legas 'rem esse principium grammaticorum non puto".
Valeas.
Giljoyroy
Gilles Roy
Mark Johnson
>"Mark Johnson" <1023...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>news:kh41tv0d7cqh0ao11...@4ax.com...
>> "Johannes Patruus" <JPat...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
>> >news:3FD058DF...@myrealbox.com...
>> [http://www.bible.ca/history/philip-schaff/6_ch10.htm]
>> Schaff considered that to be a . . . . bad thing. Note the slight
>> exaggeration.
>> I'm just saying . . is all. You might want to double check the sources
>> he uses. He had a fairly obvious agenda. The fathers are online, at
>> the same ccel you mentioned. Just double check.
>Schaff's here quoting the Creed of Aquileia according to Rufinus. (It's in a
>treatise in which Rufinus compares the creed in use at Rome with that ofhis
>home town). Nice and orthodox.
And five others, right. But no, but, Schaff himself . . isn't. So you
really should double-check. There is nothing more certain than the
history of Protestant revisionism. And Schaff may well have been part
of that school. I'm just saying - double-check.
Peace.
Daniel Hoehr
bob scripsit:
>
> Lucius Alter Danieli sal.
>
>>Gratias tibi ago ob exemplos et explicationes.
>
>
> Est autem quaestio altera: cur scriptores Ecclesiastici hunc articulum
> 'credo in unum deum' illi 'credo in uno deo anteponerent. Rem esse
> principium grammaticorum non esse.
>
> Scriptores Ecclesiastici qui novis verbis ad novas res describendas uti
> saepe conarentur plurima verba et articulos novos et significationes
> verborum veterum novas faciebant, quorum alii in usum communem manerent,
> alii relinquerentur: consideres, precor, exemplis prioris, confortari,
> veraciter, mortificare; exemplis posterioris, 'paganus', 'sacramentum'
> (iusiurandum quondam militis), in pace dormiunt; exemplis verborum
> relictorum, minister (pro 'diaconus'), honorati (pro 'clerici) (cf. Palmer,
> 'The Latin Language', caput VII).
>
> In Tertulliano (Mart. XXX.i.ix) legitur:
>
> vocati sumus ad militiam dei vivi iam tunc cum in sacramenti verba
> respondemus.
>
> Formula 'credo in uno deo, ut mihi videtur, est exemplum articuli relicti.
> Articulus 'credo in unum deum', qui usum Graecum (eis theon) imitaret atque
> qui haereditatem ex scriptoribus vetustioribus orientem haberet, obtinuit.
In lingua Graeca praepositio "eis" accusativum accipit, ut recte
scripsisti. Fortasse "credo in unum deum" non solus imitaret usum
Graecum sed etiam translatio Latina ex Graeca esset. Lingua Ecclesiae
in saeculis primis lingua Graeca erat neque Latina.
> inque novos soles audent se germina tuto
> credere, nec metuit surgentes pampinus Austros
> aut actum caelo magnis Aquilonibus imbrem,
> sed trudit gemmas et frondes explicat omnes. (Verg.
> Georg.II.cccxxxii-cccxxxv)
>
> Damaso super cathedram Petri regnante formae rituum condebantur. Exemplum de
> Ecclesia Aquileia ab Iohanne Patruo citatum est res consuetudinum variarum
> quae inter Ecclesias veteres obtinebant. Post Damasum formae liturgicae,
> dummodo motus Conciliorum ad canones immutandos vergeret, minus ad usus et
> ad consuetudines regionales pertinebant. Exemplum ex Venantio Fortunato
> (saeculo VI), ex aetate oritur in qua plurimae formae canonicales etiam
> conditae sunt. Ad tempus Fortunati articulus 'credo in deum' usum 'credo in
> deo' favore canonico hierarchico etiam privaverat ut alius, dummodo
> reliqueretur alius, maneret.
>
> Tua quaestio igitur plus ad formationem canonum quam ad res grammaticas.
>
> Cura ut valeas.
Gratias tibi ago ob explicationem tuam. Censeo tempus esse ut librum
de historia catholicae ecclesiae legam.
Valeas
Daniel