Latin verb "to miaow"?

Michael Rolfe

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May 21, 2003, 5:19:26 PM5/21/03

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The Latin verb "to miaow," or meow (make a noise like a cat) is curiously
elusive. Can anyone help?

I learn that the Ancient Romans didn't keep cats as pets so much as ferrets,
and so forth, to keep down the vermin (sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?),
but they must have known cats as surely as Marc Antony knew Cleopatra.

Catiline

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May 21, 2003, 6:07:09 PM5/21/03

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Smith's Smaller English-Latin Dictionary suggests, without real
conviction, "queror."

The Romans like onomatopoetic words like "mugo" which I always translate
as "go moo." So something approximating the cat's sound, like "mew" or
"miaow" should be appropriate, but I can't find anything obvious in
Lewis & Short:

Mutio, murmuro, etc: indicate a deep tone, often powerful
Murrio: squeak, as a mouse
Musso: speak softly
--
To reply, remove "nospam." from the e-mail address.

Matthew Montchalin

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May 21, 2003, 6:19:33 PM5/21/03

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And what about purr? It's a sound that is unique to the cat family,
be it domestic cat or lion. I don't believe I have heard of any
other animals being able to purr. Does the letter 'p' of purr
correspond to the letter 'm' in Latin murmur (or mugio, mugo,
whichever)?

There used to be some scientific debate as to whether the big cats could
purr, but then I have met someone that was trapped underneath a lion that
had jumped on top of him, and which spent about an hour purring with him
before it got up and went away. He was hired to read gas meters, but he
hadn't noticed the warning about a cat being inside the compound.

Richard Sere

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May 21, 2003, 6:50:14 PM5/21/03

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in article Pine.LNX.4.44.030521...@lab.oregonvos.net,
Matthew Montchalin at mmon...@OregonVOS.net wrote on 5/21/03 5:19 PM:

> And what about purr? It's a sound that is unique to the cat family,
> be it domestic cat or lion. I don't believe I have heard of any
> other animals being able to purr. Does the letter 'p' of purr
> correspond to the letter 'm' in Latin murmur (or mugio, mugo,
> whichever)?

In Spanish the word for purr is 'ronronear' and in French it's ronronner. I
Italian you have 'ronfare' with the noun 'fusa'.

Klaus Scholl

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May 21, 2003, 6:58:22 PM5/21/03

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--- Recitation Begin ---
meow - 1873, earlier miaow, also miau (1634). Of imitative origin, cf. Fr. miaou, Ger. miauen, Pers. maw, Japanese nya
nya, Ar. nau-nau. In Chinese, miau means "cat."
--- Recitation End ---

The Romans could have used:
- gemere - moan
- canere - sing/sound
- ululare - howl

or, could have used an onomatopoeic Verb lik 'meow':
miuere/niuere

--

purr => fremere (according to Mr. Menges Dictionary)

Greet from the Klaus.

Klaus Scholl

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May 21, 2003, 7:01:29 PM5/21/03

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"Richard Sere" <richar...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:BAF16CD8.2409A%richar...@cox.net...

That leads to the supposable latin Root 'ron' for describing the Purr-Sound.
So, the Verbs are: ronronere (ronronner) or ron-facere (ronfare).

Greet from Klaus.

Klaus Scholl

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May 21, 2003, 7:04:14 PM5/21/03

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Hi.
I found:
ronchisonus - snoring
ronchare - to snore
Ronchus - a Snore
as probably Roots for the ron* Verbs.
The Snore-Sound is evidently very similar to the Purr-Sound,
that could mean the used the Words for Both: Snore-Sound and Purr-Sound.

Greet from the Klaus.

Klaus Scholl

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May 21, 2003, 7:05:38 PM5/21/03

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Could you list up the Words for 'to meow' in several Languages?
Greet from Klaus.

Edward Casey

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May 21, 2003, 7:18:15 PM5/21/03

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"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.030521...@lab.oregonvos.net...

Romans had words for the voices of big cats (rugire, lion; rictare, panther,
etc) but nothing special for housecats. This probably means that their only
knowledge of the animal was from Egypt. Specimens brought back as
curiosities would quickly have gone feral without granaries and mice. The
closest classical word is probably "vagire" or maybe "micêre" if that's
classical. If I needed the word I would either borrow the Italian
"miagolare" or make up something like "miaugire." The purring of cats (sonus
vibrans felium?) might be "rugitulare." "Rugire" in addition to roar is also
rumble.

Eduardus

G. Hargreaves

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May 21, 2003, 9:26:47 PM5/21/03

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Is it true that it was Cleopatra who introduced cats into Rome?
When she left Rome for Alexandria, she simply turned her cats
loose in the streets of Rome?

Geoff H.

Andrew McIntosh

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May 21, 2003, 9:52:35 PM5/21/03

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Actually, the Japanese for "miaow" is "nyao" or "nyan", not "nya nya".

Matthew Montchalin

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May 22, 2003, 5:05:37 AM5/22/03

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Yes, roar.

|rictare, panther, etc)

Hmmm. From the gaping mouth?

|but nothing special for housecats.

Is it possible for the 'p' of English purr to correspond to the 'b'
of Latin barrio? But the Latin barrio is for the trumpeting of
elephants, an apparently distant connection if any. OTOH, balo
(infinitive balare) is the bleating of sheep. Is there any reliable
law for extracting an unvoiced p from a voiced b as it relates to
animal sounds?

|This probably means that their only knowledge of the animal was from
|Egypt.

I'd thought that cats were able to range much farther than Egypt,
even if domesticated?

|Specimens brought back as curiosities would quickly have gone feral
|without granaries and mice.

There was one Scientific American article from 20 years ago that
speculated that cat populations diversified more than dog populations
because - as articles of trade - the more unusual a cat looked, the
more highly in demand it became. The diversification of the cat
population exceeds that which mother nature would otherwise be
responsible for.

|The closest classical word is probably "vagire" or maybe "micęre"

|if that's classical. If I needed the word I would either borrow the
|Italian "miagolare" or make up something like "miaugire." The purring
|of cats (sonus vibrans felium?) might be "rugitulare." "Rugire" in
|addition to roar is also rumble.

It might be more fruitful to look at the shifting of 'b' to 'p'
in words like barrio and balo.

Matthew Montchalin

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May 22, 2003, 5:06:39 AM5/22/03

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On 21 May 2003, Andrew McIntosh wrote:
|Actually, the Japanese for "miaow" is "nyao" or "nyan", not "nya nya".

Okay, so what would 'meow' be in Loglan?

David Monks

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May 22, 2003, 6:23:28 AM5/22/03

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I did once think about calling a cat of mine "Cleopatra", but had second
thoughts. :-)

David
"Michael Rolfe" <mum...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message
news:3ecbe...@news1.mweb.co.za...

Edward Casey

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May 22, 2003, 3:56:04 PM5/22/03

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"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message

news:Pine.LNX.4.44.030522...@lab.oregonvos.net...

[...]

|Romans had words for the voices of big cats (rugire, lion;

Yes, roar.

|rictare, panther, etc)

Hmmm. From the gaping mouth?

I guess. From "ringor = show teeth, snarl."

|but nothing special for housecats.

Is it possible for the 'p' of English purr to correspond to the 'b'
of Latin barrio? But the Latin barrio is for the trumpeting of
elephants, an apparently distant connection if any. OTOH, balo
(infinitive balare) is the bleating of sheep. Is there any reliable
law for extracting an unvoiced p from a voiced b as it relates to
animal sounds?

I suppose anything's possible. It doesn't sound likely that there would be
such a law restricted to animal cries.

I

|This probably means that their only knowledge of the animal was from
|Egypt.

I'd thought that cats were able to range much farther than Egypt,
even if domesticated?

Probably not, they breed with small wildcats more easily than dogs breed
with wolves.

|Specimens brought back as curiosities would quickly have gone feral
|without granaries and mice.

There was one Scientific American article from 20 years ago that
speculated that cat populations diversified more than dog populations
because - as articles of trade - the more unusual a cat looked, the
more highly in demand it became. The diversification of the cat
population exceeds that which mother nature would otherwise be
responsible for.

But there is far greater variety in the gross anatomy of dogs than cats
(Chihuahuas, Great danes, Pekinese, etc.) This is probably because dogs have
been domesticated for 40,000 or 50,000 years longer than cats.

|The closest classical word is probably "vagire" or maybe "micêre"

|if that's classical. If I needed the word I would either borrow the
|Italian "miagolare" or make up something like "miaugire." The purring
|of cats (sonus vibrans felium?) might be "rugitulare." "Rugire" in
|addition to roar is also rumble.

It might be more fruitful to look at the shifting of 'b' to 'p'
in words like barrio and balo.

But this is mere unverifiable (and unfalsifiable) theory. After learning
from Klaus that Menge has "fremere" for "purr" I would now suggest
"fremitulare" since "fremere" is just too loud for purring.

Eduardus

Bob LeChevalier

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May 22, 2003, 6:05:35 PM5/22/03

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In Lojban, the word might be "zoi lat. miau lat. and the verb of what
a cat does would be
me zoi lat miau lat bacru

or you can borrow from cat-language: mlatrmiau

If you think that what your cat says has different phonemic
transliteration in Lojban letters, the first option allows whatever
form you wish.

lojbab

Matthew Montchalin

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May 23, 2003, 6:36:10 AM5/23/03

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On Thu, 22 May 2003, Klaus Scholl wrote:
|purr => fremere (according to Mr. Menges Dictionary)

Yes, that word seems to be particularly apt. And FWIW, the Oxford
Latin Dictionary connects fremere with OHG breman (to roar) and the
Greek verb bremO. The Latin fremor - a low humming noise - seems
to be right on the money, expecially if made ex gutture

Radek

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May 23, 2003, 12:02:31 PM5/23/03

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"Michael Rolfe" <mum...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message news:<3ecbe...@news1.mweb.co.za>...

Komensky says in his Orbis Pictus:

Ante omnia debes discere simplices Sonos, ex quibus constat Sermo
humanus: quos Animalia sciunt formare, et tua Lingua scit imitari, et
tua Manus potest pingere. Alphabetum vivum et vocale habes hic.

Cornix cornicatur. a a
Agnus balat. be e e
Cicada stridet. ci ci
Upupa, dicit. du du
Infans ejulat. e e e
Ventus flat fi fi
Anser gingrit. ga ga
Os halat. hah hah
Mus mintrit. i i i
Anas tetrinit. kha kha
Lupus ululat. lu ulu
Urfus murmurat. mum mum
Felis, clamat. nau nau
Auriga, clamat. o o o
Pullus pipit. pi pi
Cuculus cuculat. kuk ku
Canis ringitur. err
Serpens sibilat. si
Graculus, clamat. tae tae
Bubo ululat. u u
Lepus vagit. va
Rana coaxat. coax
Asinus rudit. y y y
Tabanus, dicit. ds ds

Who else should get it right? Looks like the cat simply clamat. Either
the Romans had no verb for miaowing, or it was forgotten by the
1600's.

Radek

Edward Casey

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May 23, 2003, 12:32:02 PM5/23/03

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"Radek" <r_ad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8e808aed.03052...@posting.google.com...

I've heard of catcalls. But then a cat doesn't sound much like a grackle or
a charioteer (what's he doing here?). These generic calls are probably no
more precise than that of the Upupa who dicit du du. For instance Lewis and
Short give clamare to represent even the voices of geese and crickets.

Eduardus

Klaus Scholl

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May 23, 2003, 3:25:58 PM5/23/03

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^^^^^^^^^^ In my Edition Komensky wrote: Alphabethum.

^^^^^^^^ tetrinnit

| > Lupus ululat. lu ulu
| > Urfus murmurat. mum mum

^^^^^^ Ursus

Komensky used dicere and clamare in Situations where
sometimes a more fitting Verb DOES exist,
e.g. Komensky wrote vague 'Tabanus dicit', which was not necessary,
because bombicare exists (to buzz, esp. Bees).

You can also say 'The Bee MAKES bs bs',
but the Sound-Verbs like 'Buzz' imply the Sound.
clamare,canere,dicere, do not.

so far,
Klaus.

Matthew Montchalin

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May 24, 2003, 7:08:09 AM5/24/03

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<snip>

|Who else should get it right? Looks like the cat simply clamat.
|Either the Romans had no verb for miaowing, or it was forgotten
|by the 1600's.

But cats are such expressive animals that they can do SO much
more than cry, just as dogs can do SO much more than bay.

Fremit for purring, sounds good, btw:

Quae quae non fremit feles clamat.

The cat that does not purr, cries.

Matthew Montchalin

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May 24, 2003, 7:09:26 AM5/24/03

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On Fri, 23 May 2003, Klaus Scholl wrote:
|| > Cornix cornicatur. a a
|| > Agnus balat. be e e
|| > Cicada stridet. ci ci
|| > Upupa, dicit. du du
|| > Infans ejulat. e e e
|| > Ventus flat fi fi
|| > Anser gingrit. ga ga
|| > Os halat. hah hah
|| > Mus mintrit. i i i
|| > Anas tetrinit. kha kha
| ^^^^^^^^ tetrinnit
|| > Lupus ululat. lu ulu
|| > Urfus murmurat. mum mum
| ^^^^^^ Ursus

Thanks, I was wondering about that. :)

Radek

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May 26, 2003, 4:54:44 AM5/26/03

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"Edward Casey" <ej...@cpinternet.com> wrote in message news:<vcsjaan...@corp.supernews.com>...

> "Radek" <r_ad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8e808aed.03052...@posting.google.com...

> > Komensky says in his Orbis Pictus:

> >
> > Ante omnia debes discere simplices Sonos, ex quibus constat Sermo
> > humanus: quos Animalia sciunt formare, et tua Lingua scit imitari, et
> > tua Manus potest pingere. Alphabetum vivum et vocale habes hic.

...
> > Upupa, dicit. du du
...

> > Urfus murmurat. mum mum
> > Felis, clamat. nau nau
> > Auriga, clamat. o o o

...

> > Graculus, clamat. tae tae
> > Bubo ululat. u u

...

> > Who else should get it right? Looks like the cat simply clamat. Either
> > the Romans had no verb for miaowing, or it was forgotten by the
> > 1600's.
>

> I've heard of catcalls. But then a cat doesn't sound much like a grackle or
> a charioteer (what's he doing here?).

Obviously shouting o o o.

> These generic calls are probably no
> more precise than that of the Upupa who dicit du du. For instance Lewis and
> Short give clamare to represent even the voices of geese and crickets.

The OED entry is interesting too.
hoopoe [alt. of ME hoop f. OF huppe f. L upupa, imit. of its cry]
So a classical upupa should dicere up up(a). However, Comenius
conceived the text while teaching Latin to Czech kids, where the case
is crystal clear: "Dudek duda du du". Both seem to be inept attempts
at writing down two distinct short sounds.

Radek

P.S. My paperback edition really says "urfus".

Matthew Montchalin

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May 27, 2003, 10:23:02 PM5/27/03

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On 26 May 2003, Radek wrote:
|P.S. My paperback edition really says "urfus".

ah okay, that explains it.

David Monks

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May 28, 2003, 8:01:18 AM5/28/03

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Forgot to say that in the Latin translation of Lewis Carrol's "Through the
Looking Glass", which I'm presently working through, I have yet to see a
word for miaow, but purr is given as murmur.

David

"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message

news:Pine.LNX.4.44.030527...@lab.oregonvos.net...

David Monks

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May 28, 2003, 7:58:14 AM5/28/03

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Can this be a really old print where the Ss appear like Fs in lower case?

David
"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.030527...@lab.oregonvos.net...

Radek

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May 28, 2003, 10:27:01 AM5/28/03

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I think this is how it happened. My edition is just a cheap reprint of
the original text, and the editors may have misread or misscanned the
old style letter.

Radek

"David Monks" <dm...@tiscali.fr> wrote in message news:<bb24nl$n5o$1...@news.tiscali.fr>...

Matthew Montchalin

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May 28, 2003, 6:36:21 PM5/28/03

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On Wed, 28 May 2003, David Monks wrote:
|Can this be a really old print where the Ss appear like Fs in lower case?

That's what my impression was - the lowercase F without the horizontal
stroke in the middle.

LoveCat

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May 29, 2003, 4:39:15 PM5/29/03

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Here you have the sounds for some animals in many languages

http://spanish.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.georgetown.e
du/cball/animals/

--
LoveCat

------------------------------------------------------------
In a cat's eyes all things belong to cats.
-----------------------------------------------------------

"Klaus Scholl" <Kl...@sensualium.cjb.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:bah0n5$dl7$00$1...@news.t-online.com...

Robert FISHER

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May 30, 2003, 9:50:40 AM5/30/03

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LoveCat scripsit:

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> In a cat's eyes all things belong to cats.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>

Feles putat omne felibus esse.

--
Robert FISHER verbum exsum pax Robertus PISCATOR

Matthew Montchalin

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May 30, 2003, 6:45:00 PM5/30/03

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Robert FISHER wrote:
|LoveCat scripsit:
|>
|> ------------------------------------------------------------
|> In a cat's eyes all things belong to cats.
|> -----------------------------------------------------------
|>
|
|Feles putat omne felibus esse.

Certainly, but it is also apt to observe that the very concept
of private property is one that escapes the feline mind.

David Monks

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May 31, 2003, 3:32:35 AM5/31/03

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Ergo feles est felix!

David

"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message

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