help with Carmina Burana
Simon Pugh
Carmina Burana no. 158 "Vere dulci mediante"
There are a couple of bits that I am having trouble with, I have a
Penguin translation, but it is so loose that it doesn't really help.
The first is: Illuc veni, *fato dante.*
Literally something like with fate giving? Perhaps by chance or as fate
would have it?
The second is: Ve, ve tibi! Tamen ave!
I assume that ve is Vae - alas or woe but again a literal translation
doesn't seem to work - alas alas to you, nevertheless hail.
I wonder if ave is intended more as desire or long for from aveo avere.
Presumably sex is intended here.
For context see:
http://www.areacom.it/arte_cultura/duke/cb_158.htm
I expect this is very elementary stuff but I am not very experienced.
--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for email
Ed Cryer
"Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
news:SpaLzASz...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
She lead me on, your Honour.
At all events, she seems more concerned with keeping it quiet so that they
won't give her trouble at home.
fato dante. Just as you said. "Dare" can mean "permit" or "grant".
As it happened.
Ve, ve tibi! Tamen ave!
Alas, alas to you! Nevertheless farewell.
Damn you, and goodbye.
I doubt there's a conscious double play with something like "lust on", but
maybe.
Ed
Rolleston
>fato dante. Just as you said. "Dare" can mean "permit" or "grant".
>As it happened.
An example of "fato dante" with an object:
Sed iam transmissae steterant
in litore puppes, Fato dante vias:
aderatque vocatus in undis CHRISTUS,
et in ventum tumidos disiecerat hostes.
R.
Simon Pugh
<e...@5.Kent.co.uk> writes
Thank you, it seems so simple when you do it :-)
I think I prefer the poem in Latin to the Penguin version.
John Briggs
> In message <ce9660$n4u$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, Ed Cryer
> <e...@5.Kent.co.uk> writes
>>
>> "Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:SpaLzASz...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
>>> I wonder if anyone can help, I have been reading one of the poems in
>>> Carmina Burana no. 158 "Vere dulci mediante"
>>>
>>> There are a couple of bits that I am having trouble with, I have a
>>> Penguin translation, but it is so loose that it doesn't really help.
>>>
>>> The first is: Illuc veni, *fato dante.*
>>> Literally something like with fate giving? Perhaps by chance or as fate
>>> would have it?
>>>
>>> The second is: Ve, ve tibi! Tamen ave!
>>> I assume that ve is Vae - alas or woe but again a literal translation
>>> doesn't seem to work - alas alas to you, nevertheless hail.
>>> I wonder if ave is intended more as desire or long for from aveo avere.
>>>
>>> Presumably sex is intended here.
>>>
>>> For context see:
>>> http://www.areacom.it/arte_cultura/duke/cb_158.htm
>>>
>>> I expect this is very elementary stuff but I am not very experienced.
>>>
>> She lead me on, your Honour.
>>
>> At all events, she seems more concerned with keeping it quiet so that
>> they won't give her trouble at home.
>>
>> fato dante. Just as you said. "Dare" can mean "permit" or "grant".
>> As it happened.
>>
>> Ve, ve tibi! Tamen ave!
>> Alas, alas to you! Nevertheless farewell.
>> Damn you, and goodbye.
>> I doubt there's a conscious double play with something like "lust on",
>> but maybe.
>
>
> I think I prefer the poem in Latin to the Penguin version.
Where did you get the Latin text? AFAIK there isn't a decent Latin edition
readily available.
--
John Briggs
Simon Pugh
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes
>Simon Pugh wrote:
<Snip>
>> I think I prefer the poem in Latin to the Penguin version.
>
>Where did you get the Latin text? AFAIK there isn't a decent Latin edition
>readily available.
I don't think there is, but there is some of it at the URL I gave in my
initial post. I started off with a few examples from a book on medieval
Latin.
Our university library has this: (which I haven't looked at yet)
Carmina burana. Latin & German. Carmina burana : Lieder der Vaganten /
lateinisch und deutsch nach Ludwig Laistner ; herausgegeben von Eberhard
Brost. Heidelberg : L. Schneider, 1961. 274 p ; 17
I suppose it might be available on the second hand market.
John Briggs
> In message <Cm8Oc.668$P77...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes
>> Simon Pugh wrote:
> <Snip>
>>> I think I prefer the poem in Latin to the Penguin version.
>>
>> Where did you get the Latin text? AFAIK there isn't a decent Latin
>> edition readily available.
>
> I don't think there is, but there is some of it at the URL I gave in my
> initial post. I started off with a few examples from a book on medieval
> Latin.
>
Thanks - I missed the URL - but that site tries to install a dialler, which
I am not too keen on.
> Our university library has this: (which I haven't looked at yet)
>
> Carmina burana. Latin & German. Carmina burana : Lieder der Vaganten /
> lateinisch und deutsch nach Ludwig Laistner ; herausgegeben von Eberhard
> Brost. Heidelberg : L. Schneider, 1961. 274 p ; 17
>
> I suppose it might be available on the second hand market.
Yes, that's the W. Bulst edition in the Penguin book's bibliography. I
meant an English edition - if I was going for a German one I would go for
the Carl Fischer version.
--
John Briggs
Ed Cryer
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:KndOc.981$P77...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
http://tinyurl.com/6z3c9
Ed
Simon Pugh
>Simon Pugh wrote:
>> In message <Cm8Oc.668$P77...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
>> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes
>>> Simon Pugh wrote:
>> <Snip>
>>>> I think I prefer the poem in Latin to the Penguin version.
>>>
>>> Where did you get the Latin text? AFAIK there isn't a decent Latin
>>> edition readily available.
>>
>> I don't think there is, but there is some of it at the URL I gave in my
>> initial post. I started off with a few examples from a book on medieval
>> Latin.
>>
>
>Thanks - I missed the URL - but that site tries to install a dialler, which
>I am not too keen on.
I didn't notice it trying to install a dialer, it just plays annoying
music.
>
>> Our university library has this: (which I haven't looked at yet)
>>
>> Carmina burana. Latin & German. Carmina burana : Lieder der Vaganten /
>> lateinisch und deutsch nach Ludwig Laistner ; herausgegeben von Eberhard
>> Brost. Heidelberg : L. Schneider, 1961. 274 p ; 17
>>
>> I suppose it might be available on the second hand market.
>
>Yes, that's the W. Bulst edition in the Penguin book's bibliography. I
>meant an English edition - if I was going for a German one I would go for
>the Carl Fischer version.
Yes there is a need for a good new dual language addition in English,
perhaps a gap in the market.
Simon Pugh
<e...@5.Kent.co.uk> writes
<snip>
>> Yes, that's the W. Bulst edition in the Penguin book's bibliography. I
>> meant an English edition - if I was going for a German one I would go for
>> the Carl Fischer version.
>> --
>> John Briggs
>>
>>
>The Bibliotheca Augustana has them online.
>http://tinyurl.com/6z3c9
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>
Ed Cryer
What I did notice, though, were some strong examples of how English is
infiltrating (improving???, destroying???) modern Italian.
"Ritorna alla Home". "Vai al sitemap java".
I don't have any correspondents in Italy, but in Spain English is now so
cool that teenagers go around singing English and American pop songs at the
top of their voice; without any idea at all what they're about. It's just
cool, or should I say "chic"; no, definitely "cool"; French is out of
fashion.
Ed
John Briggs
At the moment we only have sixty poems in:
P.G. Walsh
Love Lyrics from the "Carmina Burana"
University of North Carolina Press, 1993
0807844004 (pbk)
(Latin texts, English prose translations)
There is some overlap with:
P.G. Walsh
Thirty Poems from the Carmina Burana
(Reading Medieval & Renaissance Texts)
Reprinted:
Bristol Classical Press, 2004
0704905256
(Latin texts and English commentary, no translations)
--
John Briggs
bob
printed online at the Bibliotheca Augustina.
> http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost13/CarminaBurana/bur_intr.
> html
Bob
Edward Casey
"bob" <por...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BD2FC3CF.8872%por...@ix.netcom.com...
Eduardus Lucio Alteri sal.:
Gratias tibi, Luci, pro illo nexu retiali. Casu nuper alio in foro quidam
dicit se esse certum de pronuntiatu illius "Burana," nempe "Búrana" pro
"Burána." Nomen loci Benediktbeuern apud Graesse non invenio. Tune an
alius quisquam hic pro certo sciat pronuntiationem emendatam huius
vocabuli?
Vale
bob
Lucius Alter Eduardo s.p.d.
Scripseras:
>
> Casu nuper alio in foro quidam
> dicit se esse certum de pronuntiatu illius "Burana," nempe "Búrana" pro
> "Burána." Nomen loci Benediktbeuern apud Graesse non invenio. Tune an
> alius quisquam hic pro certo sciat pronuntiationem emendatam huius
> vocabuli?
Licet situ "Latin Library" saepius utar, at tamen "Bibliotheca Augustana"
tantas nugas dulces (legas, quaeso, nisi etiam lexeris, fabulam "Testamentum
Porcelli"), quae lectoribus omnis generis placeant, feliciter et doctissime
conservat ut mihi unquam mirandum sit.
Responsum autem forte, cum librum et auctoritatem tibi commendare nequeam,
quaestioni tuae de numero syllabae penultimae vocis 'Burana' deest, sed hanc
sententiam parvulam nihilominus offeram ad explicationem conandam:
Semper, velut memini, locutionem 'BurAna' audivi quae, ut mihi videtur, est
recta, quoniam plurimis usibus bonis est analoga. Nec Benediktbeuern nec
Beueren, nisi fallor, apud Graessem inveniuntur. Vox enim Buranus - a - um,
ut intellego, ex altera parte (Benedikt)BEUERN (Theodisca forma agglutinata)
quae ab nomine oppidi sit facta, oritur, et titulus "Carmina Burana", anno
DCCCXLVII ex editione Schmelleriana proficiscitur quae, post
saecularizationem monasteriorum Boiorum, a codice 'Latinus' 4660 redacta
erat, qui ab Ordinis Sancti Benedicti monasterio Burano translatus esset in
Bibliothecam Monaciorum.
Benediktbeuern > (Benedikt)beuern > Beueren > Bura > BurAnus - a - um cui
nomini adiectivo littera vocalis <a> inter litteras consonantes <r> et <n>
mihi natura videtur longa, propterea quod nobis sunt formae similes quae
considerentur exemplave fontesve ad imitandas:
Tolosa > TolosAna;
Roma > RomAna;
Bantia > BantIna;
Alexandria > AlexandrIna;
Mantua > MantuAna;
Fregellae > FregellAna;
Neapolis > NeapolitAna;
Numidia > NumidiAna;
Capua > CapuAna.
Si plus dare hac de re nequeam, fac ignoscas: in libro numerum syllabae
nunquam aspexi, atque nomen oppidi Beueren et appositum Buranus a lexico
Abbatis Ducangi tantopere absunt ut memoria comparationeque pro fontibus
fidam.
Cura ut valeas.