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Mentifex on the etymology of Latin dative pronouns mihi and tibi.
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A.T. Murray
Nov 14, 2022, 12:19:49 AM11/14/22
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Vos, aeterni ignes! You stars of alt.language.latin!
When the proto-European cavemen were sitting around, tossing bones up into the air in sync with the music of Also Sprach Zarathustra, the original pronouns for "I" and "thou" must have been stand-alone grunts or words kind of Like "Me Tarzan, you Jane."
When Latin came along, there could have been an exchange like,
"Si tu dabis me hic vina Falerna,
ego dabo tu ibi pecuniam"
which would mean, "If you give me-here Falernian wine,
I will give you-there money." But time and laziness shortened
"me hic" to "mihi" and
"tu ibi" to "tibi". Does this amateur etymology seem plausible to you Latin experts?
Meanwhile, I have incorporated the idea into the vocabulary of Latin AI.
Salve atque vale,
Mentifex Quondam Mentifexque Futurus
https://ai.neocities.org/mens.html -- Latin AI Mind
When the proto-European cavemen were sitting around, tossing bones up into the air in sync with the music of Also Sprach Zarathustra, the original pronouns for "I" and "thou" must have been stand-alone grunts or words kind of Like "Me Tarzan, you Jane."
When Latin came along, there could have been an exchange like,
"Si tu dabis me hic vina Falerna,
ego dabo tu ibi pecuniam"
which would mean, "If you give me-here Falernian wine,
I will give you-there money." But time and laziness shortened
"me hic" to "mihi" and
"tu ibi" to "tibi". Does this amateur etymology seem plausible to you Latin experts?
Meanwhile, I have incorporated the idea into the vocabulary of Latin AI.
Salve atque vale,
Mentifex Quondam Mentifexque Futurus
https://ai.neocities.org/mens.html -- Latin AI Mind
Ed Cryer
Nov 14, 2022, 1:33:50 PM11/14/22
to
I suppose we can add "nobis" and "vobis" (contracted vos ibi) as well as
"sibi".
I've searched the whole Classical Latin DBs for words ending in "ihi"
and found only one; mihi.
I suppose standard etymology would point out the relationship between
labial B and fricative H, and find a connection. And then take us to the
realms of how spoken language adopts solutions to add clarity and avoid
misunderstanding. And then claim that it was strictly within Etruscan
and Latin that these sounds emerged.
Does anybody know better? Something from Indo-European?
Ed
Ed Cryer
Nov 14, 2022, 2:15:13 PM11/14/22
to
I got a myriad of "mihi"s; plus the occasional "philosophi" and
"triumphi". But those latter were pronounced "fi".
Oh and a few "hi omnes" and "hi pauci".
Ed
A.T. Murray
Nov 15, 2022, 3:09:12 AM11/15/22
to
On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-8, Ed Cryer wrote:
> A.T. Murray wrote:
> > Vos, aeterni ignes! You stars of alt.language.latin!
> >
> > When the proto-European cavemen were sitting around, tossing bones up into the air in sync with the music of Also Sprach Zarathustra, the original pronouns for "I" and "thou" must have been stand-alone grunts or words kind of Like "Me Tarzan, you Jane."
> >
> > When Latin came along, there could have been an exchange like,
> > "Si tu dabis me hic vina Falerna,
> > ego dabo tu ibi pecuniam"
> >
> > which would mean, "If you give me-here Falernian wine,
> > I will give you-there money." But time and laziness shortened
> > "me hic" to "mihi" and
> > "tu ibi" to "tibi". Does this amateur etymology seem plausible to you Latin experts?
> >
> > Meanwhile, I have incorporated the idea into the vocabulary of Latin AI.
> >
> > Salve atque vale,
> >
> > Mentifex Quondam Mentifexque Futurus
> >
> > https://ai.neocities.org/mens.html -- Latin AI Mind
> Cute! And challenging.
Thanks for such positive reactions.
> A.T. Murray wrote:
> > Vos, aeterni ignes! You stars of alt.language.latin!
> >
> > When the proto-European cavemen were sitting around, tossing bones up into the air in sync with the music of Also Sprach Zarathustra, the original pronouns for "I" and "thou" must have been stand-alone grunts or words kind of Like "Me Tarzan, you Jane."
> >
> > When Latin came along, there could have been an exchange like,
> > "Si tu dabis me hic vina Falerna,
> > ego dabo tu ibi pecuniam"
> >
> > which would mean, "If you give me-here Falernian wine,
> > I will give you-there money." But time and laziness shortened
> > "me hic" to "mihi" and
> > "tu ibi" to "tibi". Does this amateur etymology seem plausible to you Latin experts?
> >
> > Meanwhile, I have incorporated the idea into the vocabulary of Latin AI.
> >
> > Salve atque vale,
> >
> > Mentifex Quondam Mentifexque Futurus
> >
> > https://ai.neocities.org/mens.html -- Latin AI Mind
> Cute! And challenging.
> I suppose we can add "nobis" and "vobis" (contracted vos ibi) as well as
> "sibi".
My initial post upthread was on the idea of how cases and declension evolved.
> "sibi".
Once there was "vobis", it could have moved retrogressively to "nobis" :-)
>
> I've searched the whole Classical Latin DBs for words ending in "ihi"
> and found only one; mihi.
>
> I suppose standard etymology would point out the relationship between
> labial B and fricative H, and find a connection. And then take us to the
> realms of how spoken language adopts solutions to add clarity and avoid
> misunderstanding. And then claim that it was strictly within Etruscan
> and Latin that these sounds emerged.
>
> Does anybody know better? Something from Indo-European?
>
> Ed
In recent years I have begun noticing really odd things about the four or five languages in which I consider myself fluent: English, German, Latin and Russian.
> I've searched the whole Classical Latin DBs for words ending in "ihi"
> and found only one; mihi.
>
> I suppose standard etymology would point out the relationship between
> labial B and fricative H, and find a connection. And then take us to the
> realms of how spoken language adopts solutions to add clarity and avoid
> misunderstanding. And then claim that it was strictly within Etruscan
> and Latin that these sounds emerged.
>
> Does anybody know better? Something from Indo-European?
>
> Ed
A few months ago it occurred to me that Latin and German may share use of the letter "R" for genitive plural.
Latin genitive plural masculine often ends in "-orum", as in "deorum" or "horum" or "puerorum."
German plural genitive endings also make use of "R", as in:
"das Leben der Menschen" -- the life of the human beings,
where "der" in German means "of the".
In German "guter Leute" means "of good people," again using "R" for genitive plural.
About two days ago I started using
https://ai.neocities.org/mens.html
as the URL of my Latin AI Mind or "Mens Latina" for it to be taken seriously.
In the mindboot vocabulary section I embedded my new theory about "mihi" and "tibi".
Time will tell if this idea gains any traction among classicists.
Bye for now.
Arthur (Mentifex)
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