Cicero or Kikero?
Walter Fisher
one of you learned and erudite persons can help me resolve a quandary:
I learned in school that Cicero is pronounced with soft "c"s. My wife
maintains that, according to some Latin grammarians, Cicero should be
pronounced with hard cs, like in Kikero.
I suppose it is impossible to determine how the Romans really pronounced
"Cicero". Would anybody venture a guess?? Are there any reliable linguistic
guides regarding the pronunciation of Latin words?
If this question has been beaten do death in this group, my apologies.
--
Walter Fisher
dum vivimus, vivamus
www.rationality.net
e-mails: Delete x in return address
-
Robert Stonehouse
>My Latin is too rusty to provide meaningful input to this group. But, maybe
>one of you learned and erudite persons can help me resolve a quandary:
>
>I learned in school that Cicero is pronounced with soft "c"s. My wife
>maintains that, according to some Latin grammarians, Cicero should be
>pronounced with hard cs, like in Kikero.
>
>I suppose it is impossible to determine how the Romans really pronounced
>"Cicero". Would anybody venture a guess?? Are there any reliable linguistic
>guides regarding the pronunciation of Latin words?
>
>If this question has been beaten do death in this group, my apologies.
They said Kikero - it comes out that way when transliterated into
Greek, as in Plutarch's life of Cicero. But when speaking English,
we say Scissero.
ew...@bcs.org.uk
mchenry
in the Greek. The Etruscan alphabet is very similar to the archaic Euboean
Greek alphabet, and gamma is here represented by C. That's why from the
Etruscan period on, the name's Gaius and Gnaeus are abbreviated as C. and
Cn. respectively. G came later to the language, and through some linguistic
changes, C took on the sound of Greek K. The difference between G and C/K
is a matter of voicing. The vocal folds vibrate in the production of G, but
not in that of C/K.
The classical pronunciation of Cicero is Kikero. 'Sisero' is the common
pronunciation adopted by English speakers when discussing Cicero in English
(I don't know if other speakers do this; I'd suspect the French). It's very
much like saying See-zur for Caesar (KAI-sar), Played-o for Plato:n
(PLAH-tone), or SOCK-ruh-tease for Socrate:s (saw-KRAH-tace).
Sturtevant's "The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin" is an excellent book.
Others may point you to Sydney's "Vox Latina," but I haven't read it yet.
cheers,
-dennis
"Walter Fisher" <w...@xsan.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RzQH5.13261$46.1...@typhoon.san.rr.com...
Caesar
pronounced "Si say ron." It's odd how the French keep the "n" while the
English just use the pure nominative form. There's a third way of
pronouncing it: the continental or ecclesiastical pronunciation
(Chi-che-ro), which I personally prefer and accord more importance than the
restored system because firstly, it has more historical merit since it's the
pronunciation that was "traded down" to us, and secondly because I find it
more beautiful.
"mchenry" <mch...@student.umass.edu> a écrit dans le message news:
39f04052$1...@oit.umass.edu...
Walter Fisher
> pronunciation adopted by English speakers when discussing Cicero in
English
Curiously enough, I learned Latin in Germany. There, too, it is pronounced
with a soft c.
--
Walter Fisher
dum vivimus, vivamus
The happy iconoclast: www.rationality.net
e-mails: Delete x in return address
-
mchenry <mch...@student.umass.edu> wrote in message
news:39f04052$1...@oit.umass.edu...
> The letter C occupies the same place in the Roman alphabet that gamma does
> in the Greek. The Etruscan alphabet is very similar to the archaic
Euboean
> Greek alphabet, and gamma is here represented by C. That's why from the
> Etruscan period on, the name's Gaius and Gnaeus are abbreviated as C. and
> Cn. respectively. G came later to the language, and through some
linguistic
> changes, C took on the sound of Greek K. The difference between G and C/K
> is a matter of voicing. The vocal folds vibrate in the production of G,
but
> not in that of C/K.
>
> The classical pronunciation of Cicero is Kikero. 'Sisero' is the common
> pronunciation adopted by English speakers when discussing Cicero in
English
> (I don't know if other speakers do this; I'd suspect the French). It's
very
> much like saying See-zur for Caesar (KAI-sar), Played-o for Plato:n
> (PLAH-tone), or SOCK-ruh-tease for Socrate:s (saw-KRAH-tace).
>
> Sturtevant's "The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin" is an excellent book.
> Others may point you to Sydney's "Vox Latina," but I haven't read it yet.
>
> cheers,
> -dennis
>
>
> "Walter Fisher" <w...@xsan.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:RzQH5.13261$46.1...@typhoon.san.rr.com...
Stark
used to hearing it pronounced 'seltic' but my latin professor says 'keltic'.
What you have been saying about the relationship between 'g' and 'c', I would
guess that 'seltic' isn't the right way to say it. I guess it is somehow part
of the word Gaul?
Thanks,
Denise
Walter Fisher wrote:
--
http://home.earthlink.net/~star2fire/
http://homepages.go.com/~star_2_fire/
I report all spam!
J J Korzeniowski
Stark <star...@earthstink.net> wrote in message
news:39F06A38...@earthstink.net...
> Do the rules given in answer to this question also apply to 'celtic'? I
am
> used to hearing it pronounced 'seltic' but my latin professor says
'keltic'.
> What you have been saying about the relationship between 'g' and 'c', I
would
> guess that 'seltic' isn't the right way to say it. I guess it is somehow
part
> of the word Gaul?
> Thanks,
> Denise
>
> Walter Fisher wrote:
>
Pete
<mch...@student.umass.edu> wrote:
>The letter C occupies the same place in the Roman alphabet that gamma does
>in the Greek. G came later to the language, and through some linguistic
>changes, C took on the sound of Greek K.
Are you sure? I learned at school that the Roman C was identical to
the Greek kappa (K). This is the first time I heard anything about it
being the same as the Greek gamma.
Pete.
Aloisius Italicus
"Walter Fisher" <w...@xsan.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:RzQH5.13261$46.1...@typhoon.san.rr.com...
The real pronounce was "Kikero".
The pronounce with soft *c* is always
used here in Italy ; it is the result of what
we call *Medioeval Church pronounciation*
and involves other pronounciations like
*ti* , *ce*, *ae* ,*oe* etc...
We use to refer to *real* pronounce as *Restituta*
that i think is preferred in Germany.
Bye!
Gino Aluisius Italicus
*Astra tenent vitae, mihi est frangere mores*
mchenry
news:39f0888b...@news.brabant.chello.nl...
>
> Are you sure? I learned at school that the Roman C was identical to
> the Greek kappa (K). This is the first time I heard anything about it
> being the same as the Greek gamma.
>
> Pete.
Positive. Roman C was originally sounded as G, but changed over time (hence
C. for Gaius).
-dennis
Pete
<mch...@student.umass.edu> wrote:
Roman C was originally sounded as G, but changed over time (hence
>C. for Gaius).
>
>-dennis
>
Yes. That sounds logical. Thank you.
Pete.
mchenry
news:39F0F5EE...@earthlink.net...
> Sorry, but this is quite wrong. The symbol C originally served for both
> the k-sound and the g-sound in Latin because in Etruscan, the difference
> (if it existed) was not linguistically significant--rather like the
> difference between F and V once was in English (hence `knife',
> `knives').
<snip>
> If you are in Amherst, find Prof. Kitchell and check all this with him.
> Tell him I sent you.
>
> Ed Menes
I wouldn't say I was all that wrong. I mentioned that the difference
between G and K is a matter of voice (the same as the difference between F
and V) which explains the ambiguity. I'm thankful for the information you
added---I didn't know that the symbol stood for both voiced and voiceless
velar mutes in Etruscan and early Latin. So then I should have said that C
did double duty until G came on the scene?
I actually work for Dr. Kitchell, but if I asked him about Etruscan he'd
roll his eyes, tell me I need to get out more, and then point me in the
direction of Rex Wallace. He likes to tell this story about Professor
Wallace running into his office with book in hand exclaiming, "I knew it!
The Hittites were notorius for this!" Something about verb stems, I think.
-dennis
Edwin P. Menes
the k-sound and the g-sound in Latin because in Etruscan, the difference
(if it existed) was not linguistically significant--rather like the
difference between F and V once was in English (hence `knife',
`knives').
The position of the symbol in the Greek alphabet was indeed that of
gamma, but that does not vouch for the sound it signified in Etruscan.
You can see the same phenomenon in comparing Phoenician with Greek
symbols. Phoenician had three sibilants, Greek only one, but the
symbols get used for other (similar) sounds.
This was fine in the early stages of the use of writing, when the
ability to read and write was not widespread. When it became important,
the sounds were symbolically differentiated by putting a bar across the
lower crescent end of C. C > G.
But Latin orthography was conservative in certain traditional areas:
law, religion, and names, for example. `Lis' (law case) continued to be
spelled `stlis' after the pronunciation changed. `Ara' (altar)
continued to be spelled `asa' in religious documents, when other words
confirm that intervocalic s had become r. And C and Cn remain the
abbreviations for Gaius and Gnaeus though they had (on the evidence)
never been pronounced with an initial k.
One can do a check in historical linguistics. `Gigno' (to take one
example) has cognates in other IE languages which suggest that the
original sound was G. `Capio' on the other hand has cognates which
suggest that the original sound was K. It is not impossible that the
two sounds would merge over time. It is not impossible that the one
sound would reemerge as two sounds. What is well-nigh impossible is
that the two new sounds would have exactly the same distribution as the
two sounds before the merger.
Remember that we are dealing with a writing system, not a phonetic
transcription of speech. English uses 26 symbols for 40-45 sounds
(depending on dialect) and is pretty inefficient (city, case, child--all
c's, for example, but `gh' signifiying different sounds in through,
cough, and hiccough). English representation was once closer to actual
pronunciation (`knight' really was pronounced KNIXT). So, in our own
history we have a symbol doing double or triple duty and orthography
remaining constant as the pronunciation changed.
Edwin P. Menes
alphabet was further adapted into Latin, the symbol C did double duty.
I left this step out.
Also, by the symbol X, intended the sound of `ch' in `loch' or `Bach',
not `ks'. In trying to avoid confusion inherent in ASCII phonetic
transcription for those who do not know it, I created it anew.
Ed Menes
Caligula
>Positive. Roman C was originally sounded as G, but changed over time (hence
>C. for Gaius).
In fact, in old time, before classical latin, the sound [k] was wroten
with three letters c, k and q. But in same time C was also used to
write the sound G.
For the sound [k] they wrote C before "i" and "e", k before "a" and
consonants ( Kalendae, Kaeso, liktor, sakros...) and q before "o" and
"u". But quickly letter C took the leadership, "k" disappeared and q
was conservated in the sound "qu" in qualis, quis, quot, aqua...
C is derivated from gamma and in biginning sounded like [k] and [g]
and when Latins wanted to end with ambiguity they put a little line to
get the letter G.
--
Caligula.
Nil igitur mors est ad nos neque pertinet hilum.
mchenry
news:1b42vssg80o19tpgg...@4ax.com...
> mchenry scripsit :
>
> >Positive. Roman C was originally sounded as G, but changed over time
(hence
> >C. for Gaius).
>
I shouldn't have been so 'positive.' Both you and Professor Menes are right
in correcting me on this. At least I was partially correct.
thanks,
-d
T. Nowak
> > The classical pronunciation of Cicero is Kikero. 'Sisero' is the
common
> > pronunciation adopted by English speakers when discussing Cicero in
> English
>
> Curiously enough, I learned Latin in Germany. There, too, it is
pronounced
> with a soft c.
I learn Latin in Poland. We pronounce 'c' in Cicero like 'ts', but in many
other cases, like in 'cum' we say 'k'. BTW, there is similar strange
thing: I should say 'ae' & 'oe' like in 'cat' - does anybody knows why?
and why 'quo' we read like 'kfo'?
Tomasz [tohmash]
--
.-============-===========-.
| Tomasz Nowak |
| nowa...@poczta.onet.pl |
`-============-===========-`
R!$ht@
> other cases, like in 'cum' we say 'k'. BTW, there is similar strange
> thing: I should say 'ae' & 'oe' like in 'cat' - does anybody knows why?
> and why 'quo' we read like 'kfo'?
> Tomasz [tohmash]
From what I have learnt, c is pronounced [c] when it precedes either 'i' or
'e' vowels. I other cases it's sound is [k] 'caro,' 'cornu,' 'cum'. As for
the diphtongs you mentioned every 'oe', 'ae' should be pronounced [e],
except for those derived from Greek. Like aegrotus, aloe etc. Why? Because
although Latin is 'dead' people seem to make things easier. In ancient Latin
all diphtongs were pronounced [ae] or [oe]... and all c's were [k]s.
Quo? Why [kvo]... then why in English for example we do not say [them] or in
French etoile is pronounced [etual]? It's a matter of custom.
Hope it helped.
andre...@gmail.com
B. T. Raven
> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
>
or 7th century, depending on locality and influence of linguistic
substratum and monasticism. For example Ireland may have preserved
classical pronunciation longer than the city of Rome did.
Non-classical variants are Sisero, Chichero, Tsitsero, and maybe others.
This happens to the pronunciation of 'c' only before front vowels and
diphthongs. As far as I know 'solosseum' never occurred.
Eduardus
Ed Cryer
> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
>
particularly Greek, of which many contemporary books and documents survive.
And it's always Κικέρων
Ed
Will Parsons
> On 7/31/2017 08:25, andre...@gmail.com wrote:
>> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
>>
>
> Kikero was the republican and imperial pronunciation until the 5th, 6th,
> or 7th century, depending on locality and influence of linguistic
> substratum and monasticism. For example Ireland may have preserved
> classical pronunciation longer than the city of Rome did.
>
> Non-classical variants are Sisero, Chichero, Tsitsero, and maybe others.
> This happens to the pronunciation of 'c' only before front vowels and
> diphthongs. As far as I know 'solosseum' never occurred.
Will
John W Kennedy
> On Monday, 31 Jul 2017 11:55 AM -0400, B. T. Raven wrote:
>> On 7/31/2017 08:25, andre...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
>>>
>>
>> Kikero was the republican and imperial pronunciation until the 5th, 6th,
>> or 7th century, depending on locality and influence of linguistic
>> substratum and monasticism. For example Ireland may have preserved
>> classical pronunciation longer than the city of Rome did.
>>
>> Non-classical variants are Sisero, Chichero, Tsitsero, and maybe others.
>
> I'll bet Thithero for (Iberian) Spanish.
>> This happens to the pronunciation of 'c' only before front vowels and
>> diphthongs. As far as I know 'solosseum' never occurred.
>
--
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Evertjan.
alt.language.latin:
I remember a graffiti in Pompei with: "Sesar" for Caesar "Kaisar",
while in Greek it was [and is?] 'Kaisar'.
So the early vulgar slang of Pompei predated the centuries later complete
conversion of the 's' pronounciation of the c[+ e/i].
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
John W Kennedy
> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
They all make me sick-ero.”
—“The Student Prince”, American operatta, 1924
Ed Cryer
Gallias caesar subegit, nicomedes caesarem, ecce caesar nunc triumphat
qui subegit gallias. Nicomedes non triumphat, qui subegit caesarem.
(Caesar vanquished the Gauls, Nicomedes Caesar, Caesar who vanquished
the Gauls now triumphs. Nicomedes does not triumph, who vanquished Caesar.)
Ed
Markus Loch
>
> ...... For example Ireland may have preserved
>
linguistically never romanized.
Gruss
Markus
Will Parsons
> On 7/31/17 5:16 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>> On Monday, 31 Jul 2017 11:55 AM -0400, B. T. Raven wrote:
>>> On 7/31/2017 08:25, andre...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
>>>>
>>>
>>> Kikero was the republican and imperial pronunciation until the 5th, 6th,
>>> or 7th century, depending on locality and influence of linguistic
>>> substratum and monasticism. For example Ireland may have preserved
>>> classical pronunciation longer than the city of Rome did.
>>>
>>> Non-classical variants are Sisero, Chichero, Tsitsero, and maybe others.
>>
>> I'll bet Thithero for (Iberian) Spanish.
>
> Perhaps, but that’s a 16th-century development.
into the modern era.
--
Will
Will Parsons
> Evertjan. wrote:
>> "B. T. Raven" <btr...@nihilo.net> wrote on 31 Jul 2017 in
>> alt.language.latin:
>> I remember a graffiti in Pompei with: "Sesar" for Caesar "Kaisar",
>> while in Greek it was [and is?] 'Kaisar'.
referred to Caesar. If you think differently, please provide a
reference.
>> So the early vulgar slang of Pompei predated the centuries later complete
>> conversion of the 's' pronounciation of the c[+ e/i].
https://tinyurl.com/yamuzsvk
--
Will
John W Kennedy
John W Kennedy
Will Parsons
> On 8/1/17 7:22 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>> On Monday, 31 Jul 2017 5:33 PM -0400, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 7/31/17 5:16 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 31 Jul 2017 11:55 AM -0400, B. T. Raven wrote:
>>>>> On 7/31/2017 08:25, andre...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> When I was in gymnasium they were prety serious about learning Latin my teacher would say it is pronounced like kikero and thats why germans say keiser because it was pronounced like kaesar not Caesar latin C was our k so thats why you say Colosseum not solosseum
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kikero was the republican and imperial pronunciation until the 5th, 6th,
>>>>> or 7th century, depending on locality and influence of linguistic
>>>>> substratum and monasticism. For example Ireland may have preserved
>>>>> classical pronunciation longer than the city of Rome did.
>>>>>
>>>>> Non-classical variants are Sisero, Chichero, Tsitsero, and maybe others.
>>>>
>>>> I'll bet Thithero for (Iberian) Spanish.
>>>
>>> Perhaps, but that’s a 16th-century development.
>>
>> Possibly, but I'll bet the Spanish national pronunciation lasted well
>> into the modern era.
>
> The 16th century /is/ the modern era.
replaced this new-fangled "pronounce Latin as Caesar and Cicero did"
fad.
--
Will
Will Parsons
of what I'd written. Make the obvious corrections.
--
Will
Evertjan.
alt.language.latin:
> On Tuesday, 1 Aug 2017 7:00 AM -0400, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Evertjan. wrote:
>>> "B. T. Raven" <btr...@nihilo.net> wrote on 31 Jul 2017 in
>>> alt.language.latin:
> ...
>>> However,
>>> I remember a graffiti in Pompei with: "Sesar" for Caesar "Kaisar",
>>> while in Greek it was [and is?] 'Kaisar'.
>
> "Sesar" may be in the graffiti, but I doubt *extremely* that it
> referred to Caesar.
> If you think differently,
Methinks doubts are imperative in the search for truth,
and I never would think it to be extreme.
> please provide a reference.
I gave the reference, I saw a b/w-picture in a book some 60 years ago.
The best I can find now on the web, builds on Sesar 1,
but does not seem applicable:
<https://youtu.be/ArdXq-hV3TY>
>>> So the early vulgar slang of Pompei predated the centuries later
>>> complete conversion of the 's' pronounciation of the c[+ e/i].
>
> Very unlikely. We discussed this back in 2008 - see
> https://tinyurl.com/yamuzsvk
Markus Loch
> On 8/1/17 3:13 PM, Markus Loch wrote:
>> Am 31.07.2017 um 17:55 schrieb B. T. Raven:
>>>
>>
>>> ...... For example Ireland may have preserved classical pronunciation
>>> longer than the city of Rome did.
>>>
>>
>> Ireland was never conquered by the roman empire and
>> linguistically never romanized.
>
> ...until St. Patrick.
>
Gruss
Markus
Will Parsons
> drop all other cases, in our case it's "Cicerón" (yes, with the "th-"
> like c), from "Cicerone(m)".
I think you have misunderstood the question - it's not how the
historical person _Cicero_ is referred to in *Spanish*, but how the
name "Cicero" was traditionally[1] pronounced in Spain when speaking
*Latin*. These are two completely different things.
> However, some words we inherited in the nominativ as well (since for a
> long time Iberian Romance had a two case system - straight and oblique,
> from nominative and accusative respectively), and "cicero" (the noun
> for "chickpea", not the cognomen) is preserved as "chícharo" (bean).
Yes, but that it is a matter for Romance/Spanish historical
linguistics, not a matter for *Latin* proper.
[1] *Traditionally* - I'm sure the contemporary methods of teaching
Classical Latin pronunciation in Spain are very likely to be similar
to those employed in other countries, i.e., to teach a reconstructed
pronunciation, and therefore [ˈkikɛroː].
--
Will