"Getting/deserving the shi*ty end of the stick", ancient Roman saying?

[Poetic Justice]

Some of the claims I've read state that it's derived from the 'sponge
on a stick' that was used in the Roman latrines?

I believe this is likely a myth and was wondering if there are any
classical referrences linked to this saying?
Regards, Walter

[Ed Cryer]

A "fustis" was used for beating people to death.
The "fasces" carried by lictors was a bundle of rods and axe; the rods,
no doubt, used in early times for a hefty whack.

Wrong end, short end, shitty end; all variations on a theme of some
stick that does damage. Maybe the axe-head in the fasces was the end
that did most damage;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fasces_lictoriae.svg

Ed

[Poetic Justice]

Thanks Ed as always.

And another myth bits the dust :(, pity because I kind of liked the
sponge-stick theory. Regards, Walter

..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...

[Ed Cryer]

The Roman toilets were very open affairs. Your neighbour sat feet away
from you, in full view; no partitions. If you asked him to pass the
wiping-stick, how else would he hold it out but with the handle, so that
the sponge end would always be towards you?
To put it in other words, you always got the wrong end of the stick in
such a situation.
Unless, maybe, you had an angel for a neighbour, and he held the dirty
end when passing it.

Ed

[Poetic Justice]

Ed Cryer wrote;

>The Roman toilets were very open affairs.

I recall one ancient writer (Cicero?) who mentions a person by name that
would hang around a public latrine being friendly to people in hopes
that they would invite him to dinner:).

>Your neighbour sat feet away from you, in
>full view; no partitions. If you asked him to
>pass the wiping-stick,

Actually unless you forgot:) you would pick-up a sponge-stick from the
brine-water basin when you entered and deposit it back in the basin for
the next person when you were leaving.

A before with basins and after;
www.sewerhistory.org/images/wh/whr/whr01.jpg
http://visitingtheancients.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/WatermarkedLatrine.jpg

That view while you were doing your business would be the large outdoor
park surrounded by the Porticus of Pompey.

I have this vision of a Senator with his toga hiked-up around his waist
sitting there on March 15, 44BC ~11AM hearing a ruckus going on in the
Curia next door thinking "What the hell is that all about", oh well I
have more important business to attend too right now :-). Regards,

[Ed Cryer]

http://tinyurl.com/cqxmdmz
Anybody who got hold of the wrong end of that stick must have been in a
tizzy hurry!

They called it a "spongia" (sponge). I've searched the corpus for signs
of a stick, but found nothing relevant.
I like this little epigram from Martial;
Haec tibi sorte datur tergendis spongia mensis
Utilis, expresso cum levis imbre tumet.

(Here's a sponge useful for cleaning tables when it swells light after
the rain has been squeezed out.)

Ed

[Poetic Justice]

I posted on a messageboard about Ostia Antica and the latrines.

I was googling and came across something that might be of interest to a
Latin Group and seeing I already had an ancient latrine thread
ongoing:).


I have seen this fresco in Ostia but not knowing Latin I had no idea it
was ancient toilet humor:) with a mention of a 'sponge on a stick'.
Regards, Walter

www.ostia-antica.org/regio3/10/10-2.htm

'The room of the Seven Sages'

The building was named after the paintings in room 5.
Most of the walls of this room belong to a pre-existing building from
the late-Flavian period (Domitianus).
The paintings belong to the Hadrianic or early-Antonine period.

The "seven Greek sages" are depicted, who all lived around 600 BC.
Their names and city of origin are painted in Greek next to them:

SOLÒN ATHÈNAIOS ("Solon of Athens")

THALÈS MEILÈSIOS ("Thales of Milete")

CHEILÒN LAKEDAIMONIOS ("Chilon of Sparta") [Bias]

PRIÈNEUS ("[Bias] of Priene")

(Cleobulus of Lindos, Pittacus of Mitylene, and Periander of Corinth
have not been preserved).


Humorous, ironic texts in Latin refer to activity in the latrine (photos
on website, scroll down):

VT BENE CACARET VENTREM PALPAVIT SOLON ("Solon rubbed his belly to
defecate well")

DVRVM CACANTES MONVIT VT NITANT THALES ("Thales recommended that those
who defecate with difficulty should strain")

VISSIRE TACITE CHILON DOCVIT SVBDOLVS ("The cunning Chilon taught how to
flatulate unnoticed")

[---]ENIS BIAS.


Below Solon is the text:

IVDICI (?) | OR(di)NA (?)
and
VERGILIVM LEGIS(se) PVERIS (?)

Below Thales we read:

VERBOSE TIBI | NEMO | DICIT DVM PRISCIANV(s) | (?) (u)TARIS XYLOSPHONGIO
NOS | (? a) QVAS ("No one gives you a long lecture, Priscianus, as long
as you use the sponge on a stick ...").


Below the sages the heads have been preserved of people (photos on
website, they show from the chest up) that are probably sitting on a
communal latrine (plaster added later and a bench cover the lower part).

We can read what they say:

MVLIONE SEDES, PROPERO ("I'm making haste")

AGITA TE CELERIVS | PERVENIES ("Push hard, you'll be finished more
quickly")

AMICE FVGIT TE PROVERBIVM | BENE CACA ET IRRIMA MEDICOS [1].
(Also what does this one translate too, it's not on the website)

Above the sages and on the vault are paintings of a flying male figure
(perhaps Pan) and of amphorae, one with the word FALERNVM, referring to
high-quality Campanian wine, one with the letter M.

This suggests that originally the room was a bar, that was obviously
visited by well-educated people.

In the Antonine period new paintings covered the sages.

The room may now have become a destrictarium, a room where athletes
cleaned their body with strigiles (scrapers).

[Ed Cryer]

That sounds like a poets' hang-out; maybe the ancient Ostian equivalent
of some Parisian terrace-cafe with clientèle like Jean Paul Sartre,
Simone de Beauvois and Albert Camus. And when the lesser mortals visit
they have to bring it down.

XYLOSPHONGIO is Greek; and the "xylo" bit means "wooden stick". All
Google hits refer to this one occurrence.

AMICE FVGIT TE PROVERBIVM | BENE CACA ET IRRIMA MEDICOS [1]

= "Friend, the saying escapes you; shit well and blow the doctors."

MVLIONE SEDES, PROPERO = "You're sitting on a mule-driver, I'm hurrying up".

Ed

[Poetic Justice]

Ed, Thanks as always for the translations and additional info.

>That sounds like a poets' hang-out; maybe
>the ancient Ostian equivalent of some

>Parisian terrace-cafe with clientèle like

>Jean Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvois
>and Albert Camus.

>And when the lesser mortals visit they
>have to bring it down.

I wonder if it's possible that they were poking fun at themselves?

The seated Sages and their words of wisdom and below that a seated
representation of the elite patrons of this bar at a communal latrine
and their words of wisdom:-)?

I think the sad part is that the latrine portion of this fresco is gone.

It would have given us an insight on how this everyday event was
performed...well not the main event:-).

But the little tidbits like what a sponge-stick actually looked like
(leather strap on handle?), how it was used (1 or 2 handed?), exactly
how the water channel at their feet was used (was the sandal's sole used
to squeeze the sponge to rinse it for the next pass:), etc.

Weird I know:) but these type of minor everyday events and things in the
ancient's lives just facinate me. Regards, Walter

[Ed Cryer]

The old Roman toilets seem remarkably well constructed, and well preserved.
http://tinyurl.com/bwn8duk
You've got to hand it to their engineers. Some of the things they did
(especially the army engineers) are quite stunning.

What other civilization's monuments will last as long as the aqueducts,
amphitheatres and sewers?
They built them to last.

Ed