Question about an idiom / figure-of-speech in Indo-European languages
kds...@yahoo.com
Hello,
I wonder if any contributors to this group would assist me by
addressing an inquiry. (It has to do with some research into an
ancient Persian dialect.) The question pertains to an entire family of
languages, though -- of course -- I would expect contributors to this
group to address it with respect to the language this group is
dedicated to.
The English words 'herd' and 'sheep' colloquially and figuratively
mean, and are used to connote, the great mass of common folk,
especially the group-think'ing masses and/or what are known as the
'plaebians' or the 'proletariat'. I would agree that these words, when
used in the specified sense, carry a slight pejorative implication, and
so I must clarify that any such implication is of no relevance to my
inquiry. (Up until a century ago, 'cattle' was another word that was
figuratively used with very nearly the same connotation but in our time
it is infrequently used in that sense.)
I am interested in knowing whether (the equivalents of) 'herd' and
'sheep' plus 'cow', 'ox', 'cattle', and/or 'kine' colloquially and
idiomatically have the same or similar connotations in the language
under consideration.
(Also, I am interested in finding out whether such words are suspected
or known to have had the same connotations in the following defunct
languages: Sumerian, Hittite, Vedic, and Sanskrit.)
Thank you for any help.
Klaus Scholl
by the Church.
The Shepherd (= Reverend) herds (= takes care of) his Herd (= Community)
of Sheeps (= Christians).
In Latin it's Pastor, Grex, Ovis. (Christus is called Agnellus).
I dont know who invented this Allegoria (Agustinus? I guess they came up
earlier).
A Greet from Klaus
Daniel Hoehr
> The Terms "Herd", "Sheeps" and "Shepherd", belong to an Allegoria used
> by the Church.
You mean "allegory". Or maybe "metaphor"?
> The Shepherd (= Reverend) herds (= takes care of) his Herd (= Community)
> of Sheeps (= Christians).
Oddly, the plural of "sheep" is "sheep".
> In Latin it's Pastor, Grex, Ovis. (Christus is called Agnellus).
In English, I think, it's "Christ".
Christ is not called "Agnellus" but "agnus Dei".
altera die videt Iohannes Iesum venientem ad se et ait
ecce agnuis Dei qui tollit peccata mundi
[Vulgate, Secundum Iohannem, 1:29]
> I dont know who invented this Allegoria (Agustinus? I guess they came up
> earlier).
The image of the shepherd and the herd comes directly from the New
Testament. There was no need to "invent" it since shepherds and their
flock, just like many other images used in both the Old and the New
Testament, were part of everyday life in rural Palestine in the days of
the Bible.
cum ergo prandissent, dicit Simoni Petro Iesus
Simon Ioannis diligis me plus his
dicit ei
etiam Domine tu scis quia amo te
Dicit ei
pasce agnos meos
dicit ei iterum
Simon Ioannis, diligis me
ait illi
etiam Domine tu scis quia amo te
Dicit ei
pasce agnos meos
Dicit ei tertio
Simon Ioannis amas me
contristatus est Petrus quia dixit ei tertio amas me
et dixit ei
Domine tu omnia scis tu scis quia amo te
Dixit ei
pasce oves meas.
Amen amen dico tibi
cum esses iunior cingebas te et ambulabas ubi volebas
cum autem senueris extendes manus tuas et alius te cinget et ducet
quo non vis
hoc autem dixit significans qua morte clarificaturus esset Deum
et cum hoc dixisset dicit ei
sequere me.
[Vulgate, Secundum Iohannem 21:15 - 19]
> A Greet from Klaus
DH
Daniel Hoehr
> altera die videt Iohannes Iesum venientem ad se et ait
> ecce agnuis Dei qui tollit peccata mundi
or even: agnus Dei :-)
Greet from the typing-impaired am Rosenmontag.
DH
Robert Stonehouse
Older than that: Psalm 100.2
Be ye sure that the Lord he is God. It is he that hath made
us, and not we ourselves: we are his people, and the sheep
of his pasture.
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
Ed Cryer
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:v7c5021jkpf6lfil6...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:43:05 +0100, Klaus Scholl
> <sch...@sensualium.cjb.net> wrote:
>
>>The Terms "Herd", "Sheeps" and "Shepherd", belong to an Allegoria used
>>by the Church.
>>The Shepherd (= Reverend) herds (= takes care of) his Herd (= Community)
>>of Sheeps (= Christians).
>>In Latin it's Pastor, Grex, Ovis. (Christus is called Agnellus).
>>I dont know who invented this Allegoria (Agustinus? I guess they came up
>>earlier).
>
> Older than that: Psalm 100.2
> Be ye sure that the Lord he is God. It is he that hath made
> us, and not we ourselves: we are his people, and the sheep
> of his pasture.
>
lao:n" (shepherd of the people) in the Iliad.
Ed
Mike Lyle
Thinking of the OP, though, in these cases there's no pejorative
implication. But I see that Plautus has an example of "sheep" for
"simpleton". Horace, Catullus, and Juvenal all have "pecus" derogatively
for people, apparently in our modern snobbish sense.
--
Mike.