Latin for "seize the opportunity"?
Paul Stivers
seize the moment - (something like "carpe diem"?)
and
seize the opportunity - ?
Thanks,
Paul S.
Edward Casey
"Paul Stivers" <pstiver...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9477978E3...@15.8.40.106...
> I'm looking for the Latin for:
>
> seize the moment - (something like "carpe diem"?)
carpe diem
>
> and
>
> seize the opportunity - ?
carpe diem
Remember "dies" is also time, generically speaking, e.g. "Dies veritatem
aperit" or something like that.
or if they have to be different then maybe:
carpe punctum temporis
carpe ansam
Eduardus
Paul Stivers
> or if they have to be different then maybe:
> carpe punctum temporis
> carpe ansam
>
Thanks Edward.
What is the meaning of ansam? Opportunity? or something similar?
I've never had any Latin training. I'm an engineering project lead who
wants to explain to an organization of about a hundred people, during a
presentation tomorrow morning, in a way that will be a little different and
interesting, that we're seizing the opportunity.
Paul S.
Paul Stivers
> carpe ansam
Oh yeah, and how do you pronouce 'ansam.' sort of like ansum?
Paul S.
Mark J. Reed
> > or if they have to be different then maybe:
> > carpe punctum temporis
> > carpe ansam
> >
>
> Thanks Edward.
>
> What is the meaning of ansam? Opportunity? or something similar?
Literally, an "ansa" is an object's handle; "ansam" is just the
object-of-the-sentence form of the same word.
Mark J. Reed
> Oh yeah, and how do you pronouce 'ansam.' sort of like ansum?
That depends somwhat on which pronunciation of Latin you choose to
follow. In the English-speaking world, there are at least three:
1. The Anglicized pronunciation. This basically boils down to
"pronounce the Latin as if it were English". English words
that were borrowed from Latin a long time ago, including specialized
legal and medical jargon, underwent pronunciation changes right along
with the rest of the English language, and to this day doctors and
lawyers tend to pronounce Latin this way (thus we have a writ of
"habeus corpus" whose first word is pronounced "HAY-be-us"). In
this pronunciation, I would expect "ansam" to come out rather like the
word "handsome" minus the leading "h".
2. The Ecclesiastical pronunciation. The Roman Catholic Church decided
centuries ago that the pronunciation of Latin should be standardized;
prior to that point everyone pronounced Latin according to their local
language rules, so in France Latin sounded like French, in England like
English (as above), in Germany like German, etc. Since the Church was
based in Rome, they chose the Italian pronunciation, and this is how
Church Latin is still spoken and sung. It basically boils down to
"pronounce the Latin as if it were Italian", although there are some
differences from modern Italian pronunciation. In this pronunciation,
"ansam" would sound like "AHN-sahm".
3. The Restored Classical pronunciation. In more modern times, scholars
have been able to reconstruct what is likely a very accurate picture of
how the Romans of Caesar's day actually pronounced Latin, specifically
the Classical variety (used in formal speeches before the Senate, etc.,
but distinct from the common "Vulgar" Latin spoken in everyday life,
which was already starting to sound a bit more like modern Italian).
According to this pronunciation, "ansum" is more like "UHN-suhm".
Although the vowel is not quite an "uh", nor is it an "ah", but
somewhere in between.
-Mark
Paul Stivers
Thanks for all the help. I'm gonna go with carpe diem for "seize the
opportunity."
John Briggs
Perhaps we ought to mention that Buffy thought 'carpe diem' meant ' fish of
the day'.
:-)
--
John Briggs
Javi
> I'm looking for the Latin for:
>
> seize the moment - (something like "carpe diem"?)
As others have said, carpe diem.
> and
>
> seize the opportunity - ?
Occasio calvata
--
Saludos cordiales
Javi
Mood conjugation:
I enjoy a drop
You never say no
He is an alcoholic
(Craig Brown)
Giljoyroy
your recall of "Carpe Diem" is part of a lecture or demonstration, it might be
good to invoke the American film "Dead poets society". There is a famous scene
in which the teacher explains Horace's "Carpe Diem" as seize the opportunity,
the chance that you have to make something of your life. It is interesting to
see that Horace's "Carpe Diem" had several interpretations, with Ronsard
(Mignone, allons voir si la rose) and even Herrick (To the Virgins...). In the
American film, the twist is much more uplifting.
rolleston
> Literally, an "ansa" is an object's handle; "ansam" is just the
> object-of-the-sentence form of the same word.
According to my old friends, Mr Lewis and Mr Short, "Ansa" as
"opportunity" is rarely used, and only by Cicero in the classical
period. But if it's good enough for Cicero, it's good enough for
me. I did find a later example of it using Google:
Hinc ansam arripio observandi
Apparently this is from: www.c18.org/pr/lc/lc003/371231-00.html
When I got to that page, it did not appear.
R.
rolleston
> Occasio calvata
Cassell's has "occasionem adripere", which would be
"occasionem adripe" with the imperative. I wouldn't
mind knowing what definition you have for "calvata".
L&S have "calvor" = "to devise tricks". At the top
of the entry: "access. form cal-vo , ere, v. infra".
No idea what "access" means. Admissible? I've also
seen "calvata" = "bald" (W. Whitaker's Words).
I Googled your words:
[Carmina Burana, http://tinyurl.com/27jsw]
Fortune plango vulnera
stillantibus ocellis
quod sua michi munera
subtrahit rebellis.
Verum est, quod legitur,
fronte capillata,
sed plerumque sequitur
*Occasio calvata*.
"calvata" here has nothing to do with "seizing".
R.
Paul Stivers
> Paul Stivers wrote:
>> seize the opportunity - ?
>
> Occasio calvata
>
Oooh, I like that one. Has a nice ring, and not as commonly known as
carpe diem.
I already presented with "carpe diem." It went well. I said, "It means
'seize the opportunity' or 'seize the moment' or someone told me it means
"seize the carp!" It got a good laugh. Then I went on to describe the
opportunity at hand and how we were seizing it.
giljoyroy mentioned the Dead Poets movie. That's exactly where I got the
idea. I believe carpe diem was translated as "seize the moment" in that
movie. I think I got the "seize the carp" from a movie too, either the
same movie or another one. I was thinking along John Brigg's line, in
terms of humor.
Thanks again. It's so cool that I can consult with people around the
world on this sort of thing and get good answers and ideas within
minutes/hours.
Take care,
Paul S.
Rolleston
> "Javi" <poziyo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Paul Stivers wrote:
>
> >> seize the opportunity - ?
> >
> > Occasio calvata
> >
>
> Oooh, I like that one. Has a nice ring, and not as commonly known as
> carpe diem.
You wouldn't be interested in a second-hand
Hungarian phrasebook, would you?
R.
Paul Stivers
You're confusing me R. You're not hinting that occasio calvata is
Hungarian are you :^).
Paul S.
Javi
Of course, not. It is a Latin proverb, not a literal translation.
Let nothing pass which will advantage you;
Hairy in front, Occasion's bald behind.
[Lat., Rem tibi quam nosces aptam dimittere noli;
Fronte capillata, post est occasio calva.]
- Dionysius Cato, Disticha de Moribus (II)
C. 1590 Marlowe Jew of M. v. ii, - Begin betimes; Occasion's bald behind;
Slip not thine opportunity.
And, if you can read Spanish, here is an explanation:
http://www.aplicaciones.info/utiles/frase22.htm
Javi
I forgot that you said in other of your messages that you cannot read
Spanish. Here is a brief explanation in English:
http://dirk.holoweb.net/~liam/pictures/oldbooks/proverbs/text.html
"... it therefore teaches to be active and vigorous, to take Time by the
Fore-lock, which is bald behind, and being past can't be laid hold on;
according to the Latin, Fronte capillata est, post est occasio calva ..."
rolleston
> > "calvata" here has nothing to do with "seizing".
>
> Of course, not. It is a Latin proverb, not a literal translation.
It's not any kind of translation.
Javi wrote:
>> I'm looking for the Latin for:
:
>> seize the opportunity - ?
>
>Occasio calvata
A translation was requested.
R.
Javi
A translation was given, and also an explanation.
rolleston
> >> Occasio calvata
> >
> > A translation was requested.
>
> A translation was given, and also an explanation.
Not by you. At least, not until four days later after
being prompted. Your initial posting was irrelevant.
R.
Javi
> "Javi" <poziyo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<bv7pu0$p5c0n$1...@ID-177688.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>>>> Occasio calvata
>>>
>>> A translation was requested.
>>
>> A translation was given, and also an explanation.
>
> Not by you.
Maybe my message was lost in cyberspace. It happens. Here, again, is the
translation and the Latin text:
Let nothing pass which will advantage you;
Hairy in front, Occasion's bald behind.
[Lat., Rem tibi quam nosces aptam dimittere noli;
Fronte capillata, post est occasio calva.]
- Dionysius Cato, Disticha de Moribus (II)
And an explanation in English:
http://dirk.holoweb.net/~liam/pictures/oldbooks/proverbs/text.html
"... it therefore teaches to be active and vigorous, to take Time by the
Fore-lock, which is bald behind, and being past can't be laid hold on;
according to the Latin, Fronte capillata est, post est occasio calva ..."
If you have any trouble understanding this explanation (clue: "Time" means
"occasio"), feel free to ask, but do not expect an inmediate answer.
For those who can read Spanish, here is a detailed explanation:
http://www.aplicaciones.info/utiles/frase22.htm
> At least, not until four days later after
> being prompted.
I am sorry if four days is too long for you. I have a life, and I have
priorities. Usually, I don't read this newsgroup daily. If you plan to keep
on posting to Usenet, then I inform you that any period of time less than a
week before answering is not considered bad manners.
> Your initial posting was irrelevant.
For you, surely. For other people here who know Cato's disticha or the
Carmina Burana, it was not. The original poster, to whom I was responding,
seems to have understood it. In Latin countries, at least in Spain, we still
have a proverb quite similar to the original. Here we say "la ocasión la
pintan calva".
Is there any native speaker of other Romance (or whatever) languages here
who can tell wether a similar proverb is used in their mother tongues?
rolleston
Your message was not lost to me. This really isn't very
difficult. It's becoming very tedious. Let me explain
this as simply as possible.
A request was made for a translation:
> I'm looking for the Latin for:
:
> seize the opportunity - ?
You responded with:
> Occasio calvata
You left it at that. It is not a translation.
It is singularly inappropriate. I do not know why
you wrote it. Since you added nothing to it, it
looked like a suggested translation. That is the
most reasonable view of it.
The person who asked the question would probably not
have known it was not a translation. He wrote:
> I've never had any Latin training.
You gave extra detail later when prompted.
Your later message should have been your first message.
Now, is that clear or do I need to break it down to
the atomic level? Sentences are placed next to one
another for a reason. Bear that in mind in future.
R.
bob
> From: roll...@onetel.net.uk (rolleston)
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
> Date: 28 Jan 2004 16:02:02 -0800
> Subject: Re: Latin for "seize the opportunity"?
Actually the expression enjoys, as Javi has so appropriately and wittily
pointed out, proverbial status of great antiquity. Occasio was Opportunity
or Time personified as a goddess.
Cursu uolucri, pendens in nouacula,
caluus, comosa fronte, nudo corpore,
quem si occuparis, teneas, elapsum semel
non ipse possit Iuppiter reprehendere,
occasionem rerum significat breuem.
Effectus impediret ne segnis mora,
finxere antiqui talem effigiem Temporis. (Phaedrus V.viii)
fortune plango vulnera
stillantibus ocellis
quod sua michi munera
subtrahit rebellis.
verum est, quod legitur,
fronte capillata,
sed plerumque sequitur
Occasio calvata.
Rem tibi quam nosces aptam dimittere noli;
Fronte capillata, post est occasio calva.
As Javi has noted, Marlowe, well trained in the classics, not only was
familiar with the proverb, but had no difficulty in getting the point.
C. 1590 Marlowe Jew of M. v. ii, - Begin betimes; Occasion's bald behind;
Slip not thine opportunity.
You wrote:
> It's not any kind of translation.
Javi had written:
> It is a Latin proverb, not a literal translation.
Well, I guess I don't quite understand why a proverb, a metaphor, or a
metonymy wouldn't serve as a translation. After all, the venerable 'carpe
diem' doesn't really 'mean' seize the opportunity. 'To seize' is a tropical
sense of carpo, the primary sense of which is to pluck, to pick, to gather,
to cull, etc.
It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to understand Occasio calvata as
Occasio calvata (sit). Occasio calvata, however, is all that is required. I
like it. Marlowe liked it.
Javi gets my vote for accuracy, creativity, and decorum.
Bob
Giljoyroy
translation of "Seize the opportunity", since the English is already the
translation of Horace's famous injunction to "le bon vivant": "[...] Dum
loquimur, fugerit invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero (Liber
Primus Carminum, XI). Ronsard, Herrick and many others have tried to give their
own versions of it, always enticing the young to seek as much peasure out of
furtive life as possible. But the American movie, Dead Poets' society gives the
same advice a much nobler twist. See the scene in which the teacher uses "carpe
Diem" to tell his students that the must make their lives an opportunity to
create something good. So much for the superficiality of Hollywood! Some of
them are deep.
rolleston
> Well, I guess I don't quite understand why a proverb, a metaphor, or a
> metonymy wouldn't serve as a translation.
Opinions will differ as to how close a translation must be
to the original. To my mind "opportunity is hairless"* is
some distance from what was requested. As I understand it,
a proverb is a fixed form of words in common use. What is
the fixed form in this case?
Further, there is a difference between a commonly used
metaphor and a proverb. "carpe diem" is a proverb. Is
"calva occasio" or "calvata occasio"? What seems to be
lacking is the "post" bit. Without that, or something
similar, "calva occasio" makes no sense as a proverb.
For if opportunity is bald, there is no possibility of
seizing it. Not now, not ever. "calva occasio" looks
more and more like a metaphor drawn from a proverb. And
that is even further away from the requested translation
than the proverb would be. But do prove me wrong :)
[L&S, occasio: http://tinyurl.com/2em6o]
R.
* you might choose "left bare" or "shaved"
or something else altogether.
Edward Casey
"rolleston" <roll...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:51105e8.04012...@posting.google.com...
If you think that's obscure, how about: "A cold horseshoe has no ponytail"
? [Soleae ferreae frigidae sunt nulli capilli concinnati sicut cauda
mannuli.]
rolleston
>
> If you think that's obscure, how about:
> "A cold horseshoe has no ponytail"
> ?
> [Soleae ferreae frigidae sunt nulli
> capilli concinnati sicut cauda mannuli.]
What on earth can it mean?
They're rubbish these proverbs:
You can't have your cake and eat it.
Of course you can. I did this morning. Very nice too.
R.
Edward Casey
My concoction conflated the two sayings "Strike the iron while it's hot"
and "Occasio calvata." Btw, I'm sure the cake was scrumptious but don't
email me the piece you ate. Since it's already been had it can no longer
be reeaten.
Eduardus
rolleston
> Btw, I'm sure the cake was scrumptious but don't
> email me the piece you ate. Since it's already been
> had it can no longer be reeaten.
Indeed. I had it and I had it. Then I thought, "I'd
better have it before I've had it". And I had it.
Then I had it. Now I need more cake like a hole in
the head. If it wasn't for the hole in the head I
couldn't have it. And have it. Or have said "I'd
better have it before I've had it". Its called a
mouth. And it says this:
non si puo avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca
R.
bob
> From: roll...@onetel.net.uk (rolleston)
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
> Date: 29 Jan 2004 06:15:06 -0800
> Subject: Re: Latin for "seize the opportunity"?
>
> As I understand it,
> a proverb is a fixed form of words in common use. What is
> the fixed form in this case?
Or of imagery.
Occasio calvata, occasio calva and its various permutations and
accoutrements, as transmitted from antiquity into the very recent past or
near preseent, are what you call the fixed form. But this is really a
fiction, since proverbs are really no more fixed than ballads, folk songs,
and the like which are transmitted - however verbatim - in a variety of
forms and versions. A brief scan of the appendices of Grimm's "Teutonic
Mythology" will provide numerous parallel and crosslinguistic examples of
proverb and folk saying dissemination.
That the proverbial or commonplace nature of the expression at hand does not
leap out into the eager embrace of immediate and familiar recognition is
more of a commentary on contemporary education than on the proverbial status
of the words themselves. Expressions, for a variety of reasons, and under a
wide range of pressures, gain or lose in currency. Ancient literature, from
the works of the named greats through the nugae of the obscure and the
anonymous of the Palatine Anthology, is abundant with extinct proverbs,
popular and literary commonplaces. As Mr. Briggs has pointed out, even
'carpe diem' may well be on its way to becoming the fish of the day.
> What seems to be
> lacking is the "post" bit. Without that, or something
> similar, "calva occasio" makes no sense as a proverb.
> For if opportunity is bald, there is no possibility of
> seizing it.
Really, nothing is lacking beyond a lively apprehension of the traditional
material. You could say the same of carpe diem (which, in its popular
applications is far removed from the Horatian context): it's sense is
perhaps incomplete without quam minimum credula postero, or, for that
matter, without the pun inherent in the name of the young lady to whom the
poem is addressed, namely Leuconoe. And then knowledge of the expulsion of
Chaldean soothsayers in 139 B.C. certainly broadens one's appreciation of
the text and its cultural milieu. But it is surely a vacuous task, as I
think, to impose requirements of logical consistency on popular expressions.
At any rate, in the iconography of Occasio, if you must, the hair is to
avoid recognition, the hairlessness to aid it, and sometimes to make capture
and retention difficult.
sum dea quae rara et paucis OCCASIO nota.
quid rotulae insistis? stare loco nequeo.
quid talaria habes? volucris sum. Mercurius quae
fortunare solet, trado ego, cum volui.
crine tegis faciem. cognosci nolo. sed heus tu
occipiti calvo es? ne tenear fugiens. (Aus. Ep. XXXIII.iii-viii)
Yet, as you must know, Occasio is not merely a lady to be subdued. When she
is captured there is an element of favoritism, of submission, of choice
involved. But these are literary conventions which may be contradicted as
often as they are expressed. And those readers or hearers of earlier times
would have felt little onus to treat Occasio Calvata in the manner of an
examination of how many angels might dance on the head of a pin or why the
Queen of Elfland's horse had nine and fifty silver bells on its harness
rather than fifteen or twenty nine or perhaps bosses instead of bells. The
framers of such inquiries, unlike our Thomas of Erceldoune would scarcely
have been able to carry on an intelligent conversation with the Lady - never
mind entertain her with poetry.
> "calva occasio" looks
> more and more like a metaphor drawn from a proverb.
As the examples from the Carmina Burana, Cato, Phaedrus, Marlowe, and even
Ausonius indicate, this is ex post facto hair splitting ensuing from a
viewpoint hardened in the foundry rather than shaped in the tradition. Until
the 20th century most educated individuals would have had few if any
difficulties with the expression. But then I have seen young folk stare
blankly at Walter De La Mare's suggestion that Linoleum should have been a
Mediterranean seaport. And John Crowe Ransom's humor and erudition, as
expressed in the immortal
And murdering of innumerable beeves...
if it and the commonplaces from which it draws its effect elude the hearer,
then what are we to make of
Bid Amaranthus all his beauty shed,
And Daffodillies fill their cups with tears
To strew the laureate hearse where Lycid lies...?
What then of the fons itself?
has, hyacinthe, tenes, illas, amaranthe, moraris;
pars thyms, pars casiam, pars meliloton amant.
The awareness of what, for the purpose of this discussion, has been
designated the proverbial or the commonplace, varies in proportion, I think,
to one's awareness of the tradition, to what Eliot or Mallarme might have
called 'the dialect of the tribe', which, after all is said and done, must
be the true provenance of literature and language.
If the Bible, the Vulgate, the classical and medieval traditions, the
popular traditions and the associations which follow on them, cease to be
second nature, then they become so much dust in a reliquary. But the failing
is not with the traditional, the proverbial, the commonplace. It rests with
the ever narrowing focus of the heirs. The traditional doesn't die. It
merely becomes obscured by the neglect and the ignorance of subsequent
generations. That we would not recognize or would try to rationalize away
our cultural roots is an indication both of our loss and our diminution.
He hes Blind Hary and Sandy Traill
slaine with his schour of mortall haill,
quhilk Patrik Johnestoun myght nocht fle;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
He hes reft Merseir his endite,
that did in luf so lifly write,
so schort, so quyk, of sentence hie;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
He hes tane Roull of Aberdene,
and gentill Roull of Corstorphin;
two bettir fallowis did no man se;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
In Dumfermelyne he hes done roune
with Maister Robert Henrysoun;
Schir Johne the Ros embrast has he;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
And he hes now tane, last of aw,
gud gentill Stobo and Quintyne Schaw,
of quham all wichtis hes pete:
Timor mortis conturbat me.
Gud Maister Walter Kennedy
in poynt of dede lyis veraly,
gret reuth it wer that so suld be;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
Sen he hes all my brether tane,
he will nocht lat me lif alane,
on forse I man his nyxt pray be;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
Sen for the deid remeid is none,
best is that we for dede dispone,
eftir our deid that lif may we;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
Bob
(Occasio calvata)
(Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan?)
Timor mortis conturbat me...
Robert Stonehouse
>> From: roll...@onetel.net.uk (rolleston)
>> Organization: http://groups.google.com
>> Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
>> Date: 28 Jan 2004 16:02:02 -0800
>> Subject: Re: Latin for "seize the opportunity"?
>> A request was made for a translation:
>>
>>> I'm looking for the Latin for:
>>> seize the opportunity - ?
>>
>> You responded with:
>>> Occasio calvata
>>
>> You left it at that. It is not a translation.
>As Javi has noted, Marlowe, well trained in the classics, not only was
>familiar with the proverb, but had no difficulty in getting the point.
>
>C. 1590 Marlowe Jew of M. v. ii, - Begin betimes; Occasion's bald behind;
>Slip not thine opportunity.
>
>You wrote:
>> It's not any kind of translation.
>
>Javi had written:
>> It is a Latin proverb, not a literal translation.
>
> Well, I guess I don't quite understand why a proverb, a metaphor, or a
>metonymy wouldn't serve as a translation. After all, the venerable 'carpe
>diem' doesn't really 'mean' seize the opportunity. 'To seize' is a tropical
>sense of carpo, the primary sense of which is to pluck, to pick, to gather,
>to cull, etc.
>
>It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to understand Occasio calvata as
>Occasio calvata (sit). Occasio calvata, however, is all that is required. I
>like it. Marlowe liked it.
On the one hand, a proverb can do the job for which (so far as I can
see) a translation was requested. But the two words 'Occasio calvata'
('Opportunity having been made bald') on their own are not enough to
convey the idea of 'taking time by the forelock'. The Marlowe example
shows it plainly
The locus classicus is in the Disticha Catonis (2.26 according to L&S
s.v. capillatus):
"Fronte capillata, post est occasio calva",
"The brow being haired, at the back is Opporunity bald".
The point is that Opportunity has hair at the front - grasp that
quickly and you are all right - miss it, and there is no hair at the
back, you have lost your chance.
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted.
rolleston
> Occasio calvata, occasio calva and its various permutations and
> accoutrements, as transmitted from antiquity into the very recent past or
> near preseent, are what you call the fixed form. But this is really a
> fiction, since proverbs are really no more fixed than ballads,
There must be limits to their variability. A sequence of words
becomes a proverb through repetition. If the saying radically
alters every time we say it, there is no repetition.
> That the proverbial or commonplace nature of the expression at hand does not
> leap out into the eager embrace of immediate and familiar recognition is
> more of a commentary on contemporary education than on the proverbial status
> of the words themselves.
The words were proverbial. They are no longer so.
> > What seems to be
> > lacking is the "post" bit. Without that, or something
> > similar, "calva occasio" makes no sense as a proverb.
> > For if opportunity is bald, there is no possibility of
> > seizing it.
>
>
> Really, nothing is lacking beyond a lively apprehension of the traditional
> material.
I will be convinced you if you adduce evidence. Feel free to
put forward 3 or 4 examples of the words "calva(ta) occasio"
being used proverbially *in isolation*.
> You could say the same of carpe diem
Not at all. I could find hundreds of instances of these two
words being used as a complete proverb. Whatever Horace
may have said, whatever the literal meaning of the words,
"carpe diem" is a proper and complete English proverb. It
does not look out of place with a sentence to itself.
> > "calva occasio" looks
> > more and more like a metaphor drawn from a proverb.
>
> As the examples from the Carmina Burana, Cato, Phaedrus, Marlowe, and even
> Ausonius indicate, this is ex post facto hair splitting ensuing from a
> viewpoint hardened in the foundry rather than shaped in the tradition.
It is not hair-splitting. It is about using the words with their
conventional meaning. If we don't do that, difficult though it is,
everything blends together and no meaningful arguments can be made.
The innumerable echoes of the Classical Tradition do, no doubt,
resound in a head such as yours. In all likelihood, the dull
material of Javi's skull does not respond to such subtle tones.
He just cocked it up. That's not a crime in itself. The capital
offence is the know-it-all attitude of a not-knowing-enough person.
"I can add, for our younger students..."
Please!
If I'm wrong-headed, let him show it through the careful use of words.
R.
rolleston
> On the one hand, a proverb can do the job for which (so far as I can
> see) a translation was requested. But the two words 'Occasio calvata'
> ('Opportunity having been made bald') on their own are not enough to
> convey the idea of 'taking time by the forelock'. The Marlowe example
> shows it plainly
I think the most favourable interpretation is that
"calva occasio" is elliptical. It might be similar
to what occurs from time to time in English, e.g.,
"pot, kettle, black" as a kind of compressed proverb.
It remains to be seen whether "calva occasio" was ever
used that way. Many examples of its use in situ have
been given. I have yet to see a single example, apart
from the one that occurs in Javi's message, where the
words occur as a stand-alone saying.
R.
John Briggs
Tetigisti acu - in Renaissance emblem books Chance (or Opportunity) is
personified as a woman standing (running?) on a rolling ball with her hair
streaming in front of her, but with the back of her head bald (or shaved).
I was a little concerned that the "bald behind" was not being glossed
earlier! (At a hairdressers' I once saw a young lady having the back of her
head shaved: once done, this was fully concealed by the long hair being
drawn back into a pony tail - but I missed the opportunity of addressing her
as Tyche!)
--
John Briggs
rolleston
> I was a little concerned that the "bald behind"
> was not being glossed earlier!
Yes, I was trying to construe "post" rudely, but it
wouldn't work. On occasion someone turns up here
looking for a Latin tattoo. I'd hate to think that
some axe-murderer, recently released from gaol on a
technicality, would end up with "fundus calvus"
on his face. Or whatever else anyone happens to
suggest next. It pays to take care with words.
R.
Javi
> bob <por...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:<BC3EE426.937E%por...@ix.netcom.com>...
>> Occasio calvata, occasio calva and its various permutations and
>> accoutrements, as transmitted from antiquity into the very recent
>> past or near preseent, are what you call the fixed form. But this is
>> really a fiction, since proverbs are really no more fixed than
>> ballads,
>
> There must be limits to their variability. A sequence of words
> becomes a proverb through repetition. If the saying radically
> alters every time we say it, there is no repetition.
>
>> That the proverbial or commonplace nature of the expression at hand
>> does not leap out into the eager embrace of immediate and familiar
>> recognition is more of a commentary on contemporary education than
>> on the proverbial status of the words themselves.
>
> The words were proverbial. They are no longer so.
Wrong. Dead wrong. Google for "ocasion" and "calva". You will find more than
two thousand hits.
Anyway, it does not really matter what it is *now*. Latin is no longer a
mother language. You just want to keep on this argument in a futile attempt
to not totally lose face. I am afraid that you are only making it worse.
>>> What seems to be
>>> lacking is the "post" bit. Without that, or something
>>> similar, "calva occasio" makes no sense as a proverb.
>>> For if opportunity is bald, there is no possibility of
>>> seizing it.
>>
>>
>> Really, nothing is lacking beyond a lively apprehension of the
>> traditional material.
>
> I will be convinced you if you adduce evidence. Feel free to
> put forward 3 or 4 examples of the words "calva(ta) occasio"
> being used proverbially *in isolation*.
http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camena/bald1/books/baldepoemata1_12.xml.txt
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost13/CarminaBurana/bur_cmo
2.html
http://www.toutfait.com/issues/issue_3/News/clair/clair2.html
There are more, but I am feeling a bit tired of doing your homework.
>> You could say the same of carpe diem
>
> Not at all. I could find hundreds of instances of these two
> words being used as a complete proverb. Whatever Horace
> may have said, whatever the literal meaning of the words,
> "carpe diem" is a proper and complete English proverb. It
> does not look out of place with a sentence to itself.
>
>>> "calva occasio" looks
>>> more and more like a metaphor drawn from a proverb.
>>
>> As the examples from the Carmina Burana, Cato, Phaedrus, Marlowe,
>> and even Ausonius indicate, this is ex post facto hair splitting
>> ensuing from a viewpoint hardened in the foundry rather than shaped
>> in the tradition.
>
> It is not hair-splitting. It is about using the words with their
> conventional meaning. If we don't do that, difficult though it is,
> everything blends together and no meaningful arguments can be made.
Your problem seems to be that you lost face when you wrote that silly
message about "second-hand Hungarian phrasebook". Now you are behaving as a
troll.
> The innumerable echoes of the Classical Tradition do, no doubt,
> resound in a head such as yours. In all likelihood, the dull
> material of Javi's skull does not respond to such subtle tones.
The best defense is a good attack, you seem to believe. You are getting
personal. You failed to catch the clues that you found
"verum est quod legitur
fronte capillata
sed plerumque sequitur
occasio calvata"
any clever person would have wonder what "quod legitur" meant, and would
have google for "fronte capillata". You did not, and you wanted me to do
your homework. As I did not, now I am your enemy.
> He just cocked it up. That's not a crime in itself. The capital
> offence is the know-it-all attitude of a not-knowing-enough person.
>
> "I can add, for our younger students..."
>
> Please!
Please what? Anyone who has studied Latin knows that there are morphologic
variants that can only be explained as stylistic preferences.
> If I'm wrong-headed, let him show it through the careful use of words.
You are as stubborn as a mule, as you demonstrated in AUE when you asked,
starting several threads, about the when-relative-clauses.
--
Javi, professional liar.
Javi
> ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert Stonehouse) wrote in message
> news:<4018b29f...@news.cityscape.co.uk>...
>> On the one hand, a proverb can do the job for which (so far as I can
>> see) a translation was requested. But the two words 'Occasio calvata'
>> ('Opportunity having been made bald') on their own are not enough to
>> convey the idea of 'taking time by the forelock'. The Marlowe example
>> shows it plainly
>
> I think the most favourable interpretation is that
> "calva occasio" is elliptical. It might be similar
> to what occurs from time to time in English, e.g.,
> "pot, kettle, black" as a kind of compressed proverb.
What you call "compressed proverbs" are no problem for clever people. I
understand that it is a problem for you. My condolences.
> It remains to be seen whether "calva occasio" was ever
> used that way. Many examples of its use in situ have
> been given. I have yet to see a single example, apart
> from the one that occurs in Javi's message, where the
> words occur as a stand-alone saying.
You want us to do your homework. I do not feel like.
rolleston
> Wrong. Dead wrong.
Here's Larry Trask's earlier reply to you:
Wrong. Dead wrong.
Familiar :) Go on, use your own words, I dare you!
> Google for "ocasion" and "calva". You will find more than
> two thousand hits.
ocasion =/= occasio. Trask again:
I don't normally respond to gratuitous insults, but I'll make an
exception here. Javi, may I suggest that you stop pretending that
English is the same language as Latin and learn some English grammar?
Now you're pretending Spanish is the same language as Latin!
<supposed example links snipped>
You clearly haven't understood what I wrote. I asked
for "3 or 4 examples of the words "calva(ta) occasio"
being used proverbially *in isolation*". Only one of
your examples approaches that. Even there, the words
are not used in isolation.
I haven't even mentioned the fact that your "proverb"
is "occasio calvata", not "occasio calva". Perhaps
you want to change your mind about that now?
> verum est quod legitur
> fronte capillata
> sed plerumque sequitur
> occasio calvata"
>
> any clever person would have wonder what "quod legitur" meant,
> and would have google for "fronte capillata".
But only an idiot would have written "google" and "wonder".
You're assuming things again. Be careful: you may get it wrong again.
Actually, I'm glad you reproduced "verum ... calvata".
NB: what is said is not just "occasio calvata". It's
the other stuff that completes the proverb.
> You did not, and you wanted me to do
> your homework. As I did not, now I am your enemy.
Good. I like an enemy I can beat.
R.
rolleston
> What you call "compressed proverbs" are no problem for clever people.
From your earlier reply to me:
You seem clever.
Thankyou! I have to say I don't fully trust your judgement.
Your previous sentence ended this way: "draw your conclusions
and act consecuently".
> You want us to do your homework. I do not feel like.
"jelly"?
R.
John Briggs
prefer "Post Occasio calva est" to "Occasio calvata"?
--
John Briggs
rolleston
> I've lost track of what is actually the point at issue.
> Is it that you prefer "Post Occasio calva est" to "Occasio calvata"?
I'm almost losing track myself. I would prefer "post ...",
but the full expansion would be better. My original point
was merely that "occasio calvata" is not a translation
of "seize the opportunity". I'm prepared to be persuaded
otherwise, but I'm far from convinced by any counterargument
produced so far. I would welcome any comments from you either
for or against my claim. If I'm shown to be wrong and the truth
is illuminated, well, that's just fine.
R.
rolleston
> ... but I am feeling a bit tired of doing your homework.
Btw: It is not up to me to justify your
feeble effort. The burden of proof is on you.
R.
John Briggs
I've found "Posthac occasio calva":
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/mottoes2.html
The "Occasio calvata" form seems only to be found in CB 16, but the
association with Fortuna anticipates the Emblem Books.
--
John Briggs
rolleston
> The "Occasio calvata" form seems only to be found in CB 16, but the
> association with Fortuna anticipates the Emblem Books.
Thanks for the info. The nearest thing I've seen to a
"proverb" occurs in a text that Javi dug up:
Nil vitiorum expers: foetent maioribus illa,
Quae voto maiore petuntur, Caeca Venus,
caeca est Fortuna, Occasio calva,
Et lusca est lippa Voluptas.
Admittedly it is "calva" again. The "caeca est Fortuna" bit
is suggestive, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based
on this one example. A proverb is more than the frequent
co-occurrence of two words. "calva" may be an epithet
in common use, "occasio calva" may be a commonly used metaphor,
but it does not follow that those two words are a proverb.
Fortune is blind seems more convincing as a proverb because
it is closer to conveying a complete idea, if we can define
such a thing.
I can find an enormous number of examples of the following
[http://members.tripod.com.ar/kocher/latim/adagia_f.htm]
Fronte capillata, post est occasio calva.
I can't find many examples of "occasio calva" used independently.
The above page gives equivalents in a number of languages.
I cannot vouch for its accuracy.
One notable thing in most of the alternative proverbs
is the presence of some other words that help to complete
the sense: "hold ... before ...", "au front", "par derriere",
"dinanzi". The apparently Spanish equivalent looks more
compact, but I can't say for sure. Javi's familiarity with it
may have influenced his remarks about "calvata occasio".
My Spanish is very limited.
R.
d3mcki...@gmail.com
> I'm looking for the Latin for:
>
>
> and
> seize the opportunity - ?
>
>
> Paul S.
d3mcki...@gmail.com
Ed Cryer
Ed
Evertjan.
alt.language.latin:
> d3mcki...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 21, 2004 at 3:56:48 PM UTC-7, Paul Stivers wrote:
>>> I'm looking for the Latin for:
>>>
>>> seize the moment - (something like "carpe diem"?)
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> seize the opportunity - ?
>>
>> understood that 'Carpe diem' means 'Seize the day'. I will find my
>> answer elsewhere.
>>
>
> Try "carpe hoc punctum temporis".
what is ment, as "dies" here is not neccessarily "this 24 hours".
>> understood that 'Carpe diem' means 'Seize the day'.
While it is a reasonable translation,
it lacks the Latin meaning of "harvesting/cutting fruit",
and "seize" has a wider meaning than "carpe".
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)