How to pronounce Cicero
Walter E.
How can we possibly know if the c's are soft or hard?
--
Walter
Smile and the world smiles with you
The Happy Iconoclast: www.rationality.net
Edward Casey
"Walter E." <we...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:98j6a.139396$x9.33...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> Most of us pronounce Cicero with soft c's.
>
> How can we possibly know if the c's are soft or hard?
Sisero in English and Kikerrrro in Latin according to the paleoorthoepicists. Also all the c's in Cicero's works were pronounced as k's.
Eduardus
Johannes Patruus
> Most of us pronounce Cicero with soft c's.
>
> How can we possibly know if the c's are soft or hard?
For a previous discussion of this question in this NG,
please see: http://tinyurl.com/6b7y
Johannes
Evertjan.
>> Most of us pronounce Cicero with soft c's.
>>
>> How can we possibly know if the c's are soft or hard?
>
> For a previous discussion of this question in this NG,
> please see: http://tinyurl.com/6b7y
Around Cicero's time there probably was a beginning of a change in
pronouncing the C before an i or an e as an s.
Caesar is transliterated to Kaisar, Keizer [= emperor] in the Germanic
languages, but in Pompei, a 100 years later written, an [adolescent?] mural
grafitti is found with "Sesar"
Probably Cicero himself would have said "KiKero" (little pea),
but the "vulgar" plebs perhaps would have said: "SiSero".
It could have been another dialect taking over because of an influx of
people,or a gradual pronuncation process.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Evertjan.
> Probably Cicero himself would have said "KiKero" (little pea),
> but the "vulgar" plebs perhaps would have said: "SiSero".
I remember now having written about this before in
news:humanities.classics:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?
selm=Xns921565CE22CBDeejj99%40194.109.6.74>
Edward Casey
"Evertjan." <exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote in message news:Xns932C72BE...@194.109.133.29...
> Johannes Patruus wrote on 24 feb 2003 in alt.language.latin:
> >> Most of us pronounce Cicero with soft c's.
> >>
> >> How can we possibly know if the c's are soft or hard?
> >
> > For a previous discussion of this question in this NG,
> > please see: http://tinyurl.com/6b7y
>
> Around Cicero's time there probably was a beginning of a change in
> pronouncing the C before an i or an e as an s.
>
Closer to Cicero's time than to ours but most likely this change didn't take place until the 5th, 6th, or 7th century.
> Caesar is transliterated to Kaisar, Keizer [= emperor] in the Germanic
> languages, but in Pompei, a 100 years later written, an [adolescent?] mural
> grafitti is found with "Sesar"
>
The Kaiser pronunciation is good evidence of the tenacity of the velar sound. The Pompeii guy might have had a lithp.
> Probably Cicero himself would have said "KiKero" (little pea),
> but the "vulgar" plebs perhaps would have said: "SiSero".
>
> It could have been another dialect taking over because of an influx of
> people,or a gradual pronuncation process.
If there were such a difference between an elite and plebeian pronunciation of this consonant, it wouldn't have occurred until the Renaissance. Sisero is really an English pronunciation (maybe Dutch too) corresponding to the Italian Chichero[English spelling of Italian palatal]. Maybe it was concocted by the 16th century anti-Papishes to cut off all possibility of communication with the continent. The eastern European version of this consonant is as in Tsitsero.
Eduardus
Evertjan.
> Sisero is really an English pronunciation (maybe Dutch too)
> corresponding to the Italian Chichero[English spelling of Italian
> palatal].
What about the French? Surely they say "6 0"?
> The Pompeii guy might have had a lithp.
No, I don't think so, Eduardus
Evertjan.
> What about the French? Surely they say "6 0"?
A bit off topic, but the Asterix translations of caesar are:
French: Jules César
Afrikaans: Julius Ceasar
Alsatian: Schül Caesar
Arabic: Yulyus Qaisar
Bable: Xuliu Cesar
Bern: Jellöusöbmarin
Brazilian: Júlio César
Catalan: Juli Cèsar
Corsican: Ghiugliu Cesaru
Danish: Julius Cæsar
Dutch: Julius Caesar
English(UK): Julius Caesar
Esperanto: Julio Cezaro
Estonian: Julius Caesar
Finnish: Julius Caesar
Frisian: Snellecatrine
Galician: Xulio César
Gaelic: Iulius Cèasar
German: Julius Cäsar
Greek(anc): Ioulios Kaisar
Greek(mod): Ioulios Kaisar
Hebrew: Yulius Keissar
Hungarian: Julius Caesar
Icelandic: Júlíus Sesar
Indonesian: Julius Caesar
Italian: Giulio Cesare
Latin: Iulius Caesar
Luxembourgish: Julius Cäsar
Norwegian: Julius Cæsar
Polish: Juliusz Cezar
Portuguese: Júlio César
Rheato-Roman: Julius Cesar
Rumanian: Iolius Caesar
Serbian: Julije Cezar
Slovak: Julius Cezar
Spanish: Julio César
Swedish: Julius Caesar
Welsh: Iwl Cesar
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/2650/asterix.htm>
Edwin Menes
shapes. I can easily believe ae > e for the period, but ke > se would
have had to have been done by a non-Italian. I don't know of any
examples of Oscan showing this change, and it doesn't occur in any
modern Italian dialect south of the Po.
Likewise, in general in historical change, it is not unusual for [ke] to
become either [se] or [che], but for [se] to become [che] would be very
strange. [she] yes. [che] no.
Finally, Italian and Rumanian share ke > che. The transalpine dialects
all show ke > se. This indicates separate development.
PM Eoghan
be pronounced with a silent 'e'. You could pronounce it correctly as "fort",
but you would sound like a pompous ass. Same goes for Kikero.
PM Eoghan
Evertjan.
> Cicero *should* be pronounced with hard C's.
> but you would sound like a pompous ass. Same
> goes for Kikero.
Not if you recite a Latin text aloud. It would be silly to say:
"SiSero Kellam videt" (cicero cellam videt)
Edward Casey
"PM Eoghan" <rexc...@aol.comHATESPAM> wrote in message news:20030226010529...@mb-ba.aol.com...
"Forte" is a loan word into English from either Italian or French (fuerte in Spanish). It seems to be a bare feminine adjective standing in for some noun (side, point, suit, suite(sweet?). If you are borrowing it from French you could say "fort" ("for" if it's modifying a masculine noun) and "fortay" if you're getting it from Italian. Pronunciation is a ticklish business. There people from Fargo North Dakota who think that people from Oxford, England sound like pompous asses, and versa vice (vickeh) but they are all wrong because they do not yet know the history of the world.
Eduardus
.
,
atypus
Njean1943
Michael York and am finding some of the pronounciations interesting. York uses
hard C's and soft 'V's for the lesser historical characters, but uses the soft
C for Caesar. Haven't come to Cicero yet, but I bet it'll be a soft C as well.
I wonder if there was a discussion prior to the recording about how to handle
it. He also pronounces Julius as the English "J", not the "I".
Jean
Sebastian Hew
> PM Eoghan wrote on 26 feb 2003 in alt.language.latin:
> > Cicero *should* be pronounced with hard C's.
> [..]
> > but you would sound like a pompous ass. Same
> > goes for Kikero.
>
> Not if you recite a Latin text aloud. It would be silly to say:
>
> "SiSero Kellam videt" (cicero cellam videt)
If you said 'sisero', you'd almost certainly say 'sellam'. Nothing wrong
with this, though, if not particularly classical.
Sebastian.
Evertjan
news:3e5e99dd$0$11664$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
We ware not discussing Kikero anymore, but pompous asses.