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AVDIT (and AVDIERAT) -- strange idiomatic usage!?
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Jeff Hill
Apr 30, 2021, 2:12:55 PM4/30/21
to
Good-day All,
When reading through CVIVSDAM SCRIBAE VATICANI recently written Latin
introduction to a book on the ancient Etruscan town of HATRIA ETRVSCE
= HADRIA LATINE = Adria ITALICE, I have encountered a, to me, strange
idiom, or, perhaps better, bizarre turn of phrase. He writes, for
example, when discussing the Italian names of the Public Garden and of
the Etruscanmade canal,
SAECVLO XIX PVBLICVS AVDIERAT HORTVS
in the nineteenth century it had listened to <its name as> the Public
Garden
CVM RAMVS RIVI QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
when the branch of the river which now listens to <its name as>
Canalbianco
QVA FLVIT RIVVS QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
where flows the river which now listens to <its name as> Canalbianco
Active tenses where I would have expected passive tenses and
constructions (ID EST: AVDITVS ERAT; AVDITVR).
Can someone confirm that this is a legitimate ancient idiom, and name
or categorise it according to Latin grammar terminology, and suggest a
better way, than my clumsy shuffle, to interpret it, please?
GAVFRIDVS TVMILIVS PENSATOR,
SIDNEIA, AVSTRALIA.
When reading through CVIVSDAM SCRIBAE VATICANI recently written Latin
introduction to a book on the ancient Etruscan town of HATRIA ETRVSCE
= HADRIA LATINE = Adria ITALICE, I have encountered a, to me, strange
idiom, or, perhaps better, bizarre turn of phrase. He writes, for
example, when discussing the Italian names of the Public Garden and of
the Etruscanmade canal,
SAECVLO XIX PVBLICVS AVDIERAT HORTVS
in the nineteenth century it had listened to <its name as> the Public
Garden
CVM RAMVS RIVI QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
when the branch of the river which now listens to <its name as>
Canalbianco
QVA FLVIT RIVVS QVI NVNC Canalbianco AVDIT
where flows the river which now listens to <its name as> Canalbianco
Active tenses where I would have expected passive tenses and
constructions (ID EST: AVDITVS ERAT; AVDITVR).
Can someone confirm that this is a legitimate ancient idiom, and name
or categorise it according to Latin grammar terminology, and suggest a
better way, than my clumsy shuffle, to interpret it, please?
GAVFRIDVS TVMILIVS PENSATOR,
SIDNEIA, AVSTRALIA.
Ed Cryer
Apr 30, 2021, 3:39:29 PM4/30/21
to
literature.
dicto audiens esse alicui; harken to someone's word, be under their
jurisdiction.
ne plebs nobis dicto audiens atque oboediens sit (Livy)
Ed
Jeff Hill
Apr 30, 2021, 5:47:36 PM4/30/21
to
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:39:05 +0100, Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:
>Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
>literature.
Good-day Ed, Yes, but!
And I will study your post, but my initial response is that the SCRIBA
VATICANVS writes his idiom as CASVS NOMINATIVVS + AVDIO, not as CASVS
FATIVVS + AVDIO.
wrote:
>Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
>literature.
And I will study your post, but my initial response is that the SCRIBA
VATICANVS writes his idiom as CASVS NOMINATIVVS + AVDIO, not as CASVS
FATIVVS + AVDIO.
Jeff Hill
Apr 30, 2021, 10:32:30 PM4/30/21
to
>Yes. There's a regular idiom of audire + dative all over classical
>literature.
>dicto audiens esse alicui; harken to someone's word, be under their
>jurisdiction.
>ne plebs nobis dicto audiens atque oboediens sit (Livy)
Good-day Ed, More, somewhat damned critical, information.
>literature.
>dicto audiens esse alicui; harken to someone's word, be under their
>jurisdiction.
>ne plebs nobis dicto audiens atque oboediens sit (Livy)
The "nominative cases" governed in some way by the verb AVDIT include
not only PVBLICVS HORTVS, but also the Italian nominative
"Canalbianco".
Jeff Hill,
Sydney.
Ed Cryer
May 1, 2021, 4:42:44 AM5/1/21
to
language in which English “is a tributary of” was rendered by “obeys” or
“submits to”.
OK, fresh start.
It quite obviously means “is known as”. And yes, I’ve found classical
examples of the usage; audire + nom.
E.g. rexque paterque Audisti coram {Horace}
--
Ed
Jeff Hill
May 1, 2021, 10:01:44 AM5/1/21
to
On Sat, 1 May 2021 09:42:42 +0100, Ed Cryer <ecry...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>It quite obviously means “is known as”. And yes, I’ve found classical
>examples of the usage; audire + nom.
>E.g. rexque paterque Audisti coram {Horace}
Good-day Ed, I use my own devilish idiom, "I am having a devil of a
time interpreting and translating the Latin idiom into about the same
number of English words which reflect in some way that Latin idiom".
Horatius's use of it is, more reasonably, in the second person. My
exposure to it is always in the third person.
The Vatican scribe warns the reader somewhere that he will be using a
wideranging assemblage of wordforms drawn from simple university Latin
and from classical Latin, but the appearance of such a gem amongst a
great deal of dross is still inapproapriate!
I am inevitably urged to try my hand at it: GEMMA AVDIT INTER QVAEDAM
CACATA ALIA.
Thanks for your explanatory note.
Jeff Hill.
Sydney, Australia.
wrote:
>It quite obviously means “is known as”. And yes, I’ve found classical
>examples of the usage; audire + nom.
>E.g. rexque paterque Audisti coram {Horace}
time interpreting and translating the Latin idiom into about the same
number of English words which reflect in some way that Latin idiom".
Horatius's use of it is, more reasonably, in the second person. My
exposure to it is always in the third person.
The Vatican scribe warns the reader somewhere that he will be using a
wideranging assemblage of wordforms drawn from simple university Latin
and from classical Latin, but the appearance of such a gem amongst a
great deal of dross is still inapproapriate!
I am inevitably urged to try my hand at it: GEMMA AVDIT INTER QVAEDAM
CACATA ALIA.
Thanks for your explanatory note.
Jeff Hill.
Sydney, Australia.
Ed Cryer
May 1, 2021, 2:29:22 PM5/1/21
to
translating some Vatican scribe, who writes half Neo-Latin and half
classical Latin, and only about Etruscan sites in Italy? It sounds
rather like a convoluted twist of reality that Stephen King could knit
into a best-seller.
Ed
Jeff Hill
May 1, 2021, 3:12:58 PM5/1/21
to
On Sat, 1 May 2021 19:28:50 +0100, Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:
>You're playing the Aussie stereotype, Jeff. But WTF are you doing
>translating some Vatican scribe, who writes half Neo-Latin and half
>classical Latin, and only about Etruscan sites in Italy? It sounds
>rather like a convoluted twist of reality that Stephen King could knit
>into a best-seller.
>
>Ed
Good-day Ed, Although I know it is a rhetorical question, I will take
the opportunity to speak to it
At a time when the universal language was Latin the Germans started to
put together the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM LATINARVM and the CORPVS
INSCRIPTIONVM GRAECARVM and the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM ETRVSCARVM. For
one hundred and fifty years various scholars have added more
folio-sized FASCICVLI to the already large bulk of the bodies, written
always in university-level or lower Latin, nothing fancy, easy to
comprehend, and easily comprehended by any archaeologist or similar
who has done a few years of Latin. Imagine the damned chaos, or,
better, the sterile imbecility and spectacular futility, of writing a
part in Russian or in Polish or in Nigerian or in Arabic or in
Chinese, illegible to almost everyone on the planet (that is, prior to
google translate in recent years).
Whereas most educated Westerners know their Latin, and any Italian kid
can get the geist of a Latin sentence, and, in my case, it is just an
easy language to pick up.
Now, in the case of the volumes of the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM
ETRVSCARVM, no scholar has ever lived long enough to contribute more
than one or two (there are fourteen or fifteen). I would bet my house
that no one, besides me, has ever read them from cover to cover, with
sufficient attention to spot errors and wonder about an idiom. There
are one hundred and sixty prefaces to the Etruscan cities (um, dirty
little towns and filthy villages surrounded by cemeteries, that is)
well known to us who read Horatius and Livius -- TARQVINIA, CLVSIVM,
CAERE, FIDENAE, HADRIA, SPINA, VEII, VOLSINII, SVANA, TVSCANA, and on
and on and on. No scholar until recent years has had the benefit of
word processors and PDF documents and website sources and online
journals.
Anything lacking, I supply, Hundreds of articles on individual
inscriptions, thousands of images.
I have almost finished translating the lot into English -- many
thousands of densely printed pages -- and bits which are in German or
Italian or French or Norwegian or Swedish I am translating into Latin
and "publishing" on my plenissimvm FTP site.
Having learned Latin long ago, and having read every classical author,
and having spent forever plugging the holes in the fragmentary ones
such as Festus and all the poets in Nonius (those damaged manuscripts
which you mentioned in one of your posts), and having retired, I
looked around for something to do with my Latin, something I could
contribute to pure science. Something I could travel to Italy and
Germany and the British Library for, to reasearch in the national
libraries and museums.
And here we are. I have less than two years' work to go on the CIE. I
read the CIL for relaxation.
Jeff Hill,
Sydney, Australia.
wrote:
>You're playing the Aussie stereotype, Jeff. But WTF are you doing
>translating some Vatican scribe, who writes half Neo-Latin and half
>classical Latin, and only about Etruscan sites in Italy? It sounds
>rather like a convoluted twist of reality that Stephen King could knit
>into a best-seller.
>
>Ed
the opportunity to speak to it
At a time when the universal language was Latin the Germans started to
put together the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM LATINARVM and the CORPVS
INSCRIPTIONVM GRAECARVM and the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM ETRVSCARVM. For
one hundred and fifty years various scholars have added more
folio-sized FASCICVLI to the already large bulk of the bodies, written
always in university-level or lower Latin, nothing fancy, easy to
comprehend, and easily comprehended by any archaeologist or similar
who has done a few years of Latin. Imagine the damned chaos, or,
better, the sterile imbecility and spectacular futility, of writing a
part in Russian or in Polish or in Nigerian or in Arabic or in
Chinese, illegible to almost everyone on the planet (that is, prior to
google translate in recent years).
Whereas most educated Westerners know their Latin, and any Italian kid
can get the geist of a Latin sentence, and, in my case, it is just an
easy language to pick up.
Now, in the case of the volumes of the CORPVS INSCRIPTIONVM
ETRVSCARVM, no scholar has ever lived long enough to contribute more
than one or two (there are fourteen or fifteen). I would bet my house
that no one, besides me, has ever read them from cover to cover, with
sufficient attention to spot errors and wonder about an idiom. There
are one hundred and sixty prefaces to the Etruscan cities (um, dirty
little towns and filthy villages surrounded by cemeteries, that is)
well known to us who read Horatius and Livius -- TARQVINIA, CLVSIVM,
CAERE, FIDENAE, HADRIA, SPINA, VEII, VOLSINII, SVANA, TVSCANA, and on
and on and on. No scholar until recent years has had the benefit of
word processors and PDF documents and website sources and online
journals.
Anything lacking, I supply, Hundreds of articles on individual
inscriptions, thousands of images.
I have almost finished translating the lot into English -- many
thousands of densely printed pages -- and bits which are in German or
Italian or French or Norwegian or Swedish I am translating into Latin
and "publishing" on my plenissimvm FTP site.
Having learned Latin long ago, and having read every classical author,
and having spent forever plugging the holes in the fragmentary ones
such as Festus and all the poets in Nonius (those damaged manuscripts
which you mentioned in one of your posts), and having retired, I
looked around for something to do with my Latin, something I could
contribute to pure science. Something I could travel to Italy and
Germany and the British Library for, to reasearch in the national
libraries and museums.
And here we are. I have less than two years' work to go on the CIE. I
read the CIL for relaxation.
Jeff Hill,
Sydney, Australia.
Ed Cryer
May 2, 2021, 4:48:46 AM5/2/21
to
take a finals paper in basic German. That was the lingua franca of science
at the time. I suppose it’s now English.
In the early days of the Net English was de rigueur, but in recent years
(especially since the swing away from political liberalism) I’ve noticed
an immense increase in foreign languages all over the place.
Latin ain’t sexy no more. It’s several years since I saw a request for a
translation into Latin of some motto or maxim in this NG.
Keep slogging along. It’ll win you a place in heaven. (;-
--
Ed
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